A Dominion heavy battle cruiser vs the SSD at Endor

[Praeothmin]

I have a very hard time believing that a Super ship the size of an SSD is so weak that a simple A-Wing has the firepower to take down it's shields and Generator at the same time...

Especially since earlier in the battle, we saw a Tie Advanced fire on a Nebulon frigate and not do any damage to it.
To accept what you say, we wouldhave to believe the SSD is much, much weaker then a Nebulon-B, and that the Empire is the second stupidest force in the SW Galaxy for fielding such expensive and weak ships, and the Rebels for being the stupidest in the SW Galaxy for failing to destroy the weak-shipped Empire before that...

[Khas]

And this conflicts with the intelligence levels seen in TCW, how?

[Who is like God arbour]

I have a very hard time believing that a Super ship the size of an SSD is so weak that a simple A-Wing has the firepower to take down it's shields and Generator at the same time...

That reminds me of the » HMS Sheffield (D80) « that was heavily damaged by an Exocet missile, although its warhead did not detonate. A good example how something as small as a missile can damage something as large as a 125 meter war ship. Insofar I have no problems with accepting that a few A-Wings are able to take down the shields of something as large as a SSD. That's their purpose. Otherwise no one would send such fighters against so large capital ships at all.

[Mike DiCenso]

I can see where targeting firepower on a specific area, such as shield generators will yeild results. We see it not only in RoTJ with the A-wings strafing and knocking out the shield dome on the SSD Executor, but also earlier in the battle with two X-wings managing a similar feat against a dome on an ISD.

But such things aren't limited to the OT:

* In RoTS, we see Anakin managing again by specifically targeting the shield generator for the Invisible Hand's landing bay.

* In the TCW episode "Shadows of Malevolence", we see Anakin and the Shadow Squadron's Y-wings first target the Malevolence's bridge, then when that is no longer possible due to the heavy attrition rate on Shadow Squadron's Y-wings, they target and severely damage the Ion cannon generators.

This all ties in to the effectiveness of starfighters in general against captial ships in the SW universe, and why they exist even at all. They are effective, and they can cause considerable damage to large ships.
-Mike

[Praeothmin]

Then it means that an ISD has no use whatsoever, since any good pilot using a simple starfighter can take one down as long as he targets the Shield Generators...

In both the RotJ examples, we know the targetted ships were in battle prior to both incidents, so they certainly did take damage before what we see happen...

In RotS, Anakin did not shoot down the Bridge Shield Generators, but the landing bay's Shields.
There's a good possibility, considering these ships had been in battle prior to the incident, that it's main Shields were down...

Sorry, not convinced...

[Who is like God arbour]

Then it means that an ISD has no use whatsoever, since any good pilot using a simple starfighter can take one down as long as he targets the Shield Generators...

They have as much use as each war ship on Earth has a use although each and every war ship can be destroyed by a simple fighter aircraft using a missile.

There are more than enough examples in Earth's history for the destruction or at least damaging of battle-ships and aircraft carriers, the heaviest war ships at all, by a simple fighter aircraft:

• in WWII by fighter aircraft destroyed or heavily damaged battleships:
  • Conte di Cavour
  • Littorio
  • Caio Duilio
  • Bismarck
  • Repulse
  • Arizona
  • Oklahoma
  • Utah
  • California
  • West Virginia
  • Nevada
  • Yamato

• in WWII by fighter aircraft destroyed or heavily damaged aircraft carriers:
  • Akagi
  • Kaga
  • Hiryu
  • Soryu
  • Yorktown

This list has no claim for completeness. But it shows that it is not unusual for even the heaviest war ships to get destroyed or heavily damaged by simple fighter aircrafts.

And if you now consider that George Lucas was inspired by events from WWII, it is not surprising that in his Star Wars simple star fighters are able to damage or destroy huge capital ships too.

[Praeothmin]

Yes, but unlike ships in our history, the ones in SW have energy shields in addition to their armor.
I'm supposed to believe that the sub-KT Firepower of an A-wing's main guns, not torpedoes, but cannons, can take down the undamaged shields of an SSD in one volley and are powerful eneough to destroy the Shield Generators at the same time...

That's the same back-bending type of reasoning that Warsies are accused of using to reconciliate the ICS with the movies...

Let's recap what we know of the battle in RotJ just for fun:
-Rebel fleet engages Imperial fleet which is blocking their escape (Why they didn't escape up or down "escapes" me, but hey, it's SW);
-The Imperial fleet comprises many ISDs, and an SSD, right in the middle of the enemy fleet;
-The two fleets go at it for some time, even engaging at point blank, before we hear Ackbar's order to "concentrate all fire on the SSD!";

So, I'm supposed to believe that, up to that point, no one, no Rebel ship had ever fired upon the SSD?
In a point blank fight where everyone's firing at everyone else?
Yeah, right...

[Lucky]

Yes, but unlike ships in our history, the ones in SW have energy shields in addition to their armor.
I'm supposed to believe that the sub-KT Firepower of an A-wing's main guns, not torpedoes, but cannons, can take down the undamaged shields of an SSD in one volley and are powerful eneough to destroy the Shield Generators at the same time...

That's the same back-bending type of reasoning that Warsies are accused of using to reconciliate the ICS with the movies...

Let's recap what we know of the battle in RotJ just for fun:
-Rebel fleet engages Imperial fleet which is blocking their escape (Why they didn't escape up or down "escapes" me, but hey, it's SW);
-The Imperial fleet comprises many ISDs, and an SSD, right in the middle of the enemy fleet;
-The two fleets go at it for some time, even engaging at point blank, before we hear Ackbar's order to "concentrate all fire on the SSD!";

So, I'm supposed to believe that, up to that point, no one, no Rebel ship had ever fired upon the SSD?
In a point blank fight where everyone's firing at everyone else?
Yeah, right...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGMvadAFqLQ
Skip to 6:15

Tell me what you think the two or three flashes are on the SSD.

They are either the A-wings attacking it, or someone was already firing on it, but I can't see any blots hitting it.
_____

Standard Star wars ship to ship combat tends to have capital ships send fighters to attack the other capital ship and enemy fighters while the capital ships get into range.

[Mr. Oragahn]

-Rebel fleet engages Imperial fleet which is blocking their escape (Why they didn't escape up or down "escapes" me, but hey, it's SW);

I think it's been explained with interdiction fields.
It's also possible that they were too close to Endor to attempt a proper FTL jump. In general in the movies, any departure or arrival seems to happen at a slightly greater distance from a planet.

-The Imperial fleet comprises many ISDs, and an SSD, right in the middle of the enemy fleet;
-The two fleets go at it for some time, even engaging at point blank, before we hear Ackbar's order to "concentrate all fire on the SSD!";

So, I'm supposed to believe that, up to that point, no one, no Rebel ship had ever fired upon the SSD?
In a point blank fight where everyone's firing at everyone else?
Yeah, right...

It's likely that some ships may have tried to fire at the SSD, but there has to be pragmatic people there.
First, as per the novelization, an engagement that close almost was a novelty, so generals and other captains may be a bit lost as to what to do.
Secondly, it would be obvious that you wouldn't stand a chance against a SSD, and as such you'd rather focus your firepower on lesser targets, notably communication/jamming and interdictor ships.
You'd probably put also more of your energy into your shields, to buy time. As per the EU, Mon Cal ships have better regenerative shields.
That, up until Ackbar decides that a final move has to be made and orders all firepower to be focused onto the SSD.
The biggest problem is the movie itself, which fails to show a single cruiser firing at the SSD and delivering the killing blow instead of two nimble fighters which, for some reason, managed to fire missiles which didn't get stopped : even now, people can't agree on what went on, if shields were up, and if yes, which ones (particle or energy?). Etc.

I'd have to find a link to a thread, most likely at SBC and against a hardcore warsie, Leo or Vespasian, where I argued against one of them about the Executor's shields. I was saying they went down after the A-wings' raid. I was really getting nuts, up to the point of my oponent refused to acknowledge the mere fact that the officer who reported the shield loss had done so after bending over his tech's shoulder to get a closer look at the screen which indicated that the bridge's shields had fallen after the explosion, while we could see that he was already observing the console before that obvious reaction of disbelief.
Somehow we should have believed that the shields were already down, but the officer didn't report it despite obviously keeping an eye on the console.

It's largely possible that energy shields were pushed to max to cope with the Rebel fire, and particles shields brought very low. After all, missiles are seldom used by these times.
The Imperials may have counted on the TIEs and point defenses to cover them before any missile could be fired. They probably considered that the Rebels were short on missiles by now, with most of their fighters downed. Ackbar probably gambled, trying to draw the Executor's officers' attention on the energy weapons, while ordering some fast A-wings to attempt a suicidal attack against the Executor's bridge and fire at it while the particle shields were low.

It's better to go with that than pretend the shields were already down but Rebel ships had stopped firing, and that the shields failed precisely at the same time the last Rebel bolt got totally sucked by the shields (super convenience ahoy!).
I know even l33telboi pointed out the idiocy of that warsie stance.

Still, no theory can be perfect for that incident.
What's truly absurd is Lucas' decision not to show a single bolt landing on that bridge or anywhere close, as simple as that, and instead going in with the idea that all the Rebel fleet = a pair of A-wings. :/

[Picard]

I can see where targeting firepower on a specific area, such as shield generators will yeild results. We see it not only in RoTJ with the A-wings strafing and knocking out the shield dome on the SSD Executor, but also earlier in the battle with two X-wings managing a similar feat against a dome on an ISD.

But such things aren't limited to the OT:

* In RoTS, we see Anakin managing again by specifically targeting the shield generator for the Invisible Hand's landing bay.

* In the TCW episode "Shadows of Malevolence", we see Anakin and the Shadow Squadron's Y-wings first target the Malevolence's bridge, then when that is no longer possible due to the heavy attrition rate on Shadow Squadron's Y-wings, they target and severely damage the Ion cannon generators.

This all ties in to the effectiveness of starfighters in general against captial ships in the SW universe, and why they exist even at all. They are effective, and they can cause considerable damage to large ships.
-Mike

Or at least en masse, or when other ships take shields of ship in question down. Proton torpedoes are in sub-kiloton to 1 kiloton range. Heavy weapons of ISD are in low megaton range. However, if SW shields are "leaky" like ST shields, even sub-kiloton weapons can take out some equipment on ISD (radar/sensor globes, bridge, guns etc).