The UFP vs. The Romulan Star Empire

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Plus, if we actually give 10-20 years of time for both powers to recover, disparity in fleet power would be even greater in favour of Federation. Not only fleet numbers, but also ship-to-ship firepower. Remember that best thing Federation had in TNG was Galaxy class ship, which was large, complicated to build, with loads of science facilities etc. And even then, commander of Romulan D'Deridex class warbird seemed weary, even afraid, of attacking Galaxy class starship head-on in one-on-one battle. I'm even not sure if Picard was aware that Romulans are around. Plus, every time Romulans tried to ambush Enterprise, they had TWO warbirds waiting at very least.

Two warbirds makes sense, even with supprise a 1 v 1 battle could result in casualties so two ships and a voctory without a loss of a single crew member is just good sense.

However, Federation of TNG era had lot of very old ships, with new Galaxy, Nebula and not-so-new but still extremely strong Akira class being best of the fleet. However, these ships were avaliable in miniscule numbers compared to Excelsior class and other outdated ships. And yet, in DS9 Federation managed to slow down and would eventually halt invasion of Klingon Empire, which had much more militarized ships (I think Vor'cha was match for TNG-era Galaxy) and advantage of surprise.

A hull is really just a hull, maybe the newer ships had thicker hulld ect but as far as ablative armour is concerned we know it is a fitable extra and does not need to be part of the initial design. A refitted hull with top of the line tech, warp core ect is really not much less useful than a modern hull apart from being maybe a little smaller, in fact we know that the E-E is actually smaller than the E-D but quite a bit more powerful.

We have seen some new starships, which seem to be much more combat-oriented than previous classes (possible exception being Akira class). Sovereign class, Prometheus class, Defiant class - all of these classes seem to be built for war, with last two being pure warships, and all of these ships are equipped with new technologies developed to counter Borg which additionally increased fighting ability and survivability. Ablative armor, quantum torpedoes, regenerative shields etc. Plus, Defiant and Prometheus class, being warships, are easier to build than standard starships of similar strength. Also, I expect that these new technologies will become more wide-spread as time passes, so in this war majority of Starfleet ships will have at least ablative armor, and maybe quantum torpedoes.

This is the big differance in post DS9 trek, a federation that focused its knowledge not just on giving adequate defensive systems to ships of exploration but a federation that focused the knowledge gained from those explorations and discoveries into making ships purely designed to kick ass.

It is little supprise that the romulans and klingons chose to play nice when you consider that they looked at the federation and saw rough equals to their warships in the feds exploration ships BEFORE the federation decided to beef up. And now suddenly this monster of scientific discovery and technological know how is gonna focus its efforts on making ships and weapons of war.........lol they must have shit a brick..

Imagine the convo...

Klingon 1: "hey you know those fraking geniuses over in the federation of planets who built that cloak that could make a ship fly through solid rock but then decided to not use it due to a treaty and even tell us and the Romulans about it?".

Klingon 2: "Yea lol what a bunch of dicks, clever dicks but OMG!!!...."


Klingon 1: "Well they have decided to focus all their science knowledge and experiance on building warships and military tech"......

Klingon 2: "Oh fuck me".......

[KirkSkyWalker]

Plus, if we actually give 10-20 years of time for both powers to recover, disparity in fleet power would be even greater in favour of Federation. Not only fleet numbers, but also ship-to-ship firepower. Remember that best thing Federation had in TNG was Galaxy class ship, which was large, complicated to build, with loads of science facilities etc. And even then, commander of Romulan D'Deridex class warbird seemed weary, even afraid, of attacking Galaxy class starship head-on in one-on-one battle. I'm even not sure if Picard was aware that Romulans are around. Plus, every time Romulans tried to ambush Enterprise, they had TWO warbirds waiting at very least.

Two warbirds makes sense, even with supprise a 1 v 1 battle could result in casualties so two ships and a voctory without a loss of a single crew member is just good sense.

However, Federation of TNG era had lot of very old ships, with new Galaxy, Nebula and not-so-new but still extremely strong Akira class being best of the fleet. However, these ships were avaliable in miniscule numbers compared to Excelsior class and other outdated ships. And yet, in DS9 Federation managed to slow down and would eventually halt invasion of Klingon Empire, which had much more militarized ships (I think Vor'cha was match for TNG-era Galaxy) and advantage of surprise.

A hull is really just a hull, maybe the newer ships had thicker hulld ect but as far as ablative armour is concerned we know it is a fitable extra and does not need to be part of the initial design. A refitted hull with top of the line tech, warp core ect is really not much less useful than a modern hull apart from being maybe a little smaller, in fact we know that the E-E is actually smaller than the E-D but quite a bit more powerful.

We have seen some new starships, which seem to be much more combat-oriented than previous classes (possible exception being Akira class). Sovereign class, Prometheus class, Defiant class - all of these classes seem to be built for war, with last two being pure warships, and all of these ships are equipped with new technologies developed to counter Borg which additionally increased fighting ability and survivability. Ablative armor, quantum torpedoes, regenerative shields etc. Plus, Defiant and Prometheus class, being warships, are easier to build than standard starships of similar strength. Also, I expect that these new technologies will become more wide-spread as time passes, so in this war majority of Starfleet ships will have at least ablative armor, and maybe quantum torpedoes.

This is the big differance in post DS9 trek, a federation that focused its knowledge not just on giving adequate defensive systems to ships of exploration but a federation that focused the knowledge gained from those explorations and discoveries into making ships purely designed to kick ass.

It is little supprise that the romulans and klingons chose to play nice when you consider that they looked at the federation and saw rough equals to their warships in the feds exploration ships BEFORE the federation decided to beef up. And now suddenly this monster of scientific discovery and technological know how is gonna focus its efforts on making ships and weapons of war.........lol they must have shit a brick..

Imagine the convo...

Klingon 1: "hey you know those fraking geniuses over in the federation of planets who built that cloak that could make a ship fly through solid rock but then decided to not use it due to a treaty and even tell us and the Romulans about it?".

Klingon 2: "Yea lol what a bunch of dicks, clever dicks but OMG!!!...."


Klingon 1: "Well they have decided to focus all their science knowledge and experiance on building warships and military tech"......

Klingon 2: "Oh fuck me".......

Yes, Klingons are SUCH trembling rabbits who shrink from war and fear death in battle.
Let’s not forget that the Romulans were working on the same thing in “The Next Phase.”
The only thing stopping a Romulan-Klingon alliance was their prior falling-out, but if the Federation went to war with either one then they might compromise and re-ally out of necessity.
As for Picard’s revealing the phase-cloak, that was clearly a pansy-pacifist act of treason on his part, and normally would gotten him executed for it, since it’s not his place to question his superiors or make policy-decisions to reveal Starfleet-intelligence to the enemy order to gain their trust! More like SUICIDE-- but such hippie-usurpations all work out just fine, whenever pinko-producers get God-complexes and decide to let captains kick over top-level decisions. Thank goodness that Picard got his comeuppance as his liberal arrogance came full-circle and the Cardassians made him dance by remote-control—“THERE ARE FOUR LIGHTS!”

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Yes, Klingons are SUCH trembling rabbits who shrink from war and fear death in battle.

If a highly advanced culture who's science/exploration ships could match or even defeat my best warships started focusing on developing pure warships and military tech i would be concerned.

[Praeothmin]

As for Picard’s revealing the phase-cloak, that was clearly a pansy-pacifist act of treason on his part, and normally would gotten him executed for it, since it’s not his place to question his superiors or make policy-decisions to reveal Starfleet-intelligence to the enemy order to gain their trust!

Actually, it's Picard's job as a Starfleet Captain to uphold Starfleet law and regulations, and Federation treaties.
So if one such Treaty says the Federation shall not create cloaking devices, then in order for him to show this was not an act condoned by all of Starfleet, and in order to perhaps keep a war from starting, it was his responsability to show what had been done and to show it was the act of a few malcontents acting illegaly.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Shall the canon related topic be split and moved to another forum? :)
Like, I don't know, "Rules of Evidence" for example...

Rules of Evidence... that sounds like a novel's title.

[Praeothmin]

Done:
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... f55#p24157

[KirkSkyWalker]

Yes, Klingons are SUCH trembling rabbits who shrink from war and fear death in battle.

If a highly advanced culture who's science/exploration ships could match or even defeat my best warships started focusing on developing pure warships and military tech i would be concerned.

What part of "it's a good day do die" do you NOT understand?

[KirkSkyWalker]

As for Picard’s revealing the phase-cloak, that was clearly a pansy-pacifist act of treason on his part, and normally would gotten him executed for it, since it’s not his place to question his superiors or make policy-decisions to reveal Starfleet-intelligence to the enemy order to gain their trust!

Where was the evidence that Starfleet wasn't behind it 100%?
If not, then the Admiral's actions would be seditious, but this wasn't the story given; apparently Picard is able to take it upon himself to countermand his superiors based on his own authority-- something which defies all military law and protocol.

[Praeothmin]

The Geneva convention prevents you, as a soldier, to torture a prisoner.
If your superior officer orders you to torture the prisoner, you can decide not to do it, and in the ensuing Court-Martial explain that it was against the Geneva Convention.
The army can only reprimand you for not following orders, and probably discharge you, but they could not dishonorably discharge you because you upheld the law...
Your superior officer, however, can and would face sentencing and perhaps even a dishonorable discharge for ordering such an evil act, contrary to the Convention he is supposed to uphold...

[KirkSkyWalker]

The Geneva convention prevents you, as a soldier, to torture a prisoner.
If your superior officer orders you to torture the prisoner, you can decide not to do it, and in the ensuing Court-Martial explain that it was against the Geneva Convention.
The army can only reprimand you for not following orders, and probably discharge you, but they could not dishonorably discharge you because you upheld the law...

As usual, you make broad leaps of logic between general orders of an intelligence-gathering mission, and manifest war-crimes which immmediately endanger people. And I didn't see PICARD face any court-martial for his rank insubordination, sedition and treason... a captain's executive discretion extends ONLY to the protection of his ship-- NOT the whole Federation and its international relations!
But in typical Marty-Stu fashion, Picard usurps supreme authority, and gets away with anything.

Your superior officer, however, can and would face sentencing and perhaps even a dishonorable discharge for ordering such an evil act, contrary to the Convention he is supposed to uphold...

NOT if the orders came from the TOP.
And since you didn't answer my question, you forfeit the argument-- and admit that Picard DIDN'T have any evidence that Starfleet wasn't 100% behind the Admiral.
So it was pure Marty Stu.
In "The Enterprise Incident," Kirk and Spock were given secret orders to violate the Neutral Zone treaty and steal the Romulan Cloaking Device; by your logic, they should have refused, spilled their guts to the Romulans and betrayed Starfleet to keep the peace- and then turned around and arrested the issuing officers.

And then Picard could have been spared his decision, since the whole Federation would be speaking ROMULAN.
Fortunately, they weren't traitor-pacifists like Picard.

[Praeothmin]

Wow!
Just... Wow!

As usual, you make broad leaps of logic between general orders of an intelligence-gathering mission, and manifest war-crimes which immmediately endanger people. And I didn't see PICARD face any court-martial for his rank insubordination, sedition and treason... a captain's executive discretion extends ONLY to the protection of his ship-- NOT the whole Federation and its international relations!
But in typical Marty-Stu fashion, Picard usurps supreme authority, and gets away with anything.

And as usual, you ignore logic and facts which go against you rinterpretation of events.
The Treaty of Algeron is just like the Geneva Convention:
A treaty signed by two (or more) Governments that promise, nay, pledge, that neither will ever break that treaty, else it be a declaration of War.
Picard believes in justice and truth, and in the Ideals of the Federation, which also promote truth as one of its tenets.
He is facing another Captain who broke this Treaty, and he is facing tha Captain of a Romulan vessel who just witnessed an act of treason in the face of that very Treaty.
The least Picard neede to do was to assure this Captain, who could very well have fired upon Picard's vessel for that Treaty's violation, that this act was not one sanctioned by the Federation, but by a few discontents, a few treasonous men...

NOT if the orders came from the TOP.
And since you didn't answer my question, you forfeit the argument-- and admit that Picard DIDN'T have any evidence that Starfleet wasn't 100% behind the Admiral.

Whether the orders come from the top or not are irrelevant, since these orders violated the Treaty.
And your Kirk example is flawed, since, as you yourself stated, Starfleet Command had told the Captain of the ship it was putting in danger about the nature of the mission since that mission in particular did indeed originate from them...

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Yes, Klingons are SUCH trembling rabbits who shrink from war and fear death in battle.

If a highly advanced culture who's science/exploration ships could match or even defeat my best warships started focusing on developing pure warships and military tech i would be concerned.

What part of "it's a good day do die" do you NOT understand?

I understand all of it, but "it's a good day do die" does not mean we see Klingons acting like lemmings and jumping off the nearest cliff. Several episodes over the years did Klingons no favors at all by making them look like idiots but there is a large differance between how they were some times portrayed by poor script or plot writing and the whole "warrior culture" bit in general.

They plan, spy, compete in military tech just as much as any of the other races if not more it s just that the script writers some times decided to make them look like two dimensional morons just so the starfleet officers could look better.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Seriously, there's a treaty signed by both parties. Not even the highest representative political or military member of the UFP is free of it.

[KirkSkyWalker]

Wow!
Just... Wow!

As usual, you make broad leaps of logic between general orders of an intelligence-gathering mission, and manifest war-crimes which immmediately endanger people. And I didn't see PICARD face any court-martial for his rank insubordination, sedition and treason... a captain's executive discretion extends ONLY to the protection of his ship-- NOT the whole Federation and its international relations!
But in typical Marty-Stu fashion, Picard usurps supreme authority, and gets away with anything.

And as usual, you ignore logic and facts which go against you rinterpretation of events.
The Treaty of Algeron is just like the Geneva Convention:
A treaty signed by two (or more) Governments that promise, nay, pledge, that neither will ever break that treaty, else it be a declaration of War.
Picard believes in justice and truth, and in the Ideals of the Federation, which also promote truth as one of its tenets.
He is facing another Captain who broke this Treaty, and he is facing tha Captain of a Romulan vessel who just witnessed an act of treason in the face of that very Treaty.
The least Picard neede to do was to assure this Captain, who could very well have fired upon Picard's vessel for that Treaty's violation, that this act was not one sanctioned by the Federation, but by a few discontents, a few treasonous men...

NOT if the orders came from the TOP.
And since you didn't answer my question, you forfeit the argument-- and admit that Picard DIDN'T have any evidence that Starfleet wasn't 100% behind the Admiral.

Whether the orders come from the top or not are irrelevant, since these orders violated the Treaty.
And your Kirk example is flawed, since, as you yourself stated, Starfleet Command had told the Captain of the ship it was putting in danger about the nature of the mission since that mission in particular did indeed originate from them...

You can make stuff up all you want, I'm not going to take up a fool's argument.

[KirkSkyWalker]

Seriously, there's a treaty signed by both parties. Not even the highest representative political or military member of the UFP is free of it.

Treaties do NOT give lower officers the right to refuse top-level orders and arrest their CO's. That's not my opinion, it's LAW, and there's no evidence that it had changed for ST.

What's more, the Romulans had engaged in acts of War against the Federation by blasting the asteroid while the E was inside of it, so Picards actions were DEFINITELY treasonous.