In defense on TDiC

[Mr. Oragahn]

As I suspected, trilithium doesn't magically work as a natural explosive for star.

Just looked it up. Apparently trilithium is able to stop nuclear reactions and a small amount of it can cause a star to quantum implosion and causing a massive sub-space shockwave. It was also mentioned that the Dominion use some sort of other material called tekasite as well as protomatter.

But the point is that trilithium won't magically allow you to kill and blow stars up, you need to have a given kind of trilithium and associate a very specific technology to it.
Other than Soran and some Dominon people using a different recipe, there's no evidence of anyone else having that capacity.

[Mith]

As I suspected, trilithium doesn't magically work as a natural explosive for star.

Just looked it up. Apparently trilithium is able to stop nuclear reactions and a small amount of it can cause a star to quantum implosion and causing a massive sub-space shockwave. It was also mentioned that the Dominion use some sort of other material called tekasite as well as protomatter.

But the point is that trilithium won't magically allow you to kill and blow stars up, you need to have a given kind of trilithium and associate a very specific technology to it.
Other than Soran and some Dominon people using a different recipe, there's no evidence of anyone else having that capacity.

Except for the fact that said recipe was mentioned on the god damn show:

DAX
Its shields are holding.

KIRA
How can that be?

DAX
It looks like someone's been doing
some modifications to the Yukon.
(alarmed)
I'm also picking up large amounts
of trilithium, tekasite, and proto-
matter on board.
KIRA
(realizing)
A bomb. If it explodes inside the
sun...

DAX
It could trigger a supernova.
Wipe out the entire fleet... the
station...

KIRA
And Bajor...
(coming to a decision)
We have to use the tractor beams

It seems that Dax knows what the weapon does. So starfleet does know how to make those weapons.

[Mike DiCenso]

It would seem that both Kira as well as Jadzia Dax both know what that combination of substances will do to a star. Just look at the sequence of the dialog. Jadzia reads off the sensor reading's listing of the trilithium, tekasite, and protomatter on board the runabout, then Kira puts it together almost immediately that it's a bomb and is about to say that what it will do to the Bajoran sun, but Jadzia speaks up to finish the thought about the specific's of the bomb's ability to cause a supernova.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

Point. So the difficulty is being allowed to work beyond treaties, get the proper bomb tech, get trilithium and above all the good version, the tekasite and protomatter, in sufficient and correct proportions.

[Mith]

It would seem that both Kira as well as Jadzia Dax both know what that combination of substances will do to a star. Just look at the sequence of the dialog. Jadzia reads off the sensor reading's listing of the trilithium, tekasite, and protomatter on board the runabout, then Kira puts it together almost immediately that it's a bomb and is about to say that what it will do to the Bajoran sun, but Jadzia speaks up to finish the thought about the specific's of the bomb's ability to cause a supernova.
-Mike

I wouldn't go that far. Kira might have gotten the idea that bomb + sun = Oh Shit!, but I don't think she actually got the technology behind the idea.

[Mith]

Point. So the difficulty is being allowed to work beyond treaties, get the proper bomb tech, get trilithium and above all the good version, the tekasite and protomatter, in sufficient and correct proportions.

There aren't any known treaties that forbid the use of sun-busters. I'm guessing they aren't really used because of it causing a big war.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Point. So the difficulty is being allowed to work beyond treaties, get the proper bomb tech, get trilithium and above all the good version, the tekasite and protomatter, in sufficient and correct proportions.

There aren't any known treaties that forbid the use of sun-busters. I'm guessing they aren't really used because of it causing a big war.

For one, the escalation of destruction is possibly a reason such devices would be prohibited. I mean, otherwise, we could imagine they'd just bust suns and use some substances which break subspace and prevent warp travel.

It's also another case of super tech of the week, right? Didn't the Borg try to purely and merely destroy Earth? I wouldn't put the Borg above the use of protomatter or any unstable production of one omega particle to destroy a system in no time, instead of wasting time sending ships.
I know you lot would go at lengths to explain this, but truth is that with no wish to make captures or assimilation, they really lost a big time fucking around. Yet the Borg have a nearby nebula full of protomatter.

Plot devices hurt me brain.

[Mith]

Point. So the difficulty is being allowed to work beyond treaties, get the proper bomb tech, get trilithium and above all the good version, the tekasite and protomatter, in sufficient and correct proportions.

There aren't any known treaties that forbid the use of sun-busters. I'm guessing they aren't really used because of it causing a big war.

For one, the escalation of destruction is possibly a reason such devices would be prohibited. I mean, otherwise, we could imagine they'd just bust suns and use some substances which break subspace and prevent warp travel.

It's also another case of super tech of the week, right? Didn't the Borg try to purely and merely destroy Earth? I wouldn't put the Borg above the use of protomatter or any unstable production of one omega particle to destroy a system in no time, instead of wasting time sending ships.
I know you lot would go at lengths to explain this, but truth is that with no wish to make captures or assimilation, they really lost a big time fucking around. Yet the Borg have a nearby nebula full of protomatter.

Plot devices hurt me brain.

Um, it isn't a plot device of the week when it's featured in a movie as part of the danger and later as a weapon used by an ongoing enemy of the Federation.

[Mr. Oragahn]

There aren't any known treaties that forbid the use of sun-busters. I'm guessing they aren't really used because of it causing a big war.

For one, the escalation of destruction is possibly a reason such devices would be prohibited. I mean, otherwise, we could imagine they'd just bust suns and use some substances which break subspace and prevent warp travel.

It's also another case of super tech of the week, right? Didn't the Borg try to purely and merely destroy Earth? I wouldn't put the Borg above the use of protomatter or any unstable production of one omega particle to destroy a system in no time, instead of wasting time sending ships.
I know you lot would go at lengths to explain this, but truth is that with no wish to make captures or assimilation, they really lost a big time fucking around. Yet the Borg have a nearby nebula full of protomatter.

Plot devices hurt me brain.

Um, it isn't a plot device of the week when it's featured in a movie as part of the danger and later as a weapon used by an ongoing enemy of the Federation.

When it's not used by enemies who would much likely have access to it, but don't use it despite making no secrets about their intent to destroy Earth, yes it is, but that's a problem that strikes many shows. Trek just seems to collect those cases.

[Mith]

For one, the escalation of destruction is possibly a reason such devices would be prohibited. I mean, otherwise, we could imagine they'd just bust suns and use some substances which break subspace and prevent warp travel.

It's also another case of super tech of the week, right? Didn't the Borg try to purely and merely destroy Earth? I wouldn't put the Borg above the use of protomatter or any unstable production of one omega particle to destroy a system in no time, instead of wasting time sending ships.
I know you lot would go at lengths to explain this, but truth is that with no wish to make captures or assimilation, they really lost a big time fucking around. Yet the Borg have a nearby nebula full of protomatter.

Plot devices hurt me brain.

Um, it isn't a plot device of the week when it's featured in a movie as part of the danger and later as a weapon used by an ongoing enemy of the Federation.

When it's not used by enemies who would much likely have access to it, but don't use it despite making no secrets about their intent to destroy Earth, yes it is, but that's a problem that strikes many shows. Trek just seems to collect those cases.

Why would the Klingons, Romulans, or the Federation use that weapon? It would kill millions in the best case and cause a war.

[Mike DiCenso]

It would seem that both Kira as well as Jadzia Dax both know what that combination of substances will do to a star. Just look at the sequence of the dialog. Jadzia reads off the sensor reading's listing of the trilithium, tekasite, and protomatter on board the runabout, then Kira puts it together almost immediately that it's a bomb and is about to say that what it will do to the Bajoran sun, but Jadzia speaks up to finish the thought about the specific's of the bomb's ability to cause a supernova.
-Mike

I wouldn't go that far. Kira might have gotten the idea that bomb + sun = Oh Shit!, but I don't think she actually got the technology behind the idea.

She could have intuitively grasped that those compounds were bomb components, but then again, how many people would put together from a vague listing of components like plutonium, tritium gas, and lithium-6 deuteride are necessary for not only a bomb, but specifically a megaton range thermonuclear weapon?
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

It's also another case of super tech of the week, right? Didn't the Borg try to purely and merely destroy Earth? I wouldn't put the Borg above the use of protomatter or any unstable production of one omega particle to destroy a system in no time, instead of wasting time sending ships.
I know you lot would go at lengths to explain this, but truth is that with no wish to make captures or assimilation, they really lost a big time fucking around. Yet the Borg have a nearby nebula full of protomatter.

Well, regardless, you still need a vessel of some kind to deliver the weapon to the target, whether that craft requires a crew is another matter. But a group like the Borg, that is only out for the assimilation of other species and their technology to add to their own perfection is precisely why the Borg do not go around just simply glassing planets or blowing them to pieces, even though it is clearly within their means to do so. You can't add something that you just obliterated.

With regards to Earth, the Borg have twice, each made with a single large cube ship, attempted to assimilate the Earth and Federation... and nearly succeeded, but for the valiant efforts of Our Heroes exploiting some tiny weakness. In the case of ST:FC, for example, it was only Picard's knowledge as the former Borg drone Locutus that helped in pinpointing a critical weakness.

The only plot device being why the Borg simply don't send a modest fleet of even 10 or so cubes to overwhelm Starfleet and finish the job once and for all.
-Mike

[Who is like God arbour]

For the Borg, it is simply a question of priority.

Mankind has a certain worth, which sanctify only a certain amount of expenses.

It's clearly not top priority for the Borg, to assimilate mankind.

One could even assume, that it has only a very low priority.

If there is a cube left over and - by chance - in the vicinity of Earth without another task, that would bring more profit than the assimilation of Earth, the cube is send to Earth.

But mankind is it not worth to send a whole fleet from Borg Core Space to Earth or to neglect other, more profitable tasks.

But if the assimilation of a species is regarded as top priority, they are able and willing to expend more.

• • • • "My people managed to elude the Borg for centuries! Outwitting them, always one step ahead! But in recent years, the Borg began to weaken our defenses. They were closing in, and Species 8472 was our last hope to defeat them. You took that away from us! The outer colonies were the first to fall; 23 in a matter of hours. Our sentry vessels tossed aside, no defense against the storm. And by the time they had surrounded our star system... hundreds of cubes... we had already surrendered to our own terror."
        
        • Arturis, recounting the assimilation of his species and homeworld by the Borg to Captain Janeway

[Mr. Oragahn]

Pretending that Earth, the head of a major force like the UFP in a whole quadrant, the only group from known species to have defeated the Borg twice, would be a low priority is just a huge stretch.
As to whether they went to assimilate Earth instead of downright destroying it or most of it, that's left open to argumentation. They surely do a shitty job at it, when it comes to efficiency. Instead of spamming a target with missiles containing legions of nanites which would spread on their own and some stuff like that, they looked very concerned about bombarding Earth by any means possible in First Contact, even if it means firing the last megajoules of energy left in whatever reactor they had in that sphere.
But that's just my opinion, you'll surely argue, I don't think it's going to get anywhere, and I don't think we should continue any longer on this derailing, since after all, even I can accept the idea that the Borg would not be the ones immediately using WMDs.

Still, what do you think about protomatter being injected in those torps and fired with those beams?
It would fit with the projected level of destruction, since once matter is hit, it's altered and you can do nothing to stop it. Matter doesn't even need to disappear, eventually, it just needs to be altered, so you won't see super explosions or sudden gravitional mass change, since changing the ecosphere/geology of the planet would screw it up. You could say the matter would be unstable, decaying and emitting deadly radiations as an effect of protomatter, and once the mantle would be totally infected, that planet may even blow up, or at least crack itself and spew lava everywhere.
It also has some funky surface waves, which remind of the genesis device. At least there's a pattern, somehow.
Let's just say they used a different recipe than the genesis one, not even a perfect one, but one that would do the job, with different effects here and there.

[Who is like God arbour]

You are right: I would argue your estimation of the importance of the UFP in the eyes of the Borg. But, as you also have asserted, you would have and keep another opinion regardless what I would say and a debate wouldn't lead to anything.

Concerning the protomatter, I think, it is a possibility. We don't know, what was done to achieve the stated goal: to strip the planet of its mantle. But we can assume that, if it wouldn't be possible with "conventional" weapons, that they would have taken weapons with which the goal is achievable. One possibility could be the usage of protomatter from which we know, that it has a huge destruction potential. But it is and remains speculation. It is also possible, that they have modified their torpedoes completely different. Or maybe, they don't have altered their torpedoes at all and they are strong enough to strip the mantle of the planet without an alteration of their weapons systems.