The reason for the deathstar

[KirkSkyWalker]

Sure, fly so fast that turbolasers can't hit you, and fire a missile perpendicular to your path of flight, down a 60-km long tunnel that's 2 meters wide, without hitting the sides.

But if you quibble enough, it'll be possible... a billion to one, but that's "possible!"

Oh, well, they say it's bliss.... in which case this makes 72 virgins look like eternal hellfire.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Sure, fly so fast that turbolasers can't hit you,

Considering we clearly see turbo laser bolts coming straight down the trench towards the rebel ships im not sure how flying "fast" in a straight line directly towards/into them would make them harder to hit.

and fire a missile perpendicular to your path of flight, down a 60-km long tunnel that's 2 meters wide, without hitting the sides.

Yea they should have used "smart bombs" like the ones we dropped down air shafts in the gulf.

But if you quibble enough, it'll be possible... a billion to one, but that's "possible!"

Hardly a billion to one, in fact given the advanced tech relative to ours id say very doable.

Oh, well, they say it's bliss.... in which case this makes 72 virgins look like eternal hellfire.

72 virgins sounds very tedious, personally if given the choice id go for women who had been around the block a few times cos they may know a nasty and interesting little trick or three i have not done before....:).

[User1442]

72 virgins sounds very tedious, personally if given the choice id go for women who had been around the block a few times cos they may know a nasty and interesting little trick or three i have not done before....:).

Yaaaa......if you want a STD variety pack. You fricken perv.......JOKING JOKING! FOR THE LOVE OF GOD IM JOKING! DON'T BURN ME IN THE ETERNAL FIRES OF FLAME WAR!

[Praeothmin]

Blah, blah, de-fucking BLAH.
Applying your own debating tactics:
"Where are you right? You are saying that you are not right; you will now prove that you are not right, or you are wrong."
Take a course in forensics, anyone can chatter on nonsensically in circles, quoting me non-sequitur and out of context-- that is, when you're not twisting everything 180 degrees and putting words in my mouth that were never there to begin with.
My argument stands, your inability to read English notwithstanding.

These Forensic Sciences?
Forensic science (often shortened to forensics) is the application of a broad spectrum of sciences to answer questions of interest to a legal system.
Forensic science is only as good as the scientist who is conducting the investigation. If the forensic scientist does not pay close attention to his work, it could provide inaccurate results with dire consequences. In a 2002 study presented in the California Law Review, the accuracy of forensic scientists' reports can be skewed by several different factors. These factors include how the evidence was originally presented and how the forensic scientist remembers the information when he composes notes. Because forensic science relies heavily on human interpretation, the environment is contaminated by emotions, human error and unintentional bias. Modern forensic classes educate students on being as objective as possible.
DNA is up for particular debate when it comes to accuracy. The Innocence Project is a non-profit legal organization that helps exonerate individuals wrongly accused of a crime. Out of a group of 84 people exonerated by the Innocence Project, more than half were convicted on inaccurate forensic science.
You see, once again you use a bad analogy to try to support your position, with no arguments or evidence to back it up.
Is Forensics your new catch word, like Entropy was for your failed Warp theory?
Forensics is used when the investigator only has the results of an event to analyze, not when he has the entire picture.
We currently have the briefing for the attack, the actual attack, and the aftermath of the attack.
If the Imperial Forensic specialists were to investigate the explosion of the DS, it would go something like this:

-Investigator 1: After multiple scans of the explosion area, we have detected increased Hypermatter residue, as if the DS exploded due to a Hypermatter reactor short-circuit.
-Investigator 2: Indeed, but the lack of debris also seems to indicate that the explosion was enormous, as if all the fail safes failed at the same time. This could only happen in the case of a chain-reaction in all the power junctions of the DS.
-Inv. 1: Indeed, but what could have caused this? With no debris, we also have no physical “records” to examine. Do we have a witness?
-Inv. 2: Yes, and this is what he had to say: “A young redneck spacer flew in the trench, and used the Force to perfectly time his missile launch so that the guided missiles, impeded though they were from the jamming, were able to penetrate the small exhaust port from the station, and create a chain reaction in the reactor from their initial explosion.”
-Inv. 1: The Force? Isn’t that the old religion that Vader creep believes in? Anyways, what were the possibilities of such a plan working?
-Inv. 2: According to our experts, a good pilot aided by a targeting computer had less than a 20% chance of success…
-Inv. 1: Wow, those Rebel pilots are good, or lucky, or both…

I agree the Force helped elevate the low chances of success to 100% rate, but two, not one, two teams of people carefully analyzed the attack plan and determined there was a chance of success, one of those teams actually working on the DS, so sorry, but your argument that “Luke did it only with the Force” doesn’t prove it was only possible with the Force, it only proves Luke did it with the Force.
And in fact, Luke at first was using his computer to target the port, believing it was possible with it, and only Ben telling him to use the Force made him turn it off…
I agree the Force allowed a 100% success rate, but I will always disagree for the reasons previously mentioned, that you have yet to refute, that this shot was impossible without it, only much more difficult…

And my understanding of english allows me to easily spot the weaknesses in your arguments, or the fact that you use "catch" words in the wrong context without anything to back them up...

[Lucky]

The Death Star was not meant to be practical. It was meant to cause irrational fear. I seem to remember reading a quote where Vader is looking at a map of the GFFA, and thinking how insignificant the Death Star really was.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

The Death Star was not meant to be practical. It was meant to cause irrational fear. I seem to remember reading a quote where Vader is looking at a map of the GFFA, and thinking how insignificant the Death Star really was.

A massive fleet dropping out of hyperspace blockading a planet and killing everybody on it is much more effective as a terror weapon than a big ball that allows you to take off and runaway until it finally fires.

[Lucky]

The Death Star was not meant to be practical. It was meant to cause irrational fear. I seem to remember reading a quote where Vader is looking at a map of the GFFA, and thinking how insignificant the Death Star really was.

A massive fleet dropping out of hyperspace blockading a planet and killing everybody on it is much more effective as a terror weapon than a big ball that allows you to take off and runaway until it finally fires.

Like I said: "The Death Star was not meant to be practical".

It was suppose to be a big unstoppable juggernaut that inspired irrational fear. That was Moff Tarken and the Emperor's intent.

Vader seems to think like you, and I, and felt to Death Star was kind of a waste.

[KirkSkyWalker]

The Death Star was not meant to be practical. It was meant to cause irrational fear. I seem to remember reading a quote where Vader is looking at a map of the GFFA, and thinking how insignificant the Death Star really was.

A massive fleet dropping out of hyperspace blockading a planet and killing everybody on it is much more effective as a terror weapon than a big ball that allows you to take off and runaway until it finally fires.

Sure, just like on Alderaan, vs. Hoth-- NOT.

Didn't you hear what Solo said? Hyperdrive cannot pass through stars.
That meant that they couldn't blast the rebel base immediately, because Yavin was in the way, since the Empire had to attack immediately to keep them from leaving; that means that they had to pop up out of hyperspace in an inopportune spot, which wouldn't offer them a clear shot from the moment that they arrived, but they had to wait until the base-moon orbited around Yavin.
This wouldn't happen otherwise, since the Empire would choose when and where to attack-- and would time it so that the planet was in position.

Also it's presumably quite unusual for a M-class planet to be in orbit around a gas-giant, vs. a singular orbit. ("Presumably," because one never knows what to expect with Star Wars' odd cosmology, what with binary star-systems having desert-planets with oxygen atmospheres etc).

Another problem with a fleet, is mutiny: the more ships you have in an empire that no one wants, the more chance that some of them will be taken over and used against you-- unless you have a weapon that renders them all useless; then, you just have to take very good care of that weapon.

[Praeothmin]

Sure, just like on Alderaan, vs. Hoth-- NOT.

How big was the fleet at Hoth again?
Was it 1000 ships, or 10 000?
No, wait, I think it was 1 SSD and maybe 10-15 ISDs...
Hhhmm, imagine the reaction on Hoth if it had been 1000 ships coming, or even 10 000?

Another problem with a fleet, is mutiny: the more ships you have in an empire that no one wants, the more chance that some of them will be taken over and used against you-- unless you have a weapon that renders them all useless; then, you just have to take very good care of that weapon.

And how many people, of the million working and living on the DS, do you need just to sabotage it?
Mutinees can happen anywhere, and thousands more ships instead of one big space station doesnot increase these chances much, much more, especially if you choose the ship Commanders among your most loyal servants, as is the case in the Empire (as seen in the EU many times)...
Mutineers that do not have the help of some of the Command staff will not do anything, and certainly not if the Empire has many thousand more ships able to pursue the lone mutineer ship, and a fleet Commander that kills in a horrible way, by Force-Chocking you...

[Mike DiCenso]

Force-Chocking you...

So... Vader punishes you by placing wedges or blocks under you to keep you from moving? ;-D

[KirkSkyWalker]

Sure, just like on Alderaan, vs. Hoth-- NOT.

How big was the fleet at Hoth again?
Was it 1000 ships, or 10 000?
No, wait, I think it was 1 SSD and maybe 10-15 ISDs...
Hhhmm, imagine the reaction on Hoth if it had been 1000 ships coming, or even 10 000?

So the planet has more shield-generators, ion-cannons etc., it works out to the same difference. In contrast, the Death Star just pops up and blows away the whole planet.

Another problem with a fleet, is mutiny: the more ships you have in an empire that no one wants, the more chance that some of them will be taken over and used against you-- unless you have a weapon that renders them all useless; then, you just have to take very good care of that weapon.

And how many people, of the million working and living on the DS, do you need just to sabotage it?

More than a million, since it's easier to control their movements compared to stealing an entire star-destroyer. And sabotage simply delays the ship a little, until the sabotaged systems are repaired.

Mutinees can happen anywhere, and thousands more ships instead of one big space station doesnot increase these chances much, much more, especially if you choose the ship Commanders among your most loyal servants, as is the case in the Empire (as seen in the EU many timesMutineers that do not have the help of some of the Command staff will not do anything, and certainly not if the Empire has many thousand more ships able to pursue the lone mutineer ship, and a fleet Commander that kills in a horrible way, by Force-Chocking you...

Yeah, your fantasy here involves 1000 times more ISD's, but at the same time you want them all staffed by the Emperor's pets. Obviously that's going to fall apart faster than a house of cards in a hurricane, when it's an empire that nobody wants.

[KirkSkyWalker]

Force-Chocking you...

So... Vader punishes you by placing wedges or blocks under you to keep you from moving? ;-D

Yep.... in the EU, Vader stop an entire fleet from clear across the galaxy using a "Force parking-brake."

[User1442]

Ok, so lets assume the death star isn't built. Instead they build about.....100 000 ships. They dissolve the imperial senate and people don't like that. So people start revolting. with millions of planets under their control, lets say with the extra star destroyers, they have 500 000 ships. Even assuming that that not all planets are capable of revolting (i.e no ships or industrial capacity) its not exactly enough to police an entire galaxy.

So lets make that number bigger. With the millions of planets they have, lets say they have 6 million ships. Assuming that by millions they mean 4 or 5 million planets, thats still not enough. If the alliance manages to get a few hundred thousand planets then that means that they have to take on those planets PLUS police the rest. And if they glass those planets then their losing a huge chunk of their own territory. One could say "well, they could just zip to the main planets and glass those." But the in war that is hardly ever possible. Berlin wasn't taken till the end of world war II even though its destruction would have been a enormous blow to the nazi's. Why? Because it just doesn't happen in war.

The death star however with its capablities would in theory be able to take on whatever fleets try to stop it, AND destroy those planets. The exhaust port made this rather silly, but without that weakness it would have worked most likely. Look at september 11th. Was it a major blow to the U.S? No, and it didn't even get present a danger of bringing the U.S to its knees. However the fear created was enough to allow the U.S to invade afghanistan AND iraq.

People don't think rationally when their afraid, they think stupidly.

[KirkSkyWalker]

Ok, so lets assume the death star isn't built. Instead they build about.....100 000 ships. They dissolve the imperial senate and people don't like that. So people start revolting. with millions of planets under their control, lets say with the extra star destroyers, they have 500 000 ships. Even assuming that that not all planets are capable of revolting (i.e no ships or industrial capacity) its not exactly enough to police an entire galaxy.

So lets make that number bigger. With the millions of planets they have, lets say they have 6 million ships. Assuming that by millions they mean 4 or 5 million planets, thats still not enough. If the alliance manages to get a few hundred thousand planets then that means that they have to take on those planets PLUS police the rest. And if they glass those planets then their losing a huge chunk of their own territory. One could say "well, they could just zip to the main planets and glass those." But the in war that is hardly ever possible. Berlin wasn't taken till the end of world war II even though its destruction would have been a enormous blow to the nazi's. Why? Because it just doesn't happen in war.

The death star however with its capablities would in theory be able to take on whatever fleets try to stop it, AND destroy those planets. The exhaust port made this rather silly, but without that weakness it would have worked most likely. Look at september 11th. Was it a major blow to the U.S? No, and it didn't even get present a danger of bringing the U.S to its knees. However the fear created was enough to allow the U.S to invade afghanistan AND iraq.

People don't think rationally when their afraid, they think stupidly.

That was Palpatine's plan, i.e. to scare the people into giving up their freedom by electing him as a dictator who would save them; and when Palpatine couldn't kill Padme directly to stop her from thwarting his plan, he killed her in another way which worked even better (almost).

As for the exhaust-port, I stand by the fact that it wasn't a viable target via their technology; so the Empire wasn't "stupid," so much as simply skeptical of the Force. It's like telling a British spy to "kill Hitler through a window from 5 miles away in a drive-by shooting." Technically possible, but feasibly not, unless you have ESP.

As for a million ISD's, however, it's simply going to be difficult to find a million ship-commanders and crews who will commit to destroying planets for an emperire that most people HATE; once they destroyed their first planet, more like half would refuse, and 1/4 would join the rebellion, and the war would be won. Palpatine knew this, and so he built one big ship that he could control. I don't even think even the EU allows a Sith-lord to Force-choke a fleet of ISD's.

[Praeothmin]

So the planet has more shield-generators, ion-cannons etc., it works out to the same difference. In contrast, the Death Star just pops up and blows away the whole planet.

I never said the DS wasn't more powerful, but I verily doubt any planetary shield could resist fire from 10 000 ships all firing in the same vicinity.
Plus, how many planets will the Empire destroy before all the rest revolt before this senseless destruction?
10 000 ships arriving around Alderaan, a peaceful planet, would have unerved anyone.

More than a million, since it's easier to control their movements compared to stealing an entire star-destroyer. And sabotage simply delays the ship a little, until the sabotaged systems are repaired

I believe it was the original ICS that stated 1 million people on the DS.
And all you need to sabotage it thoroughly is to play with the power source, and make it blow up the next time it powers its Hyperdrive of Superlaser, and get out of there just before it happens...
If Bothan spies were able to sabotage the entire defense grid of Caamas, they could do so for the DS...

Yeah, your fantasy here involves 1000 times more ISD's, but at the same time you want them all staffed by the Emperor's pets. Obviously that's going to fall apart faster than a house of cards in a hurricane, when it's an empire that nobody wants.

Nope, I simply want them commanded by loyal Imperial officers.
How many top Commanders do you think would really defect?
Most of the Rebels were commanded by ex-Republic Senators, offcials, or even Admirals from fleets of space cruisers (meaning cruise-ships) like the Mon Cal fleet...
Not many Imperial Commanders, in or out of the EU, actually defected to the Rebels...