Phaser/warp power

For polite and reasoned discussion of Star Wars and/or Star Trek.
User avatar
Mr. Oragahn
Admiral
Posts: 6865
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:58 am
Location: Paradise Mountain

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun Jun 29, 2008 5:49 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:
Jedi Master Spock wrote: In "Small Step," Voyager runs into 30 EJ of subspace energy.

The Graviton ellipse in that episode is described as being 1 kilometer wide, which matches up fairly well with the visual FX of when Voyager closes in point-blank to the phenomena to rescue the Delta Flyer, though it does appear slightly larger at 1.2 km x .7 km on the long axis. Just rough back-of-the-envelope calculations give the ellipse a rough surface area of some 5,277,875.6 square meters. Dividing that into 30 million terajoules gives us some 5.68 TJ per meter^2! Potentially, assume square shaped forward shields of 136 x 63 meters, Voyager has the potential of intercepting up to 48,666 TW of subspace energy! Even if Voyager is only hit by 1/1000th of that over time, the foward shields are still getting some 48.6 TW.
-Mike
What does Voyager do in that episode? Does it move inside that thing?
Or does it just stay there, outside, but close to it?
How long?
How do we know how much energy is radiated from that core?
I'm puzzled as to why JMS says the Voyager runs into 30 millino terajoules. It's a wording highly suspect, considering that even if the ship run into that anomaly, it would not have to deal with all of its energy.
Besides, there's something most curious, there, in rating this phenomenon in joules.
It would suggest, as weird as it seems, that the anomaly looses almost no energy as radiation, thereby making the anomaly more like a bag of energy than a natural core which would be rated in watts, like a sun.

"Say good morning to 30 million terajoules of subspace energy."

Logically, from the description memory alpha, those things get out of subspace from time to time, and are extremely rare.
So we know, at least, that the energy figure is from a fresh scan made on this thing, less from a purely theoretical estimation of the energy that thing can contain.
Now, again, why is that thing not rated in watts, or with a luminosity?
As this thing contains a finite energy, how can we know its power?
Couldn't we guess it by the colour of its surface, for example?

Mike DiCenso
Security Officer
Posts: 5839
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:49 pm

Post by Mike DiCenso » Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:40 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote: My question was relatively simpler: where is the hardware for those arm shields?
Distributed in the exoskeleton's structure, I would imagine. At any rate, it's academic as Seven not only doesn't get to put her arm into the conduit, but the point being, as Kim stated, she's not a Borg drone anymore. She may or may not be able to do that. But it is plausible that she can, given the other episode cited about her remaining implants being activated, and functional.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Besides, regarding the Defiant and phasers, I think it's possible that the Defiant, being a new design, may have been thought with decentralized and maybe redundant systems, to further her ability to fight when certain systems would get critically damaged.
As a whole, UFP ships are reliable, so are their warp core, that they have major systems powered by the warp core.
But on the Defiant, a special design, it could be possible that phasers were originally given their own independant power core. It doesn't mean it could pump out powers for as long as a warp core, but I suppose that it could go through those peaks, which could be rated at a percentage of the local warp core, for short periods, being plausible auxiliary power sources in case of an emergency.
It would also offer a failsafe, as we've seen phasers kick back into ships when facing bizarre conditions, like trying to vape some elements which generate reactions which climb up to the ship, as it happened in that episode with the old lady robot and the E-D digging holes in the crust.
In such a case, if the phaser was to go down, at least it would affect its own power source, but now the warp core.
The advantage, there, would be to be capable of using the phasers (well, pulse phasers if I get it correctly) without putting the warp core at risk.
By the TOS movie time period, the E-1701 was able to fire phasers with even just battery power, though that was only good for "a few shots". So the concept of being able to fire weapons with just the bare minimum power sources is not without merit.

By the time of TNG, however, the power cell technology could have improved enough that the phaser energy can be stored in specific cells, like with the Defiant, but then that would also be as the old phaser bank concept, would it not?
-Mike

Mike DiCenso
Security Officer
Posts: 5839
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:49 pm

Post by Mike DiCenso » Sun Jun 29, 2008 9:04 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:
Jedi Master Spock wrote: In "Small Step," Voyager runs into 30 EJ of subspace energy.

The Graviton ellipse in that episode is described as being 1 kilometer wide, which matches up fairly well with the visual FX of when Voyager closes in point-blank to the phenomena to rescue the Delta Flyer, though it does appear slightly larger at 1.2 km x .7 km on the long axis. Just rough back-of-the-envelope calculations give the ellipse a rough surface area of some 5,277,875.6 square meters. Dividing that into 30 million terajoules gives us some 5.68 TJ per meter^2! Potentially, assume square shaped forward shields of 136 x 63 meters, Voyager has the potential of intercepting up to 48,666 TW of subspace energy! Even if Voyager is only hit by 1/1000th of that over time, the foward shields are still getting some 48.6 TW.
-Mike
Mr. Oragahn wrote: What does Voyager do in that episode? Does it move inside that thing?
Or does it just stay there, outside, but close to it?
How long?
Voyager appears to get within a couple hundred meters at one point to rescue the Delta Flyer, which had gone inside the phenomena. Much of the episode, however, Voyager stays a few kilometers away from the Ellipse while the DF explored inside it.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: How do we know how much energy is radiated from that core?
I'm puzzled as to why JMS says the Voyager runs into 30 millino terajoules. It's a wording highly suspect, considering that even if the ship run into that anomaly, it would not have to deal with all of its energy.
Besides, there's something most curious, there, in rating this phenomenon in joules.
It would suggest, as weird as it seems, that the anomaly looses almost no energy as radiation, thereby making the anomaly more like a bag of energy than a natural core which would be rated in watts, like a sun.
I think you misunderstand the Graviton ellipse. It is a hole into a subspace domain of some sort. Far bigger on the "inside" than on the outside. Clearly, with only one known exception, most of the ships that got sucked into the thing were destroyed such that only tiny chunks of debris remained. The Ares spacecraft, on the other hand, was rare in that it had somehow survived the entry the way a paper airplane might survive a tornado.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:"Say good morning to 30 million terajoules of subspace energy."

Logically, from the description memory alpha, those things get out of subspace from time to time, and are extremely rare.
So we know, at least, that the energy figure is from a fresh scan made on this thing, less from a purely theoretical estimation of the energy that thing can contain.
Now, again, why is that thing not rated in watts, or with a luminosity?
As this thing contains a finite energy, how can we know its power?
Couldn't we guess it by the colour of its surface, for example?
I don't think you understand. The visible glowing 1 km ellipse is simply that manifestation of that subspace domain in our reality. The following dialog gives some idea of thing's power:

JANEWAY: It's two in the morning, Ensign. This better be more than a little turbulence.
KIM: You won't be disappointed. We've got level nine gravimetric distortions closing on our position.
TUVOK: They're emanating from subspace.
JANEWAY: On screen. Shields.
PARIS: It's heading right toward us.
JANEWAY: Evasive manoeuvres.
CHAKOTAY: Captain.
JANEWAY: Say good morning to thirty million terajoules of subspace energy.
PARIS: This thing is following us. I can't outrun it at impulse.
JANEWAY: Go to warp.
PARIS: It's disrupting our warp field.
KIM: If it gets any closer the gravimetric stresses are going to rip the plating off our hull.
SEVEN: Captain, I recognise this phenomenon. It's Borg designation is spatial anomaly five two one. It's attracted to objects that emit electromagnetic energy. We have to cut power and reverse our shield polarity.
JANEWAY: Do it.
PARIS: That was close.
JANEWAY: I recognise this anomaly too. It's called a graviton ellipse. According to the Federation Database it travels through subspace, emerging occasionally without warning. Ellipses have only been observed a handful of times.
CHAKOTAY: Ares Four.
TUVOK: Commander?
CHAKOTAY: One of the early Mars missions. The Command module and its pilot were engulfed by a similar phenomenon back in 2032.
PARIS: I remember reading about that. Two astronauts were stranded on the surface for weeks before a rescue ship arrived.
CHAKOTAY: No one's gotten this close to a graviton ellipse and lived to tell about it. This could be a remarkable opportunity.
JANEWAY: Go to yellow alert. Keep our power output at minimum levels. Match it's course and speed but maintain a safe distance.
PARIS: Aye, Captain.
CHAKOTAY: I suggest we launch a probe. See if we can find out what makes this thing tick.
JANEWAY: Make it fast. There's no telling when our visitor's going to burrow back into subspace.


This thing's energy manifests not only as light (not sure if heat is involved, but probably is given the use of shields to protect the ship against the ellipse), but very intense gravimetric power. Given what we've seen Voyager survive in terms of gravity and kinetic damage, this thing must be very powerful indeed, and it makes the Ares IV's survival all the that much more remarkable.
-Mike

User avatar
Mr. Oragahn
Admiral
Posts: 6865
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:58 am
Location: Paradise Mountain

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun Jun 29, 2008 9:35 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:Voyager appears to get within a couple hundred meters at one point to rescue the Delta Flyer, which had gone inside the phenomena. Much of the episode, however, Voyager stays a few kilometers away from the Ellipse while the DF explored inside it.
So, for radiations, part of the ship really dealt with them for what? a few minutes or so? Cna't we get a more reliable time estimation, and a proper penetration depth?
Besides, they had their shields up by then?
Wouldn't that pull the thing towards them?
I think you misunderstand the Graviton ellipse. It is a hole into a subspace domain of some sort. Far bigger on the "inside" than on the outside. Clearly, with only a few exceptions, most of the ships that got sucked into the thing were destroyed such that only tiny chunks of debris remained. The Ares spacecraft, on the other hand, was rare in that it had somehow survived the entry the way a paper airplane might survive a tornado.
So a shit ton of luck and favorable conditions. The Ares ship is terribly weak by design. It should be terribly inferior in technological terms to most ships stuck in that thing since then. If that thing survived to the gravitational stress, proof is that the g-field of such anomalies can be very random.

Besids, if the inside is bigger, much bigger, then how far is the core of that thing from the transition edge?
This would make a great difference calculating radiations.
I don't think you understand. The visible glowing 1 km ellipse is simply that manifestation of the that subspace domain in our reality. The following dialog gives some idea of thing's power:

JANEWAY: It's two in the morning, Ensign. This better be more than a little turbulence.
KIM: You won't be disappointed. We've got level nine gravimetric distortions closing on our position.
TUVOK: They're emanating from subspace.
JANEWAY: On screen. Shields.
PARIS: It's heading right toward us.
JANEWAY: Evasive manoeuvres.
CHAKOTAY: Captain.
JANEWAY: Say good morning to thirty million terajoules of subspace energy.
PARIS: This thing is following us. I can't outrun it at impulse.
JANEWAY: Go to warp.
PARIS: It's disrupting our warp field.
KIM: If it gets any closer the gravimetric stresses are going to rip the plating off our hull.
SEVEN: Captain, I recognise this phenomenon. It's Borg designation is spatial anomaly five two one. It's attracted to objects that emit electromagnetic energy. We have to cut power and reverse our shield polarity.
JANEWAY: Do it.
PARIS: That was close.
JANEWAY: I recognise this anomaly too. It's called a graviton ellipse. According to the Federation Database it travels through subspace, emerging occasionally without warning. Ellipses have only been observed a handful of times.
CHAKOTAY: Ares Four.
TUVOK: Commander?
CHAKOTAY: One of the early Mars missions. The Command module and its pilot were engulfed by a similar phenomenon back in 2032.
PARIS: I remember reading about that. Two astronauts were stranded on the surface for weeks before a rescue ship arrived.
CHAKOTAY: No one's gotten this close to a graviton ellipse and lived to tell about it. This could be a remarkable opportunity.
JANEWAY: Go to yellow alert. Keep our power output at minimum levels. Match it's course and speed but maintain a safe distance.
PARIS: Aye, Captain.
CHAKOTAY: I suggest we launch a probe. See if we can find out what makes this thing tick.
JANEWAY: Make it fast. There's no telling when our visitor's going to burrow back into subspace.


This thing's energy manifests not only as light (not sure if heat is involved, but probably is given the use of shields to protect the ship against the ellipse), but very intense gravimetric power. Given what we've seen Voyager survive in terms of gravity and kinetic damage, this thing must be very powerful indeed, and it makes the Ares IV's survival all the that much more remarkable.
-Mike
This doesn't adress my point at all. I said they rate that spheroid thing with a figure in energy. The only way to do this is to consider the thing a closed system of some sort with no considerable energy fluctuation or loss. It's like they talked about a bomb.

Yes, its gravitic forces are high, but once you picture the SIF, and the shields, since Voyager could poke her head into that thing partially, if I get it correctly, the effects were largely compensated.

I still don't see how you can calculate anything from that.

Here are pictures (if link doesn't work, copy and paste them into the adress bar manually).

http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_001.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_011.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_030.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_031.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_032.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_035.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_042.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_051.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_053.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_059.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_060.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_061.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_108.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_111.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_119.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_120.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_135.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_145.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_146.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_157.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_167.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_168.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_169.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_176.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_183.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_184.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_221.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_249.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_249.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_281.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_293.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_294.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_299.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_300.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_301.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_302.jpg

From what we can see, plenty of debris are floating there are hardly getting even melted. The satellite-ship, as a whole, was not melted away either despite all those centuries.
More, when it was inside, the dude survived long enough to calmly unfasten his seatbelts and go look through the window.
A Voyager's shuttle went there without much problem, and the Voyager itself seems to have penetrated the thing for a very brief moment.
Overall, the inside is hardly that luminous, so there's not much to obtain from this case, unless you have an idea.

Mike DiCenso
Security Officer
Posts: 5839
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:49 pm

Post by Mike DiCenso » Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:18 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Mike DiCenso wrote:Voyager appears to get within a couple hundred meters at one point to rescue the Delta Flyer, which had gone inside the phenomena. Much of the episode, however, Voyager stays a few kilometers away from the Ellipse while the DF explored inside it.
So, for radiations, part of the ship really dealt with them for what? a few minutes or so? Cna't we get a more reliable time estimation, and a proper penetration depth?
Besides, they had their shields up by then?
Wouldn't that pull the thing towards them?
I think you misunderstand the Graviton ellipse. It is a hole into a subspace domain of some sort. Far bigger on the "inside" than on the outside. Clearly, with only a few exceptions, most of the ships that got sucked into the thing were destroyed such that only tiny chunks of debris remained. The Ares spacecraft, on the other hand, was rare in that it had somehow survived the entry the way a paper airplane might survive a tornado.
So a shit ton of luck and favorable conditions. The Ares ship is terribly weak by design. It should be terribly inferior in technological terms to most ships stuck in that thing since then. If that thing survived to the gravitational stress, proof is that the g-field of such anomalies can be very random.

Besids, if the inside is bigger, much bigger, then how far is the core of that thing from the transition edge?
This would make a great difference calculating radiations.
I don't think you understand. The visible glowing 1 km ellipse is simply that manifestation of the that subspace domain in our reality. The following dialog gives some idea of thing's power:

JANEWAY: It's two in the morning, Ensign. This better be more than a little turbulence.
KIM: You won't be disappointed. We've got level nine gravimetric distortions closing on our position.
TUVOK: They're emanating from subspace.
JANEWAY: On screen. Shields.
PARIS: It's heading right toward us.
JANEWAY: Evasive manoeuvres.
CHAKOTAY: Captain.
JANEWAY: Say good morning to thirty million terajoules of subspace energy.
PARIS: This thing is following us. I can't outrun it at impulse.
JANEWAY: Go to warp.
PARIS: It's disrupting our warp field.
KIM: If it gets any closer the gravimetric stresses are going to rip the plating off our hull.
SEVEN: Captain, I recognise this phenomenon. It's Borg designation is spatial anomaly five two one. It's attracted to objects that emit electromagnetic energy. We have to cut power and reverse our shield polarity.
JANEWAY: Do it.
PARIS: That was close.
JANEWAY: I recognise this anomaly too. It's called a graviton ellipse. According to the Federation Database it travels through subspace, emerging occasionally without warning. Ellipses have only been observed a handful of times.
CHAKOTAY: Ares Four.
TUVOK: Commander?
CHAKOTAY: One of the early Mars missions. The Command module and its pilot were engulfed by a similar phenomenon back in 2032.
PARIS: I remember reading about that. Two astronauts were stranded on the surface for weeks before a rescue ship arrived.
CHAKOTAY: No one's gotten this close to a graviton ellipse and lived to tell about it. This could be a remarkable opportunity.
JANEWAY: Go to yellow alert. Keep our power output at minimum levels. Match it's course and speed but maintain a safe distance.
PARIS: Aye, Captain.
CHAKOTAY: I suggest we launch a probe. See if we can find out what makes this thing tick.
JANEWAY: Make it fast. There's no telling when our visitor's going to burrow back into subspace.


This thing's energy manifests not only as light (not sure if heat is involved, but probably is given the use of shields to protect the ship against the ellipse), but very intense gravimetric power. Given what we've seen Voyager survive in terms of gravity and kinetic damage, this thing must be very powerful indeed, and it makes the Ares IV's survival all the that much more remarkable.
-Mike
This doesn't adress my point at all. I said they rate that spheroid thing with a figure in energy. The only way to do this is to consider the thing a closed system of some sort with no considerable energy fluctuation or loss. It's like they talked about a bomb.

Yes, its gravitic forces are high, but once you picture the SIF, and the shields, since Voyager could poke her head into that thing partially, if I get it correctly, the effects were largely compensated.

I still don't see how you can calculate anything from that.

Here are pictures (if link doesn't work, copy and paste them into the adress bar manually).

http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_001.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_011.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_030.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_031.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_032.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_035.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_042.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_051.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_053.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_059.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_060.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_061.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_108.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_111.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_119.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_120.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_135.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_145.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_146.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_157.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_167.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_168.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_169.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_176.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_183.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_184.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_221.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_249.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_249.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_281.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_293.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_294.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_299.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_300.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_301.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ep_302.jpg

From what we can see, plenty of debris are floating there are hardly getting even melted. The satellite-ship, as a whole, was not melted away either despite all those centuries.
More, when it was inside, the dude survived long enough to calmly unfasten his seatbelts and go look through the window.
A Voyager's shuttle went there without much problem, and the Voyager itself seems to have penetrated the thing for a very brief moment.
Overall, the inside is hardly that luminous, so there's not much to obtain from this case, unless you have an idea.
They did, but in order not to attract the thing, they'd reversed the shields' polarity as part of the methods needed to keep the thing from being attracted to the ship.

Ad for the rest of it. Once you're inside, the thing's subspace domain appears to be a fairly benign enviroment. It's being on the outside and drawn into it that is apparently fatal, and the gravitational sheer forces are apparently what the 30 million TJs of subspace energy are being used to describe in much the same way as modern science uses joules, not wattage to describe kinetic energy.
-Mike

User avatar
Mr. Oragahn
Admiral
Posts: 6865
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:58 am
Location: Paradise Mountain

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Mon Jun 30, 2008 7:08 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote: Ad for the rest of it. Once you're inside, the thing's subspace domain appears to be a fairly benign enviroment. It's being on the outside and drawn into it that is apparently fatal, and the gravitational sheer forces are apparently what the 30 million TJs of subspace energy are being used to describe in much the same way as modern science uses joules, not wattage to describe kinetic energy.
-Mike
Obviously not, since a most primitive ship with noticeably no defenses at all survived, with a man inside.

We're still stuck with the fact that we have absolutely no idea what this energy figure quantifies exactly.

It could be the pocket as a whole, but considering that it's very random in its destructive abilities and fairly benign, as you say, it could be spread over that whole huge volume.

Now, since I noticed you picked the script as evidence that the asian guy said millions and not billions, it seems that the script for the episode where Data provides his 12.75 thingowatt figure ended with "per second".

Mike DiCenso
Security Officer
Posts: 5839
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:49 pm

Post by Mike DiCenso » Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:16 am

Mike DiCenso wrote: Ad for the rest of it. Once you're inside, the thing's subspace domain appears to be a fairly benign enviroment. It's being on the outside and drawn into it that is apparently fatal, and the gravitational sheer forces are apparently what the 30 million TJs of subspace energy are being used to describe in much the same way as modern science uses joules, not wattage to describe kinetic energy.
-Mike
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Obviously not, since a most primitive ship with noticeably no defenses at all survived, with a man inside.
No, the Ares IV's "survival" was a fluke as many other ships (and possibly natural objects as well) were clearly shredded to bits smaller than a square meter in side.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: We're still stuck with the fact that we have absolutely no idea what this energy figure quantifies exactly.
Subspace energy as Janeway stated.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:It could be the pocket as a whole, but considering that it's very random in its destructive abilities and fairly benign, as you say, it could be spread over that whole huge volume.
Not "very random" in it's destructive abilities as the poor Ares IV and it's one lone occupant were an extreme outlier example of a surviving ship and crew when encountering the Graviton ellipse.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Now, since I noticed you picked the script as evidence that the asian guy said millions and not billions, it seems that the script for the episode where Data provides his 12.75 thingowatt figure ended with "per second".
Your powers of observation are weak, old man. I chose a transcript of what was actually spoken, not a script of what they were supposed to speak.
-Mike

Roondar
Jedi Knight
Posts: 462
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:03 pm

Post by Roondar » Tue Jul 01, 2008 9:30 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote: Now, since I noticed you picked the script as evidence that the asian guy said millions and not billions, it seems that the script for the episode where Data provides his 12.75 thingowatt figure ended with "per second".
Bah.

I had expected you to be above that sort of 'debating'.

We all know the script is not canon.

User avatar
l33telboi
Starship Captain
Posts: 910
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:15 am
Location: Finland

Post by l33telboi » Tue Jul 01, 2008 1:45 pm

Roondar wrote:Bah.

I had expected you to be above that sort of 'debating'.

We all know the script is not canon.
He is right though. If Mike uses the script to try to prove one of his points, then it's more then fair that the script can be used against him as well. Anything else would be a double standard.

Mike DiCenso
Security Officer
Posts: 5839
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:49 pm

Post by Mike DiCenso » Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:57 pm

Transcript, l33telboi, not shooting script. At least try to properly understand what it is you are trying to accuse me of, before you make said accusation.
-Mike

User avatar
l33telboi
Starship Captain
Posts: 910
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:15 am
Location: Finland

Post by l33telboi » Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:39 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:Transcript, l33telboi, not shooting script. At least try to properly understand what it is you are trying to accuse me of, before you make said accusation.
-Mike
Really?
Mike DiCenso wrote:Again, I have heard the line for actual, and he says "millions". The scripts and transcripts all give "millions".
I guess you must've typed that part wrong. Or then perhaps you didn't really mean what you typed?

Mike DiCenso
Security Officer
Posts: 5839
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:49 pm

Post by Mike DiCenso » Tue Jul 01, 2008 4:05 pm

Nope, just showing how all three sources agree with one another. You are just sadly degerating into SDN like tactics of misrepresenting other people's statements. Your only counter is to use a link to a thread where people are giving subjective listenings. You also are forgetting my reasons for using the transcripts in the first place.

So let us review this for your benefit:


1.) The scripts intended for Kim to say "millions". A non-canon source, but it at least gives us what was intended.

2.) Disagreement on whether the actor, Garett Wang, actually said "billions" or "millions". This is highly subjective and what people hear is going to depend largely on their bias, where they live, and what language they speak, ect. As JMS points out, it sounds like "millions" spoken with a hard "M", and making it seem like "B" is being pronounced. Therefore this is unreliable.

3.) All known transcripts of the dialog say "millions".


A reminder here:
I wrote wrote:I am going to do is default to the millions statement since it allows for a more reasonably fair and conservative estimate of the plasma power in the one conduit.
I still hold that position in the light of the continuing controversy. But I will amend it to note that some people are hearing "billions" as opposed to "millions".
-Mike

User avatar
l33telboi
Starship Captain
Posts: 910
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:15 am
Location: Finland

Post by l33telboi » Tue Jul 01, 2008 4:58 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:Nope, just showing how all three sources agree with one another.
Which equals you using the script as evidence. It's that simple. Ergo it’s perfectly valid for Oraghan to us the script to support his notions. Anything else would be a double standard.

The rest of your reply is pretty much one giant red herring with some insults in it, but I’m feeling generous so I’ll just pretend I didn’t notice that:
You are just sadly degerating into SDN like tactics of misrepresenting other people's statements.
I don't much care for your obsession with SDN or your childlike snipes trying to pass me off as someone like them. To put it politely – it’s a rather illogical claim. What? You've failed to notice that when I debate I mostly debate franchises other then ST? You've failed to notice that I haven't even watched a whole lot of trek? So how, in your mind, you’ve somehow pegged me for a ST fanboy is beyond me.

Heck, even the densest people on SDN have noticed that I'm not a trekkie.
Your only counter is to use a link to a thread where people are giving subjective listenings. You also are forgetting my reasons for using the transcripts in the first place.
And what's your evidence? Using a fan transcript based on what one person heard? As opposed to my link which had 11 people partaking (quite a few people more on the IRC channel before that question was posed on the forum). Plus a non-canon script which you at times seem to regard as evidence and at times seem to reject as evidence.

Oh, and need I remind you that you actually never did quote the script which you were supposed to be in possession of.

I have no doubt that you'll keep seeing yourself as having some form of moral high-ground on this topic. But as it stands, the majority is on my side. Trying to dismiss everything other people say because it's “subjective” is ludicrous. I mean, what, you have something that's not subjective that stands behind your side of the argument?
1.) The scripts intended for Kim to say "millions". A non-canon source, but it at least gives us what was intended.
If you want, I could post an excerpt from the tech bible for my fanfic which says billions. I mean they are of equal canonical worth, so why not?
2.) Disagreement on whether the actor, Garett Wang, actually said "billions" or "millions". This is highly subjective and what people hear is going to depend largely on their bias, where they live, and what language they speak, ect.
Which is the only defense you have against 10 people saying it's billion opposed to your opinion. What? You don't recognize your own opinion as subjective? It's somehow worth more then the opinions of others? And to try to claim that SB of all places would be biased in trying to up the figures for Trek is probably one of the silliest claims out there. Heck, you yourself badmouth the place often enough because of the exact opposite.
3.) All known transcripts of the dialog say "millions".
And the canonical status of this is...? That's right - zip. Indeed transcripts are nothing more then people that have nothing to do with the franchise trying to hear what is said. In other words - the exact same thing that was done in the SB thread.
I still hold that position in the light of the continuing controversy. But I will amend it to note that some people are hearing "billions" as opposed to "millions".
"Some"? Try substituting it for "the majority".

Roondar
Jedi Knight
Posts: 462
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:03 pm

Post by Roondar » Tue Jul 01, 2008 6:01 pm

l33telboi wrote:
Roondar wrote:Bah.

I had expected you to be above that sort of 'debating'.

We all know the script is not canon.
He is right though. If Mike uses the script to try to prove one of his points, then it's more then fair that the script can be used against him as well. Anything else would be a double standard.
Two wrongs do not make a right.

Or in other words: the script won't magically become canon just because some of it fits in people's arguments.

Regardless of the million/billion discussion, Data very clearly did not say 'per second'.

Assuming he did because a non-canon source said so is no better than arguing based on fanfiction.

Mike DiCenso
Security Officer
Posts: 5839
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:49 pm

Post by Mike DiCenso » Tue Jul 01, 2008 6:24 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:Nope, just showing how all three sources agree with one another.
l33telboi wrote: Which equals you using the script as evidence. It's that simple. Ergo it’s perfectly valid for Oraghan to us the script to support his notions. Anything else would be a double standard.
Only used for purposes of knowing intent, which, for some odd reason, you fail to grasp, either intentionally or otherwise. It is you that is twisting things around to try and justify Oraghan's flimsy attempt to solely use the shooting script as his power estimate basis. All known transcripts of "True Q", for example, have the word "second" is cut off, and very nearly everyone agrees, regardless that "second" cut off by the klaxon. So you're both attempting to compare an apples and oranges situation where one situation is clearly defined by both transcripts as well as people listening to one where some people (currently a majority in one thread) hear one thing and others hear another, and the transcripts all agree with one (currently minority) side, but not the other.
l33telboi wrote:The rest of your reply is pretty much one giant red herring with some insults in it, but I’m feeling generous so I’ll just pretend I didn’t notice that:
You are just sadly degerating into SDN like tactics of misrepresenting other people's statements.
I don't much care for your obsession with SDN or your childlike snipes trying to pass me off as someone like them. To put it politely – it’s a rather illogical claim. What? You've failed to notice that when I debate I mostly debate franchises other then ST? You've failed to notice that I haven't even watched a whole lot of trek? So how, in your mind, you’ve somehow pegged me for a ST fanboy is beyond me.
Nor do I care for yours. I compare what you are doing to that group because like them, you are clinging like a drowning man to that one bit of flotsom solely for the purpose of winning the discussion because you apparently have an excessive emotional attachment to your interpretation of the sound of the first letter in a word spoken by a character.
l33telboi wrote:Heck, even the densest people on SDN have noticed that I'm not a trekkie.
Speaking of "red herrings" I don't care, either that you are or you aren't a Warsie or Trekkie. All I see is you acting like a classic SDNer and twisting what I say around because you are so emotionally locked up with this.
Your only counter is to use a link to a thread where people are giving subjective listenings. You also are forgetting my reasons for using the transcripts in the first place.
And what's your evidence? Using a fan transcript based on what one person heard? As opposed to my link which had 11 people partaking (quite a few people more on the IRC channel before that question was posed on the forum). Plus a non-canon script which you at times seem to regard as evidence and at times seem to reject as evidence.
I used several such transcripts as reference. All of them are in agreement with what was said. I will remind you:

1.) DVD subtitle transcript

2.) Graham Kennedy's transcript

3.) The Chakotaya.net transcript

These are three, seperate sources. Like it or not, the first one listed is an offical Paramount source, which was not reported first by me, but by another poster here as you well know.
l33telboi wrote:Oh, and need I remind you that you actually never did quote the script which you were supposed to be in possession of.

I have no doubt that you'll keep seeing yourself as having some form of moral high-ground on this topic. But as it stands, the majority is on my side. Trying to dismiss everything other people say because it's “subjective” is ludicrous. I mean, what, you have something that's not subjective that stands behind your side of the argument?
You have some people who agreed with you on SB.com. But there are. people here who disagree with you. There is enough contention here that just simply listening is not enough.

As for the script, unlike your one friend Striker1346's grandfather, I don't own a copy. So please stop with the lies and twisting. I merely stated I had seen it, and it had said "millions". By the way, what did Stiker find in the script his grandfather has?
1.) The scripts intended for Kim to say "millions". A non-canon source, but it at least gives us what was intended.
l33telboi wrote:If you want, I could post an excerpt from the tech bible for my fanfic which says billions. I mean they are of equal canonical worth, so why not?
How does your fanfic show the original episode writers' intent? It does not, and red herring noted.
2.) Disagreement on whether the actor, Garett Wang, actually said "billions" or "millions". This is highly subjective and what people hear is going to depend largely on their bias, where they live, and what language they speak, ect.
l33telboi wrote:Which is the only defense you have against 10 people saying it's billion opposed to your opinion. What? You don't recognize your own opinion as subjective? It's somehow worth more then the opinions of others? And to try to claim that SB of all places would be biased in trying to up the figures for Trek is probably one of the silliest claims out there. Heck, you yourself badmouth the place often enough because of the exact opposite.
No, but not just myself, but JMS and Graham Kennedy all think it's millions. There are also the few other people at SB.com that also think it was millions, too. Again, highly subjective interpretation. The offical DVD subtlitle transcript says "millions", too.

l33telboi wrote: And the canonical status of this is...? That's right - zip. Indeed transcripts are nothing more then people that have nothing to do with the franchise trying to hear what is said. In other words - the exact same thing that was done in the SB thread.
The DVD subtitle transcript is not offical franchise material? Oh wait, I'll bet Paramount subtitle people are liars, too.
I still hold that position in the light of the continuing controversy. But I will amend it to note that some people are hearing "billions" as opposed to "millions".
l33telboi wrote:"Some"? Try substituting it for "the majority".
A majority in a single thread that only amounted to 10 people in the actual poll, and 9 in the thread (one of whom listened to the clip several times before deciding on "billion").. One person decided "millions" in the poll, one person could not access the sound clip, while two other people didn't apparently take things seriously to give real answers in the actual thread, and at least one person in the thread thinks it's "millions".

As an idea, maybe you should hold a poll here. The more people who partcipate in a study the more likely the results will be accurate. Here at SFJ, there is a more even split among the clear cut agree/disagree people, and people who aren't sure.
-Mike

Post Reply