Does The Borg actually want to assimilate the UFP?

[sonofccn]

One problem is that humans have moved to thousands of planets by the time the Borg shows up, and destroying the capital will only have a minimal effect on military operations because such a thing will be planned for.

The military chain of command likely will survive undamaged save for the very top portion on Earth itself but we are talking about something far more profound than launching military strikes, which likely would be futile against a Borg cube if any ships were still in the nearby area, or other short term goals. The Federation is a loose confederacy consisting of one hundred and fifty or so "nations" each with its own divergent culture, history and way of doing things. Some had bitter relations with other members in the past, nor are two centuries guarrentee such slights have been forgotten, others like Ardana rather fail to live up to the ideals of the Federation and appeared to have joined from some Economic-Political advantage. The only thing binding them togather would be Earth and humanity which would be destroyed and crippled respectively.

Earth is also not the center of scientific research. It's simply a figurehead.

Earth is the headquarters of Starfleet the offical military arm of the Federation as well the site of President and his cabinet the trans-planatary goverment of the Federation. So much as there is a "Federation goverment" Earth is it.

The Borg can't honestly care about culture given it seemingly does nothing with it. It wants rare materials, data, and samples of technology and life-forms.

Perhaps the experiances which "shape" an individual mind are important to the Borg, adding the distiction of a thinking force to thier collective instead of raw data. perhaps they use organics like CPU's, harnessing them wirelessly togather to achieve ever greater feats in computation. Whatever the reason the Borg do seem to have a need to "assimulate" rather then be satisifed with some blueprints and gene samples.

If the Borg seriously wanted to assimilate Earth they would send more then one Cube at a time from the start. 2 cubes will not strain the Borg's capabilities.

That is not a response to what I asked. You stated the Borg might be afraid of "gods" which appear frequently in the Alpha quadrent/Earth area to which I asked why send any cubes at all then. The stakes are equally as high if you send one ship to assimulate Earth or a dozen, if you anger Q he's going to wipe out you out with a snap of his fingers.

Now to the point you raised I have given my best idea as to why and will only reiterate both Cubes had a high probibility of success. The first one practically did succeed before Data managed to hack them into submission, no defenses were left by that point no hope.

[sonofccn]

The R.N.O.B. tend to just live near or in the UFP, but tend to not be actual members. I believe one such race stopped a Klingon/UFP war because it was getting annoying or something like that.

Organians. The problem is that they and others like the Metrons really don't care for corporeal beings much less the Federation. The Organians indeed watched crew after crew die from an alien virus merely to observe how they would react to it, beyond the Borg directly annoying/threatening them I don't see them lifting a finger for Earth or the Federation.

[Mr. Oragahn]

And would tolerate a few incursions and massacres, until they'd think the Borg need a slap on the hand?[

they may not even be members but protectorates or whatever the UFP expanded into and all around territories of aliens that were ancient and very advanced during TOS by the 24 century these entities may be more interested sitting back and seeing how the naked apes evolve and see the borg as part of that unless they go on a genocidal rampage

I wouldn't call them part of the UFP then, since it implies that when the UFP is attacked, the UFP reacts. Members of the UFP basically saying fuck you is just totally out of character and not UFPish at all, and most likely against a wide range of responsibilities you're liable to once entering the UFP. I'd think of certain automatic clauses about defense. In fact it's not even right. The UFP is one big central authority which has its own fleet.

They're certainly letting the humans maximizing such chances by not assimilating them.

they aren't very intelligent and the Queen even seems to be very egotistical

So that's the explanation? Borg are teh st00pid?

As for most of Lucky's points', it's been clear that they don't care about UFP tech. They don't seem to consider the UFP that important.

they consider homo sapiens to be such a threat that they have tried to stomp them out via multiple means..including a method not tried on other races

Well then, there is a MASSIVE disconnection between their attempts, their will back then, and the means they've given themselves to complete their objective lately.
The only reason they'd not allocate appropriate resources would be because they'd be needed elsewhere.
Hence my fictional plot about them fighting against creatures that blow stars to crate fountains of omega particles which enhance in return the novas. That would surely attract the Borg and make the apes an irrelevant objective then. Plus it would fit with the latest Trek movie. :) Of course it's just not canonical, but there's no good reason then for the Borg not succeeding with decent numbers, unless they're total dorks.

[Mr. Oragahn]

After writing up the OP I remembered this Blog article.

A civilization knows that the Borg will assimilate them eventually. They know that the Borg's goal is to add their biological and technological distinctiveness to the Borg. They come up with a plan. Assemble a ship containing the latest technology. Put on that ship their most advanced computer containing all the collected knowledge they are able to including a complete digital version of their genetic data. Fill the ship with biological samples (blood samples, skin samples, etc..) of all species with in the civilization including a large collection of plant and animal life and make sure that the genetic material is from multiple different beings so that it contains a diverse and more accurate sampling of the genetics. Then send the ship to the Borg.
Would the Borg leave the civilization alone? The Borg were given exactly what they wanted the collected knowledge of the species as well as the biological data of the species which the Borg could be incorporated into the Borg.

In many ways it seems like the UFP has done what the article suggests.

It's quite a ham fisted plot, but it could be very interesting with Section 31 coming up with such a deal. Well, not them, but most of the movie's intrigue would make them be the perfect scapegoat, while the real guys behind that plan may be far more sinister: in the complete databank, they'd have added what would look like erased data, traces going back to an effective prototype weapon which itself would also be related to anti-Borg warfare, a weapon developed by some forces of the Dominion. Such would be an attempt to get the Borg eat the Dominion once and for all, while no such weapon would exist, while hoping at the same time that this move of good faith would definitely protect the UFP. Ta da dum.

Which, the idea, or the fact that the Borg got away with technological and biological data on nearly everything the UFP has in canon?

i didn't mean that the UFP planned it. The Borg gets nearly everything it wants from the UFP in BOBW

This is part of my overall agenda to be extremely generous and drop free dime-a-dozen ideas...

[Mr. Oragahn]

Actually, at one point in VOY Seven stated that assimilating the Kazon would actually detract from the Collective's perfection, indicating that the Borg at least have some standards.
-Mike

Pardon? So a species that gets entirely erased and, at least, brought up to the overall collective's level, now actually bears the potential of lessening the Borg?
How can that be more rubbish?

Oh wait, it's Voyager, of course. A way for this nonsense to actually begin to make sense would require the Kazon species to carry some virus, or have a natural defense system which would really prove problematic to the Borg, and thus by integrating them to the collective, by simple act of calculated averages, bring the overall quality a notch down.

[Lucky]

Actually, at one point in VOY Seven stated that assimilating the Kazon would actually detract from the Collective's perfection, indicating that the Borg at least have some standards.
-Mike

Pardon? So a species that gets entirely erased and, at least, brought up to the overall collective's level, now actually bears the potential of lessening the Borg?
How can that be more rubbish?

Oh wait, it's Voyager, of course. A way for this nonsense to actually begin to make sense would require the Kazon species to carry some virus, or have a natural defense system which would really prove problematic to the Borg, and thus by integrating them to the collective, by simple act of calculated averages, bring the overall quality a notch down.

The Borg has been self contradictory from the start.

[Lucky]

The R.N.O.B. tend to just live near or in the UFP, but tend to not be actual members. I believe one such race stopped a Klingon/UFP war because it was getting annoying or something like that.

Organians. The problem is that they and others like the Metrons really don't care for corporeal beings much less the Federation. The Organians indeed watched crew after crew die from an alien virus merely to observe how they would react to it, beyond the Borg directly annoying/threatening them I don't see them lifting a finger for Earth or the Federation.

But, there are also the Boothbys and Kevins walking around.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Boothby
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Kevin_Uxbridge

The Borg might actually be trying to smoke out such beings for study?

[Lucky]

One problem is that humans have moved to thousands of planets by the time the Borg shows up, and destroying the capital will only have a minimal effect on military operations because such a thing will be planned for.

The military chain of command likely will survive undamaged save for the very top portion on Earth itself but we are talking about something far more profound than launching military strikes, which likely would be futile against a Borg cube if any ships were still in the nearby area, or other short term goals. The Federation is a loose confederacy consisting of one hundred and fifty or so "nations" each with its own divergent culture, history and way of doing things. Some had bitter relations with other members in the past, nor are two centuries guarrentee such slights have been forgotten, others like Ardana rather fail to live up to the ideals of the Federation and appeared to have joined from some Economic-Political advantage. The only thing binding them togather would be Earth and humanity which would be destroyed and crippled respectively.

Earth is also not the center of scientific research. It's simply a figurehead.

Earth is the headquarters of Starfleet the offical military arm of the Federation as well the site of President and his cabinet the trans-planatary goverment of the Federation. So much as there is a "Federation goverment" Earth is it.

The Borg can't honestly care about culture given it seemingly does nothing with it. It wants rare materials, data, and samples of technology and life-forms.

Perhaps the experiances which "shape" an individual mind are important to the Borg, adding the distiction of a thinking force to thier collective instead of raw data. perhaps they use organics like CPU's, harnessing them wirelessly togather to achieve ever greater feats in computation. Whatever the reason the Borg do seem to have a need to "assimulate" rather then be satisifed with some blueprints and gene samples.

If the Borg seriously wanted to assimilate Earth they would send more then one Cube at a time from the start. 2 cubes will not strain the Borg's capabilities.

That is not a response to what I asked. You stated the Borg might be afraid of "gods" which appear frequently in the Alpha quadrent/Earth area to which I asked why send any cubes at all then. The stakes are equally as high if you send one ship to assimulate Earth or a dozen, if you anger Q he's going to wipe out you out with a snap of his fingers.

Now to the point you raised I have given my best idea as to why and will only reiterate both Cubes had a high probibility of success. The first one practically did succeed before Data managed to hack them into submission, no defenses were left by that point no hope.

The UFP was formed to deal with an outside threat, and has existed for so long I would think those problems would be put aside by the time the Borg show up. I've seen nothing to show that the UFP is falling apart from internal conflicts.

Attacking Earth is more a symbolic thing.

Again assimilation is not needed to get drones. The Borg can easily manufacture a drone to what ever specifications it wants to since the UFP could easily do such a thing.

Maybe the Borg wants to force the RNOB to show themselves? perhaps the Borg feels it has gone as far as it can in a corporeal form? It certainly explains the obsession with 8472 who are nearing the point of leaving the mortal coil.

[sonofccn]

The UFP was formed to deal with an outside threat, and has existed for so long I would think those problems would be put aside by the time the Borg show up.

Perhaps but using humans as our template grudges tend to be held over.

I've seen nothing to show that the UFP is falling apart from internal conflicts.

No, nor am I suggesting five minutes after Earth is fragged Andoria invades Vulcan, merely among other things the various races have a history of bickering with each other. That is not a recipe for stability or smooth transition to a new goverment errected Post Earth.

Attacking Earth is more a symbolic thing.

In your opinon. I see it differntly.

Again assimilation is not needed to get drones.

For the Borg it is.

SEVEN: I will be recognised as Borg. A drone, but unlike any I've ever seen.
TUVOK: It appears to be in the foetal stage.
SEVEN: I don't understand. The Borg assimilate. They do not reproduce in this fashion

SEVEN: Yes. Nanoprobes are encoded to utilize any technology they encounter. Once it assimilated the emitter, it began to transform this diagnostic station. When Ensign Mulchaey entered the room, they sampled his DNA.
JANEWAY: Using his genetic code as a template to create a lifeform.

We can spin reasons why all night long but they only increase their numbers by assimulation.

Maybe the Borg wants to force the RNOB to show themselves?

Then they would attack every world of the Federation in overwhelming force to coax the ROBs from hiding and be done with it. No need to pussyfoot with a single cube, there is no lesser risk when facing a ROB with one cube than with twenty.

It certainly explains the obsession with 8472 who are nearing the point of leaving the mortal coil.

Species 8472 were quite physical/solid. perhaps the zenith of biological perfection but still an ant compared to Q or even Gary Mitchell.

[Mr. Oragahn]

SEVEN: I will be recognised as Borg. A drone, but unlike any I've ever seen.
TUVOK: It appears to be in the foetal stage.
SEVEN: I don't understand. The Borg assimilate. They do not reproduce in this fashion.

The first time we saw the Borg, their ship had a section full of drawers with human babies in them. So was that the way of the Borg to take care of any life they'd assimilate from any colony, world or else, starting with babies?

[Mike DiCenso]

In "Q Who?", Riker and the away team did indeed go into a room that had the babies in it. But that was Riker's speculation about what he was seeing going on there. As later explained in VOY, what they likely went into was a maturation chamber as was seen in "Collective" and those babies Riker and company saw were assimilated children like Icheb, Mezoti, Azan, and Rebi.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

In "Q Who?", Riker and the away team did indeed go into a room that had the babies in it. But that was Riker's speculation about what he was seeing going on there. As later explained in VOY, what they likely went into was a maturation chamber as was seen in "Collective" and those babies Riker and company saw were assimilated children like Icheb, Mezoti, Azan, and Rebi.
-Mike

Wait, that's definitely problematic: the Borg desperately need to assimilate other species in order to guaranty a stability and a population growth, since they reject internal reproduction within the collective.
And I thought we couldn't find a cyborg foe dumber than the Strogg somehow!

[Picard]

Maybe they view breeding as unnecessary, since they're doing quite fine without it anyway, and it does not bring new experiences and knowledge in.

[Admiral Breetai]

So that's the explanation? Borg are teh st00pid?

you must be too used to high bred fiction to look upon such a conclusion with such scorn

there are universe out there where that simple answer is the most correct one

The Borg are retards who happen to have a leader who acts more like a scorned cheerleader then a leader

I pity them

Well then, there is a MASSIVE disconnection between their attempts, their will back then, and the means they've given themselves to complete their objective lately.
The only reason they'd not allocate appropriate resources would be because they'd be needed elsewhere.
Hence my fictional plot about them fighting against creatures that blow stars to crate fountains of omega particles which enhance in return the novas. That would surely attract the Borg and make the apes an irrelevant objective then. Plus it would fit with the latest Trek movie. :) Of course it's just not canonical, but there's no good reason then for the Borg not succeeding with decent numbers, unless they're total dorks.

there is this possibility I mean the naked apes have been getting more and more dangerous and to that level since DS9 when they began reviving dead stars and the like

so maybe if the Borg aren't dead from the virus during end game we'll see a serious confrontation in the future

[Mike DiCenso]

In "Q Who?", Riker and the away team did indeed go into a room that had the babies in it. But that was Riker's speculation about what he was seeing going on there. As later explained in VOY, what they likely went into was a maturation chamber as was seen in "Collective" and those babies Riker and company saw were assimilated children like Icheb, Mezoti, Azan, and Rebi.
-Mike

Wait, that's definitely problematic: the Borg desperately need to assimilate other species in order to guaranty a stability and a population growth, since they reject internal reproduction within the collective.
And I thought we couldn't find a cyborg foe dumber than the Strogg somehow!

Well, they're pulling it off somehow since according to "Dark Frontier", the Unicomplex by itself had trillions of drones on it.
-Mike