The 1.5 megaton myth

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Yes, totally arbitrary.

Yep. Logic is empirical, and the truth or untruth of an argument should not be dependent on whether or not it arbitrarily is posted on SFJ or on SDN. By this "logic", everything that Mike Wong posts on his site is pure truth, because it's his site, and it matters not what any other board says or believes.

Whatever. This is reason.

Wait, you aren't actually saying that an appeal to popularity is not a logical fallacy, are you?

Really, this is completely insane.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Sorry for DP.

Except, unlike buildings, the planetary atmopshere has well defined, different boundaries that a lot of people don't know about, or think about, that are all part of the "atmosphere"...

So now your argument rests on the basis that Obi Wan has no idea what he is talking about, even though the different layers of the atmosphere are learned in middle school, and Obi Wan was clearly using instruments to derive this. You are implying that the otherwise intelligent and experienced Jedi was completely bullshitting when he made the comment.

And there is still the issue of the black smoke flak bursts, which you claim have "oxygen in them", except do you realize how much oxygen there would need to be in these flak bursts to create the kind of clouds?

Feel free to do the math.

To make a fireball.

But hey, ok, I'll take Obi-Wan's statement at face value, because he says so, and so TDiC becomes fully valid, because the characters said that 30% of the crust was destroyed in the initial volley, which blows the ICS numbers up in... smoke... :)

What a ridiculous round of mental gymnastics you've just played. There is definite evidence based on visual observation that the TDiC dialogue is bullshit. Here, you've only vaguely pointed to the vast amounts of oxygen needed to create black smoke, and I have the strangest of feelings that you yourself don't know.

I might also point out the obvious; that the battleground was black, even though when they fall into the real atmosphere, it is clearly day on that side of the planet. And the only area in which everything could conceivably be that black would be the ionosphere; and the air density is so thin and dispersed, you might as well be in outer space when it comes to explosions.

[Praeothmin]

SO I keep TiDC then...
Got it! :)

[Mr. Oragahn]

Yes, totally arbitrary.

Yep. Logic is empirical, and the truth or untruth of an argument should not be dependent on whether or not it arbitrarily is posted on SFJ or on SDN. By this "logic", everything that Mike Wong posts on his site is pure truth, because it's his site, and it matters not what any other board says or believes.

You cannot dispose of the basic principles of argumentation without any consideration for the multiple elements of evidence that may have not been completely delivered to the opposition just for the sake of it, and even before that there are some core ideas to follow which you do your best to blatantly ignore. As you're lying, you're therefore both stuck at a level where you can't combine real facts and the defense of your arguments from what was posted before, regardless of the ideas presented here or elsewhere. If you could get that, you'd already be out, leaving this place.

Whatever. This is reason.

Wait, you aren't actually saying that an appeal to popularity is not a logical fallacy, are you?

Really, this is completely insane.

No, although you seem to like that kind of reasoning. But in general it isn't so straightforward. You may not see this but there's a complete reversal past a certain level of logic that is really fringe to that esoteric mass of nonsense. That's why you keep getting banned here, because you don't care about those very standards which are very simple to grasp for anyone. It's the same that went on with Saxton and Wong.

[Praeothmin]

After much thinking, SWST, I decide to concede the point they were indeed in the Ionosphere, where there is still oxygen, though rarified, and that the Flak bursts are also full of oxygen (for what stupid reason, I'll wait on SWST's explanation), which causes the black smoke...

[StarWarsStarTrek]

You cannot dispose of the basic principles of argumentation without any consideration for the multiple elements of evidence that may have not been completely delivered to the opposition just for the sake of it, and even before that there are some core ideas to follow which you do your best to blatantly ignore. As you're lying, you're therefore both stuck at a level where you can't combine real facts and the defense of your arguments from what was posted before, regardless of the ideas presented here or elsewhere. If you could get that, you'd already be out, leaving this place.

I don’t do my best to “blatantly ignore” anything.

To prove it, post any more arguments you feel that I “do my best to blatantly ignore” here. I will respond to them immediately (figuratively, of course). If I don’t, I will have no excuse left, will I?

After much thinking, SWST, I decide to concede the point they were indeed in the Ionosphere, where there is still oxygen, though rarified, and that the Flak bursts are also full of oxygen (for what stupid reason, I'll wait on SWST's explanation), which causes the black smoke...

Thank you. I honestly wasn't expecting this from you. But I would point out to you that they probably were not even in the ionosphere; all evidence indicates that they were in space.


-------------------


Now. Does anybody actually want to make a case in relation to the main topic, substantiating how the turbolasers mentioned in the quote could possibly have been heavy turbolasers, when they were described as tracking erratically moving starfighters?

Mr. O, I really did fall for your bullshit that the quad laser cannons fired at the Queen's yacht were comparable in size to HTLs. A further analysis of the scene led to the observation that the bolts were only a fraction of the size of R2D2, and barely larger than the bolts fired by a tie fighter.

[Mr. Oragahn]

You cannot dispose of the basic principles of argumentation without any consideration for the multiple elements of evidence that may have not been completely delivered to the opposition just for the sake of it, and even before that there are some core ideas to follow which you do your best to blatantly ignore. As you're lying, you're therefore both stuck at a level where you can't combine real facts and the defense of your arguments from what was posted before, regardless of the ideas presented here or elsewhere. If you could get that, you'd already be out, leaving this place.

I don’t do my best to “blatantly ignore” anything.

To prove it, post any more arguments you feel that I “do my best to blatantly ignore” here. I will respond to them immediately (figuratively, of course). If I don’t, I will have no excuse left, will I?

No, you don't, clearly. Where did you provide the evidence to support the logic which was first presented when you started on this point? None of us looked at the possibility that you were incorrect in good faith and the replies were formulated in accordance to proper debating rules before being violated by your repetitive mistakes that you were making before we even realized that this was going too far and then your posts weren't even original and doubles from other threads you lied in, but you ignored all warnings as well!

Now. Does anybody actually want to make a case in relation to the main topic, substantiating how the turbolasers mentioned in the quote could possibly have been heavy turbolasers, when they were described as tracking erratically moving starfighters?

Citation needed.

Mr. O, I really did fall for your bullshit that the quad laser cannons fired at the Queen's yacht were comparable in size to HTLs. A further analysis of the scene led to the observation that the bolts were only a fraction of the size of R2D2, and barely larger than the bolts fired by a tie fighter.

Let's rererererererererererererererereretry simple pictures here...



Cannons firing, as big if not bigger than the Nubian ship. HTLs on star destroyers aren't bigger than those pieces... oh but wait, I already covered that part aaaages ago.

[Praeothmin]

Thank you. I honestly wasn't expecting this from you. But I would point out to you that they probably were not even in the ionosphere; all evidence indicates that they were in space.

Well, you annoy me, and I let that cloud my judgement, which I shouldn't have...
And I agree, the Ionosphere doesn't cut it either, they were most likely in space...
(Which makes the barely visible bolts fired by HTLs no way visible to the naked eye on the planet below, which makes the novel entry at least on this subject, invalid)

So what are these black clouds?
I guess they aren't black clouds (I don't buy the "full of oxygen" explanation, I feel it doesn't make any sense)?
We know that flying in battles is done mostly by visual means, at least for starfighters (yes, they do use sensors, but most fights show us the pilots actually look at their targets, just as in modern fighter engagements)...
These Flak bursts seemed to be aimed at them, so the actuall black clouds could simply be dark particules conatined in the flak shells, in order to create black clouds which block vision...
They may even hamper sensors a bit, at least thermal ones, and so on...
So they would be used in order to make fighter runs against targets more diificult...

[sonofccn]

Well, you annoy me, and I let that cloud my judgement, which I shouldn't have...

Well we've all been there...;)

[Picard]

Now. Does anybody actually want to make a case in relation to the main topic, substantiating how the turbolasers mentioned in the quote could possibly have been heavy turbolasers, when they were described as tracking erratically moving starfighters?

Like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beehive_%2 ... ircraft.29

EDIT: Actually, bolt size in Oragahn's picture seems to me to be more in line with medium turbolasers. Of course, there is question as to why exactly would narrator describe them?

[Praeothmin]

In other words, Flak bursts fired in the vicinity of the fighters, when unable to fire directly AT the fighters...

[Picard]

Correct. And it actually seems in line with usage of flak bursts by capital ships in both original and prequel trilogy.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Well, you annoy me, and I let that cloud my judgement, which I shouldn't have...

Well we've all been there...;)

Yeah. Sort of like how you've conveniently dropped our entire debate. I guess that trying to reconcile "the Empire went bankrupt from the Death Star!" and "the Death Star is only a drop in the bucket for the imperial budget" proved too much for you to handle.

It's interesting that you cite a video in order to prove that galaxy class starships can continuously fire eight torpedos per volley...that actually proves the exact opposite! You point out sections where eight torpedos are fired in rapid succession, but then ignore the fact that these outbursts were followed by periods of not firing anything at all, and then only firing a few torpedos every several seconds. Or the fact that all of your engagements were within single digit kilometers, sometimes meters, in attack range.

In fact, even if we use your own statistics, I've demonstrated that a galaxy class starship would lose to an ISD, and we both agree that the Empire has the numbers game in the bag.

I also gaffawed at your insistence that the White House only believes that 9.99 million people have been affected by Obamacare, because they use the word "milions" instead of "tens of millions" or "hundreds of millions". You aren't a mathematician, are you?

[Picard]

Of course, you do understand that torpedo launcher takes some time to reload. And you, as ususal, ignore all the examples of higher Star Trek ranges.

Of course, Star Trek combat seems to be something between modern fighter combat and WW2 torpedo boat combat, so low ranges are matter of course - part jamming, part possibility of ships simply avoiding torpedoes at long range, or torpedoes missing, and possibly part of it is requirement for visual identification, since we know that ships can mask their warp and other signatures in order to pretend to be someone / soething else.

Besides, regarding Death Star, where is it said it was a "drop in the bucket"? What I see from the Empire is massive military spending harming economy, something akin to modern-day United States - where some people insist that 91,6 billion USD F22 programme is a "drop in the bucket", and that US can produce hundreds or thousands of F22s in short order despite them costing 250 million USD just to build, and despite US already being on permanent war footing, while economy is falling apart since, while military spending does offer a short-term boost for economy, it does not provide a long-term return value.

[sonofccn]

Yeah. Sort of like how you've conveniently dropped our entire debate. I guess that trying to reconcile "the Empire went bankrupt from the Death Star!" and "the Death Star is only a drop in the bucket for the imperial budget" proved too much for you to handle.

Actually no since I never argued "The Empire went bankrupt from the Death Star" in any thread in our latest round of debate. I simply grew tired of the antics like the above.

It's interesting that you cite a video in order to prove that galaxy class starships can continuously fire eight torpedos per volley...that actually proves the exact opposite! You point out sections where eight torpedos are fired in rapid succession, but then ignore the fact that these outbursts were followed by periods of not firing anything at all, and then only firing a few torpedos every several seconds.

You do realize those scenes were not continious but were from various episodes correct? I think they even repeat. So a scene of the Galaxy class not firing no more disproves the all out salvo than film of a man walking counters a previous clip of his running.

In fact, even if we use your own statistics, I've demonstrated that a galaxy class starship would lose to an ISD

You may believe what you want. I have no further urge to argue with the likes of you.

Or the fact that all of your engagements were within single digit kilometers, sometimes meters, in attack range.

What of it? We weren't arguing range at that point nor was I assuming the E-D would just hold back and snipe. Considering Imperial accuracy the Enterprise holding constant at 10 thousand kilometers would have all the time in the world to bring down the ISD.

I also gaffawed at your insistence that the White House only believes that 9.99 million people have been affected by Obamacare, because they use the word "milions" instead of "tens of millions" or "hundreds of millions".

Roughly ten million would all that you could logically infer from "millions" in the absence of other evidence. Now I highly doubt whomever typed up that website actually had a number in mind, likely just a bit of fluff that sounds good but assuming it was actually based on a concrete figure if they had helped "tens of millions" or "hundreds of millions" they would say so.