The reason for the deathstar

[KirkSkyWalker]

At the time of ANH, the Force was all but forgotten, as Han's and the Imperial officer's comment indicated:

Exactly: they were CYNICS, while the rebels kept the faith. That's so far out of context it's in another galaxy.

That doesn't mean that this one was do-able. The fact remains that it FAILED as planned. You may dwell forever on blaming human error, but the point is that it only wworked using the Force-- meanwhile your claim claim that it "could have" worked, is a negative hypothesis you can never prove.

This means exactly that it was possible, if somewhat difficult, as stated twice in the movie:
Wedge didn't believe it was possible, but the Rebel Generals did, so while it was tough, it was doable.

What, were they GOD? No, it means that they thought it was possible, while Wedge was an actual pilot, one of the best.

Also, this:

Commander #1: We've analyzed their attack, sir, and there is a danger. Should I have your ship standing by?
Governor Tarkin: Evacuate? In our moment of triumph? I think you overestimate their chances.

That “Commander #1” was General Bast, who was the leader of the Imperial army; meanwhile Motti was the head of Naval operations, and likewise Tarkin was first Grand Moff and the commanding officer of the Death Star, who had oveseen its construction for at least 20 years.
Neither Motti nor Tarkin knew or cared about the the Force; Motti was an atheist, while Tarkin believed that Vader was all that was left of the Jedi.

Likewise, obviously Bast didn't know that the rebels were targeting the exhaust-port, or it would have been a simple matter for the Empire to guard a 2-meter target (or just stick a STAINER somewhere along the 60-km tunnel to the core), rather than chasing down the ships willy-nilly. Bast, like Motti, was simply an army general who believed that if the rebels had the plans, they might have discovered a weakness in the DS, and that there was a risk of the rebels exploiting it—which they believed from the get-go; that's why the Empire was LOOKING for the stolen plans so ruthlessly and desperately in the first place, if you care to remember the briefing in the beginning of the fracking MOVIE.
Meanwhile Motti didn’t think there was any risk—and he was right; if you recall, Vader only disagreed with him, because the Force was more powerful than any ship—and that even one that could destroy a planet, was nothing compared to the power of the Force:

Tagge: And what of the Rebellion? If the Rebels have obtained a complete technical readout of this station, it is possible, however unlikely, that they might find a weakness and exploit it.
Vader: The plans you refer to will soon be back in our hands.
Motti: Any attack made by the Rebels against this station would be a useless gesture, no matter what technical data they've obtained. This station is now the ultimate power in the universe! I suggest we use it.
Vader: Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet, or even a whole system, is insignificant next to the power of the Force.

So Tagge, another army-general, believed from the start that there was a weakness, but Motti didn’t—and as things went, events proved he was right, except for Vader’s argument that the Force was more powerful.
Your arguments, meanwhile, prove nothing except that certain people held certain opinions—which were not shared by Tarkin or Motti.
Meanwhile Tagge, like Bast, was also an army general—not a naval officer like Tarkin and Motti.
So you’re taking the word of two army generals, over the Empire’s 2 top naval commanders, concerning the weakness of a ship to a naval attack.
That’s a losing argument—as well as incredibly sloppy, with your referring to officers generically, and then saying “the Empire believed X” etc—as well as quoting hearsay as gospel.

[KirkSkyWalker]

I've re-watched the scene last night, and nowhere did I see the "utter miss" you keep mentioning.
We see Red 5 fire, the torpedoes going towards the port, Red leader coming up saying "it didn't go in, it impacted on the surface!".
The Torpedoes could well have impacted right at the lip of that 2 meter port, making a very, very close miss.
Where do you see the impacts and where is it mentioned they missed by more then 2 meters?

When you miss a 2-meter port by 2 meters, that's a 200% overshoot-- not exactly a promising margin-for-error to stake your life on, when the computer said it was accurate. Han was right-- it was suicide without the Force.

And I never said Luke didn't use the Force to achieve success, I simply stated that it does not mean the act was impossible.

Argumentum ad ignorantiam, i.e. "P has never been disproven therefore P is/(must be) true."

As Mike said, and you just also realized, it would have been far more efficient if the ships had flown in a direct line.

Except that turbolasers fire in a direct line.

By going through the trench, they added difficulty to an already tough mission.

Getting shot by a turbolaser makes it even more difficult.

Again, Rebel Command and Imperial officers alike thought it was possible, so I fail to see why I should not believe them, in light of their actions.

Easy: by the light of their results, i.e. 100% failure.

The fact the Rebels didn't even try to evacuate means a lot.
Not ready to evacuate?
All you need to do to evacuate 20 important people is to push them on a ship, take off in the ship and go somewhere else.

Sure, that's just what they did on Hoth--NOT.
And as you so keenly observed, the rebel-commanders did believe that they had a chance, so they were busy carrying it out.

Yes, the day was saved by a whiny kid with the Force, in the end, because it was easier and yielded the best possible chances of success. Yes, the Force is better then targetting computers in certain instances.

He didn't overshoot the target by 200%, for starters. He got "nothing but net."

But NO, the mission was not impossible without the Force, just very very difficult...

I don't know where you studied statistics, but a 200% overshoot = mathematically impossible.

[Praeothmin]

Exactly: they were CYNICS, while the rebels kept the faith. That's so far out of context it's in another galaxy.

Whether he was cynic or not, it still doesn't prove that "May the Force be with you" isn't the same in the SW universe as us saying "Good Lcuk" or "Godspeed"...

And also you will now prove that the Rebels knew about the Force, and planned their attack around it knowing full well Luke could do it, and you will explain why they had other people make the run first then...

What, were they GOD? No, it means that they thought it was possible, while Wedge was an actual pilot, one of the best.

What, Wedge is the only one who knows anything about flying?
Why was he the only one who said anything then?
And as far as the first movie is concerned, he was no better then many others, only surviving because the hit he suffered took him out of the game...
And what you are essentially saying is:
All the Rebel commanders were idiots, and they had no clue about anything they said.
So you will now prove that of all the people included in the planning, no one had ever piloted a ship, and thus only Wedge knew anything about flying...

That “Commander #1” was General Bast, who was the leader of the Imperial army; meanwhile Motti was the head of Naval operations, and likewise Tarkin was first Grand Moff and the commanding officer of the Death Star, who had oveseen its construction for at least 20 years.
Neither Motti nor Tarkin knew or cared about the the Force; Motti was an atheist, while Tarkin believed that Vader was all that was left of the Jedi.

And that proves what exactly?
Hitler was Chancellor of Germany, its leader, yet he was a poor strategist.
The Fact that Tarkin held the position he had did not, in any way, prove he was a competent commander.
The very fact that he refused even the possibility of danger shows how arrogant he was, and how much he ignored even the council of his closest advisors....

Likewise, obviously Bast didn't know that the rebels were targeting the exhaust-port, or it would have been a simple matter for the Empire to guard a 2-meter target

Oh really, then praytell, what did he mean when he said "We've analyzed their attack"?
Did he mean "We've quickly looked at what they were doing but while we have no clue at their real target, we think there might be a small, really remote possibility of success in the off chance one of them might be strong with the Force"?

And while one is an Admiral in the navy and the other an Army commander, what proof do you have that the navy Admiral had more understanding of the DS then Bast?
Bast had the attack analyzed, not Tarkin or Motti.

And all your arguments fail to explain the lack evacuation on the part of the Rebels in the 30 minutes they had, that fact that the people who actually felt it was possible actually analyzed the attack and the ones who didn't had not...

So you're using bad nalogies and ignore all the facts that indicate otherwise, while basing your theory on the end result, and not all available facts...

[Praeothmin]

When you miss a 2-meter port by 2 meters, that's a 200% overshoot-- not exactly a promising margin-for-error to stake your life on, when the computer said it was accurate. Han was right-- it was suicide without the Force.

As Mike said, and you just also realized, it would have been far more efficient if the ships had flown in a direct line.

Except that turbolasers fire in a direct line.

But NO, the mission was not impossible without the Force, just very very difficult...

I don't know where you studied statistics, but a 200% overshoot = mathematically impossible.

Where is it stated the miss was two meters?
Where?
If the Torpedoes had impacted at the lip of the 2 meter hole, then that's not a 2 meter miss...
And while Turbolasers do shoot in straight lines, the gunners weren't that good at aiming that straigth line towards fighters, they more only able to hit them in crossfire shots.
And flying down a Trench instead of coming overhead limits your maneuverability a lot more then if you were flying in open space with a lot of evading room...

Sure, that's just what they did on Hoth--NOT.
And as you so keenly observed, the rebel-commanders did believe that they had a chance, so they were busy carrying it out.

Oh, the Rebels on Hoth did not evacuate?
They didn't leave important medical equipment behind because they didn't have time to do so?

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

And while Turbolasers do shoot in straight lines, the gunners weren't that good at aiming that straigth line towards fighters, they more only able to hit them in crossfire shots.
And flying down a Trench instead of coming overhead limits your maneuverability a lot more then if you were flying in open space with a lot of evading room...

YUP.

The X-wings had to fly directly towards the DS as well as directly towards the trench to enter it, so i would say that flying into the far end then flying down it and trying to hit the exhaust at a nasty angle was kinda retarded when they could have just as easily flown towards the end with the hole and fired a torp directly down it without needing to overcome a difficult angle while moving at a relatively high speed.

[Who is like God arbour]

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Where is the thermal exhaust port on the Death Star?

[KirkSkyWalker]

Exactly: they were CYNICS, while the rebels kept the faith. That's so far out of context it's in another galaxy.

Whether he was cynic or not, it still doesn't prove that "May the Force be with you" isn't the same in the SW universe as us saying "Good Lcuk" or "Godspeed"...

And also you will now prove that the Rebels knew about the Force, and planned their attack around it knowing full well Luke could do it, and you will explain why they had other people make the run first then...

What, were they GOD? No, it means that they thought it was possible, while Wedge was an actual pilot, one of the best.

What, Wedge is the only one who knows anything about flying?
Why was he the only one who said anything then?
And as far as the first movie is concerned, he was no better then many others, only surviving because the hit he suffered took him out of the game...
And what you are essentially saying is:
All the Rebel commanders were idiots, and they had no clue about anything they said.
So you will now prove that of all the people included in the planning, no one had ever piloted a ship, and thus only Wedge knew anything about flying...

That “Commander #1” was General Bast, who was the leader of the Imperial army; meanwhile Motti was the head of Naval operations, and likewise Tarkin was first Grand Moff and the commanding officer of the Death Star, who had oveseen its construction for at least 20 years.
Neither Motti nor Tarkin knew or cared about the the Force; Motti was an atheist, while Tarkin believed that Vader was all that was left of the Jedi.

And that proves what exactly?
Hitler was Chancellor of Germany, its leader, yet he was a poor strategist.
The Fact that Tarkin held the position he had did not, in any way, prove he was a competent commander.
The very fact that he refused even the possibility of danger shows how arrogant he was, and how much he ignored even the council of his closest advisors....

Likewise, obviously Bast didn't know that the rebels were targeting the exhaust-port, or it would have been a simple matter for the Empire to guard a 2-meter target

Oh really, then praytell, what did he mean when he said "We've analyzed their attack"?
Did he mean "We've quickly looked at what they were doing but while we have no clue at their real target, we think there might be a small, really remote possibility of success in the off chance one of them might be strong with the Force"?

And while one is an Admiral in the navy and the other an Army commander, what proof do you have that the navy Admiral had more understanding of the DS then Bast?
Bast had the attack analyzed, not Tarkin or Motti.

And all your arguments fail to explain the lack evacuation on the part of the Rebels in the 30 minutes they had, that fact that the people who actually felt it was possible actually analyzed the attack and the ones who didn't had not...

So you're using bad nalogies and ignore all the facts that indicate otherwise, while basing your theory on the end result, and not all available facts...

Blah, blah, de-fucking BLAH.
Applying your own debating tactics:
"Where are you right? You are saying that you are not right; you will now prove that you are not right, or you are wrong."
Take a course in forensics, anyone can chatter on nonsensically in circles, quoting me non-sequitur and out of context-- that is, when you're not twisting everything 180 degrees and putting words in my mouth that were never there to begin with.
My argument stands, your inability to read English notwithstanding.

[KirkSkyWalker]

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Where is the thermal exhaust port on the Death Star?

In the Equatorial trench. some people here seem to think that it's harder for a turbolaser to hit something that's moving directly along its line of fire at long-range, than perpendicular to it at near point-blank.
No wonder they think the way they do: their perceptions are backwards.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

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Where is the thermal exhaust port on the Death Star?

In the Equatorial trench. some people here seem to think that it's harder for a turbolaser to hit something that's moving directly along its line of fire at long-range, than perpendicular to it at near point-blank.
No wonder they think the way they do: their perceptions are backwards.

1. The exhaust was not in the equatorial trench it was in a smaller trench, near the northern pole i believe.

2. The turbolasers at the far end of the trench would have a target that was flying almost directly towards them and barely able to manouver due to the walls and floor of the trench limiting movement.

[KirkSkyWalker]

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Where is the thermal exhaust port on the Death Star?

In the Equatorial trench. some people here seem to think that it's harder for a turbolaser to hit something that's moving directly along its line of fire at long-range, than perpendicular to it at near point-blank.
No wonder they think the way they do: their perceptions are backwards.

1. The exhaust was not in the equatorial trench it was in a smaller trench, near the northern pole i believe.

That would make it rather difficult to hit from the equatorial trench.

2. The turbolasers at the far end of the trench would have a target that was flying almost directly towards them and barely able to manouver due to the walls and floor of the trench limiting movement.

Yes, but there was the small problem of the sides of the trench being in the way of the turbolaser-bolts; they were designed to fire away from the Death Star, not towards it (obviously).

[Mike DiCenso]

The main and secondary thermal exaust port where in a trench that ran north to south, not equatorially. That much is obvious in the briefing scematics seen at 6:15 to 10:33, and seems to hold up when you look at the other two Death Star diagrams in AoTC and RoTJ which show to big shafts running from the main reactor to the poles. Which makes sense since we see the Death Star I under construction in RoTS, and there is little outer structure, only the reactor and and core. There there is this from the ANH novelization's version of the pilot briefing:

"Take special note of these emplacements. There's a heavy concentration of firepower on the latitudinal axes, was well as several dense circumpolar clusters."

The several dense circumpolar emplacements would be a concern to pilots making a run at the station's north or south pole. On both Death Stars, the big equitorial trench seemed to be primarily devoted to docking facilities, and it is obvious that it is far larger in width and depth than the one the Rebels make their bombing runs through.
-Mike

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

That would make it rather difficult to hit from the equatorial trench.

Its a good job they were not in the equatorial trench when they were tryng to hit it then and in the small trench it was actually located in the northern pole area.

Yes, but there was the small problem of the sides of the trench being in the way of the turbolaser-bolts; they were designed to fire away from the Death Star, not towards it (obviously).

We see turbo laser bolts coming str8 down the trench towards the x-wings.

5 min 50 secs onwards.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBYCQEcY ... re=related

[Mike DiCenso]

Yes, but there was the small problem of the sides of the trench being in the way of the turbolaser-bolts; they were designed to fire away from the Death Star, not towards it (obviously).

The problem with that is that the trench TL gun turrets seen here at 5:52 and again at 7:48 do not have anyway of seriously adjusting their elevation to point outward 90 degrees upwards away from the trench and the battlestation's surface, their mechanism only rotate around, and the gun barrels can angle upwards maybe about 60 degrees or so. So they can either cover the trench, and fire towards the limb of the battlestation, but not outwards significantly away from it.
-Mike

[KirkSkyWalker]

As the rebel-commander explained, the DS wasn't designed to defend against small ships attacking along its surface, but against a frontal-assault, otherwise they'd have a tighter defense.
However if the smaller ships came in at a straing line, then they'd be viable targets just like big ships at long-range; therefore they had to fly tangent to the DS surface and spiral in, maneuvering at high speed in order to avoid the turbolasers.

Coming in straight would be target-practice for the Empire, and suicide for the rebels.

[Mr. Oragahn]

I've re-watched the scene last night, and nowhere did I see the "utter miss" you keep mentioning.
We see Red 5 fire, the torpedoes going towards the port, Red leader coming up saying "it didn't go in, it impacted on the surface!".
The Torpedoes could well have impacted right at the lip of that 2 meter port, making a very, very close miss.
Where do you see the impacts and where is it mentioned they missed by more then 2 meters?

As said earlier, when Luke fired his pair... his pair of torpedoes, right when they enter the shaft, you see a blast a couple meters on the left. It's hard to tell if it would be just one impact or two merged into one. I find the second option unlikely, so there's a torp that's literally missing there, possibly even more off axis.

And I never said Luke didn't use the Force to achieve success, I simply stated that it does not mean the act was impossible.

That I know, but I think the odds were so off that even Dodonna knew the truth.
And what were they to do anyway?
Sit on their hands? :)

As Mike said, and you just also realized, it would have been far more efficient if the ships had flown in a direct line.
By going through the trench, they added difficulty to an already tough mission.
Again, Rebel Command and Imperial officers alike thought it was possible, so I fail to see why I should not believe them, in light of their actions.

The Imperials couldn't know for sure what kind of weapons would be used. They couldn't even know, back then, if the Rebels would keep doing the trench run or take some altitude, spin and secure a more direct path into the hole.

Not ready to evacuate?
All you need to do to evacuate 20 important people is to push them on a ship, take off in the ship and go somewhere else.
30 minutes is more then enough time to do that, yet they never even tried.
"Oh yeah guys? It's impossible to do, but just to maintain appearances because if we tried to escape now we'd have to leave our porn behind and we find that unacceptable, we will not try to evacuate the base even though we know the plan is impossible without Force powers. Would anyone here have them, perchance?"
I am the only one to realize how dumb this is?

It's possible that some Miss Tatooine posters were pinned too hard to the walls.
In retrospect, you're probably right, 30 minutes should be more than enough to move people out, but it's possible that they'd have to leave important hardware behind.

Other solution: they did it because they thought they'd never a chance to do it again, as the flaw may be discovered. Especially if there's like a spy among their ranks who could report what the Rebels have found.

Yes, the day was saved by a whiny kid with the Force, in the end, because it was easier and yielded the best possible chances of success.
Yes, the Force is better then targetting computers in certain instances.
But NO, the mission was not impossible without the Force, just very very difficult...

Agreed. But with one more "very".