Conservation of momentum and Lightsabres blocking Phasers...

[Mr. Oragahn]

As usual, like for most energy weapons, you got to explore the blast route.

A phaser must induce a fast energetic reaction. Of course, this would require a big bang of some sort, and a flash to prove the existence of violent matter heating, generally gas.
I don't know Trek enough, so maybe there are many cases where impacts, when pushing people, do also create a big flash.
The other is a contraction of muscles.
The best is simply a combination of both.

In universe wise.

[l33telboi]

"Exhibits momentum"? What does that mean?

It means that an object shows us that momentum is transferred to it.

Every object has momentum and it cannot decrease or increase without an external force. There are no buts here. It is a fundamental law of nature.

I always do love people who try to play smart by repeating extremely simple physics as if they were something extravagant.

This is a fundamental law in our universe, just like nothing being able to travel faster then light is. It's clearly not in Trek-verse though, since we have seen that law violated there.

What happens on screen is fact. That's all there is to it. It's called soft science fiction for a reason.

[Kane Starkiller]

I always do love people who try to play smart by repeating extremely simple physics as if they were something extravagant.

And I said they were something extravagant where exactly? I explicitly stated it's a fundamental law didn't I? And I am repeating it since you seem incapable of grasping it. If you could you would know that Kirk's hand not moving disproves that it had significant momentum.

This is a fundamental law in our universe, just like nothing being able to travel faster then light is. It's clearly not in Trek-verse though, since we have seen that law violated there.

Yes that law is violated. How does that mean that conservation of momentum is violated? Please show the connection. How can we even calculate anything then? Maybe in Star Trek universe Klingons spontaneously fly through air every now and then? After all if conservation of momentum doesn't apply then your momentum can spontaneously increase by itself so that is entirely possible.

What happens on screen is fact. That's all there is to it. It's called soft science fiction for a reason.

Did I ever said Klingon wasn't thrown back? No one disputed that. What I said was that it couldn't have been due to momentum. That is proven by Kirk's arm not jerking back.

[Praeothmin]

Did I ever said Klingon wasn't thrown back? No one disputed that. What I said was that it couldn't have been due to momentum. That is proven by Kirk's arm not jerking back.

Which brings up an interesting question:
Why did the chicken cross the road... er... What caused the Klingon to get thrown back?
:)

[Kane Starkiller]

Something other than momentum transfer. :)
But seriously I already suggested something analogous to electrical jolt.

[l33telboi]

And I said they were something extravagant where exactly?

The mere fact that you talk about it as if it isn't something that people don't know is enough for me to believe you're under the impression that it's something extravagant.

Yes that law is violated. How does that mean that conservation of momentum is violated? Please show the connection.

We see stuff moving faster then light. Therefore it has to be accepted as possible. We see stuff showing momentum being imparted to the recipient, but not the origin. Therefore it has to be accepted as possble.

There is no grander connection then that. It all comes down to "What's seen on screen is fact, even if that does violate the laws of physics."

How can we even calculate anything then?

If we see a mass accelerated clearly and quantifiable enough to derive figures from the scene, then we can assume phasers are able to impart that much momentum to whatever they shoot at.

You'd have to explain why they don't always impart the same amount of momentum. But i guess that can be chalked up to different settings on the phaser.

Maybe in Star Trek universe Klingons spontaneously fly through air every now and then?

"Maybe in Star Trek universe Klingons spontaneously go faster then light every now and then?"

We don't assume they do it randomly because there is a clear connection between phaser fire and the Klingon flying back. Just like there's a clear connection between a spaceship going faster then light whenever the warp drive is fired up.

Did I ever said Klingon wasn't thrown back? No one disputed that. What I said was that it couldn't have been due to momentum. That is proven by Kirk's arm not jerking back.

Objects can't randomly be re-directed and accelerated at all if they don't get a change in their momentum. Wether this is is the result of a electricity like effect or some explosive effect or whatnot, i don't know. If you'd been paying attention, then you would've noticed that i didn't really dispute your theory either. Electricity i suppose would mean that at least part of the momentum comes from the person themselves due to the muscle spasms.

Of course i can invalidate that theory if i so want. In addition to what Spock said, we've also seen phasers fired on shielded drones and they've been kicked back because of it. Obviously the beam never connected to the drones, so how could they be experiencing muscle spasms? That makes electricity an impossiblity. Not explosive effect though, which would partly explain why the target receives a large dose of momentum but not the origin.

And i have to ask, i know muscles contort when electricity is lead through them. But how are people physically thrown back from electirity? I was under the impression that this is something limited to hollywood movies.

[Kane Starkiller]

The mere fact that you talk about it as if it isn't something that people don't know is enough for me to believe you're under the impression that it's something extravagant.

I don't. I learned about it in high school.

We see stuff moving faster then light. Therefore it has to be accepted as possible. We see stuff showing momentum being imparted to the recipient, but not the origin. Therefore it has to be accepted as possble.

There is no grander connection then that. It all comes down to "What's seen on screen is fact, even if that does violate the laws of physics."

That is your connection? We see one law violated therefore we can arbitrarily declare any of them violated when it suits our purposes?
And you are wrong. We don't see the momentum imparted. We see them being knocked back. There are many explanations as to why. No need to discard physical laws. When we observe a ship moving faster than light then we have no choice but to accept the fact that that particular law has been violated.

If we see a mass accelerated clearly and quantifiable enough to derive figures from the scene, then we can assume phasers are able to impart that much momentum to whatever they shoot at.

Why? Conservation of momentum doesn't apply remember? So maybe the targets just arbitrarily get more momentum.

You'd have to explain why they don't always impart the same amount of momentum. But i guess that can be chalked up to different settings on the phaser.

This has nothing to do with the problem of using calculations all of which are built upon our laws of physics on a universe where you claim all of those laws can be casually discarded.

"Maybe in Star Trek universe Klingons spontaneously go faster then light every now and then?"

We don't assume they do it randomly because there is a clear connection between phaser fire and the Klingon flying back. Just like there's a clear connection between a spaceship going faster then light whenever the warp drive is fired up.

Actually it is theoretically possible to go faster than light by curving space or creating negative mass so the assumption is they found a way around the light speed limitation. This is why we don't use any Newtonian or Einstein's formulas for warp drive. We can't because the thing is not bound by them. You on the other hand want to have your cake and eat it too: discard the conservation of momentum but at the same time use the flying Klingon to claim that phaser beam carries a certain amount of momentum. And to do that you need to assume that Klingon's momentum is carried by the beam in other words you invoke conservation of momentum whenever it suits you.

Of course i can invalidate that theory if i so want. In addition to what Spock said, we've also seen phasers fired on shielded drones and they've been kicked back because of it. Obviously the beam never connected to the drones, so how could they be experiencing muscle spasms? That makes electricity an impossiblity. Not explosive effect though, which would partly explain why the target receives a large dose of momentum but not the origin.

Yes the drones took a step back on occasion. But there are some scenes where they don't react at all like for example when Hawk fired at that drone on the deflector dish. Again a much simpler solution is that some drones decided to take step back rather than assume there is a fundamental law violation.

And i have to ask, i know muscles contort when electricity is lead through them. But how are people physically thrown back from electirity? I was under the impression that this is something limited to hollywood movies.

I don't know the mechanism but I'm pretty sure there were several newspaper articles about people being thrown by high voltage current. Speaking of Holllywood it is precisely the place this mistake is coming from. Remember the Dirty Harry firing his Magnum 44 and sending enemies flying away even while his hand only slightly moves backwards.

[l33telboi]

I don't. I learned about it in high school.

I think most of us did. Which is why i find your arrogant demenour around it quite perplexing.

That is your connection? We see one law violated therefore we can arbitrarily declare any of them violated when it suits our purposes?

There's nothing arbitrary about it. We can only assume a law can be violated if it's actually seen or stated.

We don't see the momentum imparted. We see them being knocked back. There are many explanations as to why. No need to discard physical laws.

When physical objects are moved by something, momentum is imparted, unless the objects make themselves move because of that something.

Why? Conservation of momentum doesn't apply remember? So maybe the targets just arbitrarily get more momentum.

That would be as silly as saying stuff arbitrary goes faster then light. There's a clear connection with the phasers shot and the knockback effect. Just like there's a clear connection between FTL travel and Warp drive.

This has nothing to do with the problem of using calculations all of which are built upon our laws of physics on a universe where you claim all of those laws can be casually discarded.

Not casually, clearly we're dealing with some form of super-funky technology which makes this all possible. The laws of the universe seem to be much like ours, the technology seems to be the catalyst for everything that doesn't follow our laws of physics.

How something is done doesn't matter as much as what is actually being done. And people being thrown back is a clearly measurable event.

Actually it is theoretically possible to go faster than light by curving space or creating negative mass so the assumption is they found a way around the light speed limitation.

Except that this isn't how Star Trek ships are said to travel. And, as far as i can tell, both of those things are purely theoretical.

You on the other hand want to have your cake and eat it too: discard the conservation of momentum but at the same time use the flying Klingon to claim that phaser beam carries a certain amount of momentum.

I don't 'want' to. I have to. Otherwise i would be saying that canonical information is wrong. And i can't do that.

Of course, you'll also note that i previously mentioned explosive effect as a possiblity, which would explain the problem of why momentum is seen on the target but not the origin.

Yes the drones took a step back on occasion. But there are some scenes where they don't react at all like for example when Hawk fired at that drone on the deflector dish.

Yes, this is why i previously mentioned that the differances have to be explained as well. Though at that point in time you didn't think it worth mentioning. Now it apparently is though. How's that for consistancy?

Again a much simpler solution is that some drones decided to take step back rather than assume there is a fundamental law violation.

The drones arbitrarily decide to take a step back whenever they're hit by a beam? Somehow i think that highly speculative reasoning, especially since we have seen other people be knocked back too. Did the Klingon suddenly 'decide' to jump backwards too?

I don't know the mechanism but I'm pretty sure there were several newspaper articles about people being thrown by high voltage current.

Have you ever grabbed something with a massive voltage running through it? You'll be quite stunned at what happens. You jump back from it quite violently, even when talkinga bout relatively low voltages. This is a bodily reaction rather then the voltage throwing you back.

If you close your hand around something with alot of current running through it you're in trouble though, since you can't let go. So when news articles talk about people being thrown back by massive current, it could just mean the person jerking away extremely violently.

Because i have to tell you, i find no way to explain how it would be possible to actually be thrown away from electricity.

Speaking of Holllywood it is precisely the place this mistake is coming from. Remember the Dirty Harry firing his Magnum 44 and sending enemies flying away even while his hand only slightly moves backwards.

Out-of-universe explanations to why this happens don't matter.

[Praeothmin]

Ok, how about this:
We see that whenever there is a Phaser hit, there is an explosion.
What if that explosion creates enough energy to actually impart momentum to the target, just like an elctrical arc would, but with less "visual" effects then an "ordinary" electrical explosion.

The beam itself has no momentum, but the contact point, resulting in an energy release, does.

Does that make any sense?

[l33telboi]

Ok, how about this:
We see that whenever there is a Phaser hit, there is an explosion.

That's what i suggested, explosive effect. Basically, when the beam hits the target, it 'explodes" (for lack of a better word). Thus almost no momentum is seen on the origin, but is seen on the target. This doesn't have to be an omni-directional explosion either, it could be quite directed, which would explain lack of visual explosion.

EDIT: Re-reading what you said though, it seems you suggest that the beam makes the target explode and thus creates the physical punch. Could very well be something that's native to the beam itself, in fact, it'd have to be, seeing the Borg with shields example.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Phaser particles are crammed against the shield, undergo a violent reaction, collapse and boom.

[l33telboi]

Phaser particles are crammed against the shield, undergo a violent reaction, collapse and boom.

Bingo.

[GStone]

I'am not sure I buy that. I do believe in ANH and TESB that there are at least a couple of examples of blaster bolts hitting stormtroopers, which in turn send them sprawling backwards. The one that comes most notably to my mind is when on the Death Star Han and Chewie chases a squad of Stormtroopers. The STs turn on Han when cornered (in the SE and DVD they run into a hanger bay filled with troops and officers), he shoots one of the STs who quite noticably is flung backwards by the force of the hit.
-Mike

In RotS, when Ben and Yoda were fighting troopers on Coruscant, a few were knocked back. Not much, but they were knocked back after they deflected the blaster bolts.

Master Spock wrote:

Actually, there's a very clear momentum-transmitting shot in ST:FC, in which a Borg drone - with no visible muscular twitch - is propelled backwards at a couple meters per second into the vacuum of space. However, phasers never appear to have significant recoil... which does pose problems.

I would have to wonder if the thermal effects of the phaser's particle beam as it disperses through the target's armor/clothing/flesh/bone/whatever is what might be contributing to the "knock back" effect here.
-Mike

Oh, there was an episode of mythbusters that's perfect for this. Initially, during the 'piss on the electricfied fence' show, Adam barely got a jolt from it. But...during the 'ancient battery' myth, they built a replica of The Ark and hooked the same energy generator for the fence into the ark. Adam didn't get the full jolt because when Tory and Scottie touched the idols, the full charge passed to them. Tory, on a scale of 1 to 10 described it as 211. Scottie said it felt like she got punched in the chest. Adam tried it, too, only they tricked him into thinking that they hooked up the string of ancient batteries to the ark. All 3 jolted back, but at most, it was only within a couple inches. Tory and Scottie walked away very quickly from the ark after they got shocked, while they're screaming and grunting in pain. And that electric fence generator was rated at 10,000 volts.

The weird thing is that I found this video of a UC Berkley lecture where this teacher is getting shocked in the hand by electricity of 100,000 volts several times and he isn't getting hurt at all. Seen here:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 0#0h20m30s

Now, my guess would be that the amperage of the fence generator is higher than the class generator. Since one is for security purposes, that would make sense.

[Mike DiCenso]

I'am not talking anymore about an electric type shock, though that may play a contributing role in what we see. I'am talking about the rapid expansion of the material,in this case, flesh and armor, being turned into super-heated gas by the phaser's energy, and propelling the target person backwards.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

As usual, like for most energy weapons, you got to explore the blast route.

A phaser must induce a fast energetic reaction. Of course, this would require a big bang of some sort, and a flash to prove the existence of violent matter heating, generally gas.
I don't know Trek enough, so maybe there are many cases where impacts, when pushing people, do also create a big flash.
The other is a contraction of muscles.
The best is simply a combination of both.

In universe wise.

I seem to have to keep tossing this thread in as a reminder about the various effects seen demonstrated by phasers in modern Trek:

http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=101


The Jem'Hader being hit and knocked backwards by a Cardassian phaser-disruptor rifle bolt's hit, or the exploding Commander Remmick's head examples show very obvious DET thermal effects (sparks, steam, burns, smoke, ect).
-Mike