Power of the Enterprise's Warp Core

[Mike DiCenso]

Jedi Master Spock wrote:

I actually mentioned where the figure came from - warp core power generation figures, but apparently I didn't stress it heavily enough for all spectators.

The deflector beam weapon is stated to use the full maximum warp core output of the Enterprise, which - by the fact that the Enterprise can go to warp right next to a sun-like Star - is then around 100 GT/s. The total energy of the beam, then - recall that the beam is sustained for quite some time - is actually on the order of teratons, which fairly closely matches the ICS figures.

It could, by some evidence, be up to two orders of magnitude higher on the rate, but I find that rate of antimatter burn mildly implausible.

I finally found that posting on ST.Com. If you want a somewhat more conservative estimate; use the 12.75 million terawatt (three gigatons per second) power output of the E-D warpcore stated in "True Q". Given that the E-D fired it's deflector weapon for at least 30 seconds, that gives us a total equivalent delivered of 90 gigatons!
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

Jedi Master Spock wrote:

I actually mentioned where the figure came from - warp core power generation figures, but apparently I didn't stress it heavily enough for all spectators.

The deflector beam weapon is stated to use the full maximum warp core output of the Enterprise, which - by the fact that the Enterprise can go to warp right next to a sun-like Star - is then around 100 GT/s. The total energy of the beam, then - recall that the beam is sustained for quite some time - is actually on the order of teratons, which fairly closely matches the ICS figures.

It could, by some evidence, be up to two orders of magnitude higher on the rate, but I find that rate of antimatter burn mildly implausible.

I finally found that posting on ST.Com. If you want a somewhat more conservative estimate; use the 12.75 million terawatt (three gigatons per second) power output of the E-D warpcore stated in "True Q". Given that the E-D fired it's deflector weapon for at least 30 seconds, that gives us a total equivalent delivered of 90 gigatons!
-Mike

Huh, you mean the "twelve point seven-five billion gigawatts per second".

This isn't even a reliable number. If at least the high figure was correct, you'd have a point.

[Mike DiCenso]

In the actual, as-filmed episode's dialog, Data never says the "per second" part. He is cut off by a blaring klaxon, so whatever he was going to say, is never spoken. So you can put in there whatever you like to have it make sense, such as "12.75 billion gigawatts per 140 kilograms of reactants", ect.
-Mike

[Jedi Master Spock]

In the actual, as-filmed episode's dialog, Data never says the "per second" part. He is cut off by a blaring klaxon, so whatever he was going to say, is never spoken. So you can put in there whatever you like to have it make sense, such as "12.75 billion gigawatts per 140 kilograms of reactants", ect.
-Mike

I am surprised nobody has pointed this out to me before.

That's actually fairly key when you consider the mechanics of debate, rather than simple reasonable interpretation, as the script is not actually canon in Trek. If Data simply says "We're generating 12.75 million terawatts," that rather sharply eliminates the semantics problem of parsing "watts per."

[l33telboi]

Funny thing i just noticed. Wouldn't watts per second mean J/s^2. Wouldn't that imply that the energy output is increasing by 12.75 million terawatts per second. In other words, after two seconds of generating power, the ship would be generating 25.5 million terawatts, and after a full minute 765 million terawatts.

Yeah, i'm only kidding. Just something i thought quite funny about the whole thing.

[Mike DiCenso]

In the actual, as-filmed episode's dialog, Data never says the "per second" part. He is cut off by a blaring klaxon, so whatever he was going to say, is never spoken. So you can put in there whatever you like to have it make sense, such as "12.75 billion gigawatts per 140 kilograms of reactants", ect.
-Mike

I am surprised nobody has pointed this out to me before.

That's actually fairly key when you consider the mechanics of debate, rather than simple reasonable interpretation, as the script is not actually canon in Trek. If Data simply says "We're generating 12.75 million terawatts," that rather sharply eliminates the semantics problem of parsing "watts per."

Here's more accurately how it is stated in the episode:

Amanda : 'It's hard to imagine how much energy is harnessed in there.'

Data : 'Imagination is not necessary; the scale is readily quantifiable. We are presently generating twelve point seven five billion gigawatts per-' [cut off by alarm].

Data is just about to say something beyond "per", but is cut off rather than the whole "per second" part. I know that may complicate things, but it's still far better than the full "per second" part.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

Thank Poe over on SDN for resolving - to some degree - the conundrum of the droids getting picked off:

But now there was a new threat. Unable to bring the weapons of their warship to bear in an effective manner, the Trade Federation command dispatched a squad of starfighters. Small, sleek, robot attack ships, they consisted of twin compartments attached to a rounded, swept-back head. As they roared out of the battleship bays, their compartments opened into long slits that exposed their laser guns.

So these are the attacks of approaching fighters, according to the novelization? This would help explain both the relatively low power, and helps explain how so many misses could suddenly transform into direct hits on the astromechs.

Unfortunately, it's not entirely consistent with the script, which Poe also posted an excerpt of, so it is not perhaps as good an explanation as it could be.

Hell, it's not entirely consistant with the movie, never mind the script. The movie never shows the Queen's ship dart past any fightercraft on it's way past the blockade, ala the way the Falcon and other Rebel ships do in ROTJ during the opening of the Battle of Endor.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

In the actual, as-filmed episode's dialog, Data never says the "per second" part. He is cut off by a blaring klaxon, so whatever he was going to say, is never spoken. So you can put in there whatever you like to have it make sense, such as "12.75 billion gigawatts per 140 kilograms of reactants", ect.
-Mike

I am surprised nobody has pointed this out to me before.

That's actually fairly key when you consider the mechanics of debate, rather than simple reasonable interpretation, as the script is not actually canon in Trek. If Data simply says "We're generating 12.75 million terawatts," that rather sharply eliminates the semantics problem of parsing "watts per."

Here's more accurately how it is stated in the episode:

Amanda : 'It's hard to imagine how much energy is harnessed in there.'

Data : 'Imagination is not necessary; the scale is readily quantifiable. We are presently generating twelve point seven five billion gigawatts per-' [cut off by alarm].

Data is just about to say something beyond "per", but is cut off rather than the whole "per second" part. I know that may complicate things, but it's still far better than the full "per second" part.
-Mike

I guess lip reading will settle this.
Damn.

Thank Poe over on SDN for resolving - to some degree - the conundrum of the droids getting picked off:

But now there was a new threat. Unable to bring the weapons of their warship to bear in an effective manner, the Trade Federation command dispatched a squad of starfighters. Small, sleek, robot attack ships, they consisted of twin compartments attached to a rounded, swept-back head. As they roared out of the battleship bays, their compartments opened into long slits that exposed their laser guns.

So these are the attacks of approaching fighters, according to the novelization? This would help explain both the relatively low power, and helps explain how so many misses could suddenly transform into direct hits on the astromechs.

Unfortunately, it's not entirely consistent with the script, which Poe also posted an excerpt of, so it is not perhaps as good an explanation as it could be.

Hell, it's not entirely consistant with the movie, never mind the script. The movie never shows the Queen's ship dart past any fightercraft on it's way past the blockade, ala the way the Falcon and other Rebel ships do in ROTJ during the opening of the Battle of Endor.
-Mike

Indeed. Zero fighters. Zero spinning.
Just leaves pulse targetting, eventually, turrets having a bad aim and droids being destroyed, when bolts hit.

[Mike DiCenso]

Mr. Oragahn wrote:

I guess lip reading will settle this.
Damn.

I don't believe that would help, either. IIRC, Data literally stops speaking when the klaxon goes off. So no lip movements.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

I don't believe that would help, either. IIRC, Data literally stops speaking when the klaxon goes off. So no lip movements.
-Mike

Mr. Oragahn wrote:

Yes, so it can be anything, notably like x watts per hour, or per day.

Er, no. Not very likely, an still make any real sense. Data is already giving us a clear power over time statement since he is using watts, not joules. Nor is Data speaking in terms of anything like kilowatt-hours, or in this case, gigawatt-hours.

Rather the idea that the E-D warp core is generating 12.75 billion gigawatts per some other unit, such as reactants and efficiency makes much better sense. Anything else is convoluted and unnecessary.
-Mike

[l33telboi]

I dunno. I like the "X watts per reactor test cycle" or something to that effect. Would explain both why the ship was generating so much power and the 'per' part.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Rather the idea that the E-D warp core is generating 12.75 billion gigawatts per some other unit, such as reactants and efficiency makes much better sense. Anything else is convoluted and unnecessary.
-Mike

The thing being that this millions of gigawatts don't seem to fit well with all estimations I've heard about power generation and beam weapons in Trek.

What do you think of this btw: http://st-v-sw.net/STSWgigaper.html

[l33telboi]

The thing being that this millions of gigawatts don't seem to fit well with all estimations I've heard about power generation and beam weapons in Trek.

What do you think of this btw: http://st-v-sw.net/STSWgigaper.html

There's really no reason to think that phasers should be able to fire with the same power as is generated from the Warp Core. There can very well be design aspects to the phasers that limit the amount of power they can output, the weapons might melt or explode if you try to pump too much energy through them for instance. Or then the disintergration thingy they do is exceedingly power hungry. In fact, IIRC, in "Best of Both Worlds" they rigged the reactor directly to the deflector dish, because there was no other way to get that amount of power channeled at the Cube. If they could've done so with phasers, there wouldn't have been any need for this elaborate setup.

In any case, 140kg of matter/anti-matter isn't all that much. The linked too article talks about the size of humans and derives density from that. But there's nothing saying that that matter/anti-matter has to have the density similar to a human. And humans are rather badly shaped in comparison if you want to use them in reactor systems.

If this was the continued power output from the ship, then it would be a problem, because it would mean the ship has an ungodly amount of matter/anti-matter on board. But this could very well just be brief power spike, on average, the ship shouldn't need to create that large amounts of power.

And it does fit with what Harry Kim says about the power running through one conduit, 5 billion gigawatts. Yes, billion, not million like 2047 says in his article. There was actually a thread devoted to this on SB.

[Jedi Master Spock]

Actually, something else we know from Voyager is that the operating pressure within the warp core is very intense - 2.5-50 megapascals - and the temperature very high (millions of kelvins).

I'll get more specific. "Caretaker" establishes the minimum pressure to sustain the dilithium reaction as 2500 kilopascals, and "Twisted" places 53 megapascals as the critical pressure, beyond which the warp core will blow. "Persistence of Vision" involves Kes running the warp core through a sequence involving a 3 million kelvin temperature.

Let's take those figures for a moment and run with them.

We'll simplify the problem a little bit. Pretend that the deuterium is a monoatomic gas at this temperature. (This is a very good approximation, incidentally, for superhot plasma.) We can then apply the ideal gas law (PV=nRT), solving for volume per mole (V/n=RT/P). This gives us a volume of 0.5-10 m^3 for V/n, corresponding to a density of 0.2-4 grams per cubic meter. So, if we take the cross section of the core itself to be a square meter (I don't feel like scaling it right now), we'd have to be shoving them through at 14-110 km/s to be getting 5e18 watts' worth of matter through (between matter and antimatter).

We might ask how fast our little deuterium atoms are moving in the first place. Temperature is a measure of average kinetic energy. Based on their average kinetic energy, we expect them to be moving an average of sqrt(3*kT/m)=200,000 meters per second at 3 million kelvins.

This is the rate at which the warp plasma would naturally disperse, so it's actually somewhat reasonable to ballpark this as the maximum acceptable speed of the warp plasma; if we plug in a rate of 200,000 m^3/s at 53 megapascals, we get 76 exawatts as a top end Voyager power rate. If matter and antimatter streams are coming in from opposite directions, then we can halve the velocity. Which reminds me of a couple key points about "matter/antimatter ratios." I'll get to that later.

Can I believe that ballpark? Yes. That's just enough to bring the 700,000 ton Voyager to warp against a 360 m/s g field assuming ~100% efficiency.

It may seem difficult to believe antimatter is zooming along at tens of kilometers per second going through a warp core - but when you're dealing with the e6 range of temperature and pressure, those kinds of velocities are quite believable.

The more important problem isn't funneling high velocity warp plasma through the warp core; it's storing the fuel.

[Mike DiCenso]

l33telboi wrote:

If this was the continued power output from the ship, then it would be a problem, because it would mean the ship has an ungodly amount of matter/anti-matter on board. But this could very well just be brief power spike, on average, the ship shouldn't need to create that large amounts of power.

And it does fit with what Harry Kim says about the power running through one conduit, 5 billion gigawatts. Yes, billion, not million like 2047 says in his article. There was actually a thread devoted to this on SB.

Actually, here is the dialog from the as-filmed and aired episode transcript via Chakoteya's Transcripts Site:


SEVEN: It is. The optical assembly is properly aligned. I'm ready to access the main power supply.
KIM: After you. Wait! What are you doing? There are five million gigawatts running through there!
SEVEN: The exoskeleton on this limb can withstand it.
KIM: That's all well and good, but there are safety procedures we've got to follow.
SEVEN: The procedures are a waste of time.
KIM: Maybe so, but you've been assigned to me and I say we do this by the book. All right?
SEVEN: All right

Five million gigawatts, or five thousand terawatts were flowing through the main power supply conduit. This from a ship that is much smaller than the Galaxy class E-D, which at impulse power, nor is in a combat-ready mode. In that SB.com thread, I think people are just hearing what they want to hear.

As for how long the E-D or Voyager can sustain these power levels, it really depends on how they store their fuel. Much of the antimatter may be stored in a very highly densified form, like iron. This may explain the need to heat up the antimatter and matter beforehand so it can be turned into a form that allows for maximum efficent interaction in the warp core.
-Mike