Starfleet Jedi

Let's check what we can get about the era when Paul Atreïdes attacks Padishah on Arrakis, the troops, beasts, vessels, weapons and ships.

Feel free to check the recent wiki or dunenovels.com.

If I recall properly, part of Paul's plan had been to destroy a high rock ridge with a stone burner, in order to allow a sandstorm cause on the defenses set around Shaddam Corrino IV's position.

I spotted an interesting detail about industrial capacity by the time of the Butlerian Jihad, and I think it's safe to consider that things didn't devolve that much since then, as far as it comes to the production of ships.

Are there any crispy details about the abilities of lasguns?

A part of the problem is that we have different (not necessarily conflicting) canon sources. I'm only familiar with the two movies, for example.


I don't think the original Dune movie even had orinthopters, for example, but it should be pretty easy to quantify what velocity do the shields start becoming effective.

ILikeDeathNote wrote:A part of the problem is that we have different (not necessarily conflicting) canon sources. I'm only familiar with the two movies, for example.


I don't think the original Dune movie even had orinthopters, for example, but it should be pretty easy to quantify what velocity do the shields start becoming effective.

The 84 Dune movie did have flying machines. The biggest liberty Lynch took was in the weirding modules (which were kinda cool in fact).
But this movie, or the TV trilogy, are not part of the common canon that is about the books.
Some don't even put works beyond FH's hands into the canon, considering KJA and else to be a form of sub canon at best, apocrypha at worst, but that's an opinion.

I for one would try to include all books supposed to be part of the same continuity from Herbert's books.

About shields, there are references regarding the penetration velocity that is allowed, some shields apparently enabling the threshold to be modified as long as it permits natural breathing. Which means a fully autonomous suit, with mask and air tanks, could support a near impenetrable personal shield.

As for nuke yields, I'll try to see what we can find about the shield-lasgun interaction and the ensuing magnitudes.
It's rather obvious that if a mere lasgun charge against a portal shield could result into the equivalent of a small nuclear reaction, that chemistry could easily be replicated by design in nukes using a derivative and efficient analogue system to the shield-lasgun reaction.

It puzzles me why the prequel books insisted that starships could be protected with such shields, since a lasgun shot could be enough to lead to the same reaction, but to a larger magnitude... and in space, the effects of such explosions would not be such a source a source of worry as a nuclear blast would be in atmosphere.

Hmm. What if shield and lasgun interaction causes anti-matter to be formed? Would explain why there's a massive nuclear explosion. Lasguns on their own, while powerful, are not in the nuclear range, and I doubt that shield units are either, though it's not impossible.

Mr. Oragahn wrote: The 84 Dune movie did have flying machines. The biggest liberty Lynch took was in the weirding modules (which were kinda cool in fact).
But this movie, or the TV trilogy, are not part of the common canon that is about the books.

The movie and TV mini-series had aircraft to be sure, but they were clearly not the 'thopters described in the Dune books since they had fixed wings and conventional jet or rocket engines while the books describe this type of flying machine.
-Mike

l33telboi wrote:Hmm. What if shield and lasgun interaction causes anti-matter to be formed? Would explain why there's a massive nuclear explosion. Lasguns on their own, while powerful, are not in the nuclear range, and I doubt that shield units are either, though it's not impossible.

No, it's not a matter of the lasguns power, nor the shields, though that may have an effect on just how big a nuke-type BOOM you get, but the canon sources seem to indicate the explosion is rather random; it may just blow up the shield wearer and the gunner or you may get get something to rival the largest of nukes. What is happening, however, is described in the books as a form subatomic fusion, not the creation of antimatter.
-Mike

Mr. Oragahn wrote: About shields, there are references regarding the penetration velocity that is allowed, some shields apparently enabling the threshold to be modified as long as it permits natural breathing. Which means a fully autonomous suit, with mask and air tanks, could support a near impenetrable personal shield.

Here's the original Dune entry:

"SHIELD, DEFENSIVE: the protective field produced by a Holtzman generator. This field derives from Phase One of the suspensor-nullification effect. A shield will permit entry only to objects moving at slow speeds (depending on setting, this speed ranges from six to nine centimeters per second) and can be shorted out only by a shire-sized electric field."

6-9 centimeters per second is your average penetration speed. You might get away with tossing a hand grenade into someone's shield, if you could time it right.
-Mike

Holtzmann shields, lasguns and interactions

There's clearly a reaction which outputs far more energy than what the devices seem capable of, unless for some reason a shield generator would contain terajoules of potential energy, but it's doubtful.

I found another forum here, it has many posts and threads, so I'll try to find more information there.

Now, continuing my little adventure and trying to find quotes posted by others for the moment, here's something of interest:

Edric wrote: I've got a copy of the book The Road To Dune, In the deleted chapter from Dune Messiah called ALIA & THE DUNCAN IDAHO GHOLA there's a conversation between Edric, Alia and Hayt which I found very interesting because I often wonderd why Lasgun/Shied attacks weren't so prevelant in the Duniverse . . .

“You can do no more than kill me,” he said, and there was a strange feeling of emotion in the artificial voice.
“Is that so?” Alia asked. She gestured imperiously to a guard captain, said: “Bring me a lasgun.”
“No!” Duncan blurted.
“Do as I command,” Alia ordered.
The guard captain hesitated. “The Guild swine may have a shield in that tank,” he said.
“M’Lady,” Duncan said. “Touch a lasgun beam to a shield and the entire city will go up in the explosion.”
“And the Guild will be charged with using atomic weapons against House Atreides,” she said. “Who can tell a lasgun-shield explosion from the blast of a fusion bomb?”

Four things:

1. It appears to be a deleted chapter, not part of the final print. I don't know enough about the canonical status of such material.
2. I'll try to find what city they're speaking of. It is absolutely clear that that single explosion would largely level most of its structures. It would much likely be worth several kilotons.
3. There's a mention of a Guild tank, but it's possible it's one of these vats the third stage navigators are found in.
4. A shield-lasgun effect has very similar fallout effects to a fusion bomb.

Returning to point 1, here's extra knowledge:

Edric wrote: As for accepting the passage as canon or not I choose too for one simple reason. Dune Messiah as I understand was serialized in a magazine before it was published in novel form, as such some material was edited out purely for reasons of the length of the story and never republished in the novel version for reasons that I've never fully understood.

Purely a question of choice I guess. So it's not good enough as a reference.

But it appears to be confirmed nonetheless:

Goya Solidar wrote: From Dune:

"There is no traitor," she said. "The threat's something else. Perhaps it has to do with the lasguns. Perhaps they'll risk secreting a few lasguns with timing mechanisms aimed at house shields. Perhaps they'll . . . "
"And who could tell after the blast if the explosion wasn't atomic?" he asked. "No, my Lady. They'll not risk anything that illegal. Radiation lingers. The evidence is hard to erase. No. They'll observe most of the forms. It has to be a traitor."

Going on with quotes provided over there.

FH in Terminology of the Imperium wrote: LASGUN: continuous-wave laser projector. Its use as a weapon is limited in a field-generator-shield culture because of the explosive pyrotechnics (technically, subatomic fusion) created when its beam intersects a shield.

The TotI lexicon is found at the end of Dune.

Jessica focused her mind on lasguns, wondering. The white-hot beams of
disruptive light could cut through any known substance, provided that substance
was not shielded. The fact that feedback from a shield would explode both lasgun
and shield did not bother the Harkonnens. Why? A lasgun-shield explosion was a
dangerous variable, could be more powerful than atomics, could kill only the
gunner and his shielded target.

Glaring white light filled the desert--bright as a sun, etching their
shadows onto the rock floor of the ledge. In one sweeping motion, Idaho had
Paul's arm in one hand, Jessica's shoulder in the other, hurling them down off
the ledge into the basin. They sprawled together in the sand as the roar of an
explosion thundered over them. Its shock wave tumbled chips off the rock ledge
they had vacated.
Idaho sat up, brushed sand from himself.
"Not the family atomics!" Jessica said. "I thought--"
"You planted a shield back there," Paul said.
"A big one turned to full force," Idaho said. "A lasgun beam touched it and
. . . " He shrugged.
"Subatomic fusion," Jessica said. "That's a dangerous weapon."
"Not weapon, m'Lady, defense. That scum will think twice before using
lasguns another time."

I'm questioning the idea of having such interaction deemed more powerful than atomics. However, it appears to be unreliable. So you're gambling with that kind of stuff.

Through Paul's mind flashed the related knowledge, the hunter-seeker limitations: Its compressed suspensor field distorted the vision of its transmitter eye. With nothing but the dim light of the room to reflect his target, the operator would be relying on motion--anything that moved. A shield could slow a hunter, give time to destroy it, but Paul had put aside his shield on the bed. Lasguns would knock them down, but lasguns were expensive and notoriously cranky of maintenance--and there was always the peril of explosive pyrotechnics if the laser beam intersected a hot shield. The Atreides relied on their body shields and their wits.

Lasguns are expensive and a maintenance extensive.
The hunter (a floating machine which field of view is so screwed by the field that it appears to be good with motion seeking only) would be slowed down through the shield, leaving the quick wearer enough time to smash the device.
Notice the precision that a hot shield can lead to pyrotechnics. The shield's heat is possibly related to its power, perhaps the "compression" mentioned in the quote as well.

Talking about such intereaction at a larger scale, here's what appears in the prequels, about the battle of Corrin:

The lasers struck the shields, triggering a cascade of pseudo atomic detonations. Within seconds the entire human fleet was vaporized, one after another, in blinding flashes of light. However, the feedback of the laser shield interaction was so intense that most of the neo-cymek gunners were also obliterated.

Dune wrote:Jessica focused her mind on lasguns, wondering. The white-hot beams of
disruptive light could cut through any known substance, provided that substance
was not shielded. The fact that feedback from a shield would explode both lasgun
and shield did not bother the Harkonnens. Why? A lasgun-shield explosion was a
dangerous variable, could be more powerful than atomics, could kill only the
gunner and his shielded target.

The fact that the beams are white hot and can cut through anything, when used by infantry, would probably point to particularly powerful weapons.

Now, a certain form of prescience manipulation has allowed, in the past, a lasgun to be unaffected by the effect which generally, but not always, destroys both shield and weapon.
Norma Cenva achieved this feat.

There's a reference in the FAQ of the website I linked to which mentions the following event:

Q:In THE BUTLERIAN JIHAD, when Holtzman and Norma are testing the las-gun/shield interaction for the first time, only the shield generator explodes. In previous books both las-gun and shield were destroyed. Can you explain this?

A:Norma herself has certain untapped powers of prescient manipulation -- she's not even aware of them yet in THE BUTLERIAN JIHAD. In all other instances, lasgun and shield both explode.

This ability might be related to a loose variant of Jessica's ability to alter the Water of Life to a non-poisonous state, at the atomic scale, during the Agony.
However, it is interesting to speculate that if one ever were to master this capacity, lasguns could be spared the usual mutual destruction assured by shooting a shield.

As for the reaction itself, I don't know if it's something basic as a side effect traveling back along the photon beam as it's still fired (lasguns are continuous-wave weapons, not pulse weapons).
If so, either the explosive and instantaneous effect happens when the laser beam contacts the shield (A), or when a first side effect travels back along the beam, to hit the fusion-based weapon, and only then makes a sort of instantaneous connection between both shield and weapon and generates the explosion (B).
It would suggest that over certain ranges, the beam would touch a shield after it's finished being fired.
Eventually, a pulse variant would avoid the problem, but would be weaker.







Infantry groups

Dune wrote: Leto: "How many do you think they'll ship in, Thufir?"
Thufir: "Four or five battalions all told, Sire. No more, Guild troop-transport costs being what they are."

It would appear the Guild either has specific troop transport ships, or uses a special tariff for troop transport.

"This had been the worst night of Hawat's life. He had been at Tsimpo, a garrison village, buffer outpost for the former capital city, Carthag, when the reports of attack began arriving. At first he'd thought: It's a raid. The Harkonnens are testing.
But report followed report- faster and faster.
Two legions landed at Carthag.
Five legions- fifty brigades!- attacking the Duke's main base at Arrakeen.
A legion at Arsunt.
Two battle groups at Splintered Rock.
Then the reports became more detailed- there were Imperial Sardaukar among the attackers- possibly two legions of them."

1 Legion = 10 Brigades.

A legion could be the equivalent of a division here, numbering in the tens of thousand troops.

Eventually, the following hierarchy might be relevant:

Legion > Brigade > Battalion > Company > Platoon > Squad > Fireteam.

A battle group could be what corresponds to a battalion. The current general and average figures for battalions are around 1000-1500 men.

Considering that the soldiers present at Splintered Rock were identified as two battle groups, then we could suggest that at the very least, a brigade would be composed of three of these battle groups, and therefore, based on the figure above, an absolute minimum of 3,000 men.
Checking wiki, current brigades can range from 4000 to 11,000 men, so the 3000 men figure appears too low. Three times 1500 men returns 4,500 men, which makes a better lower end for a typical brigade in Duneverse.







Atomics

We can focus on the Salusa Secundus case.
Here, we find an interesting discussion about the history of the planet, and if you consider the prequel books, it's made fact that the hellish place that SS is by the time of Paul, formerly was a pleasant place.
It was nuked to madness. Beyond mere radioactive pollution, SS still remains a shithole many thousands of years later on. It's not even described as a Nagasaki-scale planet, you know, with normal life but horrible illnesses all around.
No, it's clearly viewed as a wasteland, and only an intensive bombardment could have been responsible of this.
Besides, it was caused by a minor House.

Now, we can consider the stone burners.

Paul remained silent, thinking what this weapon implied. Too much fuel in it and it'd cut its way into the planet's core. Dune's molten level lay deep, but the more dangerous for that. Such pressures released and out of control might split a planet, scattering lifeless bits and pieces through space.

Another wiki, Dunepedia, says the following about stone burners:

Technology Overview

Stone Burners were atomic weapons (therefore under the jurisdiction of the Great Convention) that generated powerful "J Radiation". As such, they were able to burn through rock to a preset distance. The Stone Burner came in various sizes and shapes, but most often resembled a cylindrical package that contained a conventional Atomic. The controls contained a delay timer (which could be set to a convenient time) to control activation of the device. There was also a "fuel consumption" setting that limited the extent of damage caused by the device. The device had to be armed or made ready in order to operate, after which the Stone Burner was capable of destroying the local area of a specified size or of tunneling to the core of a targetted planet, causing its destruction by way of core detonation.

Effects

Unlike conventional Atomics there was no detonation or explosion from the operation of the Stone Burner. Doubtless those who were in close proximity to the device when it began operation would suffer thermal burns or projectile damage from displaced rock as the device began its descent into the ground. Local effects included a rumbling sound that was transmitted through the ground and diminished as the device sank. A "flinty" odor could be detected during the early part of the operation. The J Radiation emitted during operation has a destructive effect upon the tissues of the human eye. Depending upon the distance that the sufferer is located from the device while it is in operation blindness may come quickly or a period of time may elapse before vision fades and then the eye tissue dies. Those further away will recuperate and suffer no long lasting effects. The greatest risk from the Stone Burner is its potential to damage the planet upon which it is activated.

It is unclear what Herbert was smokin' back then, but there's no way a planetary natural pressure can blow up a planet if released by a mere crack, or any crack at all. If for some reason, the crust would be super solid, the crack only generate a massive jet. Period.
So either Dune had super untapped unstable matter in stock, but it's a pure nonsense to assert such a thing, or the stone burner can find materials in the core of a planet which allow for a massive and totally exotic chain reaction.

The idea that the weapon on itself can reach the core of a planet if enough fuel is put into it is rather impressive.

Other atomics, fission or fusion based, are far more conventional.
Paul used his family's atomics to break the Shield Wall, which at some point peaked at 4500 m apparently (according to the Dune North Pole map).

Considering the Golevka asteroid destruction simulation, it's rather fair to consider that these weapons, at least the fusion ones, easily reach the double digit megatons.
They were used to destroy the ridge at the narrowest point, to allow the passage of sandworms.

In the KJA and BH prequel books, Earth gets nuked pretty good by a fleet of of starships of the Army of the Jihad sent by the League of Nobles to gain the first victory in the Butlerian Jihad over the Thinking Machines of the Synchronized Worlds lead by Omnius and Erasmus. The planet is described as being rendered utterly barren by the bombardment. All life, both organic and artifical machine life is sterilized from the surface. Other worlds similarly follow Earth's fate during the Jihad, though some are not completely rendered uninhabitiable.
-Mike

I have not read those books yet, I'm quite late in the whole Dune book series, but I noticed how this stirs issues regarding continuity and how, when and where the Orange Christian Bible was assembled. Still, I spotted dates, and in the prequels, it is said that Earth was nuked 200 BG, with the OC Bible made in 1 AG (or perhaps later).
I don't know if Earth was terraformed back, but it seems so. At least the Atreides did a good job on Geidi Prime at some point I think.
I noticed a speculation going on about water worms capable of turning a shit hole into a nice place (Salusa Secundus)... ??

Here's a bit more about the attack of Arrakis.

Dune wrote:Now, hiding beneath a bit of desert rock, he nodded to himself, pulled his torn and slashed tunic around him as though warding off the cold shadows.
The size of the attack.
He had always expected their enemy to hire an occasional lighter from the Guild for probing raids. That was an ordinary enough gambit in this kind of House-to-House warfare. Lighters landed and took off on Arrakis regularly to transport the spice for House Atreides. Hawat had taken precautions against random raids by false spice lighters. For a full attack they’d expected no more than ten brigades.
But there were more than two thousand ships down on Arrakis at the last count–not just lighters, but frigates, scouts, monitors, crushers, troop-carriers, dump-boxes . . .
More than a hundred brigades–ten legions!
The entire spice income of Arrakis for fifty years might just cover the cost of such a venture.
It might.
I underestimated what the Baron was willing to spend in attacking us, Hawat thought. I failed my Duke.

Ten legions, including five Sardaukar legions, according to Paul's vision of the current time.

+ 2000 ships carried over there by the Guild, which "normally" allows smaller ships (lighters) than their Heighliners, to transport small forces for House to House struggles.

My speculation based on some loose memories and what I could track thus far.

lighters - probably a kind of transport ship that allows for the carriage of vehicles.
frigates - likely pure space combat ships, but with the obvious ability to strike a planet.
scouts - probably ships used around for mop up and catching escapees.
monitors - large communication ships?
crushers - most puzzling. Could they be specific anti-world ships, full of atomics?
troop-carriers - self explanatory.
dump-boxes - cargos?

According to Paul's vision, seven of these ships were jammed with conscripts the Baron found.
A later quote reveals those 2000 ships are "fighting ships."

"Ah-h-h-h." The Fremen removed his hand from his weapon. "You think we have the Byzantine corruption. You don’t know us. The Harkonnens have not water enough to buy the smallest
child among us."
But they had the price of Guild passage for more than two thousand fighting ships, Hawat thought. And the size of that price still staggered him.

So we suspect all ships are closely related to combat strategy and deployment, if not direct assault.
It's more than likely easy to presume that scouts are armed, while dump-boxes can be carriers for either vehicles, ground artillery pieces or weapons of unique use.

More about the overall size and weapons of a lighter:

Dune wrote: "Will you look at that thing!" Stilgar whispered.
Paul lay beside him in a slit of rock high on the Shield Wall rim, eye fixed to the collector of a Fremen telescope. The oil lens was focused on a starship lighter exposed by dawn in the basin below them. The tall eastern face of the ship glistened in the at light of the sun, but the shadow side still showed yellow portholes from glowglobes of the night. Beyond the ship, the city of Arrakeen lay cold and gleaming in the light of the northern sun.
It wasn’t the lighter that excited Stilgar’s awe, Paul knew, but the construction for which the lighter was only the centerpost. A single metal hutment, many stories tall, reached out in a thousand-meter circle from the base of the lighter – a tent composed of interlocking metal leaves – the temporary lodging place for five legions of Sardaukar and His Imperial Majesty, the Padishah Emperor Shaddam IV.
From his position squatting at Paul’s left, Gurney Halleck said: "I count nine levels to it. Must be quite a few Sardaukar in there."
"Five legions," Paul said.
"It grows light," Stilgar hissed. "We like it not, your exposing yourself, Muad’Dib. Let us go back into the rocks now."
"I’m perfectly safe here," Paul said.
"That ship mounts projectile weapons," Gurney said.
"They believe us protected by shields," Paul said. "They wouldn’t waste a shot on an unidentified trio even if they saw us."

The lighter could have the equivalent of basic cannons, or designs more elaborate, like howitzers or railguns. Ammunition type is unknown, but is apparently good enough to use on infantry, either by direct hits or blasts.

An interesting bit about the toughness and power of sandworms, and a known flying altitude of ornithopters:

Dune wrote: The ornithopter swept over a bare rock plain. Paul looked down from their two thousand meters’ altitude, saw the wrinkled shadow of their craft and escort. The land beneath seemed
flat, but shadow wrinkles said otherwise.
"Has anyone ever walked out of the desert?" the Duke asked.
Halleck’s music stopped. He leaned forward to catch the answer.
"Not from the deep desert," Kynes said. "Men have walked out of the second zone several times. They’ve survived by crossing the rock areas where worms seldom go."
The timbre of Kynes’ voice held Paul’s attention. He felt his sense come alert the way they were trained to do.
"Ah-h, the worms," the Duke said. "I must see one sometime."
"You may see one today," Kynes said. "Wherever there is spice, there are worms."
"Always?" Halleck asked.
"Always."
"Is there relationship between worm and spice?" the Duke asked.
Kynes turned and Paul saw the pursed lips as the man spoke. "They defend spice sands. Each worm has a–territory. As to the spice . . . who knows? Worm specimens we’ve examined lead us to suspect complicated chemical interchanges within them. We found traces of hydrochloric acid in the ducts, more complicated acid forms elsewhere. I’ll give you my monograph on the subject."
"And a shield’s no defense?" the Duke asked.
"Shields!" Kynes sneered. "Activate a shield within the worm zone and you seal your fate. Worms ignore territory lines, come from far around to attack a shield. No man wearing a shield has ever survived such attack."
"How are worms taken, then?"
"High voltage electrical shock applied separately to each ring segment is the only known way of killing and preserving an entire worm," Kynes said. "They can be stunned and shattered by explosives, but each ring segment has a life of its own. Barring atomics, I know of no explosive powerful enough to destroy a large worm entirely. They’re incredibly tough."

The huge worms require atomics to be taken care of in a significant and efficient way.

Dune wrote: The Duke took the microphone, punched for his command frequency, said: "Two of you toss out your shield generators. By the numbers. You can carry one more man that way. We’re not leaving any men for that monster." He keyed back to the working frequency, barked: "All right, you in Delta Ajax niner! Out! Now! This is a command from your Duke! On the double or I’ll cut that crawler apart with a lasgun!"

Crawlers are no small crafts, require one carryall each for fast transport, and are worked by 26 men.
The only lasgun the Duke could realistically have at hand's reach would be, at best, anything that could correspond to a tripod mounted heavy lasgun, at best.

A note about some of the limitations caused by active personal shield:

Dune wrote:Leto hesitated, almost activated his shield, but refrained because that would limit his movements, his hearing . . . and because the captured shipment of lasguns had left him filled with doubts.

However, movement wise, one such shield could have also let Paul move fast enough to catch the assassin module, so obviously it cannot be that bad.

A note regarding the relative pointlessness of artillery in the age of shields.

Dune wrote: The Baron Vladimir Harkonnen stood at a viewport of the grounded lighter he was using as a command post. Out the port he saw the tame-lighted night of Arrakeen. His attention focused on the distant Shield Wall where his secret weapon was doing its work.
Explosive artillery.
The guns nibbled at the caves where the Duke’s fighting men had retreated for a last ditch stand. Slowly measured bites of orange glare, showers of rock and dust in the brief illumination–and the Duke’s men were being sealed off to die by starvation, caught like animals in their burrows.
The Baron could feel the distant chomping–a drumbeat carried to him through the ship’s metal: broomp . . . broomp. Then: BROOMP-broomp!
Who would think of reviving artillery in this day of shields? The thought was a chuckle in his mind. But it was predictable the Duke’s men would run for those caves. And the Emperor will appreciate my cleverness in preserving the lives of our mutual force.

Later on, the 'thopter piloted by Paul and carrying Jessica was rocked by shellbursts. Obviously, the Harkonnens used a form of artillery still capable of tracking a fast moving ornithopter.

FTL speed and transport abilities:

Dune wrote:"They’re searching for me," Paul said. "Think of that! The finest Guild navigators, men who can quest ahead through time to find the safest course for the fastest Heighliners, all of them seeking me . . .and unable to find me. How they tremble! They know I have their secret here!"
Paul held out his cupped hand. "Without the spice they’re blind!"

Heighliners seem to have different speeds. Is it related to shipment volume, displaced mass or just the ship's age and design?
Foldspace can be immediate though for the fastest ships and best naviguators.
It would be important to remember that if massive armadas were to be moved around.

There are a few inconsistancies throughout all the Dune books, either Frank Herbert's or in the KJA/Brian Herbert books. The sandworms are generally depicted as being extremely tough, though the larger the sandworm, the tougher it gets. However a relatively small sandworm can be killed with large amounts of more conventional explosives. So we might assume that the larger and older the sandworm gets, the tougher it gets. One can only imagine how tough those 450 meter plus sandworms are!

On the subject of FTL travel; initially the Spacing Guild has total control over all interstellar travel in the Imperium by the time of the first Dune book, but that eventually declines signficantly by the changes wrought by the Death of God Emperor Leto II and the advent of the the no-ships with their advanced calculation machines.

How fast are Heighliners? In some passages it's implied that folding space is instantaneous, but in other books, namely the KJA and BH books, there is some passage of time, at least a few hours or so depending on the distance travelled and the implication of the Guild Navigator piloting the ship. It is also revealed that the Holtzman engine is what allows FTL travel, the Guild Navigators are there to replace computers as a way to plot safe courses.
-Mike

Oh yes, a Crawler also known as a Harvester or Harvester Factory is a pretty big vehicle; approximately 120 x 40 meters, so you know that when a sandworm munches on one of these things, it's got to be a BIG sandworm!
-Mike

Mike DiCenso wrote:There are a few inconsistancies throughout all the Dune books, either Frank Herbert's or in the KJA/Brian Herbert books. The sandworms are generally depicted as being extremely tough, though the larger the sandworm, the tougher it gets. However a relatively small sandworm can be killed with large amounts of more conventional explosives. So we might assume that the larger and older the sandworm gets, the tougher it gets. One can only imagine how tough those 450 meter plus sandworms are!

A lasgun would really and seriously damage Leto the worm in his relatively fleshy human looking appendages and his face, clearly implying that his worm skin was just too tough for weapons generally said to be able to cut through anything.

Mike DiCenso wrote:On the subject of FTL travel; initially the Spacing Guild has total control over all interstellar travel in the Imperium by the time of the first Dune book, but that eventually declines signficantly by the changes wrought by the Death of God Emperor Leto II and the advent of the the no-ships with their advanced calculation machines.

The sort of democratization of FTL travel surely didn't help humanity imho. It was a greater guarantee of peace than the Great Convention itself.




Stunners & Lasguns

Dune wrote:The door behind Paul slammed open. He whirled to see reeling violence–shouting, the clash of steel, wax-image faces grimacing in the passage.
With his mother beside him, Paul leaped for the door, seeing Idaho blocking the passage, his blood-pitted eyes there visible through a shield blur, claw hands beyond him, arcs of steel chopping futilely at the shield. There was the orange fire-mouth of a stunner repelled by the shield. Idaho’s blades were through it all, flick-flicking, red dripping from them.
Then Kynes was beside Paul and they threw their weight against the door.
Paul had one last glimpse of Idaho standing against a swarm of Harkonnen uniforms–his jerking, controlled staggers, the black goat hair with a red blossom of death in it. Then the door was closed and there came a snick as Kynes threw the bolts.

[...]

"You’ve a bolt hole out of here," Paul said. "Shall we use it?"
Kynes took a deep breath, said: "This door should hold for at least twenty minutes against all but a lasgun."
"They’ll not use a lasgun for fear we’ve shields on this side," Paul said.
"Those were Sardaukar in Harkonnen uniform," Jessica whispered.
They could hear pounding on the door now, rhythmic blows.
Kynes indicated the cabinets against the right-hand wall, said: "This way." He crossed to the first cabinet, opened a drawer, manipulated a handle within it. The entire wall of cabinets swung open to expose the black mouth of a tunnel. "This door also is plasteel," Kynes said.

A plasteel door, a main one, can hold off a squad of Sardaukars trying to break through with their melee weapons for 20 minutes, but a lasgun would have dispatched it in no time, although the beam lancing through the door would have struck anything standing behind, including a shield if someone wore one.

A stunner shoots what could be described as a fire-mouth projectiles, probably something that would look like two fiery orange jaws forming a bent circle, which bounced off the shield.

The door itself was clearly heavy, requiring all of three to throw their weight against it to close it fast. It also used several bolts for lock, implying again a massive door.




Peace through monopoly, Shield vs. Flood & Artillery

Now something that explains how the Guild holds a large role in the peace over a million worlds, and a confirmation of what would be conventional artillery being useless against shields:

Dune wrote:The Baron sighed. "I give you different instructions about Arrakis this time, Nephew. When last you ruled this place, I held you in strong rein. This time, I have only one requirement."
"M’Lord?"
"Income."
"Income?"
"Have you any idea, Rabban, how much we spent to bring such military force to bear on the Atreides? Do you have even the first inkling of how much the Guild charges for military transport?"
"Expensive, eh?"
"Expensive!"
The Baron shot a fat arm toward Rabban. "If you squeeze Arrakis for every cent it can give us for sixty years, you’ll just barely repay us!"
Rabban opened his mouth, closed it without speaking.
"Expensive," the Baron sneered. "The damnable Guild monopoly on space would’ve ruined us if I hadn’t planned for this expense long ago. You should know, Rabban, that we bore the entire brunt of it. We even paid for transport of the Sardaukar."
And not for the ??rst time, the Baron wondered if there ever would come a day when the Guild might be circumvented. They were insidious–bleeding off just enough to keep the host from objecting until they had you in their ??st where they could force you to pay and pay and pay.
Always, the exorbitant demands rode upon military ventures. "Hazard rates," the oily Guild agents explained. And for every agent you managed to insert as a watchdog in the Guild Bank structure, they put two agents into your system.
Insufferable!
"Income then," Rabban said.
The Baron lowered his arm, made a fist. "You must squeeze."
"And I may do anything I wish as long as I squeeze?"
"Anything."
"The cannons you brought," Rabban said. "Could I–"
"I’m removing them," the Baron said.
"But you–"
"You won’t need such toys. They were a special innovation and are now useless. We need the metal. They cannot go against a shield, Rabban. They were merely the unexpected. It was predictable that the Duke’s men would retreat into cliff caves on this abominable planet. Our cannon merely sealed them in."
"The Fremen don’t use shields."
"You may keep some lasguns if you wish."

The artillery shells used to collapse the entrances of caves would be pointless against shields.

It's good to notice, though, that shields don't seem to like being satured by massive sand storms with wind speeds reaching the 700~800 kph, if not much more (since the Fremen and Paul recognized this storm as particularly exceptional).
I suppose a massive saturation of particles, that presents itself more like a flood, is not something the shields, placed all around the Emperor's ship and hut, enjoyed.





Dune population

Estimated lower end population of Dune at this same time (following the same discussion):

Dune wrote:"Let us have that clear at the outset. What you do understand is how to carry out my orders. Has it occurred to you, nephew, that there are at least five million persons on this planet?"
"Does m’Lord forget that I was his regent-siridar here before? And if m’Lord will forgive me, his estimate may be low. It’s difficult to count a population scattered among sinks and pans the way they are here. And when you consider the Fremen of–"
"The Fremen aren’t worth considering!"
"Forgive me, m’Lord, but the Sardaukar believe

So low that counting the Fremen would really challenge the rough figure of five millions?




Infantry

Dune wrote: LEGION, IMPERIAL: ten brigades (about 30,000 men).

That makes 3000 men per brigade. Which happens to fit exactly with the absolute low end I got earlier on. Yeah, I know, if I had looked in the index, I'd have already found out.
So at least 300,000 (ten legions) men were deployed on Arrakis, half of them being Sardaukar.

Besides, as observed during the quick battle over the multi kilometer wide basin, before Hawat got stunned and captured, we see that some looted Atreides 'thopters could carry around 8 Sardaukars or more, and 'thopter could carry at least 300 soldiers.
That one made a particularly massive explosion when destroyed.

When time comes, I'll check out the details layered by transcriptions of events during Leto II's shieldless era, where battle armour returned.





Shield-lasgun interaction

A final note on shield-lasgun reaction, from Leto II's era:

"Are you injured?" "I am immune to lasguns," Leto lied. "When we get time, I will demonstrate."
"Well, I'm not immune." Idaho said. "And neither are your guards. Every one of us should have a shield belt."
"Shields are banned throughout the Empire." Leto said. "It is a capital offense to have a shield."
"The question of shields," Moneo ventured.
Idaho thought Moneo was asking for an explanation of shields and said: "The belts develop a force field which will repel any object trying to enter at a dangerous speed. They have one major drawback. If you intersect the force field with a lasgun beam, the resultant explosion rivals that of a very large fusion bomb. Attacker and attacked go together."
Moneo only stared at Idaho, who nodded.
"I see why they were banned," Idaho said. "I presume the Great Convention against atomics is still in force and working well?"
"Working even better since we searched out all of the Family atomics and removed them to a safe place," Leto said. "But we do not have time to discuss such matters here."

Big boom eh?





Armies

I'll also look for reference of ground vehicles. In Dune, the Harkonnens used carts, armed with projectiles weapons. But most battles were won by air superiority with lasgun armed 'thopters.
There's a fact that House Atreides also used a navy on Caladan, along aircrafts, in this talk of strategy, since Duke Leto fully knew the trap he walked into:

Dune wrote: "We’re working for a solid and permanent planetary base," the Duke said. "We have to keep a large percentage of the people happy–especially the Fremen."
"Most especially the Fremen," Hawat agreed.
"Our supremacy on Caladan," the Duke said, "depended on sea and air power. Here, we must develop something I choose to call desert power. This may include air power, but it’s possible it may not. I call your attention to the lack of ’thopter shields." He shook his head.
"The Harkonnens relied on turnover from off planet for some of their key personnel. We don’t dare. Each new lot would have its quota of provocateurs."
"Then we’ll have to be content with far less pro??t and a reduced harvest," Hawat said.
"Our output the ??rst two seasons should be down a third from the Harkonnen average."
"There it is," the Duke said, "exactly as we expected. We’ll have to move fast with the Fremen. I’d like five full battalions of Fremen troops before the ??rst CHOAM audit."
"That’s not much time, Sire," Hawat said.
"We don’t have much time, as you well know. They’ll be here with Sardaukar disguised as Harkonnens at the first opportunity. How many do you think they’ll ship in, Thufir?"
"Four or five battalions all told, Sire. No more. Guild troop-transport costs being what they are."
"Then five battalions of Fremen plus our own forces ought to do it. Let us have a few captive Sardaukar to parade in front of the Landsraad Council and matters will be much different– profits or no profits."

Well, Hawat didn't expect that the Baron's attack would be a very long funded and planned affair.