Take that Packing Crates

[Flectarn]

Collateral Damage from a phaser shot in "The Enemy Within"
doesn't say what the setting was, but it was probably Kill

[Mike DiCenso]

The Warsies would probably just say that the phaser did enough damage to the transporter system to cause it to explode, rather than most of the energy having been provided by the phaser itself.

"Hide and Q"[TNG. Season 1], and other similar examples are what you want because they are examples of high DET-like effects against unshielded rock or objects.
-Mike

[Roondar]

There's also the bit where Worf cuts out a metal plate using a handphaser.

It's at the start of that episode where Geordi gets attacked by the 'dog-turned-goo' at the end.

[Ted C]

It's not that Warsies dispute the fact that phasers can do considerable damage with a single shot, it's that they usually don't. Why do they so rarely use that kind of firepower that hiding behind a packing crate or small rock formation is usually effective?

Unrelated: most of your images are broken (at least on all of my viewings), and the one one that comes through is so wide I have to scroll right. Annoying.

[l33telboi]

It's not that Warsies dispute the fact that phasers can do considerable damage with a single shot.

In my experience this is usually exactly the case. In fact, most debates tend to go a little like this:

"Phasers are very versatile, they can stun people and they can fire beams that are in the megajoule regi-"

"Then why don't they penetrate packing crates?"

To note though, you are correct that the fact that this setting isn't always used merits investigation and explanation. But acknowledging the raw power is there is also required. Unfortunately most of the time it’s not.

[Praeothmin]

Why do they so rarely use that kind of firepower that hiding behind a packing crate or small rock formation is usually effective?

I would say for the exat same reason we never see SW ship use their Gigaton of firepower in fights... ;)

Seriously, I've always found that funy that they say that about ST Phasers, but then accept without even batting an eyelash that SW fighters have Kiloton weaponry when it has never been demonstrated onscreen...

[Mike DiCenso]

It's not that Warsies dispute the fact that phasers can do considerable damage with a single shot, it's that they usually don't. Why do they so rarely use that kind of firepower that hiding behind a packing crate or small rock formation is usually effective?

Funny, by "packing crate", I assume you mean the drums that Sisko and Eddington used as barricades in "Blaze of Glory":

SISKO
Duridium. That should hold them
off for a while.
(turns to Eddington)
I thought you said the Jem'Hadar
would never find this place.

EDDINGTON
I didn't think they would.
(a beat)
I was wrong.

So, what is duridium, and what are it's physical properties?
-Mike

[Ted C]

Funny, by "packing crate", I assume you mean the drums that Sisko and Eddington used as barricades in "Blaze of Glory":

SISKO
Duridium. That should hold them off for a while.

So, what is duridium, and what are it's physical properties?
-Mike

Off the top of my head, you also see packing crates used for cover in "Too Short a Season" and ordinary rock formations in "Gambit".

And what is it about phasers that makes the composition of the target so important to their effectiveness. They can make humans disappear, but they apparently do nothing to "toranium inlay".

[Praeothmin]

And what is it about phasers that makes the composition of the target so important to their effectiveness. They can make humans disappear, but they apparently do nothing to "toranium inlay".

Who knows?
But we have seen them blow up rocks (safe to say at high setting), heat up material well over 2000 degrees Celcius, and blow up rock slides (ST: Insurrection).
Phasers are known to have multiple settings, and are known to be adjustable to do many things.

But Phasers aren't the only weapons that behave strangely.
Blasters have been seen to blow up drones, blow through armor, and yet only singe Leia...
Which could normally be attributed to variable yields or settings.

Same difference with Phasers... :)

[Mike DiCenso]

Funny, by "packing crate", I assume you mean the drums that Sisko and Eddington used as barricades in "Blaze of Glory":

SISKO
Duridium. That should hold them off for a while.

So, what is duridium, and what are it's physical properties?
-Mike

Off the top of my head, you also see packing crates used for cover in "Too Short a Season" and ordinary rock formations in "Gambit".

Actually no. The Mordan and E-D forces in "Too Short a Season" use some kind of rock or plasteel debris, a large metal tank and some drum barrels similar to those in "Blaze of Glory" (can you say "Prop reuse"?):

http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ort185.jpg

http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ort179.jpg

A strike from the Mordan phasers does this rather pyrotechnic blast:

http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ort177.jpg

Earlier we see Worf and Tasha cut through a "plasteel" wall to gain access into another tunnel for the way team:

http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ort169.jpg

As with all Trekcore images, cut and paste.

And what is it about phasers that makes the composition of the target so important to their effectiveness. They can make humans disappear, but they apparently do nothing to "toranium inlay".

As has already been pointed out, we know from inumerable statements from TOS to TNG and even ST:ENT that phasers have variable settings and effects. What Mirror Archer in "In a Mirror, Darkly, Part II" says is that a TOS-era phaser's highest setting doesn't vaporize you in a DET-way, but rather disintigrates you. Exactly how composition can effect things is a big unknown because we have, in fact, seen ordinary rock get blasted as though with a multi-megajoule explosive, and even vaped away just like with people. Praeothmin has already cited some examples, but for phasers vaping rock, look to DS9's "Rapture", along with other examples that can be found here. The "Chain of Command" example is rather interesting in comparison because it is stated to be setting 16 (apparently the highest setting for that type of TNG-era phaser), which burrows a hole like the "Rapture" example does, however there is a thin, white haze that drifts upward, and blackened scorch marks are left on the rock immediately above the newly created hole. In theory, there is no reason for this kind of setting to be used, except where the shooter might be caught in whatever that is, or it is too power intensive. But really, it is simply a plot device since if Our Heroes went around doing that on a regular basis, it would end most conflicts before they even begin!
-Mike

[Ted C]

But Phasers aren't the only weapons that behave strangely. Blasters have been seen to blow up drones, blow through armor, and yet only singe Leia, which could normally be attributed to variable yields or settings.

Blasters seem to vary more with the model used than the setting, although we know that some blasters actually do have a stun setting. We see Han's heavy blaster pistol blow chunks out of a concrete wall, but Stormtrooper carbines generally do less damage. I'd say there's a trade-off between firepower and number of shots involved.

As for Leia's arm, I really don't think she got directly hit. I think the shot hit the wall next to her, and the stream of hot metal caused her injury.

Actually no. The Mordan and E-D forces in "Too Short a Season" use some kind of rock or plasteel debris, a large metal tank and some drum barrels similar to those in "Blaze of Glory" (can you say "Prop reuse"?):

I think the drums are worth about as much as the classic "packing crates", but the real point is that we know phasers can blow through such things. In particular, it should be a no-brainer to blow through the loose piles of rock: we've seen phasers blast through similar obstructions.

The question is why not do it?

Hypotheses:
- High drain on the phaser's energy supply.
- High risk: a clumsy shot with a phaser at that setting might bring the roof down.

A strike from the Mordan phasers does this rather pyrotechnic blast:

http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ort177.jpg

It would be nice to have an "after shot" to see if the drum was seriously damaged.

Earlier we see Worf and Tasha cut through a "plasteel" wall to gain access into another tunnel for the way team:

http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ort169.jpg

Plasteel? Another organic material, perhaps? I'm just pointing out that phasers seem to work best against organic materials.

As has already been pointed out, we know from inumerable statements from TOS to TNG and even ST:ENT that phasers have variable settings and effects.

This has been known for ages.

What Mirror Archer in "In a Mirror, Darkly, Part II" says is that a TOS-era phaser's highest setting doesn't vaporize you in a DET-way, but rather disintigrates you.

Also pretty obvious from the lack of explosive effects from turning nearly 80 kg of water into vapor in a fraction of a second.

Exactly how composition can effect things is a big unknown because we have, in fact, seen ordinary rock get blasted as though with a multi-megajoule explosive, and even vaped away just like with people. Praeothmin has already cited some examples, but for phasers vaping rock, look to DS9's "Rapture", along with other examples that can be found here. The "Chain of Command" example is rather interesting in comparison because it is stated to be setting 16 (apparently the highest setting for that type of TNG-era phaser), which burrows a hole like the "Rapture" example does, however there is a thin, white haze that drifts upward, and blackened scorch marks are left on the rock immediately above the newly created hole. In theory, there is no reason for this kind of setting to be used, except where the shooter might be caught in whatever that is, or it is too power intensive. But really, it is simply a plot device since if Our Heroes went around doing that on a regular basis, it would end most conflicts before they even begin!
-Mike

OK, we definitely do the the "vape" effect on rock. I wonder if the composition of the rock makes a difference. In any case, the weapon clearly needs to be cranked up to maximum to have that effect.

I suppose any kind of quantitative data on how many shots you get depending on the setting would be too much to hope for.

[Mike DiCenso]

Actually no. The Mordan and E-D forces in "Too Short a Season" use some kind of rock or plasteel debris, a large metal tank and some drum barrels similar to those in "Blaze of Glory" (can you say "Prop reuse"?):

I think the drums are worth about as much as the classic "packing crates", but the real point is that we know phasers can blow through such things. In particular, it should be a no-brainer to blow through the loose piles of rock: we've seen phasers blast through similar obstructions.

The question is why not do it?

Hypotheses:
- High drain on the phaser's energy supply.
- High risk: a clumsy shot with a phaser at that setting might bring the roof down.

Unless you know more about the barrel's stated material's properties, then we can't say anything, except that they can hold off Jem'Hadar phased poleron weaponary "for a while", and even then there is some uncertaintiy there.

We certainly have, and I think in the Mordan tunnel case, it is an important reason since we have seen that a few stray phaser shots from Jake Sisko in "Nor to the Battle the Strong..." was enough to collapse the ceiling of a cave, and in "Cloud Minders", Kirk was able to collapse a tunnel with his phaser to seal himself inside. It would a matter of if you think you could get real lucky. The E-D way team had another reason in that they were out to rescue hostages and probably did not want to risk accidently killing any of them. The implication from dialog is also that the E-D way team was using stun, while the Mordan forces were definately using a kill setting.

A strike from the Mordan phasers does this rather pyrotechnic blast:

http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ort177.jpg

It would be nice to have an "after shot" to see if the drum was seriously damaged.

Earlier we see Worf and Tasha cut through a "plasteel" wall to gain access into another tunnel for the way team:

http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ort169.jpg

Plasteel? Another organic material, perhaps? I'm just pointing out that phasers seem to work best against organic materials.

No, we have seen rock vaporized, concrete vaporized, have statements that alloys can be vaporized (on the appropriate settings), ect. That some metals or composites might be reslilant is no more suprising than finding out that tank armor can withstand megajoule level hand grenade explosives, or a 10 metric ton slab of steel can withstand being vaporized by even a gigawatt laser.

As has already been pointed out, we know from inumerable statements from TOS to TNG and even ST:ENT that phasers have variable settings and effects.

This has been known for ages.

But not readily acknowledged in discussions of this kind by the Pro-Wars side of things.

What Mirror Archer in "In a Mirror, Darkly, Part II" says is that a TOS-era phaser's highest setting doesn't vaporize you in a DET-way, but rather disintigrates you.

Also pretty obvious from the lack of explosive effects from turning nearly 80 kg of water into vapor in a fraction of a second.

Well, yes. But the amount of actual energy this process takes is still in question. All we know is that a phaser rifle in "The Mind's Eye" was outputting 1 megawatt in a constant, steady stream. Unfortunately, the phaser at the time was being aimed at a special target reciever of some kind as part of the tests and not at something we can use to gauge how much energy = what effect, nor is any setting stated.

Exactly how composition can effect things is a big unknown because we have, in fact, seen ordinary rock get blasted as though with a multi-megajoule explosive, and even vaped away just like with people. Praeothmin has already cited some examples, but for phasers vaping rock, look to DS9's "Rapture", along with other examples that can be found here. The "Chain of Command" example is rather interesting in comparison because it is stated to be setting 16 (apparently the highest setting for that type of TNG-era phaser), which burrows a hole like the "Rapture" example does, however there is a thin, white haze that drifts upward, and blackened scorch marks are left on the rock immediately above the newly created hole. In theory, there is no reason for this kind of setting to be used, except where the shooter might be caught in whatever that is, or it is too power intensive. But really, it is simply a plot device since if Our Heroes went around doing that on a regular basis, it would end most conflicts before they even begin!
-Mike

OK, we definitely do the the "vape" effect on rock. I wonder if the composition of the rock makes a difference. In any case, the weapon clearly needs to be cranked up to maximum to have that effect.

I suppose any kind of quantitative data on how many shots you get depending on the setting would be too much to hope for.

A ship's phaser can effortlessly drill through granite, which is one of the toughest and densest forms of rock. Hell, in the Dominion War, we have seen starship phasers vape or melt large sections of starship hulls.

As for power requirements; we can gauge that roughly for a TOS Type-II phaser pistol since we know from "The Omega Glory" that rogue starship captain Tracy and his Khom henchmen used up four phasers' power packs, plus several extra power packs in apparently vaporizing "thousands" of Yang warriors. At least Tracy had his phaser set on "vape" mode as he fires the last shots from it and when one of those shots nails a rain barrel Kirk ducks behind at one point, it vapes the barrel.
-Mike