Cocytus wrote:Where did that script quote come from? In the film, Admiral Cartwright (is Donald his first name) cuts off the C in C after "but." The captain who uttered the mothballing comment is a woman. And you've left out the key portion of the quote.
Spock: "Last month, at the behest of the Vulcan ambassador I opened a dialogue with Gorkon, chancellor of the Klingon High Council. He proposes to commence negotiations at once."
Cartwright: "Negotiations for what?"
Spock: "The dismantling of our space stations and starbases along the Neutral Zone. And end to almost 70 years of unremitting hostility which the Klingons can no longer afford."
Perhaps the attribution is wrong, however, my point is there; they intended to mouthball the fleet. As in, reduce it from the size that a war-fleet migh have, and down towards a more reasonable number. For example, if five thousand starships are enough to patrol UFP boarders and systems, respond to emergiences, perform diplomatic functions, and exploration, they would reduce the fleet to that size, rather than keep say ten thousand. Because there would be no reason to have ten thousand starships taking up resources. That's absurd.
Space Stations and Starbases. A series of key strategic installations is what is really being discussed here. The Federation's pulling out from the Klingon border, turning it over to the Klingons. The female captain responds with "are we talking about mothballing the Starfleet?" The answer is no. Considering that Cartwright was involved in the plot to assassinate Gorkon, I doubt seriously we can take anything he says as true, rather more racist fearmongering, I should say. "Dismantling the fleet" sounds just like what it is, dismantling the fleet. Not "dismantling the Ninth Fleet," or "dismantling the fleet along the Klingon border."
I never said they would toss out an entire fleet, or it altogether. This is absurd since we see they still have a fleet in TNG. What I said was that they dismantled their fleet from the point of it being a threat to the Klingons, but kept enough to protect themselves to a reasonable extent. That being defense, scientific study, and exploration still being maintained by the remaining ship. Mass production of warships would stop, as well as devoting a great deal of credits to producing better ships and weapons.
Furthermore, the fact that the example I cited came from Voyager does not automatically invalidate it. The Cardassians built that missile. That's canon fact. From a species a century behind everyone else? Unlikely.
What is this behind everyone else? The Federation, Klingons, and the Romulans are the most advanced powers in the Alpha Quadrant area. They are clearly not the weakest, but they are vastly behind in weapons and ship technology, as seen by the fact that most of their weapons are late 23rd UFP equal weapons. That is not to say their firepower is limited to that ( I should have been clearer), as a Miranda clearly cannot overpower a Galor.
You're not comparing "common level" starships here. You're comparing common level Cardassian ships with the newest, most powerful Federation starship classes, the Galaxy, the Nebula, and the Defiant.
Please, that's hardly true. While the Nebula may have started out more advanced and powerful, the delay mass production of later ships allowed more modern designs to be fitted into them, as we can clearly see major leaps and bounds in their design. What's more, the Nebula in The Wounded did not have a weapon's pod, which is the bulk firepower of the Nebula itself. And yet it dominated the Galors easily.
Hardly seems fair does it. Try Galors against a genuinely century old design i.e. the Miranda. Then watch the DS9 battles again.
Please, the Mirandas are HOW old? They were what, heavy cruisers during the time of the Constitution Refit? During the Cardassian-UFP war, I suspect at best they were use as light cruisers, and years later with Dominion upgrades, you think I'd consider they were capable of matching a Galor in even combat? Not likely. The Mirandas were the biggest symbol of cannon fodder on the bloody show.
And its not just the missile. I point you to Tears of the Prophets. Those Cardassian weapons platforms, (which Cardassia developed under its own power as evidenced by Weyoun's disapproval of the late activation "It pains me to say this but you Cardassians are proving to be quite a disappointment,") tear right through many of the largest and most powerful Alliance starships. Damar even rattles off the weapons complements of "1000 plasma torpedoes," to which Weyoun replies "I like them," as if he had no prior knowledge of their design or armament, which seems unlikely if the Dominion had been directly involved in their design. I have no problem with the notion that Federation starships are more powerful than their Cardassian counterparts. But they're hardly a century ahead.
First of all, producing a super-weapon isn't tough. The Empire built the Death Star. The only unrealistic part about it is that the Cardassians had armed it with Quantum Torpedoes, despite the fact they've only ever used plasma torpedoes. But that rant aside, the weapon had to cost a fortune to make, as we see no example of it during the Dominion War.
As for the weapon platforms, that isn't so much a leap of technological ability, but so much a clever use of networking power from a large power plant on a shielded asteroid. Plasma torpedoes themselves have always been a powerful weapon, and with Dominion resources, obtaining powerful plasma torpedoes is child's play. As for suggesting that the Dominion had no hand in it, this is doubtful, surely they were not in charge of this, but they would have had the technology that the Cardassians needed to pull this idea off.
And lastly, your theory about a design delay makes perfect sense. In the presence of sustained conflict, the Federation will turn to a wartime production mode, pulling older vessels out of mothballs and sending everything to the front lines while beginning design of newer ships. But when the war ends and peaceful exploration again becomes the main objective, combat oriented vessels are shelved in favor of constructing scientific starships. The Akira is a combat starship, pure and simple. And if you're looking for precedent, look no further than the Defiant herself. From DS9 "The Search":
Sisko: "The Defiant was the prototype, the first ship in what would have become a new Federation battle fleet."
Dax: "So what happened?"
Sisko: "The Borg threat BECAME LESS URGENT. Also, several design flaws cropped up during the ship's shakedown cruise, so Starfleet abandoned the project."
Of course, although this was after a great deal of delayed peace with no worthy enemies for the UFP to fight against. A few hundred new ships of the Akira, Nebula, and Galaxy class would have surely been enough to devistate the Cardassian fleet in addition to the older UFP ship models.
I forsee that the UFP won't just disarm as quickly, due to the continual threat of the Dominion, and the occasional attack from the Borg Collective. As for the new UFP war fleet, I suspect that given the recent news on the Akira and such, the Defiant, Sovereign, and Prometheus class are going to be the shinning leaders of that fleet, while the rest of the fleet just recieves upgrades to keep up. The Excelsiors are going to become the new Mirandas, and the Nebulas are likely going to be pushed to the working horse class, due to their multi-stage capabilities.
But as for the Cardassians, their technology is significantly older, and their advancement (note, not firepower per say) really is about a century behind in most cases, simply due to the lack of imagination the Cardassian goverment had imposed upon them for so long (great discipline, but no imagination for the most part).
