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Chee Rejects EU Completism, Confirms Separate Continuities 
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As many of you might've noticed, certain EU Completist militants who fought against movie purism or dual-canon ideas have been extensively quoting Chee over the past year or so. After the Starlog Incident of 2005, with Lucas clearly explaining separate universes yet again, these opponents of the canon found succor in some statements of Chee which they took to be contrary to my own, even to the point that they tried to present our discussion on the StarWars.com forums as some sort of vicious attack on my part.

So, let's see if they quote him now:

http://www.canonwars.com/weblog/2006/12 ... nuity.html

I rather doubt it.


Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:35 am
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I expect to hear that what you say he meant isn't what he meant. Frankly, I think Chee isn't going to get any more explicit than that. Read that how you may.


Fri Dec 22, 2006 8:01 am
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Well, here's the initial batch of responses. It's interesting how long it took them to finally bring the quotes up at SDN and admit that it doesn't look good at all for them. I call this the "Hide and Eek" approach.

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=102815

"Mange" (aka "Mange the Swede") posted the quotes, simply noting:

"posted this as I thought this contradicted (or could be used as seen to do it and has been used that way) Chee's earlier statement regarding continuity"

SDN poster Jim Raynor, who engaged in a four month Wiki-war at Wikipedia to get anything written by me stricken from the links list of the Star Wars canon page, said:

"This is new, but Chee explicitly isn't saying that the films are the only canon. Only that there are now two separate, but BOTH official continuities: film only, and film + EU. He doesn't explicitly say which one is "superior," although he does still imply that it's film + EU . But I bet Darkstar and other movie purists would absolutely masturbate over all of this if they saw these new posts.

You're right, this does contradict what he said earlier about there being one overall continuity."

So we see here the seed of a potential line of argument . . . that Chee's "Film + EU" canon is somehow "superior". I'm sure they'll be sure to ask Lucas that question . . . after all, it's his continuity that they're suggesting might be inferior.

Vympel noted:

" there is still precisely no valid reason for "movie purists" to argue that the EU is not canon, and there never will be so long as LFL exists and makes money off its creations :) "

I concur completely, and say as much on my canon page. Both movie purists and EU Completists are wrong.

The dual-canon idea is the way to go. Lucas leads us that way, Rostoni agress, and even Chee's tagging along now. Nathan Butler and I were the first verbose Star Wars fans to suggest that we and the rest of the hoi polloi ought to follow along, but some just don't want to come.

But that's just my take on it.


Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:47 am
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*gasp a trinoya post!*


...

I'll say it only once.

WOOT.


That is all.


Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:53 am
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Wow, thank you posters on SDN. I had no idea how clear it all is. Chee put forward this correctional statement as a way of not offending anyone, while still subtly reinforcing the superiority of film+EU canon, by saying it still exists.

*stops being sarcastic and cynical*

Faulty logic aside, there was one interest nugget I gleaned from the SDN thread, Chee will never say the Films are the only canon, because his job depends on that not being true. As for Star Wars not stopping with the movies, that is half true. George Lucas's Star Wars stops with the films (and soon the TV shows depending upon his level of involvement), but then there is that second Star Wars with the EU, you know the one Lucas isn't involved with.


Sat Jan 06, 2007 2:46 am
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AnonymousRedShirtEnsign wrote:
Faulty logic aside, there was one interest nugget I gleaned from the SDN thread, Chee will never say the Films are the only canon, because his job depends on that not being true.


I've never understood that. Chee's job has to do with maintaining an overall continuity for the Lucas companies' licensed products. Why the heck does that mean it has to be canon? And why would that have anything to do with the status of his job? Besides, just the fact alone that it's a separate continuity would most likely mean it has its own canon policy, so them having a special canon label for G and C level material would make sense within that continuity. But I don’t see why whether or not the Film+EU continuity is the more "canon" of the two would have any bearing on Chee’s job.

Anyway, I see the overriding issue as this:

Quote:
Anything not in the current version of the films is irrelevant to Film only continuity.


Quote:
The EU must follow certain tenets set by George through the films and other guidelines that he provides outside of the films.


Ok, so if the Film+EU continuity has to follow everything set forth by the Film-only continuity, but the Film-only continuity can completely disregard the EU (sure, Lucas tries to keep it consistent for the fans and for the other Lucas companies' sake, but still), why in the world would we accept the Film+EU continuity as the more overriding and official one? Because it's bigger? So?

Furthermore, I don't get all this talk about how "Chee is contradicting himself". When Chee first said:

Quote:
There is one overall continuity.


I always took that as him referring solely to the Holocron, and only the Holocron (because I mean, as far as Chee was probably concerned, if you ask the keeper of the Holocron about a question relating to continuity or canon, you're probably referring to the Holocron itself). It wasn't until someone asked him specifically about things outside of licensing and the Holocron that he started talking about multiple continuities. And when he said:

Quote:
On the other hand, the quote you provide makes it sound like the EU is separate from George's vision of the Star Wars universe. It is not.


A bunch of people declared victory, but again, I didn't see why, considering that when you put that quote within the context of the entire statement, specifically the sentence that followed it:

Quote:
The EU must follow certain tenets set by George through the films and other guidelines that he provides outside of the films.


You'll notice that what Chee is actually saying is that the EU is not allowed to contradict Geore Lucas' vision as he has presented it (and no, I don't mean stuff like him mentioning that to him, Boba Fett is dead). Hell, the fact that the first sentence in he specifically says that George Lucas is allowed to contradict the EU should make it clear that he's not trying to say it's the same universe or continuity or whatnot.

I don’t really see why it matters either. Fans have been getting told for years that canon is more or less something that fans obsess over and that it’s best left to one’s own interpretation. So why does it really matter which continuity everyone picks as the "real" one? So they can have a common ground to argue on? Big deal. See, this is one of the things I like about SJ.Net. The person who starts the conversation/debate/discussion should just say what they’re basing the topic off of, and people who feel like joining in can, and those who don’t wish to, can choose not to (obviously). Same goes for making a website, just pick whatever you feel like, and those that choose to disregard it can and will (isn’t that what we do anyway?). This whole attitude that one must "win" the canon/continuity debate just so they can prove the other side wrong in some sci-fi debate is pure silliness.


Sat Jan 06, 2007 4:11 am
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"But I don’t see why whether or not the Film+EU continuity is the more 'canon' of the two would have any bearing on Chee’s job." It doesn't. The point I was trying to make wasn't that the EU had to be the supreme canon, but just that it had to be canon in some sense. I highly doubt that Chee will say that the canon that includes the EU is superior, since he would basically be saying George Lucas no longer controls the real Star Wars. As for the lack necessity for Chee's job in a movie purist world, if the EU isn't canon on some level, then it doesn't really matter if continuity is maintained outside of the films.


Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:13 am
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Look at it this way: There are people who's job is to maintain and keep track of the continuity of the Star Trek expanded universe (they just aren't nearly as public about it nor keep a public "holocron" of any sort), but the literature and other stuff within their own continuity doesn't have any real canon status. But it's still a real part of that continuity. And thus their job is still just as important.

I guess you could argue that with Chee it is a bit different, since his job is more public. However, if they were to suddenly say that the C level canon is suddenly not canon at all, would that mean that Chee's job would all of a sudden be pointless? I don't see how. Because the EU is still an essential part of that continuity. Plus, as far as the holocron goes, another big part of it is maintaining the other S and N levels, which are not canon either.

Furthermore, even if you suddenly declared that the EU was completely non-canon, that wouldn't suddenly turn everything into a movie-purists world. The EU is still popular enough that there would still be a demand for internal consistency and someone to answer questions about it, thus Chee.

Now of course, technically speaking, it's impossible to have the C level material not be canon at least at some level while simultaneously being included in a continuity (even if it didn't happen to be the main one). The same goes for much of the Star Trek's EU. It is canon within that other continuity, but beyond that, no.

Interestingly, a real argument can now be made that the EU continuity of Star Wars doesn't have any more of a valid place in discussions than the EU continuity of Star Trek.


Last edited by Socar on Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:13 am, edited 1 time in total.



Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:33 am
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And for all the folks confused by this at home...

In short:

There is the star wars that lucas made, which is the supreme over rulling starwars and doesn't have to care about the EU at all.

And then there is this lesser starwars, that other people made, which has to attempt to keep in line with the films (but ironically enough not with the rest of the EU... go figure! HA, ICS EXPLAINED!).


...


err... I'm pretty sure if I post more than once a week the world ends so... umm... sorry.


Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:35 am
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There's already some word spinning attempts, as two official continuities does not mean mutually exclusive continuities.

Funny, I would have thought that the existence of two continuities, thus different continuities (otherwise there's no point having two of them if they're the very same) would have made it clear that we're talking about two different storylines, two different canons.

This is a major shift in that both canons are officially recognized, and that you won't have people harping on you because you reject the EU. That counts for all Star Wars sites, international or not, and not only those few versus ones.

For quite some time, you were considered wrong in saying that the purist continuity was canon. THAT is the point.

Now we know both are canon and separate.

Now, are both canons on equal terms, or is there one that has more weight than the other?
Frankly, does it really matter? As long as a community decides which canon they go by, that's fine.

SD.net and SB.com prefer the EU encompassing one. Here and other boards, the purist one seems to be better, though it's highly dependant on the post's author.


Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:31 pm
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Mr. Oragahn wrote:
There's already some word spinning attempts, as two official continuities does not mean mutually exclusive continuities.


Well, not directly, but the mutual exclusivity is handed down directly from Lucas and Chee. Chee states specifically that facts from the EU do not factor in to the Lucas continuity.

Quote:
This is a major shift in that both canons are officially recognized,


True. However, the foes of Lucasfilm (for indeed I can think of no better description of them) still reject the change.

Poe, exemplifying his wit and refinement, rejects StarWars.com info on the grounds that "I couldn't give less of a f*** about whatever spews from sw.com anymore, since the f***tards took over." Of course, he also uses as evidence for his claim the old byline for the EU section of StarWars.com, where it suggests that there's more to Star Wars than just the films (and, somehow, we're supposed to think that means it is factually accurate in the Lucas continuity).

SDN user Kane Starkiller pretends in their response thread that this is a total 'so-what' moment and that nothing has changed. He argues that the two continuities are no different than Wong's old statement (graphically explained here) wherein the films and the EU (minus the Infinities bits) are contained within an overall continuity.

Of course, that is a total misread of Chee's statement. Chee's "there is one overall continuity" is what he now calls the "Films+EU" continuity. The Lucas continuity is separate.

But I'm sure we'll be hearing the Starkiller claim again in the future.

Quote:
and that you won't have people harping on you because you reject the EU.


Oh, I'm sure they'll continue to harp on me for that. The EU Defense Forces on all these boards survived Nathan Butler and I, along with all the Lucas parallel/separate universe statements, with their worldviews intact. That tells me that at least some of the members will be more than able to perform all the mental gymnastics required to keep the faith.

Quote:
For quite some time, you were considered wrong in saying that the purist continuity was canon. THAT is the point.

Now we know both are canon and separate.


It was only logic.

Quote:
Now, are both canons on equal terms, or is there one that has more weight than the other?


Jim Raynor of SDN made the same sort of point/question . . . wondering which is superior. It never occurred to me until he asked. I mean, why should one have to be superior? What does that even mean?

But if it is a question, my answer would have to be that the Lucas continuity is the superior. How could it be any other way?


Sun Jan 07, 2007 4:31 am
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I do have one question: How is SB.com reacting to this statement? In line with SDN, or diverging?


Sun Jan 07, 2007 10:52 pm
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As a rule, SB is slow on the uptake with such matters. If it's even mentioned at SB, the pro-SDN bloc there (entrenched in the form of moderators Alyeska and HBMC) will simply parrot the SDN line.

Speaking of which, personally I'm interested in Alyeska's view. When the Insider #68 quote came out back in 2003, Alyeska, formerly a pro-Trek debater, concluded that all the ICS books were canon and conceded all pro-Trek arguments he'd made. (link)

That was several months after the July 2002 Cinescape quote wherein Lucas used the term "parallel universe", a quote which appeared shortly after my initial argument to the same effect appeared. Alyeska ignored that line of thinking at the time, and to my knowledge has continued to do so.

It has been my opinion that Alyeska's concession was less about logic and more about community . . . that is to say, he was interested in being buddies more than being right, as the love-fest he received at SDN (where he went from tolerated hate-mailer to beloved moderator almost overnight) suggests. However, as I recall his concession was claimed to be a concession of logic and conscience.

With the Starlog quote from last year . . . er, 2005 I mean . . . and now the Chee quotes, I'm curious to know how his conscience is doing, and how (or if) he logically justifies his continued rejection of the parallel universe dual-canon idea.

Granted, I don't exactly have the highest regard for Alyeska's capacities of reason, but I'm always happy to be pleasantly surprised. Even moreso than in regards to Starlog 2005, this is his moment of truth.


Mon Jan 08, 2007 5:03 am
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It should be noted that Alyeska still gets heavily flamed by Mike Wong and others for some of his views on Star Trek (specifically, his method of analysis). And I get the feeling that there are quite a few people who are not completely convinced that he's become totally entrenched in their line of thinking, and that it's more of matter of being in denial. I think Mike even once called him a "more reasonable version of vivFTP", or something along those lines.

I remember someone a while back saying how they thought that Alyeska's "concession" was more a matter of him waiting for the right opportunity to move over to their side, rather than it being because he had been convinced by the ICS.

As someone who doesn't read over at SB (as far as STvSW forums go, I only really read here and at SDN, though the latter being not so much for the STvSW anymore, since it's largely dead in that regard), I haven't seen much, if anything, regarding Alyeska's opinions about STvSW in a long time, and if he does speak up, I highly doubt it will be over at SDN, since I really don't see him participate much in either the STvSW or the Pure SW forums.


Mon Jan 08, 2007 7:05 am
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I've seen no mention of this on SB.com yet. I even brought it up in the SB IRC channel, but no one seemed all that interested. Most likely because there are no real SW debaters there. But i bet it will be brought up during the next large SW vs. thread though.


Wed Jan 10, 2007 11:18 am
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