Clone Numbers Part 2,871.4

[Jedi Master Spock]

My 2 cents about the clone-trooper numbers is as follows:

I tend to think that the Empire has a lower number of troops and ships as some might think.

To me the mere fact the built the Deathstar to try and terrorize their holdings enough to not run like hell from what Palpatine made out their once lovely republic speaks very strongly in the direction of a relatively small navy overall and corresponding number of troops.

If they had plenty of troops and ships the Deathstar would not really have been needed to control planets at all - a massive fleet threathening to bomb you into the stone age is also quite effective.

Note that this does count on the reasons behind building the Deathstar where rational ones and not 'lets build a superlaser, wheeee!'

I really think it's absolutely critical to remember the difference between the Empire and the Republic.

Remember, the Republic consisted of about a hundred thousand systems or so; the Empire controlled a million. The Republic was engaged in as staged civil war with a small army of clones, largely manufactured on Kamino;; the Empire was fighting a real - and decentralized - civil war with conscripts and/or volunteers recruited from across the galaxy. Even Tatooine.

Now, expanding territorial holdings requires real military force, and so does suppressing a rebellion. So, even, does replacing local system law enforcement with stormtroopers and bulk cruisers.

For all these reasons, I say the Empire has a larger and more powerful army and navy. I don't think the EU figure of 25.000 Star Destroyers seems that unreasonable at all. If I had to guess the order of the Imperial infantry, including both stormtroopers and regular troops, I'd say it's possibly multiple billions, while the Republic probably never had much more than a hundred million troops under arms (including the non-clones seen in ROTS).

[SSFPhoenix]

My guess would be that fully growing a batch of around a million took a decade, but if they cut into the growth and training they could make and send clones into battle faster. That is most likely how the Republic ended with only three million at the end of the war even if they produced more than three million. So that means that

1: The crappy clones died off in large numbers.
2: Even with production time cut, they only managed to make 3 million clones.
3: A combination of the two.

Another thing is that most clones were probably helping the systems' own defense forces, as better trained and equipped forces.

[Enterprise E]

There could also have been normal humans in the GAR by the time the war ended. There was a scene in RoTS where Obi-Wan was about to board a Venator Star Destroyer, and some "GAR" troopers had their helmets off. A couple were clearly clones, but one looked quite different, different enough that either he was a clone based on another individual, or he was a normal human who had been recruited into the GAR and was filling out the ranks due to clone casualties. That could allow for more realistic numbers for the Grand Army of the Republic, while still allowing the three million clones number to be correct.

[CrippledVulture]

It seems entirely reasonable to me that the Republic was something of a sleeping giant. They needed the clones to get things started and to augment their conventional forces. Once they had the time to raise a professional army of citizens -- or however they did it -- it would likely make all the expense of clone soldiers a little extravagant.

[Mike DiCenso]

There could also have been normal humans in the GAR by the time the war ended. There was a scene in RoTS where Obi-Wan was about to board a Venator Star Destroyer, and some "GAR" troopers had their helmets off. A couple were clearly clones, but one looked quite different, different enough that either he was a clone based on another individual, or he was a normal human who had been recruited into the GAR and was filling out the ranks due to clone casualties. That could allow for more realistic numbers for the Grand Army of the Republic, while still allowing the three million clones number to be correct.

Interesting, do you know where a screencap of this mystery trooper can be found, or what the time index is for PAL and NTSC? Is this guy even wearing armor, or is he in a different uniform altogether?
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

There could also have been normal humans in the GAR by the time the war ended. There was a scene in RoTS where Obi-Wan was about to board a Venator Star Destroyer, and some "GAR" troopers had their helmets off. A couple were clearly clones, but one looked quite different, different enough that either he was a clone based on another individual, or he was a normal human who had been recruited into the GAR and was filling out the ranks due to clone casualties. That could allow for more realistic numbers for the Grand Army of the Republic, while still allowing the three million clones number to be correct.

The only moment I found when Obi-Wan is about to board a Venator, is when he's talking to Anakin. There are two soldiers, indeed, one with his helmet off, but he's a clone.
Then there's Obi-Wan, preparing to leave for Utapau, talking to more clones while the Venator in question is in orbit of Coruscant.
I don't see any non-clone there.

[Mike DiCenso]

I've been looking as well, though admittedly, not as throughly, but I've not been able to find anything at all.
-Mike

[Enterprise E]

The only moment I found when Obi-Wan is about to board a Venator, is when he's talking to Anakin. There are two soldiers, indeed, one with his helmet off, but he's a clone.
Then there's Obi-Wan, preparing to leave for Utapau, talking to more clones while the Venator in question is in orbit of Coruscant.
I don't see any non-clone there.

I've re-watched the scenes and it is when Obi-Wan is already onboard the Venator and he is telling Cody that he'll try not to destroy all of the droids before he arrives just before he takes off out of the Venator and head towards Utapau. On the far left, our perspective, there is a "clone soldier" that has different colored hair and his facial structure looks different from the other soldiers present, who I could easily identify as clones, even despite some distinguishing characteristics. Granted, he could still be a clone since several clones do have distinguishing characteristics especially in The Clone Wars series, such as different hair color, haircuts, beards, etc. But this one seemed a little too different. He seemed to be older, to me, than the clone soldiers appeared, and there were other little things that distinguished him, even from the other "unique" clones as well. I wish I could put up a screen cap, but I'm not that knowledgeable on how to do so just yet.

[2046]

I just went through that entire scene in HD and saw no one. There are some helmeted technician dudes but that's it. Everyone else is a clone, save for Obi-Wan.

[Mike DiCenso]

I still can't locate this alleged trooper even after your description of where he's supposed to be, Enterprise E.
-Mike