"Star Wars: Death Star" and the destruction of Ald

For reviews and close examination of sources - episode reviews, book reviews, raves and rants about short stories, et cetera.
Post Reply
User avatar
Mr. Oragahn
Admiral
Posts: 6865
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:58 am
Location: Paradise Mountain

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun Nov 18, 2007 12:48 am

SailorSaturn13 wrote:

But take that with a weapon that needs to work from matter and convert, or at least do something with it. Put a particleless shield, and your weapon is nearly pointless, safe if it can deal some hefty DET.
This ignores the VERY REAL possibility that this exotic shot would pierce(i.e. fly into without interacting with) the shields, like the Thalaron Beam.
Well, if it ignores shields... that's another can of worms.

May you please refine your proposition please?

User avatar
SailorSaturn13
Bridge Officer
Posts: 214
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2006 12:45 am

Post by SailorSaturn13 » Sun Nov 18, 2007 8:17 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
SailorSaturn13 wrote:

But take that with a weapon that needs to work from matter and convert, or at least do something with it. Put a particleless shield, and your weapon is nearly pointless, safe if it can deal some hefty DET.
This ignores the VERY REAL possibility that this exotic shot would pierce(i.e. fly into without interacting with) the shields, like the Thalaron Beam.
Well, if it ignores shields... that's another can of worms.

May you please refine your proposition please?
Basically... EVERYTHING is a particle. Gravitons are, too. Therefore, if the exotic particles injteract with shield particles, they will produce energy there, and if they don't they will hit the target. You will need to find an inertating particle to prevent damage.

User avatar
Mr. Oragahn
Admiral
Posts: 6865
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:58 am
Location: Paradise Mountain

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:55 pm

SailorSaturn13 wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
SailorSaturn13 wrote: This ignores the VERY REAL possibility that this exotic shot would pierce(i.e. fly into without interacting with) the shields, like the Thalaron Beam.
Well, if it ignores shields... that's another can of worms.

May you please refine your proposition please?
Basically... EVERYTHING is a particle. Gravitons are, too. Therefore, if the exotic particles injteract with shield particles, they will produce energy there, and if they don't they will hit the target. You will need to find an inertating particle to prevent damage.
It would depend on the kind of particle reaction your're expecting; not all reactions produce energy; or if shields do use particles to boot.

User avatar
Mr. Oragahn
Admiral
Posts: 6865
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:58 am
Location: Paradise Mountain

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:45 am

Vympel wrote:Watch the semantics of SFJtards when they try and pretend the Death Star novel helps them. They'll use anything other than what the novel actually says. The quote explicitly says that much of the planet's mass is given a superluminal boost into hyperspace by the superlaser, fed by the hypermatter reactor. Here's what they turn it into:-
And how do you precisely calc that?
Any ship that would go into hyperspace would undergo a "superluminal boost" in theory. Yet, I don't think anyone will claim that all hyperspace capable ships can generate infinite amounts of power at will.
Not even the Death Star, especially since its reactor only allows for a limited power output, not an unlimited one.
So that "superluminal boost" is just fancy talking, nothing more.
Vympel wrote:
Me wrote:Especially since we know that a significant mass of the planet is sucked into hyperspace through an unquantifiable mechanism, which means that all those nifty calcs about energy needed to overcome gravity binding are in need of some severe lowering as well.
See? The Death Star isn't boosting much of a planet's mass past c, it's just making the mass get sucked in! Why, the firepower to do that is probably no more than a few megawatts!
Megawatts? I think gigawatts is more likely.

Notice, please, that I only talked about overcoming gravity binding. I didn't say it would exclude energy requirements to get that good load of planet mass into hyperspace.
But the fact remains: the calcs were originally based on the energy necessary to blow the whole planet's mass up. But "the whole planet's mass" is the part that has changed, because instead of blowing it up, a huge portion of the planet goes into hyperspace now, by funky mechanisms which can't be quantified, especially since there's no hyperspace generator involved.
So we just don't know how that happened on its own.

The other real point that you miss is that you can't use the "turbolaser downscaling" method anymore, because it's precisely shown that the superlaser is not a turbolaser. It has been retconned.

Besides, since the first Death Star was about to fire on Yavin IV, fully charged and all that (it requires at the very least a bit more than one hour, if not three, to get a solution ready), what is your explanation about the lack of nova-like effects when the battle station explodes?

There's something to explain here. Because at the very least, e32 joules of energy, if not e38 joules like it's often heard, that's still going to cause massive mayhem on a planet that's located only 6 planetary diameters from the explosion.
I'm not even asking how the rebel fighters could have survived that, without any evidence that they made an hyperspace jump (Vader did something like that though, a blind jump, but he was closer to the station, not running away with the station on his back).

User avatar
Mr. Oragahn
Admiral
Posts: 6865
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:58 am
Location: Paradise Mountain

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun Mar 16, 2008 2:23 am

This was initially part of a summary of the various points tackled in SBC's Star Wars weapons' strenght thread.
The topic pretty much ended on page 4. I was waiting for a reply from Vympel/Leo1, but none came within a dozen days (counthing the secondary short lived thread).

But I'll report just the bit that deals with the Death Star, since I believe I came to an interpretation that fits with most things revealed thus far.






Death Star novel: superlasers

It's been noted that there was a discrepancy between the power levels, effects and recharge time of various firing solutions.

Here's some book excerpts (originally published and more detailed here):
DS novel wrote:Tenn looked at the images from the targeting cam. He still had his hand on the firing lever. He released it and stared, watching as the very air on the prison world caught fire in a runaway planetary holocaust. Seismographic sensors showed that massive groundquakes had begun, rumbling down into the bowels of the planet. Giant waves in the ocean, generated by the shifting of tectonic plates, rushed for the shores of the big continent. Volcanoes spewed lava. Clouds of steam and volcanic ash began to rapidly obscure the surface from view—but not fast enough.
He had just killed everything on the planet Despayre. If all life wasn't dead already, it would be soon.
The CO moved to look over his shoulder. He didn't congratulate Tenn on the shot; he just stood there.
"Stang," Tenn said.
The CO nodded. "Yeah."


COMMAND CENTER, OVERBRIDGE, DEATH STAR

Motti said, "Engineering says the capacitors will be recharged in an hour and thirteen minutes."
Tarkin watched the projection as the effects of the beam manifested on the planet. By the time the second pulse was ready for discharge, there wouldn't be anything alive on the world below them to care. The chain reaction was massive. And at only one-third of the power that would be available when it was fully operational.
DS novel wrote: SUPERLASER FIRE CONTROL, THETA SECTOR, DEATH STAR

An hour and fifteen minutes after the first beam, Tenn fired the second one.
The planet Despayre, already scorched lifeless and beset with cataclysmic groundquakes and volcanism, began to shake like some tormented creature in its death throes. Massive cracks, thousands of kilometers long and tens of klicks wide, striated the world. Mountains collapsed in one hemisphere as they jutted up and rose in another. It was impossible to see all this directly, of course, because of the cloud cover that had blanketed the surface, but the IR and VSI scopes showed everything all too clearly. The molten core of the globe, already venting through innumerable new volcanoes, oozed to the surface and produced oceans of lava that spread across the land. This was how the planet had been born, and this was how it was dying.
An hour and nineteen minutes later, when Tenn fired the third beam that blew the charred and burned-out cinder apart, shattering it into billions of pieces, it seemed almost pointless. Everybody and everything on it had already been roasted, scalded, or drowned. The system's gravity twisted as the planetary well ceased to exist. Shield sensors quietly recorded the thousands of fragments, from the size of pebbles to that of mountains, deflected from the station.
Sweet Queen Quinella. A whole planet, destroyed. Just like that. No matter how tough you thought you were, that was hard to stomach.
Especially when you were the one who had pulled the lever.

I suggested a theory that fits with both Despayre and Alderaan, and "explains" the lack of rings for the former.
Me wrote:Shot A & B are shown having relatively same effects. Shot B is just more of shot A, which amplifies the destruction a tad.
Shot B is said to be 1/3 of what the DS will be capable of.
Shot B takes x minutes to prepare.
Shot C takes x+6 minutes to prepare, and can't be more than what the DS is capable of at that moment.

Yet, shots A & B are roughly the same in effects and magnitudes, but shot C is way above, very near Alderaan level, which is orders of magnitude above the first shots, while charge times are close.

More. The descriptions of shot B do not correspond to the alleged mass super dispersal (> e32 J). They are said to be 1/3 of what the Death Star will be capable of, though.
As we can see, the level of destruction, while not corresponding to anything that would send large amounts of rock mass into space, is actually much closer to the initial blast Alderaan withstood from the superlaser.


Hence my pet theory. Not perfect, but way better than anything else I've seen thus far. The real problem is the lack of rings. Had the writers tried to retcon Despayre a tad and added rings there, it would have been fine.
That said, the fact that the DS wasn't capable of a typical Alderaan blast is possibly the explanation here.

The lack of rings could be explained in another way: there was no transfer of mass into hyperspace (which creates the rings), BUT there was an hyperspace fracture wich poured vast amounts of energy into the planet's core, multiplying the effects many folds.
We, again, return on a principle of exotic saturation.

Threshold 1: Energy boost.
Threshold 2: Mass transfer. Rings.
In case this isn't clear, it means that there are two plateaus to be reached by the superlaser. The first plateau triggers a first form of exotic reaction which manages to pump energy into the planet, out of the blue. We can only gauge the effects of that primary boost, but the extra energy does not come from the Death Star.

The second plateau is another type of reaction, one which generates a 'superluminal boost' and sends a significant amount of the planet into hyperspace, or so.
Once again, we can only gauge the effects, but it's clear that the extra energy from that second boost does not come from the Death Star.

This double threshold theory largely explains how the three Despayre shots achieve different levels of destruction between second and third shots, while all of them get recharge time roughly equal, are all said to be 1/3 of what the DS will be capable of, and all are of course not capable of Alderaan busting style shots for the moment.

Technically, with enough firepower, you can literally reach threshold 2 (which doesn't necessarily preclude the occurance, or partial occurance, of threshold 1's boost and effects).

There is a mass dispersal occuring with Despayre, but it's not up to the violent levels of Alderaan's destruction.
Those threshold effects are totally overkill.
The DET is not as high as some would think, but it's still high henough to crack the crust, have magma pour from many volcanoes and have mountains go up and down in two shots at 1/3.
The superlaser system is decidely an exotic weapon, able of a certain raw force, but reaches level of destruction many magnitudes superior to "vanilla" shots though unquantifiable exotic mechanisms, which can be explained.
What is quantifiable to a certain degree is the amount of destruction the beam do outside of those extra joules of exotic energy, and how many of them are necessary to reach the thresholds.
Claiming that a significant portion of Alderaan's mass was shited into hyperspace by measuring the energy needed to accelerate matter beyond c is most absurd. There's obviously far more bang for buck.

Kane Starkiller
Jedi Knight
Posts: 433
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2006 11:15 am

Post by Kane Starkiller » Sun Mar 16, 2008 6:26 pm

You provided no evidence for your theory whatsoever. 1/3 and 2/3 of superlaser power are meaningless since they represent neither the effects or the require power. They are simply wrong. Unless they were discussing some kind of logarithmic scale which wouldn't be unusual for weapons of this magnitude.
It is also unclear how you think this refutes the explicit statement about the amount of energy Death Star reactor is capable of generating.

User avatar
Mr. Oragahn
Admiral
Posts: 6865
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:58 am
Location: Paradise Mountain

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:12 pm

Kane Starkiller wrote:You provided no evidence for your theory whatsoever. 1/3 and 2/3 of superlaser power are meaningless since they represent neither the effects or the require power.
Required power to blast the planet?
It is extremely easily to compare the effects of 1/3 of what the final DS is said to be capable of, and 3/3, as seen used against Alderaan.

I don't see what's difficult to get here.
They are simply wrong. Unless they were discussing some kind of logarithmic scale which wouldn't be unusual for weapons of this magnitude.
Or the characters aren't wrong, and the Death Star is not that machine of absolute raw power coming from the core you've been thinking about.

My stance has the advantage to fit with everything.
It is also unclear how you think this refutes the explicit statement about the amount of energy Death Star reactor is capable of generating.
Please refresh my memory on that bit.

Kane Starkiller
Jedi Knight
Posts: 433
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2006 11:15 am

Post by Kane Starkiller » Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:37 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Required power to blast the planet?
It is extremely easily to compare the effects of 1/3 of what the final DS is said to be capable of, and 3/3, as seen used against Alderaan.

I don't see what's difficult to get here.
1/3 of violently exploding a planet is still violently exploding a planet not destroying a portion of the surface. Therefore 1/3 probably refers to a some other scale than linear which is your unproven assumption.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Or the characters aren't wrong, and the Death Star is not that machine of absolute raw power coming from the core you've been thinking about.
Wrong about what? That first and second shot involved 1/3 and 2/3 of the power? Which scale? You assume it's linear. This obviously doesn't correspond to what we see.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:My stance has the advantage to fit with everything.
Your stance is completely useless. "Exotic saturation"? What is that? With what is the planet saturated?
"The second plateau is another type of reaction"? What kind of reaction? What is the mechanism. Your theory provides absolutely no information.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Please refresh my memory on that bit.
The "Dath Star" novel states that reactor is capable of generating an energy burst equivalent to weekly output of several main sequence stars.

Roondar
Jedi Knight
Posts: 462
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:03 pm

Post by Roondar » Sun Mar 16, 2008 11:16 pm

Kane Starkiller wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Required power to blast the planet?
It is extremely easily to compare the effects of 1/3 of what the final DS is said to be capable of, and 3/3, as seen used against Alderaan.

I don't see what's difficult to get here.
1/3 of violently exploding a planet is still violently exploding a planet not destroying a portion of the surface. Therefore 1/3 probably refers to a some other scale than linear which is your unproven assumption.
You do realize that by saying things like this you're actually helping him prove the DS beam is not all direct energy/power don't you?
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Or the characters aren't wrong, and the Death Star is not that machine of absolute raw power coming from the core you've been thinking about.
Wrong about what? That first and second shot involved 1/3 and 2/3 of the power? Which scale? You assume it's linear. This obviously doesn't correspond to what we see.
No, 1/3 is actually pretty straightforward. If you ask me, you just don't want to accept it being linear because it doesn't fit your view of how things should work.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:My stance has the advantage to fit with everything.
Your stance is completely useless. "Exotic saturation"? What is that? With what is the planet saturated?
"The second plateau is another type of reaction"? What kind of reaction? What is the mechanism. Your theory provides absolutely no information.
The book implies there is funky stuff going on. Trying to make that work with 'direct energy transfer' won't work either.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Please refresh my memory on that bit.
The "Dath Star" novel states that reactor is capable of generating an energy burst equivalent to weekly output of several main sequence stars.
It however does not state that this is it's normal behavior. As an example for why this is relevant, I'm pretty sure the Chernobyl 'meltdown' reaction gave of a whole lot more energy (as in orders of magnitude higher) than its reactor was designed for during normal use.

User avatar
Mr. Oragahn
Admiral
Posts: 6865
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:58 am
Location: Paradise Mountain

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:04 am

Kane Starkiller wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Required power to blast the planet?
It is extremely easily to compare the effects of 1/3 of what the final DS is said to be capable of, and 3/3, as seen used against Alderaan.

I don't see what's difficult to get here.
1/3 of violently exploding a planet is still violently exploding a planet not destroying a portion of the surface. Therefore 1/3 probably refers to a some other scale than linear which is your unproven assumption.
It's not an assumption. It's straight from the book:
DS novel wrote:COMMAND CENTER, OVERBRIDGE, DEATH STAR

Motti said, "Engineering says the capacitors will be recharged in an hour and thirteen minutes."
Tarkin watched the projection as the effects of the beam manifested on the planet. By the time the second pulse was ready for discharge, there wouldn't be anything alive on the world below them to care. The chain reaction was massive. And at only one-third of the power that would be available when it was fully operational.
1/3 is 1/3. A third. Like 2/6.
Look, 1/3 is nothing more than a factor.

As we can see, the Despayre shots are fired at 1/3 of the future final power. Second and third shots have roughly same charging times. But the third shot, still at 1/3 of the future power (the station can't deliver more than that at that moment), is much more destructive.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Or the characters aren't wrong, and the Death Star is not that machine of absolute raw power coming from the core you've been thinking about.
Wrong about what? That first and second shot involved 1/3 and 2/3 of the power? Which scale? You assume it's linear. This obviously doesn't correspond to what we see.
As far as the weapons' systems are concerned, it is linear. The effects are not.
The Death Star's weapon is only capable of delivering shots at 1/3 of its future power.
First and second shots have very similar effects. The second shot is just more of the first one, as seen in the book.

It's not some fancy exponential stuff.
We see that with same recharge times, shots 2 and 3 have very different effects.

Even if the third shot was three times the power of the first shot, that is, 3/3, you'd never get enough energy to blow a planet into billions of pieces.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:My stance has the advantage to fit with everything.
Your stance is completely useless. "Exotic saturation"? What is that? With what is the planet saturated?
Do I look like I care what creates that exotic phenomenon? It happens. I don't need to explain the physics behind it.
Can you explain how hyperdrives really work? How a lightsabre really works? What the Force is exacly, in terms of physics, and how biologically, individuals can draw energy from it?
No. Yet, it would be most foolish to negate the existence of these elements because you can't explain them.
"The second plateau is another type of reaction"? What kind of reaction? What is the mechanism. Your theory provides absolutely no information.
Because this information is irrelevant.
My theory is just to explain the differences between the several shots.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Please refresh my memory on that bit.
The "Dath Star" novel states that reactor is capable of generating an energy burst equivalent to weekly output of several main sequence stars.
DS novel wrote:If it didn't work — well, the hypermatter reactor was capable of generating an energy burst equivalent to the total weekly output of several main-sequence stars; if anything went wonky, it wasn't likely he'd be around long enough to notice.
Low end: M8 on the main-sequence.

M8 class star output: 0.0008 Lsol = 0.0008 x 3.846 e26 W = 0.0030768 e26 W

Weekly output (604800 seconds) = 1.86084864 e29 J

Make that ten M8 stars, you're at 1.86084864 e30 J.

Though 1/3 of that firepower wouldn't rip apart a planet, it would surely devastate it. But something tells me that 1/3 of that output is still greatly superior to the effects described there:
DS novel wrote: Tenn looked at the images from the targeting cam. He still had his hand on the firing lever. He released it and stared, watching as the very air on the prison world caught fire in a runaway planetary holocaust. Seismographic sensors showed that massive groundquakes had begun, rumbling down into the bowels of the planet. Giant waves in the ocean, generated by the shifting of tectonic plates, rushed for the shores of the big continent. Volcanoes spewed lava. Clouds of steam and volcanic ash began to rapidly obscure the surface from view—but not fast enough.
He had just killed everything on the planet Despayre. If all life wasn't dead already, it would be soon.
The CO moved to look over his shoulder. He didn't congratulate Tenn on the shot; he just stood there.
At 1/3 of the final power, the first shot didn't even crack the crust (this only happens with the second shot).

Mike DiCenso
Security Officer
Posts: 5837
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:49 pm

Post by Mike DiCenso » Mon Mar 17, 2008 1:20 am

COMMAND CENTER, OVERBRIDGE, DEATH STAR

Motti said, "Engineering says the capacitors will be recharged in an hour and thirteen minutes."
Tarkin watched the projection as the effects of the beam manifested on the planet. By the time the second pulse was ready for discharge, there wouldn't be anything alive on the world below them to care. The chain reaction was massive. And at only one-third of the power that would be available when it was fully operational.

Is this correct? This highlighted bit here about a chain reaction? If this is correct, it would pretty much settle things right here. What the superlaser does is a chain reaction, not necessarily DET.
-Mike

User avatar
Mr. Oragahn
Admiral
Posts: 6865
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:58 am
Location: Paradise Mountain

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:29 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:
COMMAND CENTER, OVERBRIDGE, DEATH STAR

Motti said, "Engineering says the capacitors will be recharged in an hour and thirteen minutes."
Tarkin watched the projection as the effects of the beam manifested on the planet. By the time the second pulse was ready for discharge, there wouldn't be anything alive on the world below them to care. The chain reaction was massive. And at only one-third of the power that would be available when it was fully operational.

Is this correct? This highlighted bit here about a chain reaction? If this is correct, it would pretty much settle things right here. What the superlaser does is a chain reaction, not necessarily DET.
-Mike
Erm, chain reaction is a loose term which doesn't imply exotic mechanism.
You can get chain reactions with mere explosives and other things that blow up.

No, what is more interesting is that despite the huge amounts of energy dumped into the planet, it seems to spread rather well, instead of, you know, blowing a huge super crater on one side of the planet.

Of course, why would you expect a chain reaction in a planet, unless there are things down there waiting to blow up one by one.
It's correct that with a DET weapon that delivers its energy once into what is nothing more than a rockball, it's quite bizarre that there would be anything happening and described as a chain reaction. All effects would be sudden and happen all at the same time.
But it could be just a way to describe how all things keep catching fire and wiggle and spew more and more lava.

There's also that bit, in one of the quotes, about that dark spot blossoming while some wall of fire expands.
It can be interpretated in different ways, but it's funny, in a kind of way, that even Robert's own expanding band argument could fit in the book's description.

Mike DiCenso
Security Officer
Posts: 5837
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:49 pm

Post by Mike DiCenso » Tue Mar 18, 2008 7:03 pm

I thought that the odd planar rings were supposed to be a "hyperspace reflux" of some kind. Are you now suggesting it is otherwise?

Also I do think it is rather strange that the authors chose to use "chain-reaction" here when other descriptive language could have been used to indicate that the beam was using raw energy, rather than a reaction to devastate Despayre's crust and surface here.

This is particularly important when combined with the other information we get in the novel about the superlaser shunting off material from a target planet into hyperspace. That is what we are seeing with Despayre is not true DET, but rather a chain-reaction as a result of some part of the planet's crust being forced into hyperspace.
-Mike

User avatar
Mr. Oragahn
Admiral
Posts: 6865
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:58 am
Location: Paradise Mountain

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Tue Mar 18, 2008 10:51 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:I thought that the odd planar rings were supposed to be a "hyperspace reflux" of some kind. Are you now suggesting it is otherwise?
No. The EU has a fine explanation... for the EU.
From a purist stance, it's just technobabble going on, which is also the case in the EU.

Related to my pet theory, these effects would be related to threshold 2, the one where you gain an even greater energy boost, and a huge mass shift into hyperspace.
Also I do think it is rather strange that the authors chose to use "chain-reaction" here when other descriptive language could have been used to indicate that the beam was using raw energy, rather than a reaction to devastate Despayre's crust and surface here.
Well, sure, words like devastation, explosion, destruction, etc. could have worked just as well. What's true is that the use of chain-reaction is not going to make things smoother. :)
This is particularly important when combined with the other information we get in the novel about the superlaser shunting off material from a target planet into hyperspace. That is what we are seeing with Despayre is not true DET, but rather a chain-reaction as a result of some part of the planet's crust being forced into hyperspace.
-Mike
What we see is that there's clearly a sudden increase of destruction effects, with no indication that energy outputs from Death Star increased. It couldn't reach more than 1/3 of the future finaly power.
We got very detailed descriptions of what these "1/3 shots" did to the planet.
It's just pure denial or lack of comprehension to miss the sudden difference of effects between shot 1-2 and shot 3 while all power paramters are the same.

There are other elements which are interesting in that light.

More, I always thought the EU claimed that the Death Star needed to charge for a whole hour or more for a Alderaan busting type shot.
The 1/3 take around 75 minutes to get ready.
For example, the completion of the battle station's design would allow the reactor to work at full power (3/3) within 75 minutes.

This wouldn't fit much with the idea that the Death Star, under normal conditions and once final, could produce, in a burst - which definitily indicates a very brief duration - the weekly output of several main-sequence stars. That is, all that energy within one second or less.
Kane's interpretation would mean that the Death Star's reactor would be capable of a power of, at least 3.72 e29 watts (2 M8 stars, based on calcs made earlier on), that under normal conditions (and figures could reach far higher).

It doesn't fit.

Oh, Wookieepedia has another bit from the novel:
Motti: "Engineering tells me that we can manage thirty percent power and, after a fast capacitor recharge for an hour or two, that much again."
Tarkin: "How strong will that beam be?"
Motti: "Theoretical. Nobody knows for sure."
Tarkin: "Well, then we need to test it before we embark."
Motti: "That would be wise. Do you have a target in mind?"
Tarkin: "Yes. I do."
— Admiral Conan Antonio Motti and Grand Moff Wilhuff Tarkin[src]
Our interpretations, thus far, fit with everything, even the Eclipse issue which SDNers never managed to solve:
Superlaser (Eclipse's)
The most important development in the design of the Eclipse was its main weapon, a concealed superlaser running along the spine of the ship. Based on the technology of the Death Star, the Eclipse's single superlaser could fire at two-thirds the power of the Death Star's entire eight-superlaser array, a feat made possible by advances in superlaser focusing and generator technology. The weapon was capable of destroying even the most powerful planetary shields and entire continents in an instant. It could also crack the crust of planets, render entire worlds uninhabitable, and rip enemy capital ships apart with a single shot. Early in the Eclipse's construction, the laser was prone to breakdowns, but whether this was eventually fixed is unknown.
The real quote, apparently, is this one:
Star Wars: The Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels pg 46:

"The Eclipse was also intended to devastate entire worlds. Its main weapon was a superlaser weapon although its power was only two-thirds that of the main weapon aboard the first Death Star--it was 'merely' powerful enough to crack the crust of a planet rather than destroy it outright."
The interpretation from wookieepedia seems correct, and consists of two different sources.

Basically, what we see is that 2/3 of what the DS was capable of destroying entire continents and cracking the crust. This couldn't be closer to what's described for the second shot of Despayre.

Still, we're a far way from blasting a planet to bits just by adding the missing third of the refered Death Star power, which just highlights my point about a kind of saturation and exotic secondary effect that occurs with a third shot.

Analogy: It's a bit like a zat gun in Stargate. First shot stuns. Second shot kills, but sometimes it just stuns. They're relatively similar in yields of destruction, and the second could be considered being the "too much" of the first one.
But the third one literally disintegrates matter through some exotic chain reaction, as the target is saturated by zat'ni'katel energy. Technically, if you used a huge zat gun, you'd probably directly reach NDF level.

The zat gun, in that case, would have one threshold level.

The Death Star, when firing a fully powered shot, can reach a secondary one, which is the hyperluminal boost (shifting planetary mass into hyperspace via whatever exotic means) and generates rings.

I hope you don't mind the analogy. :)

Kane Starkiller
Jedi Knight
Posts: 433
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2006 11:15 am

Post by Kane Starkiller » Sat Mar 29, 2008 12:41 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote:It's not an assumption. It's straight from the book:
DS novel wrote:COMMAND CENTER, OVERBRIDGE, DEATH STAR

Motti said, "Engineering says the capacitors will be recharged in an hour and thirteen minutes."
Tarkin watched the projection as the effects of the beam manifested on the planet. By the time the second pulse was ready for discharge, there wouldn't be anything alive on the world below them to care. The chain reaction was massive. And at only one-third of the power that would be available when it was fully operational.
1/3 is 1/3. A third. Like 2/6.
Look, 1/3 is nothing more than a factor.

As we can see, the Despayre shots are fired at 1/3 of the future final power. Second and third shots have roughly same charging times. But the third shot, still at 1/3 of the future power (the station can't deliver more than that at that moment), is much more destructive.
Yes I know 1/3 is 1/3. At which scale? You assume it's linear yet events from the book directly disprove it since scattering planetary mass is not 3 times more energetic than destroying portions of surface. For real world example see decibels.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:As far as the weapons' systems are concerned, it is linear. The effects are not.
The Death Star's weapon is only capable of delivering shots at 1/3 of its future power.
First and second shots have very similar effects. The second shot is just more of the first one, as seen in the book.

It's not some fancy exponential stuff.
We see that with same recharge times, shots 2 and 3 have very different effects.

Even if the third shot was three times the power of the first shot, that is, 3/3, you'd never get enough energy to blow a planet into billions of pieces.
Provide evidence it is linear as far as weapons systems are concerned. Provide evidence it's "not some fancy exponential stuff". You cannot pass off your assumptions as fact.
Mor. Oragahn wrote:Do I look like I care what creates that exotic phenomenon? It happens. I don't need to explain the physics behind it.
Can you explain how hyperdrives really work? How a lightsabre really works? What the Force is exacly, in terms of physics, and how biologically, individuals can draw energy from it?
No. Yet, it would be most foolish to negate the existence of these elements because you can't explain them.
Again you describe your theory as "exotic phenomenon". You might as well call it "dfhgbehgbdj" for all the useful information we get. You not only failed to describe what causes it you failed to describe what it is. If you can't even provide a mechanism or an explanation beyond "exotic mechanism" then how can you make any claims about it? I could just as well claim it's an "exotic mechanism" that actually requires 10^50J from Death Star but most of it doesn't show since it's sucked into hyperspace due to "hyperspatial flux effect". Meaningless.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Because this information is irrelevant.
My theory is just to explain the differences between the several shots.
You have no theory. You simply retell what happened in the book, assume 1/3 is linearly scaled power and then attach the "exotic mechanism" string without any explanations whatsoever.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Low end: M8 on the main-sequence.

M8 class star output: 0.0008 Lsol = 0.0008 x 3.846 e26 W = 0.0030768 e26 W

Weekly output (604800 seconds) = 1.86084864 e29 J

Make that ten M8 stars, you're at 1.86084864 e30 J.
That is the lower end yes. The upper end is over 10^38J which corresponds neatly with observed effects.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Though 1/3 of that firepower wouldn't rip apart a planet, it would surely devastate it. But something tells me that 1/3 of that output is still greatly superior to the effects described there:
DS novel wrote:Tenn looked at the images from the targeting cam. He still had his hand on the firing lever. He released it and stared, watching as the very air on the prison world caught fire in a runaway planetary holocaust. Seismographic sensors showed that massive groundquakes had begun, rumbling down into the bowels of the planet. Giant waves in the ocean, generated by the shifting of tectonic plates, rushed for the shores of the big continent. Volcanoes spewed lava. Clouds of steam and volcanic ash began to rapidly obscure the surface from view—but not fast enough.
He had just killed everything on the planet Despayre. If all life wasn't dead already, it would be soon.
The CO moved to look over his shoulder. He didn't congratulate Tenn on the shot; he just stood there.
At 1/3 of the final power, the first shot didn't even crack the crust (this only happens with the second shot).
All easily explainable by the scale not being linear. No reason to appeal to your undefined "exotic mechanism".

Post Reply