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 Post subject: Sovereign-class vs. Galaxy-class
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 4:45 pm 
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Hey everyone,

I've always considered the Sovereign-class to be the most powerful Starfleet vessels in the 2370s, however, I have recently seen some interesting arguments which claim that the Galaxy-class is more powerful than the Sovereign-class. What do you guys think about this? Based on what we've seen, which one do you think would be considered Starfleet's cream of the crop in the 2370s?

I apologize if this has been discussed before. I used the forum search function, but didn't find anything.


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 Post subject: Re: Sovereign-class vs. Galaxy-class
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 5:13 pm 
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411-RED wrote:
Hey everyone,

I've always considered the Sovereign-class to be the most powerful Starfleet vessels in the 2370s, however, I have recently seen some interesting arguments which claim that the Galaxy-class is more powerful than the Sovereign-class. What do you guys think about this? Based on what we've seen, which one do you think would be considered Starfleet's cream of the crop in the 2370s?

I apologize if this has been discussed before. I used the forum search function, but didn't find anything.


The galaxy class was slightly larger than the Sovereign class but it was built in the peaceful era prior to the Borg attack and the Dominion war, the Sovereign class was constructed with considerably better offensive and defensive systems and designed as a warship as well as a ship of exploration.

But by all means post the arguments you refer to as id like to see them, or link the site they are on.


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 Post subject: Re: Sovereign-class vs. Galaxy-class
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 5:42 pm 
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Sure thing.

http://www.stexcalibur.com/forum/index. ... 28.80.html

http://www.stexcalibur.com/forum/index. ... 170.0.html


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 Post subject: Re: Sovereign-class vs. Galaxy-class
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 8:01 pm 
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I've never heard of this place. Is this a fan-made game? And is their boast of a canon universe accurate?

The argument that the Galaxy is more powerful than the Sovereign seems to be primarily based on volume and the length of the arrays. Phaser typing is touched on, but Ilithi-Dragon brushes it aside, claiming that we've never seen the Sovereign fire a shot as powerful as the Galaxy, referencing "Q-Who." I would have thought "Inheritance" or "Masks" would have been brought up, since we can calc those against targets we know the composition of. The argument that volume is the best determinant of power fails in the face of the mere existence of the Defiant class. Volume is a factor, but Trek has shown us a trend of miniaturization and automation. The crew-to-volume ratio has been steadily dropping. Look at how crowded the Consitution class was vs the Galaxy class. And the Defiant has only 50 people of board ("Paradise Lost"). And what is all that volume in the Galaxy class used for? She has at least nine fusion reactors, (though, as "Who Watches the Watchers" showed us, fusion reactors can be tiny) multiple holodecks, large cargo bays, space for 1000 people (though junior officers share quarters as per "Lower Decks"), science labs, etc. The Defiant is stated repeatedly to be a ship of no creature comforts, enabling her to be as small as possible while still remaining a capable warship. The fact is that most of the extra volume of the Galaxy is committed to non-military uses, rendering the volume=firepower argument invalid.


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 Post subject: Re: Sovereign-class vs. Galaxy-class
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:28 pm 
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Excalibur hasn't been released yet, and I think they developers recently said it is only in the Pre-Alpha stage of development. It was originally intended to be a mod for Star Trek: Bridge Commander, but they decided to make it a separate game, and it is being built on the NanoFX Evolved engine (and it's my understanding that the engine is being built alongside the game). So far, everything I've seen looks promising.

And yes, it is fan made, and is expected to be freeware.

You can check out there YouTube channel here, and you can check out images of the ships and stations they've developed so far here, along with some other things including animations and interiors.

Anyways...

I will show Ilithi your post and perhaps he will join Starfleet Jedi, assuming he isn't already a member.

Personally, I am still of the opinion that the Sovereign-class is stronger. She performed admirably in Nemesis and kept up a good rate of fire throughout the entire battle. One thing I have noticed about Galaxy-class ships, especially the Enterprise-D in particular, is that while they have demonstrated a good ability to unload lots of weaponry at once, they never follow through. I'm thinking the torpedo reload and phaser recharge times are slow, perhaps because they rely on only one fore and one aft torpedo launcher, and the forward phaser arc is primarily covered by only two, long phaser strips. Ships developed after the Galaxy and Nebula-class seemed to have moved away from their tactical design, and began using multiple, smaller phaser strips and multiple torpedo launchers.


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 Post subject: Re: Sovereign-class vs. Galaxy-class
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 11:10 pm 
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I hope I make a good advertisement for SFJ.

Anyway, the Defiant/Lakota battle shows us that even the comparatively primitive ball-turrets of the Excelsior class can be upgraded to considerable firepower, enough to threaten a Defiant class starship.

As for the Prometheus, I always saw the scene as follows: we know the multi-vector assaults are preprogrammed and controlled by the computer. Once MV mode is engaged, the Prometheus allows the Bonchune to overtake her, enabling her to surround the Bonchune and forcing it to split its shield strength. The fact that the Prometheus makes short work of the Nebula, survives an assault by two Defiants and an Akira, and destroys a D'Deridex warbird (which TNG shows us to be a rough match to the Galaxy, slightly weaker in firepower but still a credible threat) suggests the Prometheus should be more than a match for the Galaxy class.

I, like you, have trouble buying the premise that a ship developed in a period of relative peace, before first contact with the Borg, and which carries families and children could outmatch a ship developed in light of the Borg threat, a ship stated to be the most advanced at the time of her first appearance and which is clearly more militaristic in conception.


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 Post subject: Re: Sovereign-class vs. Galaxy-class
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 4:12 am 
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In all honesty, after reviewing the linked to threads, I have yet to see anyone make any kind of meaningful case for a Galaxy being stronger than a Sovereign class starship. For many of the claims in that thread, I saw little in the way of citing any actual evidence, it was instead more of a "because it is".
-Mike


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 Post subject: Re: Sovereign-class vs. Galaxy-class
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 4:17 am 
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411-RED wrote:
Hey everyone,

I've always considered the Sovereign-class to be the most powerful Starfleet vessels in the 2370s, however, I have recently seen some interesting arguments which claim that the Galaxy-class is more powerful than the Sovereign-class. What do you guys think about this? Based on what we've seen, which one do you think would be considered Starfleet's cream of the crop in the 2370s?

I apologize if this has been discussed before. I used the forum search function, but didn't find anything.


Sovereign hands down.

Yes, the Galaxy class is a powerhouse of a ship in the Alpha Quadrant and was probably the most numerous heavy weights in the fleet during the Dominion War. However, keep in mind that the Galaxy Class wasn't designed for war. The Sovereign class was pretty much the next step, derived from technology tested on other ships like the Defiant. It has a stronger warp core, what appears to be regenerative shielding, possibly ablative armor, greater warp speeds, and a greater sense of tactical ability thanks to having more torpedo tubes and more phaser arrays (even if they are smaller, but that's not such a big deal if you a) make the arrays stronger to compensate and b) you can target more enemies).

Now, when the Galaxy goes through its next refit, I wouldn't doubt that it would rival the Sovereign in terms of shielding capacity and firepower, but it's simply not designed to be a warship from the ground up. But then again, it doesn't have to be.


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 Post subject: Re: Sovereign-class vs. Galaxy-class
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:32 am 
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The Prometheus (launched in 2374) is a interesting ship it is two thirds the length of the galaxy class with obviously a less bulky and stronger design, designed to be faster than any other ship in the fleet, type 12 phasers, photon and quantum torpedoes, regenerative shielding and the multi-vector assault mode.

The multi-vector assault mode is quite impressive as it seems to fix the weapons, in message in a bottle during the final battle the phasers are said to be offline so they fire a torpedo, they get hit again and all weapons ect go offline. But they activate multi-vector assault mode (by mistake) and hey presto all 3 sections fire a phaser burst each and easily destroy a D'deridex.

I would say it is the equal or close to it to the Sovereign class (launched in 2372) and perhaps has the edge in some circumstances with the multi-vector assault mode allowing it to attack multiple shield vectors at the same time. I am not sure if it would beat the Enterprise-E refit (2379) that was in nemesis but it would stand a good chance.

It is interesting to note that they upgraded the E-E with more weapons and slightly different nacelles after just 5 years of service with the E-D really just got the occasional metaphoric oil change and service in 7 years (2364 when it was launched to 2371 when it was destroyed in Generations).


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 Post subject: Re: Sovereign-class vs. Galaxy-class
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 6:10 pm 
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Kor_Dahar_Master wrote:
The Prometheus (launched in 2374) is a interesting ship it is two thirds the length of the galaxy class with obviously a less bulky and stronger design, designed to be faster than any other ship in the fleet, type 12 phasers, photon and quantum torpedoes, regenerative shielding and the multi-vector assault mode.

The multi-vector assault mode is quite impressive as it seems to fix the weapons, in message in a bottle during the final battle the phasers are said to be offline so they fire a torpedo, they get hit again and all weapons ect go offline. But they activate multi-vector assault mode (by mistake) and hey presto all 3 sections fire a phaser burst each and easily destroy a D'deridex.

I would say it is the equal or close to it to the Sovereign class (launched in 2372) and perhaps has the edge in some circumstances with the multi-vector assault mode allowing it to attack multiple shield vectors at the same time. I am not sure if it would beat the Enterprise-E refit (2379) that was in nemesis but it would stand a good chance.

It is interesting to note that they upgraded the E-E with more weapons and slightly different nacelles after just 5 years of service with the E-D really just got the occasional metaphoric oil change and service in 7 years (2364 when it was launched to 2371 when it was destroyed in Generations).


To be fair, that was probably after Insurrection. If I recall, it not only got into a scrap, but also very likely suffered damage to the impulse engines (ie, the nebula was harmful to standard impulse engines).


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 Post subject: Re: Sovereign-class vs. Galaxy-class
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 8:52 pm 
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Mith wrote:

To be fair, that was probably after Insurrection. If I recall, it not only got into a scrap, but also very likely suffered damage to the impulse engines (ie, the nebula was harmful to standard impulse engines).


You are right it was refitted after insurrection in 2375 and although we have no exact stardate it was before the end of the dominion war. Unfortunatly we do not have a exact stardate for the end of the war but the penultimate episode "The Dogs of War" was on 52861.3 so the refit was before then. So launched on star date 49827 that was the latter part of 2372 and refit earlier than 52861 that was early to mid 2375 it got a overhall in well under 3 years.

Still depending on where you get your figures from the Prometheus class matches or exceeds the Sov refit armament.


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 Post subject: Re: Sovereign-class vs. Galaxy-class
 Post Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 4:13 pm 
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I would say, in terms of power, the Sovie is first, then the Prometheus, then the Defiant/Galaxy Dominion War Refit.

As for the comparable power of the Galaxy and Sovereign, remember the E-D was taken down by an old BoP of which it could not penetrate the shields, while the E-E resisted a heck of a beatdown by the ultimate ship in the Scimitar in Nem.

E-E wins, but it is as close a matchup as the Defiant vs the Lakota... :)


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 Post subject: Re: Sovereign-class vs. Galaxy-class
 Post Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 7:23 pm 
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Praeothmin wrote:
I would say, in terms of power, the Sovie is first, then the Prometheus, then the Defiant/Galaxy Dominion War Refit.

As for the comparable power of the Galaxy and Sovereign, remember the E-D was taken down by an old BoP of which it could not penetrate the shields, while the E-E resisted a heck of a beatdown by the ultimate ship in the Scimitar in Nem.;;E

-E wins, but it is as close match up as the Defiant vs the Lakota... :)


With regenerative shields the sov would win easily, the E-D's shield vectors would be worn down quickly even if it maneuvered to face undamaged ones to the E-E, while the more maneuverable E-E's shield vectors would regenerate if not shot at.

Arsenal of freedom showed just how owned the E-D would have been against the scimitar as the situation was very similar. The E-D could not even locate or hit the cloaked ship and had to use the atmosphere to find it, without that it woulda been humped.

A easy win for the sov just like the Defiant would rape the Lakota if it did not have its hands tied...............:).


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 Post subject: Re: Sovereign-class vs. Galaxy-class
 Post Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 9:39 pm 
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Kor_Dahar_Master wrote:
Arsenal of freedom showed just how owned the E-D would have been against the scimitar as the situation was very similar. The E-D could not even locate or hit the cloaked ship and had to use the atmosphere to find it, without that it woulda been humped.


That is actually a bit of an unfair comparison since the Scimitar was an enourmous vessel; nearly 50 percent longer than the E-E, and more than twice as wide in "wingspan" than the E-E is long as seen here in the Memory Alpha article images on the big warbird.

The Echo Papa drone, while much bigger than the ones attacking the E-D's way team on the surface, it was actually still a very tiny target, and it was cloaked. Just take a look at the Trekcore images from TAoF here. The phaser beam hitting the drone places it in the 6-10 meter tall range.
-Mike


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 Post subject: Re: Sovereign-class vs. Galaxy-class
 Post Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 11:10 pm 
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Mike DiCenso wrote:
Kor_Dahar_Master wrote:
Arsenal of freedom showed just how owned the E-D would have been against the scimitar as the situation was very similar. The E-D could not even locate or hit the cloaked ship and had to use the atmosphere to find it, without that it woulda been humped.


That is actually a bit of an unfair comparison since the Scimitar was an enourmous vessel; nearly 50 percent longer than the E-E, and more than twice as wide in "wingspan" than the E-E is long as seen here in the Memory Alpha article images on the big warbird.

The Echo Papa drone, while much bigger than the ones attacking the E-D's way team on the surface, it was actually still a very tiny target, and it was cloaked. Just take a look at the Trekcore images from TAoF here. The phaser beam hitting the drone places it in the 6-10 meter tall range.
-Mike


I would check the scaling on that as the beam widens more than it should, not only that but the drones range sucked if it had to enter the atmosphere to stay in range of the E-D.


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