Defiant vs Lajota: who wins

[Enterprise E]

In an all out fight to the death with full use of their weapons, I would say that the Defiant ends up winning the fight. First of all, in the fight where the two ships held back, the Lakota got off several free shots before the Defiant decided to fight back. Even then, the Defiant missed with several of its pulse phaser shots, and I would not be surprised if those misses were actually intentional considering the circumstances and the fact that they were going for the saucer rather than the more exposed, but potentially more volatile, stardrive section. Even then, at the end, the Lakota was in worse shape than the Defiant. One good hit, phaser or torpedo, would finish it, while it was implied that it would take a quantum torpedo to finish off the Defiant. In an all out battle, both sides would shoot on sight and use their best weapons, their quantum torpedoes, in addition to their phasers. Given the firepower of the Defiant's pulse phasers and the fact that it can fire two quantum torpedoes at once, and each launcher seems to be able to launch a single torpedo every half to two thirds of a second or so, I think that the Defiant can score more torpedo hits on the Lakota than the Lakota can score on the Defiant. Yes the Lakota likely has better shields, but the Defiant also has its ablative armor as well, which may be able to compensate. Not only that, but the Defiant is also more maneuverable than the Lakota, so there's also the chance that the Defiant may be able to avoid a quantum torpedo or two from the Lakota if it closes in to point blank range pretty fast and gets to the Lakota's side. In the end, in my opinion, the Defiant wins.

[Praeothmin]

Enterprise-E, the Defiant winning was never in doubt, the debate comes from the fact Kor believes the Defiant would steamroll over the Lakota, while nothing indicates such a disparity in power and toughness...

[Enterprise E]

Oh I don't think that the Defiant will steamroll the Lakota, but I do think that it wins pretty convincingly. From what I can surmise by looking at the episode, I would guess that the Defiant had superior firepower, while the Lakota had superior shields. Given that they're both Starfleet vessels, then their targeting computers are likely equal, and given the Lakota's size, chances are that the Defiant won't miss, and as we know from the fight, neither will the Lakota. The main disparity comes in the form of torpedo firepower. The Lakota has three, maybe four torpedo launchers, if I'm not mistaken, each of which can fire quantum torpedoes. The Defiant has two forward firing quantum torpedo launchers as well, but they seem to have a higher rate of fire than the Excelsior-class starship, which seems to fire one torpedo every second. From what I remember of the Defiant's rate of fire, it's four torpedoes per second when factoring in that each launcher fires about two torpedoes per second. That's where this becomes pretty one-sided. The Lakota will have an edge in phaser coverage and possibly firepower if it combines the power from multiple emitters into one beam. The issue is that quantum torpedoes are noticeably stronger than photon torpedoes, which themselves seem to be stronger than phasers, depending on the phaser. The disparity in torpedo firepower is where this becomes a convincing victory for the Defiant. This will add up fast, even with the Lakota's shield advantage. So while I don't think that it will be an absolute massacre, given what I've seen of the two ships and what can be surmised, I think that the Defiant will win pretty convincingly.

[KirkSkyWalker]

Kor, you ignore the fact that the upgraded Lakota did much damage to the Defiant, and had they been both fighting "balls-to-walls", both would have taken heavy damage, since even Quantorps that fail to hit critical systems would have done much damage to the Defiant.

We all agree the Defiant would win, but it would not dominate like you seem to think.
Do not forget the warships the Defiant fought were Cardassians (not the most powerful ships, and not the most precise), Klingons (BoP are not very powerful, and one on one, a Vorch'a is less powerful than a GCS, and also not as precise), and mostly?
None of them had QuanTorps...

The Lakota got off at least 6 full powered phaser shots if not more on the Defiants shields before the Defiant started fighting back and even with that head start it was only one shot away from being destroyed while the defiant was not great but in better shape by the end of the fight.

The Defiant raped jem'hadar attack fighters as well as breen warships and the scaling of the breen ships showed dimensions that were overall larger than the Excelsior class, and they were obviously dedicated warships.


The defiant has 4 rapid firing Quantum torpedo launchers and 4 forward Phaser cannons that are by far the most powerful ship board phaser type available.

The Lakota has 2 forward phaser arrays that at best had been upgraded from the standard type 8's Excelsior class have to type 10's like those on the E-D and it has 2 forward torp launchers that were upgraded to fire quantum's.

We know that the firepower of type 10 phasers did damage jem'hadar attack ships but had to be focused and fire for some time to destroy one (DS9: Jem'Hadar). Considering the rate of fire for the Lakota and its amount of phaser banks and launchers i am not sure how much damage one or two Quantum torps and a phaser burst or two from them would do to the Defiant while its ablative armour was undamaged and at full or high shields, especially if it had its forward shields reinforced.

While the Defiants Phaser canons can totally destroy a jem'hadar attack fighter with just a few pulses. 4 Quantum torpedoes fired from the defiant were enough to totally trash and rip in half a undamaged and fully shielded Breen warship that has slightly larger overall dimensions than a Excelsior class ship.

So while it is clear that a full powered continuous volley from the defiant's phasers coupled with at least 4 quantum torpedoes would likely destroy the Lakota or at the very least damage it to a point of uselessness. I am not sure if the volley from the Lakota of 1-2 quantum's and at most 1-2 phaser shots would do significant damage if any to the defiant apart from its shields obviously.

Obviously i am assuming that they both get a full volley off each as they approach and that each volley hits the target.

Let's also not forget that the Defiant wasn't trying to detroy the Lakota, just disable it; otherwise they could have targeted critical systems like the warp-engines, and ka-BOOM.
Meanwhile the Defiant's warp-engines are designed for battle, not speed; i.e. they have no pylons to speak of, and are far better protected and shielded, being closer to the hull.
So the ship can only get up to about warp 6, but that's all you need for combat in the 24th centry.

[Praeothmin]

Let's also not forget that the Defiant wasn't trying to detroy the Lakota, just disable it; otherwise they could have targeted critical systems like the warp-engines, and ka-BOOM.
Meanwhile the Defiant's warp-engines are designed for battle, not speed; i.e. they have no pylons to speak of, and are far better protected and shielded, being closer to the hull.
So the ship can only get up to about warp 6, but that's all you need for combat in the 24th centry.

The Lakota, at first, was also only trying to disable the Lakota.
It was only when it was clear the Defiant was continuing on its course to Earth that the Lakota received the order to use her QTs.
If the Lakota had used them up front, that would have wrecked the Defiant's day very nicely, thank you... :)

And the Defiant can in fact go above Warp 9 before it starts trying to rip itself apart...