The Riddle of The Phaser

[Lucky]

The purpose of this thread is not to determine firepower, but to try to figure out what Phasers do.

What Phasers Shoot

SHELBY: I think we should look at modifying the plasma phaser design.
-=-=-=-=-=-
LAFORGE: At the same time, we'll be retuning phasers to higher EM base emitting frequencies to try to disrupt their subspace field.
-=-=-=-=-=-
WORF: These phasers have been retuned. Each has a different frequency spanning the upper EM band.

PICARD: The first thing they'll do in engineering is establish a collective, a central point from which they can control the hive. The problem is if we begin firing particle weapons in engineering there's a risk we may hit the warp core. I believe our goal should be to puncture one of the plasma coolant tanks.

LAFORGE: Rapid nadion pulse, right on target. Beam control assembly, safety interlock, both checked out. Beam width intensity controls also responding correctly.

KIM: I've enhanced this tricorder with a transoptic datalink. It should help you access some of their systems. Type one phaser modified to fire Borg nanoprobes.

DEVOR: The baryon sweep uses a high-frequency plasma field. Your phaser won't work. 


PICARD: You're probably right. But I'd like to bet this will. A laser welder can be deadly. What's going on in main Engineering? I suggest that you cooperate.

SISKO: Chief, did you ever hear of a TR one one six rifle? 


O'BRIEN: It was a prototype. Developed by Starfleet Security to operate in energy dampening fields or radiogenic environments. 


SISKO: That's right. Anywhere where a normal phaser would be useless. If I'm not mistaken, the TR one one six rifle fired a chemically propelled tritanium bullet. 


ODO: You say a prototype. Were they ever mass produced? 


O'BRIEN: No. Starfleet abandoned the TR one one six in favour of regenerative phasers.

It would appear that phasers share notable similarities with an Electrolaser.

Because phasers fire Nadion particles I will link to a thread that I made about Nadion Particles.
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... f=8&t=6333

While being able to fire macro objects such as nanites or drugs is a useful feature, one must wonder how this accomplished. Perhaps the the device that accelerates the particles is able to fire small but still far more massive things.



What Phasers Do Not Seem To Do

DATA: Sir, the core is composed of nitrium and chrondite. It is unlikely another photon torpedo will be of any effect. 


PICARD: Mister Worf, prepare a tractor beam. 


WORF: Aye, sir. 


DATA: Thirty seconds to impact. 


WORF: Captain, I am unable to get a positive lock with the tractor beam. There is magnetic field interference emanating from the core materials. 


PICARD: Activate a deflector dish. If we project a particle beam, we may be able to produce a disruptive nuclear effect within the core. 


WORF: Aye, sir.

This is the only example of a NDF or more accurately a DNE event. Picard does not seem to even consider using the phasers, and the results are extremely violent.


What Phasers Do

SCIENTIST [on viewscreen]: No, it has a ferrous crystalline structure and it will be able to withstand tidal forces, Captain 


RIKER: Could we blow it into pieces? 


DATA: The total mass of the moon would remain the same, Commander, and the impact of thousands of fragments would spread destruction over an even wider area.

Phasers do not make things simply disapear

DATA: The motion of the dust has created a great deal of electrostatic energy in the upper atmosphere. With a modified phaser blast, we could create a shock front that would encircle the planet and ionise the particles. 


PICARD: That would be like striking a spark in a gas-filled room. 


DATA: With one exception, sir. The particles would be converted into a high energy plasma which our shields could absorb and then re-direct harmlessly into space.

KIRK: My phaser didn't cut through it. 


MCCOY: Whatever it is, it has a mighty high melting point. 


KIRK: Eight thousand degrees centigrade. It looks like igneous rock, but infinitely denser.

RIKER: Data, tell me about noranium. It vaporises at? 


DATA: Two thousand three hundred fourteen degrees. Of course, noranium carbide 


RIKER: Thank you, Data.


LAFORGE: Setting seven ought to do it.

Starship phasers turn things into high energy plasma, and do not make things simply dispear. Even hand phasers heat things to thousands of degrees Celsius. This certainly explains the burning corpse seen in at the end of "TNG Conspiracy".

Perhaps phasers turn the target into plasma, and then use exotic methods to deal with the resulting plasma as is talked about in "TNG A Matter Of Time"?

KIRK: Take your men. Make a swing around our perimeter. Scan for dikironium in the atmosphere. Set your phasers on disrupter-B. If you see any gaseous cloud, fire immediately. You're on Red Alert. Make a sweep.

Phasers have at least 2 Disrupter settings. What Disrupter settings do is unclear, but they differ from the standard kill and stun settings.

-=-=-=-=-=-
Did I miss anything?

What do you think of my conclusions?

[359]

I have been bouncing around a similar idea for some time as well. Just without the specifics of phasers turning targets to plasma, which a directed energy weapon would partly do anyway due to the high temperatures.

There's a bit more information about the kill/stun settings from DS9: "Melora" and TNG: "Samaritan Snare"

TNG: "Samaritan Snare":

Worf: "He's already been hit by multiple phaser stuns."
PULASKI: "He could need medical attention."

DS9: "Melora":

Melora: "Why didn't the phaser kill me?"
Bashir: "I don't know. Maybe all the neuro-stimulants we've been pumping into your system."
Melora: "That's what I was wondering too."
Bashir: "You know, it might make an interesting side effect of the treatment. It's worth exploring."

From "Melora" we can see that kill, and probably stun as well, operate via neural shock rather than bodily harm. And that enough stun blasts can significantly hurt you.

Also for the standard thermal settings, they tend to evenly heat objects or portions of objects. This can be seen in DS9: "Rocks and Shoals" and various TOS episodes where they heat rocks with their phasers (TOS: "A Private Little War", TOS: "The Enemy Within").

DS9: "Rocks and Shoals":
http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ls_165.jpg
http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ls_166.jpg

[Lucky]

I have been bouncing around a similar idea for some time as well. Just without the specifics of phasers turning targets to plasma, which a directed energy weapon would partly do anyway due to the high temperatures.

It is often assumed that phasers do damage through exotic chain reactions Data's idea in "A Matter Of Time was to use the phaser to turn volcanic dust into plasma, and then use the ship's shields to throw it all into space,, but I can't find any evidence the ship's phasers are modified in any manner. That would imply that turning stuff into high energy plasma is what star ship phasers normally do.

LAFORGE: Magnetic residual analysis confirms that the Vico was attacked inside the Black Cluster. The graviton wave fronts pushed the ship to where we found it. 


PICARD: No signs of phaser burns on the hull. 


LAFORGE: No, sir. Torsional stress levels point to a disrupter-style weapon.

Again talk of intense heating caused by phasers, but Disruptors cause similar damage as a gravitational wave front.

There's a bit more information about the kill/stun settings from DS9: "Melora" and TNG: "Samaritan Snare"

TNG: "Samaritan Snare":

Worf: "He's already been hit by multiple phaser stuns."
PULASKI: "He could need medical attention."

DS9: "Melora":

Melora: "Why didn't the phaser kill me?"
Bashir: "I don't know. Maybe all the neuro-stimulants we've been pumping into your system."
Melora: "That's what I was wondering too."
Bashir: "You know, it might make an interesting side effect of the treatment. It's worth exploring."

From "Melora" we can see that kill, and probably stun as well, operate via neural shock rather than bodily harm. And that enough stun blasts can significantly hurt you.

The idea that something that keeps you conscious will save you from a kill setting is stupid, and such a thing not being commonly done is even stupider? There are clearly several kill settings anyway.


In "TOS That Which Survives", it is stated a phaser pistol can heat things to a maximum of 8,000 degrees Celsius, and at least one kill setting will literally burn a hole through a humanoid as seen in "TNG Suspicions".
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ons313.jpg
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ons314.jpg
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ons316.jpg

BASHIR: This is a phaser burn. 


ENSIGN: What are you talking about? 


BASHIR: Just sit tight. We'll get to you as soon as we can. 


ENSIGN: It's not a phaser burn! (to Jake) It was a Klingon. You weren't there. You don't know what it's like. The Klingons had us pinned down. We were done for. We all knew it. Hendriks and Pajal, they got scared. They ran. They ran! Then Sully got hit in the leg and the medics pulled him off the line. And all I could think was, I wish I were him. And I took my phaser. Oh, God! What did I do to myself? What did I do?

Burns and other heat related damage keep coming up in relation to phasers.


A mere phaser pistol should easily burn flesh, or make iron/steel run like water.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3i6lH4OKCI

Also for the standard thermal settings, they tend to evenly heat objects or portions of objects. This can be seen in DS9: "Rocks and Shoals" and various TOS episodes where they heat rocks with their phasers (TOS: "A Private Little War", TOS: "The Enemy Within").

DS9: "Rocks and Shoals":
http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ls_165.jpg

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ls_166.jpg

I thought I had that covered well enough with the That Which Survives quote?

[359]

It is often assumed that phasers do damage through exotic chain reactions Data's idea in "A Matter Of Time was to use the phaser to turn volcanic dust into plasma, and then use the ship's shields to throw it all into space,, but I can't find any evidence the ship's phasers are modified in any manner. That would imply that turning stuff into high energy plasma is what star ship phasers normally do.

They do say they will use a modified phaser blast to trigger the reaction. Plus the creating of plasma was to be the byproduct of the reaction in the atmosphere triggered by the phasers, not necessarily a byproduct of the phasers themselves.

TNG: "A Matter of Time":

Picard: "The good news."
Data: "The motion of the dust has created a great deal of electrostatic energy in the upper atmosphere. With a modified phaser blast, we could create a shock front that would encircle the planet and ionise the particles."
Picard: "That would be like striking a spark in a gas-filled room."
Data: "With one exception, sir. The particles would be converted into a high energy plasma which our shields could absorb and then re-direct harmlessly into space."
Picard: "Turn the Enterprise into a lightning rod?"
Data: "Precisely, sir."
Picard: "And the bad news?"
Data: "If our phaser discharge is off by as little as point zero six terawatts, it would cause a cascading exothermal inversion."
Picard: "Meaning?"
Data: "We would completely burn off the planet's atmosphere."

The idea that something that keeps you conscious will save you from a kill setting is stupid, and such a thing not being commonly done is even stupider? There are clearly several kill settings anyway.

Well, stupid or not, it did occur. Perhaps it would only protect from the lower kill settings and not the higher ones. And they did not know the treatment would have that effect before. Plus the shot did knock her unconcious, so it reduced the effect but did not prevent it entirely. This would also explain why phaser stun and low kill do not effect enhanced humanoids such as those in TNG: "Conspiricy", TNG: "The Hunted", TNG: "Clues", and several others.

In "TOS That Which Survives", it is stated a phaser pistol can heat things to a maximum of 8,000 degrees Celsius,

In TOS: "That Which Survives" Kirk fired his phaser at the rock which didn't disappear, and stated it was due to a high melting point and density which implies phasers make things disappear primarily through thermal effects. He then adjusts his phaser to what is presumably an even higher setting and fires again, still to no avail. So they can heat materials tin excess of 8,000 °C as Kirk increased the phaser setting again, and fired again, to see if he could blast through the material on the higher setting.

and at least one kill setting will literally burn a hole through a humanoid as seen in "TNG Suspicions".
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ons313.jpg
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ons314.jpg
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ons316.jpg

BASHIR: This is a phaser burn. 


ENSIGN: What are you talking about? 


BASHIR: Just sit tight. We'll get to you as soon as we can. 


ENSIGN: It's not a phaser burn! (to Jake) It was a Klingon. You weren't there. You don't know what it's like. The Klingons had us pinned down. We were done for. We all knew it. Hendriks and Pajal, they got scared. They ran. They ran! Then Sully got hit in the leg and the medics pulled him off the line. And all I could think was, I wish I were him. And I took my phaser. Oh, God! What did I do to myself? What did I do?

Burns and other heat related damage keep coming up in relation to phasers.

There are many referances to phaser burns throughout Star Trek, but they aren't normally serious unless the phaser is set on the highter settings above standard kill. We have also seen many phaser hits which do not appear to leave burns which suggests that the higher settings of kill leave burns but not stun and lower kill settings, at least not serious ones.

A mere phaser pistol should easily burn flesh, or make iron/steel run like water.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3i6lH4OKCI

And we see this several times such as in TNG: "Night Terrors". But it is never associated with any of the standard kill settings, generally something like setting 7.

TNG: "Night Terrors":

Worf: "Commander. Here's another one. This was done by a phaser on a setting of six or seven."
Riker: "And more over here."

Bad burns from phasers:
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ors018.jpg

Also for the standard thermal settings, they tend to evenly heat objects or portions of objects. This can be seen in DS9: "Rocks and Shoals" and various TOS episodes where they heat rocks with their phasers (TOS: "A Private Little War", TOS: "The Enemy Within").

DS9: "Rocks and Shoals":
http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ls_165.jpg

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ls_166.jpg

I thought I had that covered well enough with the That Which Survives quote?

It never hurts to heap on more examples. Anyway I was making a point more on how the phasers still evenly thermally heat materials similar to how the disintegration settings evenly destroy objects. This indicates a similar process is occurring but just not quite as energetic, and it results in thermal heating.

[Lucky]

They do say they will use a modified phaser blast to trigger the reaction. Plus the creating of plasma was to be the byproduct of the reaction in the atmosphere triggered by the phasers, not necessarily a byproduct of the phasers themselves.

TNG: "A Matter of Time":

Picard: "The good news."
Data: "The motion of the dust has created a great deal of electrostatic energy in the upper atmosphere. With a modified phaser blast, we could create a shock front that would encircle the planet and ionise the particles."
Picard: "That would be like striking a spark in a gas-filled room."
Data: "With one exception, sir. The particles would be converted into a high energy plasma which our shields could absorb and then re-direct harmlessly into space."
Picard: "Turn the Enterprise into a lightning rod?"
Data: "Precisely, sir."
Picard: "And the bad news?"
Data: "If our phaser discharge is off by as little as point zero six terawatts, it would cause a cascading exothermal inversion."
Picard: "Meaning?"
Data: "We would completely burn off the planet's atmosphere."

I missed that. Thank you.

Still, phasers normally cause burns, and are used to heat things thousands of degrees. Riker literally vaporized stuff, and Laforge melted stuff to make tools. Heating is a major part of what phasers do.

Well, stupid or not, it did occur. Perhaps it would only protect from the lower kill settings and not the higher ones. And they did not know the treatment would have that effect before. Plus the shot did knock her unconcious, so it reduced the effect but did not prevent it entirely. This would also explain why phaser stun and low kill do not effect enhanced humanoids such as those in TNG: "Conspiricy", TNG: "The Hunted", TNG: "Clues", and several others.

There are a number of reasons something might be more resistant to a phaser. There are humans in the real world who are naturally resistant if not immune to electricity. There are just to many possibilities why something might be resistant to something.

A medication making someone resistant to a phaser, but such a thing being unknown before hand would imply they don't understand the effects a phaser has on the target in spite of using and studying phasers for hundreds of years.

In TOS: "That Which Survives" Kirk fired his phaser at the rock which didn't disappear, and stated it was due to a high melting point and density which implies phasers make things disappear primarily through thermal effects. He then adjusts his phaser to what is presumably an even higher setting and fires again, still to no avail. So they can heat materials tin excess of 8,000 °C as Kirk increased the phaser setting again, and fired again, to see if he could blast through the material on the higher setting.

Good catch, but wouldn't that mean phasers may not cheat beyond negating the secondary effects?

There are many referances to phaser burns throughout Star Trek, but they aren't normally serious unless the phaser is set on the highter settings above standard kill. We have also seen many phaser hits which do not appear to leave burns which suggests that the higher settings of kill leave burns but not stun and lower kill settings, at least not serious ones.

If a phaser works similarly to an electrolaser or taser then the burns could be minor while stunning or killing.


In Omega Glory Spock nearly dies from being too close to an object that is "vaporized". Radiation poisoning sucks.

And we see this several times such as in TNG: "Night Terrors". But it is never associated with any of the standard kill settings, generally something like setting 7.

TNG: "Night Terrors":

Worf: "Commander. Here's another one. This was done by a phaser on a setting of six or seven."
Riker: "And more over here."

Bad burns from phasers:
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ors018.jpg

That looks similar to an electrical burn.

It never hurts to heap on more examples. Anyway I was making a point more on how the phasers still evenly thermally heat materials similar to how the disintegration settings evenly destroy objects. This indicates a similar process is occurring but just not quite as energetic, and it results in thermal heating.

Spock was nearly killed by invisible radiation do to being too close to a thing "vaporized" with a phaser in "Omega Glory", then you have captive pursuits, where the phaser does not heat things evenly, and in "Extreme Risk" a phaser is modified into a shield generator.. I'm rather inclined to think phaser beams include invisible aspects such as a containment shield.

Omega Glory
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/thumbnails.p ... 52&page=28

Captive Pursuit
http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... uit220.jpg

Rocks and Shoals
http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ls_165.jpg

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ls_166.jpg

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ls_167.jpg

Extreme Risk
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbna ... 33&page=13

[359]

Still, phasers normally cause burns, and are used to heat things thousands of degrees. Riker literally vaporized stuff, and Laforge melted stuff to make tools. Heating is a major part of what phasers do.

I don't disagree that they heat things, I am just saying that on lower stun and kill levels heating is not their primary means of damage to people, as stated in DS9: "Melora" and suggested many times in different episodes from the lack of visible burns on people, uniforms, etc...

There are a number of reasons something might be more resistant to a phaser. There are humans in the real world who are naturally resistant if not immune to electricity. There are just to many possibilities why something might be resistant to something.

First, to clarify things, people cannot be "immune" to electricity ( and resistance from hand to hand, measuring on my multi-meter, is about 1.2 MΩ), it is like claiming that someone can be immune to bullets. The likelihood of being killed is dependent on many factors; voltage (and therefor current), current path, and duration of shock. If the current passes through your heart, for example, you are far more likely to be killed than if it mostly passes through your right flank to the ground. This is why, according to one of my friends who worked as an electrical engineer in performances, people who need to work on active high-voltage systems keep their left hand in their pocket, as to reduce the likely hood of shock on that side.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_shock

A medication making someone resistant to a phaser, but such a thing being unknown before hand would imply they don't understand the effects a phaser has on the target in spite of using and studying phasers for hundreds of years.

Or it could mean they did not have a great enough understanding of the brain and how various stimulations could effect low level phaser kill shots. Although by the genetically engineered soldier in TNG: "The Hunted" some people definitely had at least some understanding and implementation of such effects.

In TOS: "That Which Survives" Kirk fired his phaser at the rock which didn't disappear, and stated it was due to a high melting point and density which implies phasers make things disappear primarily through thermal effects. He then adjusts his phaser to what is presumably an even higher setting and fires again, still to no avail. So they can heat materials tin excess of 8,000 °C as Kirk increased the phaser setting again, and fired again, to see if he could blast through the material on the higher setting.

Good catch, but wouldn't that mean phasers may not cheat beyond negating the secondary effects?

I would suggest that by being the most simple conclusion, but it does not require it. It only goes as far as to state that thermal effects still play a significant role in phaser disintegration.


[quote="Lucky']If a phaser works similarly to an electrolaser or taser then the burns could be minor while stunning or killing. [/quote]That is at least how I think of it.

Bad burns from phasers:
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ors018.jpg

That looks similar to an electrical burn.

I'm not sure what electrical burns look like specifically, but electrical burns are caused by heating of tissue due to the tissue's resistance. So it could also be a thermal burn, or both.

Spock was nearly killed by invisible radiation do to being too close to a thing "vaporized" with a phaser in "Omega Glory", then you have captive pursuits, where the phaser does not heat things evenly, and in "Extreme Risk" a phaser is modified into a shield generator.. I'm rather inclined to think phaser beams include invisible aspects such as a containment shield.

The phaser in DS9: "Captive Persuits" does not appear to heat much of anything that we can see, it just frizzles something in Tosk's collar opening its latch.

[Mike DiCenso]

They do say they will use a modified phaser blast to trigger the reaction. Plus the creating of plasma was to be the byproduct of the reaction in the atmosphere triggered by the phasers, not necessarily a byproduct of the phasers themselves.

Except the problem is, they don't tell us exactly how the phasers are modified. Now the idea was to turn the dust into ionized plasma, and they were apparently pumping a huge amount of energy into the phasers to do so, which ran the risk of a runaway reaction that would burn off the planet's atmosphere. My guess is that they had to rig the phasers so that somehow they only hit or effect the dust and didn't continue down and cause massive damage to the planet's surface instead.
-Mike

[359]

They do say they will use a modified phaser blast to trigger the reaction. Plus the creating of plasma was to be the byproduct of the reaction in the atmosphere triggered by the phasers, not necessarily a byproduct of the phasers themselves.

Except the problem is, they don't tell us exactly how the phasers are modified. Now the idea was to turn the dust into ionized plasma, and they were apparently pumping a huge amount of energy into the phasers to do so, which ran the risk of a runaway reaction that would burn off the planet's atmosphere. My guess is that they had to rig the phasers so that somehow they only hit or effect the dust and didn't continue down and cause massive damage to the planet's surface instead.
-Mike

You are right, the problem is we don't know how the phasers were modified. That uncertainty prevents us from being able to draw any solid conclusions from the event about how phasers normally behave. Because, in some way we don't know, they were changed to act differently than normal. That isn't to say that every idea drawn from or inspired by this is wrong, it is just not able to be assuredly supported by evidence.

[Lucky]

I don't disagree that they heat things, I am just saying that on lower stun and kill levels heating is not their primary means of damage to people, as stated in DS9: "Melora" and suggested many times in different episodes from the lack of visible burns on people, uniforms, etc...

1) A lack of burns on clothing doesn't really prove anything unless we know the properties of the material, and Star Fleet uniforms are known to have some odd properties.

2) Minor burns can easily be ignored.

First, to clarify things, people cannot be "immune" to electricity ( and resistance from hand to hand, measuring on my multi-meter, is about 1.2 MΩ), it is like claiming that someone can be immune to bullets. The likelihood of being killed is dependent on many factors; voltage (and therefor current), current path, and duration of shock. If the current passes through your heart, for example, you are far more likely to be killed than if it mostly passes through your right flank to the ground. This is why, according to one of my friends who worked as an electrical engineer in performances, people who need to work on active high-voltage systems keep their left hand in their pocket, as to reduce the likely hood of shock on that side.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_shock

Try using Google, and search for "immune to electricity". You will find a number of examples of people who have an abnormal tolerance for electricity.

IF humans can naturally have an abnormal tolerances to electricity then there is no reason why there can't be humans with a rare tolerance to phasers. Heck, Khan in the new movie was able to shrug off stun blasts.

Or it could mean they did not have a great enough understanding of the brain and how various stimulations could effect low level phaser kill shots. Although by the genetically engineered soldier in TNG: "The Hunted" some people definitely had at least some understanding and implementation of such effects.

RIKER: Have you run a diagnostic on the sensors, Data? 


DATA: Yes, sir. There is nothing wrong with the ship's sensors. The reason we did not sense life signs aboard the escape vessel is because the prisoner has no life signs. 


RIKER: Computer, identify the occupant of the detention cell. 


COMPUTER: The detention cell is vacant at this time. 


RIKER: He's in there. 


PICARD: Could he be some kind of android? 


DATA: Our sensors can identify artificial lifeforms, sir. Apparently, he is capable of deceiving the sensors.

-=-=-=-=-=-

CRUSHER: At Troi's request I examined him. His cell structure has been significantly altered. They used a combination of cryptobiolin, triclenidil, macrospentol and a few things I can't even recognise.

He was resistant do to alterations to his cellular structure.

I would suggest that by being the most simple conclusion, but it does not require it. It only goes as far as to state that thermal effects still play a significant role in phaser disintegration.

If you need to basically melt or vaporize the target before the exotic effects can happen then what is the difference?

I'm not sure what electrical burns look like specifically, but electrical burns are caused by heating of tissue due to the tissue's resistance. So it could also be a thermal burn, or both.

Google will bring up a lot of pictures. Electrical burns look very different from burns caused by heat or chemicals.

JANEWAY: There must be some way to disperse it. Try a nadion burst from the phaser emitters. It may weaken the electromagnetic properties of the fluid.

Nadions, which are part of a phaser beam weaken the electromagnetic properties of an object.

The phaser in DS9: "Captive Persuits" does not appear to heat much of anything that we can see, it just frizzles something in Tosk's collar opening its latch.

You literally see vapor/smoke of some sort coming from the collar, and Miles only wanted to get the collar off, but did not want to hurt his friend.

Beam width and output is variable at least by Kirk's era.

[359]

I don't disagree that they heat things, I am just saying that on lower stun and kill levels heating is not their primary means of damage to people, as stated in DS9: "Melora" and suggested many times in different episodes from the lack of visible burns on people, uniforms, etc...

1) A lack of burns on clothing doesn't really prove anything unless we know the properties of the material, and Star Fleet uniforms are known to have some odd properties.

2) Minor burns can easily be ignored.

Yes, I agree. All I am saying is that there is not sufficient damage by burns or physical trauma to be the cause of death from phaser hits. It must be a form of shock to the body, which is indicated to be a shock to the neural system in DS9: "Melora".

Try using Google, and search for "immune to electricity". You will find a number of examples of people who have an abnormal tolerance for electricity.

Call me a skeptic, but I don't believe just any random thing someone might say on the internet, or even say in person.
Searching "immune to electricity" on Google came up with a list of things that scream "unreliable source" to me.

The fact of the matter is, it is a 'game' of probability when it comes to electrocution. One can be hit by a 240 v shock and survive, or one could be killed outright. There are things that effect the probability, such as voltage, duration of shock, and path of current.

Or it could mean they did not have a great enough understanding of the brain and how various stimulations could effect low level phaser kill shots. Although by the genetically engineered soldier in TNG: "The Hunted" some people definitely had at least some understanding and implementation of such effects.

RIKER: Have you run a diagnostic on the sensors, Data? 


DATA: Yes, sir. There is nothing wrong with the ship's sensors. The reason we did not sense life signs aboard the escape vessel is because the prisoner has no life signs. 


RIKER: Computer, identify the occupant of the detention cell. 


COMPUTER: The detention cell is vacant at this time. 


RIKER: He's in there. 


PICARD: Could he be some kind of android? 


DATA: Our sensors can identify artificial lifeforms, sir. Apparently, he is capable of deceiving the sensors.

-=-=-=-=-=-

CRUSHER: At Troi's request I examined him. His cell structure has been significantly altered. They used a combination of cryptobiolin, triclenidil, macrospentol and a few things I can't even recognise.

He was resistant do to alterations to his cellular structure.

1)Almost everything in the body is composed of cells, including the brain.

2)The alteration to his cellular is not correlated to his resistance to phaser hits within the episode, it is one of the alterations made to him.

3)The reason I mentioned it is that there is someone who did use medical treatment to create an individual resistant to phaser stun.

If you need to basically melt or vaporize the target before the exotic effects can happen then what is the difference?

It is a lot less harsh on the surrounding environment than what one would expect from straight vaporization. Although not all of the time, on several occasions we have seen phasers cause explosions such as in TNG: "Hide and Q", DS9: "Rocks and Shoals", and TOS: "Where No Man Has Gone Before".

Google will bring up a lot of pictures. Electrical burns look very different from burns caused by heat or chemicals.

I'll take your word for it, I don't think I really need to see a bunch of pictures of bad burns.

In any case, that makes sense as phasers are a directed energy weapon, not radiant heat.

[Lucky]

Yes, I agree. All I am saying is that there is not sufficient damage by burns or physical trauma to be the cause of death from phaser hits. It must be a form of shock to the body, which is indicated to be a shock to the neural system in DS9: "Melora".

I'd think it all depends on the setting.

Given neural energy seems to be a everything a person is that is not the physical body, and without it the person is dead. Star Trek has scientifically quantified things like human souls, and psionics.

Call me a skeptic, but I don't believe just any random thing someone might say on the internet, or even say in person.
Searching "immune to electricity" on Google came up with a list of things that scream "unreliable source" to me.

You're a skeptic, happy?

There are people who can There are people who can run around naked in snow and ice without any problems unlike the vast majority of humans. There are humans who have odd genetic quirks that give them mildly abnormal abilities or weaknesses.

The fact of the matter is, it is a 'game' of probability when it comes to electrocution. One can be hit by a 240 v shock and survive, or one could be killed outright. There are things that effect the probability, such as voltage, duration of shock, and path of current.

Try googling Stan Lee's Superhumans and the word electricity. The show highlights humans with unusual abilities.

1)Almost everything in the body is composed of cells, including the brain.

It sounds like they added organelles to the cells to me.

2)The alteration to his cellular is not correlated to his resistance to phaser hits within the episode, it is one of the alterations made to him.

Where is the statement that says his resistance to phasers is not do to the alterations to his cells?

3)The reason I mentioned it is that there is someone who did use medical treatment to create an individual resistant to phaser stun.

There are a number of phaser resistant creatures in Star Trek, and Riker had to disrupt a girl he liked who turned out to be an assassin because she could shrug off all the normal stun and kill settings.

It is a lot less harsh on the surrounding environment than what one would expect from straight vaporization. Although not all of the time, on several occasions we have seen phasers cause explosions such as in TNG: "Hide and Q", DS9: "Rocks and Shoals", and TOS: "Where No Man Has Gone Before".

Part of it has to do with the setting, and part of it has to do with the special effects budget.

Starship phasers are used to transfer power to other ships in a number of episodes after all. That would imply that phaser output is enough to power a starship more or less.

[Mr. Oragahn]

I have been bouncing around a similar idea for some time as well. Just without the specifics of phasers turning targets to plasma, which a directed energy weapon would partly do anyway due to the high temperatures.

There's a bit more information about the kill/stun settings from DS9: "Melora" and TNG: "Samaritan Snare"

TNG: "Samaritan Snare":

Worf: "He's already been hit by multiple phaser stuns."
PULASKI: "He could need medical attention."

DS9: "Melora":

Melora: "Why didn't the phaser kill me?"
Bashir: "I don't know. Maybe all the neuro-stimulants we've been pumping into your system."
Melora: "That's what I was wondering too."
Bashir: "You know, it might make an interesting side effect of the treatment. It's worth exploring."

From "Melora" we can see that kill, and probably stun as well, operate via neural shock rather than bodily harm. And that enough stun blasts can significantly hurt you.

Also for the standard thermal settings, they tend to evenly heat objects or portions of objects. This can be seen in DS9: "Rocks and Shoals" and various TOS episodes where they heat rocks with their phasers (TOS: "A Private Little War", TOS: "The Enemy Within").

DS9: "Rocks and Shoals":
http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ls_165.jpg
http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ls_166.jpg

Looks like a needlessly complicated weapon then. The body is hit, it should cause damage there principally, only with bonuses such as poisoning and neural seizure second.

[359]

Looks like a needlessly complicated weapon then. The body is hit, it should cause damage there principally, only with bonuses such as poisoning and neural seizure second.

It may just take less energy from the phaser's battery than causing burns to kill people allowing for more shots to be fired, also it's less messy. Also, how do you harmlessly stun someone with thermal burns? Well, obviously you don't. And why not just make that a little more potent to kill someone if the functionality is already needed.

There are even more advantages to doing it this way, but yes, in the end it is a far more complicated weapon. But isn't that what one would expect from the Federation? Their construction has always been incredibly heavily engineered, versatile, and overly complicated. All wrapped up into one small, curved, and streamlined brushed aluminum (or plastic) casing.

I'd think it all depends on the setting.

Yes, I was talking specifically about the standard kill and stun settings.

You're a skeptic, happy?

Happy.

1)Almost everything in the body is composed of cells, including the brain.

It sounds like they added organelles to the cells to me.

2)The alteration to his cellular is not correlated to his resistance to phaser hits within the episode, it is one of the alterations made to him.

Where is the statement that says his resistance to phasers is not do to the alterations to his cells?

3)The reason I mentioned it is that there is someone who did use medical treatment to create an individual resistant to phaser stun.

There are a number of phaser resistant creatures in Star Trek, and Riker had to disrupt a girl he liked who turned out to be an assassin because she could shrug off all the normal stun and kill settings.

I'm just going to jump to three:
3)The reason I mentioned it is that there is someone who did use medical treatment to create an individual resistant to phaser stun as you had suggested someone do. Not to get into an argument over how it worked, because clearly whatever it was, it did. And we do not know enough to get anything further useful from that.

and part of it has to do with the special effects budget.

Doesn't it always. :(

Starship phasers are used to transfer power to other ships in a number of episodes after all. That would imply that phaser output is enough to power a starship more or less.

This makes sense as phasers can be powered through the warp core and can provide much of its power.

[Lucky]

Yes, I was talking specifically about the standard kill and stun settings.

Do you knowhat are the standard stun and kill settings, what is the difference between settings?

I'm just going to jump to three:
3)The reason I mentioned it is that there is someone who did use medical treatment to create an individual resistant to phaser stun as you had suggested someone do. Not to get into an argument over how it worked, because clearly whatever it was, it did. And we do not know enough to get anything further useful from that.

Fair enough, but enhanced humanoids able to shrug off a stun are actually relatively common.

Doesn't it always. :(

You also have to factor in the network sensors as well. They tend to be one of the reasons why you don't see graphic effects like those at the end of "Conspiracy" often on "Family Friendly" television shows.

This makes sense as phasers can be powered through the warp core and can provide much of its power.

If Phasers fire something that rips apart atoms or molecules, or sends things into other dimensions then it does not make sense for them to be used to transfer power from ship to ship.

"Encounter at Farpoint" and "Timescape" seem to indicate that what a phaser fires is variable beam.

[Lucky]

I have been bouncing around a similar idea for some time as well. Just without the specifics of phasers turning targets to plasma, which a directed energy weapon would partly do anyway due to the high temperatures.

There's a bit more information about the kill/stun settings from DS9: "Melora" and TNG: "Samaritan Snare"

TNG: "Samaritan Snare":

Worf: "He's already been hit by multiple phaser stuns."
PULASKI: "He could need medical attention."

DS9: "Melora":

Melora: "Why didn't the phaser kill me?"
Bashir: "I don't know. Maybe all the neuro-stimulants we've been pumping into your system."
Melora: "That's what I was wondering too."
Bashir: "You know, it might make an interesting side effect of the treatment. It's worth exploring."

From "Melora" we can see that kill, and probably stun as well, operate via neural shock rather than bodily harm. And that enough stun blasts can significantly hurt you.

Also for the standard thermal settings, they tend to evenly heat objects or portions of objects. This can be seen in DS9: "Rocks and Shoals" and various TOS episodes where they heat rocks with their phasers (TOS: "A Private Little War", TOS: "The Enemy Within").

DS9: "Rocks and Shoals":
http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ls_165.jpg
http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ls_166.jpg

Looks like a needlessly complicated weapon then. The body is hit, it should cause damage there principally, only with bonuses such as poisoning and neural seizure second.

Why bother building a needlessly complicated thing like firearms when a simple bow and arrow or even just a stone off the ground can easily do the job? Something being needlessly complicated is relative to ones technological and industrial capabilities, and it is arguable that less complex tools would not be able to easily overcome expected defenses.