ST:Picard: Late 24th Century Starfleet Size

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Mike DiCenso
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ST:Picard: Late 24th Century Starfleet Size

Post by Mike DiCenso » Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:10 pm

According to the Star Trek:Picard episode "Remembrance", the rescue armada that was destroyed in the Synth attack on Mars was "ten thousand warp-capable ferries". We see in a flashback the Ptolemy-class tug-like craft:

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Fe ... g_2385.jpg

These are fairly decent sized ships. Just going off general features, like the bridge domes,etc, their saucer sections are roughly about the same size as a Constitution-class or Miranda-class starship's saucer section. So without the cargo modules, roughly about 250-300 meters in length. With the modules, they can certainly be easily double that.

This puts into perspective that the entire Starfleet of the late 2250s was some 7,000 vessels of unknown composition after more than a year of a devastating war, it seems that the late 24th century Starfleet may be in the tens of thousands of vessels with everything from support vessels like these to big capital vessels like the Sovereign and Galaxy-class.

This also gives us a pretty interesting perspective on what the real losses of the Dominion War was for the Federation and its allies as well as the previous fighting with the Borg and the skirmishing with the Klingons just prior.
-Mike

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Re: ST:Picard: Late 24th Century Starfleet Size

Post by Sothis » Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:50 pm

Greetings Mike, I hope you're keeping well in the midst of all this craziness. I've taken to drawing some... questionable artwork (I post it on Trek BBS, and on Stardestroyer.net, just to torment people, but it won't let me post it here for some reason), in order to stay sane!

The induction of DSC and PIC into the Star Trek canon has certainly provided a lot more depth to fleet strength. It seems like the Feds have the capability, if not always the will, to build a large fleet (then again, in peace time, why would they need to?).

One of the things I'd been keen to know is the composition of the fleet. The Feds were still building Excelsiors circa the end of VOY, no doubt with up-to-date tech, but if we get a good look at the fleet now, I'd like to think they've finally phased out Mirandas and Excelsiors. If I were in charge, I'd be looking at plenty of Sabres, Steamrunners and Akiras - modern designs, more capable in a fight than their predecessors, and supported by the small-but-tough Defiant class. I'd reserve Galaxies and Sovereigns for flag vessels, allowing me to build up a larger fleet of smaller yet sophisticated vessels, that nonetheless still pack a punch.

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Re: ST:Picard: Late 24th Century Starfleet Size

Post by Mike DiCenso » Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:46 pm

[
Sothis wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:50 pm
Greetings Mike, I hope you're keeping well in the midst of all this craziness. I've taken to drawing some... questionable artwork (I post it on Trek BBS, and on Stardestroyer.net, just to torment people, but it won't let me post it here for some reason), in order to stay sane!
Surprisingly, I've not been too affected (or infected) by what's going on beyond just dealing with annoying shortages and shop closures.
The induction of DSC and PIC into the Star Trek canon has certainly provided a lot more depth to fleet strength. It seems like the Feds have the capability, if not always the will, to build a large fleet (then again, in peace time, why would they need to?).
A lot has changed over the decades Star Trek has been on the air with ever larger budgets and the ability to portray onscreen capabilities only imagined by the original TOS FX people. We saw as early as late DS9 very large fleets of hundreds or thousands strong and now we can see even more, though time pressure to meet deadlines still results in shortcuts, like having DISC-era ships still around in the late 24th century.
One of the things I'd been keen to know is the composition of the fleet. The Feds were still building Excelsiors circa the end of VOY, no doubt with up-to-date tech, but if we get a good look at the fleet now, I'd like to think they've finally phased out Mirandas and Excelsiors. If I were in charge, I'd be looking at plenty of Sabres, Steamrunners and Akiras - modern designs, more capable in a fight than their predecessors, and supported by the small-but-tough Defiant class. I'd reserve Galaxies and Sovereigns for flag vessels, allowing me to build up a larger fleet of smaller yet sophisticated vessels, that nonetheless still pack a punch.
As per Picard's "Rememberance", we still see older vessels being used in the fleet or at least two were there at the Utopia Planitia shipyards during the attack and we have no idea how old the evacuation transport design is supposed to be.
-Mike

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Re: ST:Picard: Late 24th Century Starfleet Size

Post by misternobody86 » Tue Nov 16, 2021 7:21 am

Quite honestly both examples from Picard or Discovery seem wildly out a whack and incongruent with what's come before. Starfleet with 7000+ ships, pre Klingon war, in the 2250's seems way to high considering a century ago its doubtful humanity had more than a few dozen ships to its name and based on what we saw of the Andorians, Vulcans, Tellarites I wouldn't have guessed they had over a thousand ships between them. Most of which likely stayed as part of their local defense fleet once the Federation was formed, or in Vulcan's case possibly mothballed following the dissolution of the High Command.

Not to mention I don't think TOS showed us an NCC number above the high 1000's suggesting that the 2260's Federation should only have around 2000 or so ships in total. I suppose its possible tug ships don't get NCC numbers but as far as I know Runabouts do so it seems odd a larger ship would be overlooked.

And if mid to late 24th century Federation has ten thousand warp capable, 300 meter long starships just sitting around it begs the question why the desperate, on the verge of losing Federation didn't employ them against the Dominion. Either as hastily converted pesudo-battleships by slapping on phaser arrays or loading them up with photon torpedoes or simply spamming them as kamikazes.

All in all, it seems like they're going for high sounding numbers without staying consistent with what came before.

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Re: ST:Picard: Late 24th Century Starfleet Size

Post by 2046 » Wed Nov 17, 2021 5:09 am

Once MA realized it was a re-use from Discovery they changed the year info in the link/title, with no redirect from the old URL . . . may wanna edit your post for clarity:

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Fe ... 2257-2385)

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Re: ST:Picard: Late 24th Century Starfleet Size

Post by 2046 » Wed Nov 17, 2021 5:27 am

misternobody86 wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 7:21 am
Quite honestly both examples from Picard or Discovery seem wildly out a whack and incongruent with what's come before.
In deference to Mike's rather strong preference of mixing the Star Trek Original Universe and other Trek universes (and since he's the OP), it might be better if this was a new thread, or in this new thread about Discoverse discontinuities: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=46935

It might also behoove us to have some sort of thread tag a la old Star Wars threads elsewhere that would have "EU" when the Expanded Universe was to be included. "OU", "KU", "DU", and "Mix" might work. Just for completeness, one might also desire a novels/books-only tag (BU?), since although the Discoverse (DU) includes the books, per Kurtzman, if I wanted to discuss Diane Carey's "Final Frontier" in isolation it might be nice to be able to mark it so.

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Re: ST:Picard: Late 24th Century Starfleet Size

Post by Mike DiCenso » Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:04 am

misternobody86 wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 7:21 am
Quite honestly both examples from Picard or Discovery seem wildly out a whack and incongruent with what's come before. Starfleet with 7000+ ships, pre Klingon war, in the 2250's seems way to high considering a century ago its doubtful humanity had more than a few dozen ships to its name and based on what we saw of the Andorians, Vulcans, Tellarites I wouldn't have guessed they had over a thousand ships between them. Most of which likely stayed as part of their local defense fleet once the Federation was formed, or in Vulcan's case possibly mothballed following the dissolution of the High Command.

Not to mention I don't think TOS showed us an NCC number above the high 1000's suggesting that the 2260's Federation should only have around 2000 or so ships in total. I suppose its possible tug ships don't get NCC numbers but as far as I know Runabouts do so it seems odd a larger ship would be overlooked.

And if mid to late 24th century Federation has ten thousand warp capable, 300 meter long starships just sitting around it begs the question why the desperate, on the verge of losing Federation didn't employ them against the Dominion. Either as hastily converted pesudo-battleships by slapping on phaser arrays or loading them up with photon torpedoes or simply spamming them as kamikazes.

All in all, it seems like they're going for high sounding numbers without staying consistent with what came before.
What came before indeed:

Image
Image

As you can see, Starfleet has different registries for certain support starships, like the Huron and the robot ships. And yes, some years ago, TAS was recanonized again.

We also now in Star Trek: Lower Decks have the California-class starships and we have seen other ships about various giant starbases that have not been seen previously. The Dominion War also saw many "Frankenstein" kitbash designs that appear to have been slapped together hastily for the war effort like the U.S.S. Curry in the lower right here:
Image

So the idea that the Federation wasn't just sitting on what they had.Plus post-war we can assume a major rebuild and rearmament of the fleet.
-Mike

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Re: ST:Picard: Late 24th Century Starfleet Size

Post by misternobody86 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:24 am

If you would like we can continue this conversation in this thread since this is, potentially, off-topic.
Mike DiCenso wrote:As you can see, Starfleet has different registries for certain support starships, like the Huron and the robot ships. And yes, some years ago, TAS was recanonized again.
The problem is those are clearly supposed to be NCC numbers rather than some different registry entirely. They simply don't gel with the NCC numbers observed from TOS. Suggesting a contradiction than a clearly defined alternative.

Additionally both of the readable registries are consistent with the at or below 2000 ships seen with TOS NCC numbers.

Edit: We also have an example of the Antares, identified as a "cargo vessel", possessing a more normal NCC number.
We also now in Star Trek: Lower Decks have the California-class starships and we have seen other ships about various giant starbases that have not been seen previously.
Edited since my previous comment came across as more terse than I truly intended. Suffice it to say Lower Decks may perfectly support the numbers shown in Discovery and Picard but that, in itself, wouldn't erase any potential disagreement with what came before.
So the idea that the Federation wasn't just sitting on what they had.Plus post-war we can assume a major rebuild and rearmament of the fleet.
Well if this is in response to me, I never claimed the Federation was "just sitting on what they had". I pointed out the Dominion War, and Classic Trek in general, is fairly well-defined in terms of numbers. To quote from myself elsewhere:
Ie It taking starfleet the better part of a year to replace 39 ship losses incurred by the Borg attack, the Seventh fleet starting the Dominion War with only one hundred-twelve ships, that even well into the war when the Federation industry should have been ramping up it had to scrap to scrounge up roughly six hundred starships to retake Deep Space Nine as well as the suggestion that the additional "couple of thousand" of Dominion ships waiting on the other end of the wormhole was going to be enough to tip the balance of the war in the Dominion's favor.
All of the above is largely incompatible with the Federation having ten thousand of hundreds of meters long warp capable ferries in addition to their normal fleet. And suggests the Federation has stagnated, if not possibly regressed, in industry since the 2250's with the latter's starfleet being as large if not larger than its 24th century counterpart.
Last edited by misternobody86 on Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: ST:Picard: Late 24th Century Starfleet Size

Post by 2046 » Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:45 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:04 am
And yes, some years ago, TAS was recanonized again.


Just a clarification, but it is only canon inasmuch as it is part of the CBS canon which includes novels and comics. It was never canonized during the Roddenberry-Berman era. Tim Gaskill, editor of StarTrek.com, started calling it canon sometime after Enterprise ended, but this was something of an insurgent claim since it never went through any oversight, to my knowledge. In other words, with production staff gone, he basically pretended he was running the franchise.

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