It's been a couple of times I've seen this Necronlord guy make claims about ZPM outputs which I find totally ridiculous.
What annoys me is that no one calls him on his rather very faulty logic, and no one tries to oppose his claims with evidence from the show, either because they don't care, or because they don't know enough Stargate stuff.
He limits his calculations based on anything that's relative to Atlantis taking off, and then even considers that the figures he finds are upper limits.
So first, let's start with a couple of threads of reference.
A comparison of power sources, on Gateworld.
Interesting thread. Despite the rather casual nature of the board, several members show a good understanding of the tech and its implications.
On the second page, I forward a rough speculation on how a ZPM works (continued here), in order to explain a couple of things, notably the different results due to ZPM overload, ranging from chained sub kiloton explosions (though the final one seen from Atlantis was slightly bigger), to planet busting abilities, if not more.
Here's a very recent thread from Murazor (the same can be found at Spacebattles.com), titled The Destruction Of Orilla commented (SG1 Unending Spoilers).
Five posts down, Necronlord intervenes and claims this:
Or... trying to make the ZPM still sound good, despite utterly nerfing the potential of such devices, and vastly ignoring the rest of the show.ZPM upper limit power output is 8 Mt/second. In fact, it's about certain that a ha'tak's reactors can generate more power, simply because they can make a ha'tak, which is hardly small, considerably more voluminous and denser than Atlantis, lift off. You're thinking of the ZPM's potential explosive power, which is another kettle of fish entirely. ZPMs are impressive because of their small size (a power density far in advance of what everyone save the Ori and the Asuryans are using), long lifespan, lack of fuel requirements, and explosive power if destroyed.
One post later, he replies thusly:
Then comes the second and older SDN thread, titled Atlantis Scaling and Zero Point Module Output, (217 Spoiler).Sure thing. Though actually, the atlantis flight is about 6.7. 8Mt/sec came from someone's estimate of the wraith bombardment, I think.The eight megatons/sec thing comes from those "Lifting Atlantis" calcs of yours. Could you give me a link, please? I have forgotten and I would like to read them again.
Warning. This thread contains a single spoiler for Stargate Atlantis, Episode 17
It's my intent to calculate how much energy a Zero Point Module outputs (not the explosions involved) from the following information.
- The city of Atlantis is less dense than water. It even floats when all naquadah generators are deactivated.
- The city is incapable of flight with one, and probably with two, Zero Point Modules. This is shown in SGAS2E17, where McKay asserts that the city would still be incapable of flight with two functioning Zero Point Modules.
"We might even be able to light up the engines, and get the city to fly"
"Really?"
"No, but we still need it [a second ZPM]"
Because it is less dense than water, it is possible to estimate an upper limit for the city's mass from calculating or estimating (Do I look like I'm mad enough to try for an exact number? It's all pointy, and tower-y) its volume.
Atlantis Scaling
Image 1
This image shows the outside of the main tower. Highlighted is the balcony outside the control areas of Atlantis. The flat part of that is somewhat larger than the stargate. This can be seen in the interior set plans of the gateroom area presented on the gallery of scifi.com. This makes the red line approximately five meters across. The blue line appears to be equal to the red line.
Image 2
Here we see the tower from above. That section of it is 39.9 pixels (Sqr. Root of 1597pixels² [34²*21²]) across. The tower itself is, at its widest point, around 200 pixels across. This is 5 times 5 meters, or 25 meters across.
Now, the ratio of the width of the central tower to its height is 1:10.6 (15:160 pixels on an image I used as a basis) and the ratio of the width of the tower's wide point to the base of the city is approximately 1:36.3 (15:545) Therefore, the approximate height of Atlantis, aerials excluded, from sea level is 265 meters. The approximate diameter of the base is 908.3 meters. This is of course, quite small for a city, but one can only assume that the Ancient civilization's population was relatively low - such an emphasis on high quality, low volume seems to have doomed them to fail in their war against the Wraith, after all.
Now, SGAS2E13 shows a side-on schematic of the city, with a strange, giant spike structure emerging from its underside - possibly an anchor, as this does not appear to be visible in the opening minutes of Rising, when the city was on land.We'll ignore this though, as we can handily fit it into the space between the snowflake-piers.
Volume and Mass
1.7171e+8 m³
Density of Seawater Saay... 1030 Kg/m³ We'll assume that Atlantia's (hey, have to call it something) seawater is the same as Earth's. It's certainly unlikely to be much different, water is presumably the main constituent.
1.7171e+8*1030= 176,861,300,000 Kg. However, be aware that this is likely an order of magnitude or so beyond the actual volume of the city, as you can tell to look at it that it's not a cylinder. However, we want to make a generous upper limit...
Additionally, in the opening scene of Rising, when the main engines of the city engage, with a rather large flash, the velocity seems to change in one second from around 265 meters (one city-height) per second, to something around a kilometer five kilometers per second (four city-heights {no spike here, remember, so 265 meters}} This is a velocity change of approx 800 m/s/s. 56,595,616,000,000,000 Watts or (b]13.53 Mt per second[/b]. We know that 2 Zero Point Modules are incapable of achieving this energy output, however, this may be close to the output of two zero point modules, so I would conclude that the upper limit of sustained energy output of a ZPM is somwhat below, but close to 6.75 Mt/s. Going by the 8 Mt/s calc for the shields of Atlantis previously, I would say that the Atlantis shield is capable of drawing the energy of multiple ZPMs simultaneously. So, comments? Debunkings?
So let's see what's wrong with those claims.
- First. I can't figure out how someone who seems fairly engaged into Stargate's technical side was still unaware, by 2006, of the existence of calcs putting the city at more than 3 km wide, instead of 900 meters wide. Calcs confirmed by secondary ones, from the episode Sunday, based on Rodney's height while standing on the edge of a pier.
More, one year later, fully knowing where his calculations came from, he's still doesn't consider it necessary to revisit his own.
The real volume of his cylinder should have been, at the very least, for a radius of 1.5 km, about 4,311,835,917.052 m³.
Of course, we know that the real volume is nowhere this value, so with some form of luck, his too-small-cylinder based estimation might actually end being close to the real volume of Atlantis. - Secondly, let's remember that the Lantians use mass lighting technology, which they even put on their puddle jumpers.
Seeing that they wouldn't use that tech if it did cost more than a simple newtonian push would, the fact is that the power consumption is going to be clearly lower than any non exotic estimation.
It's therefore likely that we should be looking at a terawatt range. - Thirdly, I find it suspicious that from a website such as SDN, which is hardly known for parsimony when it comes to Star Wars, estimations for another show like Stargate end being particularily shy, and that those numbers are estimated the undisputed be and end all of upper limits, even one year later!
Funny thing, considering the vast amount of notes you can find in Stargate which really point to much much higher power levels, and how simple observation, as you'll see, is enough to see that his calculations should have been followed, at the very least, by a reflexion on how this fits with the vast rest of Stargate's lore.
- In McKay & Mrs Miller, I've estimated that the maximum power output they got from the ZPM was 2% per second when they tried to stabilize the transuniverse rift (they previously had the ZPE generator work at 5%, but this is irrelevant to how much the ZPM was outputting later on, since 1% of this generator could correspond to pretty much anything from the ZPM's output, orders of magnitude greater or smaller).
So 50 seconds are required to deplete a ZPM at this rate.
It is not easy to know if this the higher flux Atlantis' power conduits can handle, but we know that's at least how much power the man made trinity-like generator could accept from the ZPM, since Zelenka, monitoring the flux, says that "Power is at full". - If we consider that this is the maximum output from one ZPM, and possibly limited by the amount of energy the man-made generator could receive, it would mean that 2% = 6.75 Megatons.
It's logical to make this claim, since they were maxing out their power reserves, in First Strike, to lift the damn city.
So a full ZPM would only be able to provide 337.5 megatons of energy, before being totally depleted.
Of course, the real figure is not necessarily exact, since it's highly dependant on very generous volumetrics, but we can safely assume that we're looking at numbers in the megaton range.
So. Does this not strike you out as just completely absurd?
And that is, of course, if we don't say that the real maximum output, being 100%, is equal to 6.75 MT. Of course, we know that this can't be, since the ZPM would be depleted in one second, after trying to lift Atlantis.
But even 6.75 MT per second, over 50 seconds, it just damn too just short of anything. - Let's use some common sense here. The Lantians dropped any major power source in favour of the ZPMs millions of years ago, and exclusively used them to power their city. Only independant structures or vessels were known to use other power sources of less importance.
Let me ask you this simple question: do you think the Lantians would use power sources which can't ouput more than 337.5 megatons of energy each, before being depleted, despite having a huge ship and lot of space to accomodate for other reactors? - What about the frequently bitchslapped Goa'uld, whose ha'taks have reactors which let them output, at the very least, hundreds of megatons for a single weapon salvo, and up to tens or hundreds of gigatons of energy total?
What about the fact that the explosion of Apophis' supership, going critical, was an exoton affair?
Or the fact that when Cronus' ha'tak crashed on Delmak, we could contemplate a 2 digits teraton level explosion?
And what about the Tau'ri, whose crude missiles and mines reach the gigaton range with small amounts of raw naqahdah, an ore which the Alterans and Lantians have used at lenghts to create the stargates in the Milky Way?
Or how the heavier Goa'uld bombs would pack even more energy than Tau'ri 1.2 GT mines? - Ask yourself why the Lantians would use ZPM with a high end power output of a very few megatons, lasting for only 50 seconds, when there's a vast pile of references that point out naqahdah based reactions leading to, at least, gigaton events, and how an isotope such as naqahdria, can reach near teraton levels.
- It is not only a question of energy maximum, since this could not be estimated before McKay & Mrs Miller. But it's a question of power output, which could have been debunked much earlier.
If a ZPM can only provide a few megatons of energy per second, could you tell me how it could actually withstand the constant bombardment of a Wraith armada composed of 10 hiveships and between 20 and 30 cruisers?
For the record, Misbegotten has shown that a damaged hiveships, piloted by Teyla, with the help of McKay, and at best, only able to provide 50% of its normal power output, still achieved this low end level of damage on the surface of a world. - Or look at this montage (don't pay attention to the radius figures, I think they're too high since I didn't know, back then, that it was a composition of several blasts). Yet, they're still quite impressive.
Now put that on Atlantis shield. Even when strictly speaking of direct energy transfer weapon, you realize that this Necronlord's figures can't work.
Even more when you consider the ZPM's derivated upper energy limit (337.5 MT), since the already drained ZPM, by the time of Siege part III, was said to be under incredible strain, and would be depleted within days.
Even with a total of one megaton of energy per second hitting the shield, after two days, the ZPM would have delivered 172,800 megatons of energy, and 518,400 megatons after 6 days.
Doesn't add up, does it?
This is, above all, a very, very low end, for the reasons provided below: - There's the simple fact that in Critical Mass, the expedition's single ZPM, which wasn't even near full, was said to be able to destroy the planet in its entirety after overloading.
The meaning of overloading can't be simpler: the ZPM generates too much energy, and can't dump it. Energy accumulates, and an explosion ensues.
Should we even mention Carter's estimation of a half full ZPM overloading being able to bust our star system?
As introduced above, based on such levels of energy, it would mean that the weapons the Wraith used against the shield were, much like the Asuran beam, meant to weaken it and drain any power source directly tied to it, such as a ZPM, and were, as such, much more exotic in nature, than other "energy" weapons that would act like nukes once impacting upon the ground of planets.
Based on these estimations, themselves derived from a planet busting ZPM, and not a star system busting ZPM, we end with a draining rate of 385.5 petatons per second.
This article I link to also highlights the different looking weapons the Wraith have used against their enemies. The "Falling Stars" are the shield draining weapons, but excessively weak against matter.
The "Fireballs" are much more like your SF DET weapon, and act like nukes, with yields which I have estimated being in the gigaton range. - Ah, of course, remember that even a crippled hiveship can withstand many direct hits from another fully powered and shiny hiveship. Which speaks well of the armour they use.
And of course, those same hiveships will often end entirely vaporized by the sheer energy released from internal explosions (triggered by a single nuke exploding within, but clearly not doing most of the damage, even if it dooms such ships). - What about the idea that Rodney claimed that 3 ZPMs were absolutely necessary to lift the city and take it into space?
Well, obviously, the writers, probably realizing that they put themselves into a hole, tried to retcon this "fact", by the end of season 3. There, in First Strike, we see that now only one ZPM, helped with some geothermal energy harvesting, is enough to get that city fly.
Think about it. What about the frakin' fact that the Wraith can lift their 11 km long hiveships out of craters, including all the soil and trees that's on them?
But then, I suppose that the Wraith have power sources which are billions of times better than ZPMs, right?
That's it. The simple fact that the writers thought that Atlantis couldn't be lifed without ZPMs, while the Wraith have nothing close to that, and yet manage to take their behemoths off the ground, just proves that they didn't think much about this.
So we're left trying to find solutions. - So what are the explanations? Why did Rodney think that many ZPMs were needed? Why does it seem that even one single ZPM can't even lift a cityship?
- Severe misunderstanding of the mechanics of the city's stardrive. Weird, because they're essentially big thrusters. But hey, shouldn't it be time that Rodney doesn't understand at least something about Lantian tech? You know... for the sake of, huh, realism...
- Mass lighting system badly calibrated, and making the city absurdly heavier from the moment the stardrive is activated, instead of making it lighter. Of course, it would mean that we're talking about a level of "efficient mass" that would likely have all sorts of side effects on gravity all around the city. So that is far fetched.
- Stardrive controls badly calibrated, and blocked, for some reason, at accepting an absurdly low power.
Say that the system is made to work with 3 ZPMs. Not that it requires them, but it's like a safecheck, a sort of dumb prerequisite, and if the city doesn't detect 3 ZPMs, it refuses to let the ZPMs directly power the stardrives, so the energy circuit is derivated and goes through a smaller power grid which only accepts an extremely low energy flux (a couple of megatons or kilotons per second at best).
This would tie into the idea that the city is, for some reason, better suited to work with 3 ZPMs in parallel, and may even explain why it seems that lifting the city out of the "rules" shakes it like if it was going to collapse within the next minute.
- In First Strike, maybe the Asuran virus did do some damage after all, which somehow messed up with the controls. It would be logical, since they probably wanted to nail the city and prevent it from escaping.
