A challenge to Trekkies

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Nowhereman10
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Re: A challenge to Trekkies

Post by Nowhereman10 » Fri Dec 10, 2010 4:49 pm

StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Han Solo claimed that they could fly THROUGH novas, which would also imply a speed fast enough to cross such a large distance within a reasonable distance of time. Obviously this is hyperbole, which proves the falsity of trying to use hyperboles as evidence.


Only, as you have done here, take some of those quotes out of their proper context. Han finishes that up in both the movie as the as the novelization with "that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?". His tone indicates a certain finality to it. That is they don't simply get to dust themselves off and keep going... they die, if they do run into such things. TCW confirms this by having the Malevolence take a 10 parsec detour around the Kaliida Nebula in "Shadows of Malevolence".

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Re: A challenge to Trekkies

Post by Picard » Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:41 pm

Praeothmin wrote:Picard, the EU is also part of SW, only lower Canon.
The DS II being 160km is from the movie scalings, or Higher Canon...
As far as I know, Lucas treats EU as separate universe.

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Re: A challenge to Trekkies

Post by Praeothmin » Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:45 pm

Picard wrote:
Praeothmin wrote:Picard, the EU is also part of SW, only lower Canon.
The DS II being 160km is from the movie scalings, or Higher Canon...
As far as I know, Lucas treats EU as separate universe.
Which is still called SW, and in shich George fishes for names and places sometimes, and where he tries not to make too much problems...

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Re: A challenge to Trekkies

Post by Picard » Fri Dec 10, 2010 7:20 pm

http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Star_ ... tar_Charts

Star Trek : Star Charts, Star Trek : [put name here] Technical Manual, and dozen other Star Trek EU works also carry Star Trek title, and yet are not canon.

As for "fishing for names", it does not make entire EU canon if 2 names appeared in canon. And Lucas apparently does not care about creating problems to EU, from what I have seen so far.

Now, there is separate thread for canon, we should move it there.

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Re: A challenge to Trekkies

Post by Praeothmin » Fri Dec 10, 2010 7:43 pm

Picard, how many times must it be repeated?
There exists a canon policy at LFL which states that the movies are the highest canon, because of GL's involvement, the TCW is T-Canon because of GL's involvement, and the rest is C-Canon, but it's all SW...

Read the Canon thread again, where it is all explained in details... :)

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Re: A challenge to Trekkies

Post by StarWarsStarTrek » Sat Dec 11, 2010 1:11 am

Picard wrote:
And why it fired turbolaser bolts, then?
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_10H8_Gaw0N0/T ... nports.jpg
In other words, either turbolasers regularly use shells, or they don't use shells at all. Plus, these guns are unable to elevate barell, or shoot left/right. So medium TL are only thing which remains.
If you were to watch ROTS, you'd realize that the flak cannons were firing SHELLs, and that you see SHELLS exploding and shrapnel flying out. Your assertion that it's a proper representation of turbolaser firepower because of a vague picture that does not show where that bolt came from is absurd. The ROTS: ICS confirms it, G canon confirms it and multiple other sources do too.


Good luck with destroying MBT by using 9 milimeter handgun.
And where did you get the idea that the two sides were using 9 millimeter handguns, or anything analogous to that?


Laser canons which barely fragmented several-meters-wide asteroids. Sub-kiloton, either way.
Laser cannons that were rapid fire and each shot had a weapon yield on par with modern day heavy missiles. That's actually very impressive firepower coming from a starfighter based weapon designed to take out other starfighters.

The fact that Obi Wan's starfighter was able to take said bolt; which could shatter meter wide asteroids; with little more than a small hole is an impressive durability feat too.


EU is canon only according to EU and lincensing folks. Not according to Lucas.
Leland Chase, appointed by Lucasarts to handle Star Wars canon, says otherwise. C canon is official as long as it's not violated by a higher canon source.



1. C canon = N canon
2. It does.
3. RotS novelization states that fusion powers everything, including large starships. And fusing heavy metals is just not economical.

1. Are you serious? Leland Chase specifically made a distinction between C canon and N canon, and SEPARATED them, yet you come and claim them to be equal? According to who? You?
2. Ah, what a justification. "It does".
3. Except that ROTS novelization does not state that Star Wars ships use fusion. You have yet to provide any evidence for this.





Except for RotS novelization description, which gives us 1.5 megaton heavy turbolasers.
No, it does not give a 1.5 megaton figure. If anything, it implies a gigaton level yield. Why? Because even KOTOR era Taris cities are the size of continents. Scaling from a city to small town based on scaling from modern day cities to small towns make a Star Wars small town larger than New York City, enough to take gigatons to vaporize, especially given that Star Wars skyscrapers dwarf mountains. Darkstar however, instead decided to take an example of Mos Eisley, a small town in Tatooine, and used that as his evidence despite the fact that the quote was in the context of Corsucant. In case you haven't noticed, Tatooine is a pretty backwater planet, and to try to use a small town from Tatooine for calculations that are not in the context of Tatooine is very dishonest.


They won't last more than few seconds either way.
"they won't last more than a few seconds either way" - which you have not proven or provided any evidence of. Instead, you make absurd claims that Star Trek photon torpedos have yields in the hundreds of megatons when visual evidence shows them to be kiloton level. You then try to dismiss the ICS with out of context quotes and calculations.



Beacouse, what? You are too lazy to click on link? Do you know how long these posts are going to be if I start posting parts of my blog and website I'm working on?


http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Ess ... nutes.html

See how easy that was?

Are you so damn confused by yourself? I never used Wookiepedia.
Sorry, but your allies did. Either way, Wookieepedia is actually pretty reliable; you'd be hard pressed to find a single contradiction. If Wookieepedia cites a source, it's typically correct.



Oh, but they did counter these very effectively. If you watched battle of Geonosis, SPHAT's did not take losses but only ever engaged unarmed core ships,
Said core ships of which contained perhaps millions or even billions of battle droids.
LAATs could be effectively countered by droid fighters,
But they weren't.
as for Star Destroyers- CIS already had Nemoidian battleships back at that battle, and later we see some Star Destroyer desgns of their own during RotS,
Except that TF battleships were not prepared to face an assault fleet of star destroyers. Said battleships iirc were actually reconfigured transport ships.
and several AT-Tes were taken out by droid version of Katjusa.
The CIS gave the GAR a somewhat good fight, but it was over in a matter of hours. BTW, said hailfire droids were easily destroyed by LAATs, and the CIS mysteriously seemed to lack AA guns, further showing that the GAR was far more prepared for a full scale war.

Yes, I did. And given that movies do not show how large SW galaxy is, aside from AotC library scene that can scale galaxy from dozen to few thousands light years wide, it is moot.
Except that Star Wars: The essential Atlas states that the Star Wars galaxy is 120,000 LYs across. You're probably going to complain about this being "non canon" despite the fact that Lucasart's official stance is that it IS canon, aka C canon.



Discovered, which does not mean there are no smaller galaxies.

A 200 light year long galaxy with as many normal sized stars as the Star Wars galaxy has would collapse upon itself.



Only in EU. But in canon, DSI was 120 km in diameter, and DSII was 160 km in diameter.
And you have evidence to support this, right?



Lucas says it isn't. And what feats? In canon, we have heavy TL bolts capable of 1.5 megaton shots.
[/quote]

We see Star Wars heavy turbolaser bolts capable of gigaton or even teraton level shots. We see Star Trek photon torpedos having yields in the kiloton range.

You've also mysteriously left out the part of the argument about hyperdrive speed, although to be fair you might have simply not have had enough time to finish it.
Last edited by StarWarsStarTrek on Sat Dec 11, 2010 1:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A challenge to Trekkies

Post by StarWarsStarTrek » Sat Dec 11, 2010 1:12 am

Nowhereman10 wrote:
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Han Solo claimed that they could fly THROUGH novas, which would also imply a speed fast enough to cross such a large distance within a reasonable distance of time. Obviously this is hyperbole, which proves the falsity of trying to use hyperboles as evidence.


Only, as you have done here, take some of those quotes out of their proper context. Han finishes that up in both the movie as the as the novelization with "that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?". His tone indicates a certain finality to it. That is they don't simply get to dust themselves off and keep going... they die, if they do run into such things. TCW confirms this by having the Malevolence take a 10 parsec detour around the Kaliida Nebula in "Shadows of Malevolence".
??? The flying through novas quote from from Legacy of the Force: Invincible.

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Re: A challenge to Trekkies

Post by Trinoya » Sat Dec 11, 2010 4:44 am

We see Star Wars heavy turbolaser bolts capable of gigaton or even teraton level shots.

Wait, when ever do we see this? As far as I'm aware the only 'gigaton' claimed weapon from any true cannon source, save for things like the death star, was the guns of the acclamator (the ones that don't exist in the movies or show).

So please.. show me this so called gigaton effect.

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Re: A challenge to Trekkies

Post by Nowhereman10 » Sat Dec 11, 2010 5:59 am

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:
Nowhereman10 wrote:
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Han Solo claimed that they could fly THROUGH novas, which would also imply a speed fast enough to cross such a large distance within a reasonable distance of time. Obviously this is hyperbole, which proves the falsity of trying to use hyperboles as evidence.


Only, as you have done here, take some of those quotes out of their proper context. Han finishes that up in both the movie as the as the novelization with "that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?". His tone indicates a certain finality to it. That is they don't simply get to dust themselves off and keep going... they die, if they do run into such things. TCW confirms this by having the Malevolence take a 10 parsec detour around the Kaliida Nebula in "Shadows of Malevolence".
??? The flying through novas quote from from Legacy of the Force: Invincible.
Some quotes, context and page numbers are in order here. Besides which, I would think the higher canon overrules the EU here with the aforemented finality of death indicated in ANH and the Malevolence unable to go through the Kaliida Nebula in the TCW.

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Re: A challenge to Trekkies

Post by Lucky » Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:55 am

StarWarsStarTrek wrote: I'm busy, but I'll try.
In a thread like this not responding to a reply is conceding the point, and you made a thread to get Darkstar to reply, and he did, but you are not responding to him.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Evidence please.
You're asking me to prove a negative. It doesn't work that way.

I take it that you don't have a copy of the ICS-II.
http://www.phombo.com/science-technolog ... l/popular/#

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/File:Aot ... ctions.jpg
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Again, evidence please.
You claimed there are guns on the troop transports, you have to prove it. I already post two traeds at two different sites that had no one able to show guns on them.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Those were flak cannons, not turbolasers. Said flak cannons were designed to shoot down starfighters and missiles, so obviously they wouldn't do as well against Star Wars capital ships.
Prove they are AA guns.

Prove that the guns used are significantly less powerful then the heavy guns. Light medium and heavy guns are shown to be treated as no different unless the order is given in the malevolence trilogy.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: And firing full powered shots would do what, exactly? What advantage would full powered shots that might simply miss have against multiple smaller powered shots? AT-ETs are hardly that durable or well armored by Star Wars standards.
In the movie they are taking down one or two droids at a time, but they had more then enough room to throw around hundreds if not thousands of tons worth of TNT.

AT-ETs are according to the ICS 2 as I recall able to trow around kilotons, and they are the main battle tank of the Republic. AT-ETs are the best tank we see in all of Star Wars for crying out loud.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Except that it wasn't a "full power shot", nor was it even the main laser cannons.
That was according to quotes on the page a full power shot from the big est guns on Slave-I.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: When I watch the Battle of Ryloth episode (I will, trust me), I'll respond to this. Hopefully today or tomorrow.
http://nolettershome.info/?Home
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: What? If you had a theater shield that could stop air bombardment, why wouldn't you turn it on during an enemy air raid?
I don't know, but the shield over the factories was not turned on until after Republic forces were nearly at the factory.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: And, of course, you need to provide evidence supporting your claim that the shields were off or concede.
We see them turn the shield on long after the fighting started.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Those are 5 to 1 numerical odds. You seem to think that winning against 5 to 1 odds is somehow impossible, but it really isn't, especially when you have the element of surprise, Jedi, air superiority, armored support, better equipment and better training on your side and are facing dumbass battle droids whose intelligence is questionable.
You seriously can't come up with a reason why the clones chose to destroy the droids one at a time when the ICS imply anything from kilo-joules to kilotons at their disposal.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Except that "100 to one" is a common figure of speech that isn't always literal; in fact, it rarely is. For example, Han Solo in a book said that these new Mandalorian starfighters could go through supernovas. Do you want me to use that figure of speech against you?
Given the context the quote was spoken in I would think the count was serious. He was talking to people who should have had a reasonable idea of troop numbers, and given the numbers of clones it's not unlikely the droid numbers are about that.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Forgive me if I'm wrong, but a fusion reactor will not "blow up" in any chain reaction if a bomb were to blow it up. Star Wars only uses hypermatter for things such as star destroyers and other space ships, but in buildings they typically use fusion reactors; although not necessarily any fusion that we know of, and there's no evidence that said fusion reactor would be like a lighted bomb.
In the real world a fusion reactor would not blow up the way they do in star Wars, but then people in Star Wars have an irrational love for seemingly pointless bottomless pits, and a deep seated hatred of things like hand rails.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... Compliance

The EU says they tried to put a hypermatter reactor in a Star Destroyer, and they couldn't make it work without blowing up the ship, and the EU says Star Destroyers use solar ionization reactors like it does T.I.E. fighters.

The fuel seen in the Invisible Hand, and the fuel the Republic want that was found naturally on Malastare did not seem to have exotic properties.

We see several reactors of different sizes, and they all have the similar seeming designs.
http://st-v-sw.net/STSWimpower.html
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Fair enough, but how does that negatively affect Star Wars in this debate, if at all? What's your point? Are you admitting that Star Wars ships can destroy Star Trek ground installations with even near misses?
It mean that Star Destroyers of even the Empire can't have gigaton weapons, or Star Wars weapons do not do most of their damage through DET because Hoth and the factory would have been shaken to the ground just by shooting near the edge of the shield.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Details for the second one? For the first one, I explained that earlier in this post.
You need to provide proof that the I.H. was being shot with AA guns.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_Crash
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Because channeling all their power to their main guns would leave them extremely exposed to return fire and would reduce their mobility and other important things. Power isn't unlimited.
You fail to understand the simple consept of dialing up the guns beyond something like .0000000000001% of maximum out put. They should have no problem pumping out gigatons, but we know from the Rebel defenses on Hoth they can't.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Because Coruscant has been a stable planet in terms of food/water supplies for a long time, whereas Mandalore is repeatably facing purges and severe population decreases do to various reasons.
Mandalore was very stable, and a good way to help keep it stable is to make sure everyone can get what they need. It would be a simple matter to terraform it according to you.

They should have no trouble importing huge amounts of water from some place like Hoth, and good soil from some other planet, but they don't implying they can't for some reason.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: *sigh* Not this whole "omg the Star Wars galaxy is 'modest sized' ha" thing again. The Star Wars essential atlas; or was it the new essential atlas? something like that, states that the Star Wars galaxy is 120,000 LYs across.
G-canon says modest sized galaxy, and that the Empire took up only a tiny part of the galaxy. G-canon beats C-canon no matter how much the information is repeated.

The maps you are thinking of, either have the planets in the wrong places, or the scale is off. If the planets are in the wrong places then it doesn't matter what the map says the size of the galaxy is because the map is wrong, and are useless. If the scale is wrong then the maps are still useful. 12,000 light years fits G-canon well.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Double standard, not only is the 10,000 LY figure for the Star Wars galaxy BS, but the UFP also only inhabits a very small portion of its 8,000 LY territory.
The 10 to 12 thousand light year size comes from G-canon. G-canon always wins.

Prove that the UFP only inhabits a very small portion of it's 8,000 LY territory. They have a booming terraforming industry after all.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: If the United States were cut off from the rest of the world for some reason, it WOULD suffer major instability due to its economy crashing, and possibly suffer a huge oil crisis. However, in the short term it will not suffer a major food or water shortage iirc.
Your analogy isn't very good. A better analogy would be what would happen if the Earth was suddenly unable to trade with the rest of the universe.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Where could there be a "sign" needed for that? It isn't contradicted so it stands as valid.
There is no visible sign of what would have to be a huge thing to feed the large population on Coruscant.

No one ever talks about it.

No one ever goes there.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Uh, I DID. Wookieepedia, and Wookiepedia also cites it.
It is generally considered polite to link to the page the quote came from.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Evidence?
The Death Star-II is shown to have what we know is a Star Wars style fusion reactor.

Obi-Won powers down a fusion reactor in a New hope.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Since when? If someone shoots a missile at a tank, the first shot will not cause the same damage as the next two, especially since modern tanks have very formidable armor. Evidence shows that the Death Star's superlaser was indeed DET, because a chain reaction weapon would be unlikely to work via 3 bursts.
This has already been covered.
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... 711&hilit=
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... 1583&hilit
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: "be enough to defeat the Republic" - evidence or concede.
You see two senators freak out, and the Banking clan rep said it to try to scare them. Clearly 3,000,000 more battle droids would be a major threat to the Republic.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Which proves the point that the CIS was not ready for full scale war, since they had no counter to many of the weaponry that the Republic had.
The CIS had counters as we see since the war is about evenly matched, and the CIS does not have different gear then in Ep.2.

It is a matter of not having the defenses, but not having them in the right places. Ep.2 is a rather poor showing of Star Wars sensor tech.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: G canon > those sources, given that G canon shows hyperdrive speeds in the tens of millions of C.
Because of the existence of hyperlanes there is no contradiction no matter how much you might want it.

Where are you getting the millions of C from?
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Actually, I watched the movie.
Then you know how hyperlanes effect travel in Star Wars, and how without hyperlanes you have a very hard time going anywhere.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Actually, one of the G canon novels mentions 1 million star systems, so G canon actually proves my point.
You need to explain how the Empire having a million systems means the quotes that say the Empire exists in a modest galaxy, and only takes up a tiny part of said small galaxy are contradicted. It's the same book after all.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: They completed the Death Star 2 to 60% completion in 6 months. This is an astronomically large display of industrial might. Do you understand how large of a feat this is?
More like 4 years at least, and it is possible they started construction on the DS-2 at the same time as the DS-1.

The ability to build a death star in months pretty much is contradicts the ending of Ep.4.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: A 900 km battle station constructed to 60% completion in 6 months is a feat beyond anything that the Federation can construct.
G-canon has a much smaller death star 2.

http://st-v-sw.net/STSWdeathstarsizes.html#vs

^_^In fact some scalings even put the DS-II at being only 17.7 km wide. I suppose if the DS-II was made in months then the 17.7 km scaling would be the most likely. ^_^
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Those are not exactly thick staffs. Again, iirc bending a thin enough staff is possible even if it's made out of high grade steel, simply because it's super thin.
Yes, but we are talking about dursteel, and it is suppose to be far superior to simple steel, and laugh off gigatons. It shouldn't be damaged by an angry woman smacking it.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Are you seriously saying that durasteel doesn't have varying grades of quality, even though practically EVERY material has varying degrees of quality? Are you saying that a durasteel staff in Star Wars would have the same quality as a Star Wars reinforced bunker?
That is what I'm lead to believe from everything I have read on the topic.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: What fusion reactors? We don't see any fusion reactors in the Death Star, not in G canon, which you claim overrides the idea of hypermatter, even though G canon does not contradict hypermatter. Thus, hypermatter is canon.
The thing Lando and Wedge blew up sure looked like a Star Wars style fusion reactor to me.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Star Wars does occasionally use titanium alloy hulls, especially for starfighters. However, said alloys are obviously far stronger than any alloys that we have today.
Prove that the alloys are better then what we have in the real world.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Which does not make it any easier for Death Star to not collapse on itself, which it clearly didn't.
That was the reactor, or superlaser's doing.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Because such a population boom would have been mentioned and yet we see no such evidence of a 1000 to 1 million leap in planets.
Why would it be mentioned? It's very clear the UFP has no trouble filling planets with people, and it is working hard to make more livable planets through extensive terraforming.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Which the Yuuzhang Vong war proved. The fact that Star Wars took over 300 trillion casualties and yet was still able to function shows its clearly massive scale compared to Star Trek.
No, it just shows they were religious nut jobs.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Why is it that Trekkies only let the Empire on the Star Wars side, and yet allow a bunch of various powers on their side, including the borg?
I wouldn't know not being a Trekky, but I'd guess it has to do with everyone in Star Wars hating the Empire, and the Empire needing to hold it's own people at gun point in order to keep them from revolting., but the UFP being reasonably liked by even it's enemies., and having been able to talk the Borg into working with them likely has something to do with it.

I actually watch and read more Star Wars then I do Star Trek.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Except that there is evidence that the rakata were less advanced than the PT/OT/post OT Star Wars galaxy, and there is no evidence that they went around teraforming millions of planets when they themselves only controlled a few dozen.
The Rakata were know for striping entire planets of resources, terraforming entire worlds, and killing their slaves.

They made the Star Forge.

The only thing they did not have was "modern" Star Wars navigation computers.

There was an older precursor race call the celestials. These guy are rumored to have made major hyperlanes.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: You have not compared this with Star Wars teraforming, and thus your feat isn't in perspective.
I haven't seen an example of terraforming in Star Wars that is even remotely on the level of Star Trek.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Really? Evidence?
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Genesis_Device
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Epsilon_119
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Please provide details. The situation/context, etc.
The Republic wanted to take out a lone in order to fund the purchase of 5,000,000 more clones.

They already had purchased 3,000,000 adult clones, and an unknown number of child clones about Boba Fetts age.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: In comparison, the Federation engages ships at almost literally spitting distance, mix up "joules" and "watts", and on the ground charge into battle with pajamas and no combined arms tactics.
Provide proof, at least one example for each claim.

I seem to recall those pajamas as you call them have climate control functions, and "Nor the Battle to the strong" shows heavy armor that is at least as good as the cheap plastic Storm Troopers have.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Except that we clearly see the weapons being fired and HITTING cities, causing kiloton level explosions. A common trekkie counterargument would be to claim that the shields lessoned the damage, except that ST shields don't seem to "lesson" the damage of weapons, but instead stop them until the shields go down.
Show some proof. I've never seen nor heard of such an episode. It shouldn't be hard for you to find a clip on a sire like YouTube. The E-D was able to go through 3000 km of rock in 19 seconds, and the hole was wide enough to see the sky from the bottom, I don't believe you.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: With massive fleets and powerful armies far more powerful than any Federation fleet?
As I recall the Vong did it by doing things like dropping big rocks on planets, dropping their own multiple kilometer long ships on planets, and biological weapons. Any power could do that in Star Trek.

Do you know what Star Fleet's General order 24 is? It is the order to kill everything on the planet, and is carried out by a single ship, it takes less then a day, and does not necessarily leave a planet behind.

The Vong are nothing special by Trek standards, and they would not last long because they are rude. Trek powers stay alive by not angering the ROBs that are surprisingly common.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Evidence?
It's in the thread I linked to, I don't feel like repeating myself, and don't see what it has to do with this thread.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Except that you haven't provided any contradiction from G canon, and thus your "it's contradicted by G canon!" claim is unsupported.
What do you want proof of a contradiction of?
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Presumably the passengers, based on the text, but maybe both.
Then post the quote since you don't seem to be sure.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: More than that; hyperdrives can go tens of millions of C, as shown when Obi Wan went to Kamino, or the numerous examples of ships moving across the galaxy in a matter of hours.
I only see examples of travel along well known and maintained hyperlanes being given. It's outright stated a precursor group artificially made hyperlanes to make crossing the galaxy easy.

It might help you to be more specific.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: What part of the fact that Star Wars ships can cross the galaxy in hours don't you understand? 100s of C could not accomplish that; tens of millions of C would, thus proof that Star Wars ships are astronomically fast.
Hyperdrive speed depends on a number of things like hyperlanes.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Evidence that they "could not continue the war" instead of that they would be logistically harmed?
The need for hyperlanes is the reason the Republic beg the Huts to let them use their hyperlanes.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: The infinite empire was actually very small by Star Wars standards mainly because of their limited hyperdrive capabilities compared to later Star Wars civilizations.
And you will provide proof that the infinite empire was small by Star Wars standards.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: The outer rims might have been perhaps the biggest black market, but in terms of economic might the core worlds were obviously larger.
I suppose that's why the Trade fed cared about it so much. The only reason there would be a black market is if people could not get the goods and services they wanted or needed legally.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: What you still don't seem to understand is that KAMINO WASN'T EVEN KNOWN TO MOST OF THE GALAXY! Hence why Obi Wan had to FIND Kamino first. To suggest that Obi Wan used a hyperlane to get there when Kamino was hardly known to anybody is a little ridiculous.
All the evidence says Kamino was not the unknown place you want it to be given Obi-won had no trouble finding out where it was, and getting there.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Did you even watch AOTC? Obi Wan got the information from a friend, who in the novel he states is one of the most knowledgeable people in he knows to get information from, and even he doesn't know the exact coordinates to get there. Then, Jocasta Nu, who Obi Wan says is also one of the most knowledgeable people he knows, didn't even know of the planet's existence. And yet you're claiming that "lots of people knew where it was"? Heck, even Yoda didn't know that the planet existed, and Yoda was almost 900 years old!
And yet Obi-won had no real trouble finding the place and getting there.

Why should Nu and Yoda know of the place?
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: The Jedi records WERE indeed tampered with. Kamino didn't show up in Star War's astronomical amounts of libraries nor the holonet, or else Obi Wan could have found information there. If there was indeed a hyperlane plotted to Kamino, there would also be data about it, which there wasn't.
Why would Obi-won look on the Holonet?

You are ignoring the fact he had no trouble finding the cloners.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Therefore, your "Obi Wan used a hyperlane to get to Kamino!" argument is moot because Kamino was an unknown planet to 99.9999+% of the galaxy.
It was easy for him to find and get to, and that destroys your argument.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Which is assuming that the UFP could find said hyperlanes somehow,
Hyperlanes are public knowledge. There are maps everywhere.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: have enough competence to mine them,
They did something similar in DS9.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: have enough mines and ships to mine them,
Self replicating mines should do the job.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: act fast enough to mine them and that said mines would do any more than cause minor damage to Star Wars ships.
Given the UFP can do that in canon there should not be much trouble.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: In fact, given that Star Wars ships in hyperdrive move astronomically fast, the mines might not even have fast enough reaction times to detonate; mines don't detonate easily, and a Star Wars ship going over a space mine field for less than a nanosecond isn't likely to trip it.
It's easy for Trek ships to force a ship using a hyperdrive to slow down given Trek's crazy control of gravity.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Why not, given that Star Wars ships are orders of magnitude faster than any opponent the Federation has ever faced?
You said you watched the SW:TCW movie. The plot revolved around needing to beg the Huts for use of their Hyperlanes because the CIS had mined the Republic's lanes.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Or it could simply be withstanding the mine detonations, which would be unlikely to damage shielded star destroyers, or simply moving so fast that the mine fields would not have time to detonate, and said detonations would actually release energy SLOWER than the Star Wars ships are moving.
Prove a Star Destroyer can withstand hundreds of megatons.

Prove Trek weapons are not fast enough.

Prove the UFP can't force a Star Wars ship out of hyperspace.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Except that even without hyperlanes Star Wars ships are FAR faster than Star Trek ships, as shown when Obi Wan traveled to Kamino in his starfighter in a matter of hours or days. Your idea that Obi Wan used a hyperlane even though nobody seemed to even know the location of Kamino is absurd.
Obi-won had no trouble finding Kamino, and that shoots down your argument.

You need to prove that there are no known hyperlanes to Kamino.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: The point is that the Federation supposedly has some extremely powerful weapons that they lack the competence to actually use, even if said use would simply be an effective deterrence.
Give some canon examples of what you mean.

It's not like the Republic/Empire doesn't use capabilities their ships have.^_^
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Ever heard of deterrence? Apparently, the Federation is too stupid to understand that basic theory.
They already seem to have a M.A.D. with the Romulans.

That won't work on the Borg.

The klingons don't want to start wars with the UFP.

The other powers aren't be more then annoying.

Have you ever watched Star Trek?
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Then how would the borg produce ships? Do they magically appear out of nowhere?
As far as I can tell the Borg grow ships with nanotech, and then most of them leave. Planets don't matter much aside from raw materials.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: So you're making the unsupported claim that the UFP has indeed been time travel attacking the borg, but we just don't hear of it, even though the borg are still around?
There was a temporal cold war shown in Enterprise, Voyager showed us some time ships from the future, and section 31 has time travel technology, and does not care about the rules.

Why would they want to get rid of the borg?
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: I didn't claim that you said that they can beam through shields, but you did admit that can't. Maybe "concede" was the wrong word; perhaps "agree" is better for this scenario.
To bad it is possible to beam through shields.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Or maybe the borg are simply utter morons.
We see that if the Borg want to assimilate a group they send as many ships as need be to get the job done. They just don't care enough about the UFP, or have some other use for them.

You haven't seen much trek have you.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Then why don't the borg send 2 cubes instead of 1 to attack it? Oh yeah, because the borg are morons.
Because it does not want to.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Contradiction; you claim that they have a special interest in the UFP, but then claim that they have a "mild" interest in the UFP. Warp strafing could have destroyed critical Earth defense systems and infrastructure, and possibly damage the Federation fleet, but the borg are obviously too stupid to try that.
Have you ever watched Star trek?

That's not the Borg's M.O., and it is canon the Borg could assimilate the UFP if it wanted to, but it does not. We can only guess why.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: By that logic, your supposed contradictions from TCW are merely based off of the fact that the show is made for children that are too young to care about technical calculations, and that the creators of the shows themselves probably don't know about Star Wars ship calculations. Unlike your OOU explanation, this is actually a pretty valid explanation, given that it's basically a cartoon with other examples of ridiculousness, such as Ahsoka Tano defeating 3 magnaguards and holding off Grevious, and that the creators of the show actually admitted that the show is designed to appeal to a younger audience and is therefore exaggerated.
It's the reason there are no large ground combat scenes in Trek, why they never show the tanks/AFV/APC/IFV, and why they never show the ground troops with their gear.

SW;TCW is a show made for teens and older. The ICS are just pretty picture books made for little kids who don't know what the numbers mean.

Ahsoka is suppose to be well above average in the combat arts. Most Jedi would not be able to do what she does.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Star Wars troopers have armor, NBC protection, weapons that actually have trigger guards, grenades, mortar, artillery support, HUDs, advanced communications systems, tanks, etc. Federation redshirts lack these in any consistent manner. Instead, they have phasers that don't have trigger guards and red pajamas.
Storm Trooper armor is crap
http://st-v-sw.net/STSWtrooparmor.html

Blasters are as accurate as muskets from what I've seen, or the elite troops are just that bad.

The problem is they never showed a fresh/properly outfitted unit.
http://st-v-sw.net/STSWground.html
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Except that the Enterprise was barely able to escape what was a weaker than usual black hole, and needed a plot device to survive it.
Details are needed. What episode, what happened in the episode

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Re: A challenge to Trekkies

Post by Lucky » Sat Dec 11, 2010 11:03 am

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:
If you were to watch ROTS, you'd realize that the flak cannons were firing SHELLs, and that you see SHELLS exploding and shrapnel flying out. Your assertion that it's a proper representation of turbolaser firepower because of a vague picture that does not show where that bolt came from is absurd. The ROTS: ICS confirms it, G canon confirms it and multiple other sources do too.
Don't you find it odd that the CIS uses the exact same shell for three different guns? They use them on proton cannon, the weapon being tested in defenders of the peace, and on the mass drivers on the IH? I find it far more believable that the cylinders hold a gas, or is something like a capacitor.

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Re: A challenge to Trekkies

Post by Picard » Sat Dec 11, 2010 12:11 pm

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:If you were to watch ROTS, you'd realize that the flak cannons were firing SHELLs, and that you see SHELLS exploding and shrapnel flying out. Your assertion that it's a proper representation of turbolaser firepower because of a vague picture that does not show where that bolt came from is absurd. The ROTS: ICS confirms it, G canon confirms it and multiple other sources do too.
I do remember bolts exploding, but, frankly, I do not remember seeing any shells or shrapnels you claim. If there are some, enlighten me - tell me exact scene.
And where did you get the idea that the two sides were using 9 millimeter handguns, or anything analogous to that?
Here:
Which would be better than multiple low powered shots how?
Laser cannons that were rapid fire and each shot had a weapon yield on par with modern day heavy missiles. That's actually very impressive firepower coming from a starfighter based weapon designed to take out other starfighters.

The fact that Obi Wan's starfighter was able to take said bolt; which could shatter meter wide asteroids; with little more than a small hole is an impressive durability feat too.
Point was that ICS claims firepower which not only was never seen, but is impossible as per canon novelization.
Leland Chase, appointed by Lucasarts to handle Star Wars canon, says otherwise. C canon is official as long as it's not violated by a higher canon source.
And your average Warsie from SDN will regularly try to reshape G canon to fit ICS ("they dialed down yield, OMG").

Plus:
STARLOG: "The Star Wars Universe is so large and diverse. Do you ever find yourself confused by the subsidiary material that's in the novels, comics, and other offshoots?"
LUCAS: "I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions."
If he decided to use same policy as Star Trek, then you have two separate universes, "basic universe" and "expanded universe", but only first one is canon.
1. Are you serious? Leland Chase specifically made a distinction between C canon and N canon, and SEPARATED them, yet you come and claim them to be equal? According to who? You?
2. Ah, what a justification. "It does".
3. Except that ROTS novelization does not state that Star Wars ships use fusion. You have yet to provide any evidence for this.
I adressed first point just above, so:
"Children on Tatooine tell each other of the dragons that live inside the suns; smaller cousins of the sun-dragons are supposed to live inside the fusion furnaces that power everything from starships to Podracers."
No, it does not give a 1.5 megaton figure. If anything, it implies a gigaton level yield. Why? Because even KOTOR era Taris cities are the size of continents. Scaling from a city to small town based on scaling from modern day cities to small towns make a Star Wars small town larger than New York City, enough to take gigatons to vaporize, especially given that Star Wars skyscrapers dwarf mountains. Darkstar however, instead decided to take an example of Mos Eisley, a small town in Tatooine, and used that as his evidence despite the fact that the quote was in the context of Corsucant. In case you haven't noticed, Tatooine is a pretty backwater planet, and to try to use a small town from Tatooine for calculations that are not in the context of Tatooine is very dishonest.
city=/=small town

And you have yourself admitted that Darkstar is right. He decided to use small town, which is exactly what novelization states, and not megapolis, which is mentioned nowhere in novelization.
If you need it again:
bolts powerful enough to vaporize small town.
"they won't last more than a few seconds either way" - which you have not proven or provided any evidence of. Instead, you make absurd claims that Star Trek photon torpedos have yields in the hundreds of megatons when visual evidence shows them to be kiloton level. You then try to dismiss the ICS with out of context quotes and calculations.
Really? If you want me to use TOS, we can end up in 50+ gigaton range. Instead, I used "Rise", which, when properly scaled, gives us 200 megatons, "Pegasus", and "Skin of Evil", both of which give 500 megaton torpedoes. And ICS is at odds with entire canon, and even 95% of EU.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Ess ... nutes.html

See how easy that was?
Ah, yes, Darth Wong, which does not know difference between "official" and "canon", helped writing ICS2, and is about as honest and unbiased as average politician. Really good example.

Sorry, but your allies did. Either way, Wookieepedia is actually pretty reliable; you'd be hard pressed to find a single contradiction. If Wookieepedia cites a source, it's typically correct.

Unless it is incorrect. Which it usually is, due to it ignoring canon.

Said core ships of which contained perhaps millions or even billions of battle droids.
So you never watched movie... any figure above few tens of thousands of droids (hundred thousnds at most) per ship is unlikely.

But they weren't.
They were countered by WW2-style AAA.

Except that TF battleships were not prepared to face an assault fleet of star destroyers. Said battleships iirc were actually reconfigured transport ships.
They were stll powerful enough for us to see several Republic destroyers converging on single battleship during Battle of Coruscant.
The CIS gave the GAR a somewhat good fight, but it was over in a matter of hours. BTW, said hailfire droids were easily destroyed by LAATs, and the CIS mysteriously seemed to lack AA guns, further showing that the GAR was far more prepared for a full scale war.
Really? They were exactly as prepared as Sidious needed them to be.

Except that Star Wars: The essential Atlas states that the Star Wars galaxy is 120,000 LYs across. You're probably going to complain about this being "non canon" despite the fact that Lucasart's official stance is that it IS canon, aka C canon.
Quote I already provided above.
A 200 light year long galaxy with as many normal sized stars as the Star Wars galaxy has would collapse upon itself.
And indeed, some data I found state 10 000 ly diameter as minimum for spiral galaxy. And, BTW, how many stars you think SW galaxy has?
somethingIcalculated wrote:However, we have quote from novelization about SW galaxy having "1 million star systems". Assuming standard star density, and each star having planets, we have volume of about 40 000 cubic light years, which in turn gives us diameter of 47 light years. However, if we take 1/10 to 1/100 of stars having planets, we get volume of 400 000 to 4 million cubic light years, giving us diameter from 50 to 108 light years.

And you have evidence to support this, right?

http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWdeathstarindex.html
http://picard578.blogspot.com/2010/08/d ... -size.html

We see Star Wars heavy turbolaser bolts capable of gigaton or even teraton level shots. We see Star Trek photon torpedos having yields in the kiloton range.
Yes, from ICS and some other parts of EU. Contradicted by (G)canon.
You've also mysteriously left out the part of the argument about hyperdrive speed, although to be fair you might have simply not have had enough time to finish it.
Probably; as a quick note on warp/hyperdrive issue, we have some insanely high and insanely low figures for both, but, as Darkstar put it, "Warp drive might be faster with effort, but standard speeds are faster for Empire".

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Re: A challenge to Trekkies

Post by StarWarsStarTrek » Sat Dec 11, 2010 3:26 pm

@Lucky, I'll respond to your post ASAP.
Picard wrote:
I do remember bolts exploding, but, frankly, I do not remember seeing any shells or shrapnels you claim. If there are some, enlighten me - tell me exact scene.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIiHO3UZ ... re=related

At around 8:00. Those obviously aren't turbolasers, because they'll firing shells and are ejecting shells too.

Here:
Which would be better than multiple low powered shots how?
"low powered shots" would still be proportionally more significant than a 9 mm handgun firing at a tank, so your analogy is incorrect.


Point was that ICS claims firepower which not only was never seen, but is impossible as per canon novelization.
ICS is canon as long as it isn't contradicted by G canon. You have yet to post a blatant contradiction, so the ICS stands.


And your average Warsie from SDN will regularly try to reshape G canon to fit ICS ("they dialed down yield, OMG").

Plus:
STARLOG: "The Star Wars Universe is so large and diverse. Do you ever find yourself confused by the subsidiary material that's in the novels, comics, and other offshoots?"
LUCAS: "I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions."
If he decided to use same policy as Star Trek, then you have two separate universes, "basic universe" and "expanded universe", but only first one is canon.
Clearly George Lucas was speaking from a literary/metaphoric standpoint rather than literal, because the official Star Wars website still lists the EU as canon. Unless if George Lucas was simply too lazy to change it, the formal stance is still that the EU is canon.
I adressed first point just above, so:
"Children on Tatooine tell each other of the dragons that live inside the suns; smaller cousins of the sun-dragons are supposed to live inside the fusion furnaces that power everything from starships to Podracers."
OMG! You do realize that "starships" and "podracers" do not equate to "star destroyers" and other warships, do you?


city=/=small town

And you have yourself admitted that Darkstar is right. He decided to use small town, which is exactly what novelization states, and not megapolis, which is mentioned nowhere in novelization.
If you need it again:
bolts powerful enough to vaporize small town.
Nice job at not reading my post. Taris's cities were the size of continents. Based on modern day city:small town scaling and being low end since Taris in the KOTOR era obviously wasn't as populated as PT era Coruscant, that means that a Star Wars "small town" is actually far larger than New York City.

This is further supported by the fact that Boba Fett mused that Mandalore has a population of about 4 million, which was smaller than many Star Wars towns. Not cities, town.

But instead, Darkstar thought that using a small town in the backwater Tatooine equates to a small town in Coruscant.


Really? If you want me to use TOS, we can end up in 50+ gigaton range. Instead, I used "Rise", which, when properly scaled, gives us 200 megatons, "Pegasus", and "Skin of Evil", both of which give 500 megaton torpedoes. And ICS is at odds with entire canon, and even 95% of EU.
Evidence for these scalings?

Ah, yes, Darth Wong, which does not know difference between "official" and "canon", helped writing ICS2, and is about as honest and unbiased as average politician. Really good example.
Nice job at admitting that C canon is still "official".

Definition of Official from google and wordnebweb:


" having official authority or sanction; "official permission"; "an official representative"


Unless it is incorrect. Which it usually is, due to it ignoring canon.
And you can find a source proving this, right?



So you never watched movie... any figure above few tens of thousands of droids (hundred thousnds at most) per ship is unlikely.
Actually, given the mass of the core ship, and the fact that the CIS doesn't really have to worry about ergonomics for battle droids, quite a large amount of battle droids could fit in a core ship, especially if the battle droids are folded up and compressed.



They were countered by WW2-style AAA.
Source?

They were stll powerful enough for us to see several Republic destroyers converging on single battleship during Battle of Coruscant.
Right...3 years into the war, after the CIS and the GAR has both been fully mobilized for war.


Really? They were exactly as prepared as Sidious needed them to be.
And Sidious intentionally sabotaged the development of both sides.


Quote I already provided above.
So you're just going to deny Star Wars 99% of its information? Huh.
And indeed, some data I found state 10 000 ly diameter as minimum for spiral galaxy. And, BTW, how many stars you think SW galaxy has?
somethingIcalculated wrote:However, we have quote from novelization about SW galaxy having "1 million star systems". Assuming standard star density, and each star having planets, we have volume of about 40 000 cubic light years, which in turn gives us diameter of 47 light years. However, if we take 1/10 to 1/100 of stars having planets, we get volume of 400 000 to 4 million cubic light years, giving us diameter from 50 to 108 light years.
Nice out of context quote. It was specifically stated that the million star systems were a small portion of the galaxy...and yet you decide to use that as the TOTAL amount of star systems...why?
Yet they cherry pick data. The Death Star 2 strangely varied in size from shot to shot, but the majority of the sources support a 900 km Death Star 2, so that stands.

BTW, you do realize that a smaller Death Star might actually help the Star Wars size, because it shows that the Death Star can blow up a planet with a smaller reactor?



Yes, from ICS and some other parts of EU. Contradicted by (G)canon.
Yet you have not actually provided a contradiction of this by G canon. Why? Because every unshielded object that a turbolaser ever hit in the movies was destroyed. Therefore, there is no upper limit described in G canon. Instead, we have lower limits in the megatons.

Probably; as a quick note on warp/hyperdrive issue, we have some insanely high and insanely low figures for both, but, as Darkstar put it, "Warp drive might be faster with effort, but standard speeds are faster for Empire".
Hyperdrive is vastly faster than warp drive, to the extent of which Star Wars has a nearly absolute advantage. A Republic fleet could attack any Star Trek planet at any instant with no warning, and then disappear with no way to track them. Meanwhile, the Federation would have to spread its forces out dangerously thin, because they cannot afford to concentrate their forces into small areas. The Republic can. Think of it as a very, very sharp sword vs a very blunt ax of equal mass.

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Re: A challenge to Trekkies

Post by Picard » Sat Dec 11, 2010 6:43 pm

StarWarsStarTrek wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIiHO3UZ ... re=related

At around 8:00. Those obviously aren't turbolasers, because they'll firing shells and are ejecting shells too.
Unless turbolasers are plasma weapons and these „shells“ are just canisters... appearance of bolts is same as in „standard“ turbolasers (not counting TESB asteroid destruction scene).


"low powered shots" would still be proportionally more significant than a 9 mm handgun firing at a tank, so your analogy is incorrect.
Still, for firing on armored target, one more powerful shot is just better.


ICS is canon as long as it isn't contradicted by G canon. You have yet to post a blatant contradiction, so the ICS stands.
ICS is technical book, and aside from Lucas stating that EU is „paralel universe“, just like Star Trek EU, even those in Lucasfilm who say that EU is canon, do that only in reference to actual events, not any technical data brought up by EU books.

1) ICS claims 600 gigajoule blasters for Slave I. Yet, sub-gigajoule shots „drained power packs of weapon“.
2) Acclamators have neutronium hulls. Well, what kind of neutronium? Star Wars neutronium mined on moons?
interwiev wrote: TOTAL FILM: "The Star Wars universe has expanded far beyond the movies. How much leeway do the game makers and novel writers have?"

LUCAS: "They have their own kind of world. There's three pillars of Star Wars. I'll probably get in trouble for this but it's OK! There's three pillars: the father, the son and the holy ghost. I'm the father, Howard Roffman [president of Lucas Licensing] is the son and the holy ghost is the fans, this kind of ethereal world of people coming up with all kinds of different ideas and histories. Now these three different pillars don't always match, but the movies and TV shows are all under my control and they are consistent within themselves. Howard tries to be consistent but sometimes he goes off on tangents and it's hard to hold him back. He once said to me that there are two Star Trek universes: there's the TV show and then there's all the spin-offs. He said that these were completely different and didn't have anything to do with each other. So I said, "OK, go ahead." In the early days I told them that they couldn't do anything about how Darth Vader was born, for obvious reasons, but otherwise I pretty much let them do whatever they wanted. They created this whole amazing universe that goes on for millions of years!"

TOTAL FILM: "Are you happy for new Star Wars tales to be told after you're gone?" LUCAS: "I've left pretty explicit instructions for there not to be any more features. There will definitely be no Episodes VII-IX. That's because there isn't any story. I mean, I never thought of anything. And now there have been novels about the events after Episode VI, which isn't at all what I would have done with it. The Star Wars story is really the tragedy of Darth Vader. That is the story. Once Vader dies, he doesn't come back to life, the Emperor doesn't get cloned and Luke doesn't get married..."
Clearly George Lucas was speaking from a literary/metaphoric standpoint rather than literal, because the official Star Wars website still lists the EU as canon. Unless if George Lucas was simply too lazy to change it, the formal stance is still that the EU is canon.
Clearly you are trying to reshape his words as you see fit. He said what he said, and he simply doesn't care what others think. Including Chee.


OMG! You do realize that "starships" and "podracers" do not equate to "star destroyers" and other warships, do you?
„Starships“ does equate „star destroyers“. Unless you think Star Destroyers are baloons filled with helium.
Nice job at not reading my post. Taris's cities were the size of continents. Based on modern day city:small town scaling and being low end since Taris in the KOTOR era obviously wasn't as populated as PT era Coruscant, that means that a Star Wars "small town" is actually far larger than New York City.

This is further supported by the fact that Boba Fett mused that Mandalore has a population of about 4 million, which was smaller than many Star Wars towns. Not cities, town.

But instead, Darkstar thought that using a small town in the backwater Tatooine equates to a small town in Coruscant.
There is no small town on Coruscant, entire planet is megapolis. And I already proved EU isn't canon, just above. And even if it is, then we have contradiction.


Evidence for these scalings?
http://picard578.blogspot.com/2010/08/u ... yield.html
http://picard578.blogspot.com/2010/10/e ... -zero.html

Nice job at admitting that C canon is still "official".

Definition of Official from google and wordnebweb:


" having official authority or sanction; "official permission"; "an official representative"
It is official if it carries „Star Wars“ name. But being part of „Star Wars“ brand does not make something canon. There are lot of „Star Trek „ games, yet none is canon.


And you can find a source proving this, right?
Neutronium hull; 200 GT turbolasers; their own policy that anything there must be from published source (no analysis of canon, then).


Actually, given the mass of the core ship, and the fact that the CIS doesn't really have to worry about ergonomics for battle droids, quite a large amount of battle droids could fit in a core ship, especially if the battle droids are folded up and compressed.
Maybe, but still not millions. Especially considering that core ship has to have room for engines, life support (there are Nemoidians onboard) etc.


Source?
Actually, I'm not sure myself anymore. That was scene in AotC but I think these were droid fighters, not triple-A.


Right...3 years into the war, after the CIS and the GAR has both been fully mobilized for war.
Said battleships were armed as early as Battle of Naboo.


And Sidious intentionally sabotaged the development of both sides.
And still Republic was left finantially exhausted? He did not need to sabotage development of both sides, he just needed to keep them in balance long enough.


So you're just going to deny Star Wars 99% of its information? Huh.
Of its information that is contradicted by canon. And you really think we have that much more information on Star Trek? We have lot of screen material but in general we have more information on quasar X9Z or some particular particle of interstellar gas than we have on facts that are relevant for this discussion.


Nice out of context quote. It was specifically stated that the million star systems were a small portion of the galaxy...and yet you decide to use that as the TOTAL amount of star systems...why?
Nice reshaping of canon...
ANH novelization wrote:
"The tridimensional solid screen filled one wall of the vast chamber from floor to ceiling. It showed a million star systems. A tiny portion of the galaxy, but an impressive display nonetheless when exhibited in such a fashion."

Tarkin's speech to Leia from the ANH novel, ch. 7, page 116 :

"This station is the final link in the new-forged Imperial chain which will bind the million systems of the galactic Empire together once and for all."

After Alderaan's destruction, Vader checks the display again. From Chapter 8, page 129:

"Vader stared at the motley array of stars displayed on the conference-room map while Tarkin and Admiral Motti conferred nearby. Interestingly, the first use of the most powerful destructive machine ever constructed had seemingly had no influence at all on that map, which in itself represented only a tiny fraction of this section of one modest-sized galaxy.
We know that "million star systems" is tiny portion of galaxy, and that Empire controls "million star systems" (controls, not that these systems are inhabited). So Galactic Empire is not truly "galactic".
Yet they cherry pick data. The Death Star 2 strangely varied in size from shot to shot, but the majority of the sources support a 900 km Death Star 2, so that stands.

BTW, you do realize that a smaller Death Star might actually help the Star Wars size, because it shows that the Death Star can blow up a planet with a smaller reactor?
Canon gives us 120 and 160 km Death Stars. And since superlaser is not laser at all, I don't know how that helps... we know that SW uses fusion, so „superlaser“ cannot be pure DET. Notion of SL being DET is contradicted by ANH novelization.
ANH novelization wrote: Theoretically, no weapon could penetrate the exceptionally dense stone of the ancient temple, but Luke had seen the shattered remnants of Alderaan and knew that for those in the incredible battle station that the entire moon would present simply another abstract problem in mass-energy conversion.


Yet you have not actually provided a contradiction of this by G canon. Why? Because every unshielded object that a turbolaser ever hit in the movies was destroyed. Therefore, there is no upper limit described in G canon. Instead, we have lower limits in the megatons.
Riight...
RotS novelization wrote: The skies of Coruscant blaze with war.
The artificial daylight spread by the capital's orbital mirrors is sliced by intersecting flames of ion drives and punctuated by starburst explosions; contrails of debris raining into the atmosphere become tangled ribbons of cloud. The nightside sky is an infinite lattice of shining hairlines that interlock planetoids and track erratic spirals of glowing gnats. Beings watching from rooftops of Coruscant's endless cityscape can find it beautiful.

From the inside, it's different. The gnats are drive-glows of starfighters. The shining hairlines are light-scatter from turbolaser bolts powerful enough to vaporize a small town. The planetoids are capital ships.


Hyperdrive is vastly faster than warp drive, to the extent of which Star Wars has a nearly absolute advantage. A Republic fleet could attack any Star Trek planet at any instant with no warning, and then disappear with no way to track them. Meanwhile, the Federation would have to spread its forces out dangerously thin, because they cannot afford to concentrate their forces into small areas. The Republic can. Think of it as a very, very sharp sword vs a very blunt ax of equal mass.
Not quite.
Last edited by Picard on Sun Dec 12, 2010 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

Admiral Breetai
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Re: A challenge to Trekkies

Post by Admiral Breetai » Sun Dec 12, 2010 10:04 am

one would think mister Saxton some what nonobjective leaning precludes the ICS as usable evidence (biased fan calcs are biased even if official?)

but that aside there really is nothing seen in the movies that lend any credence to the fire power the ICS touts out-the mere fact that it is not supported in primary canon by any conclusive evidence should nullify it's validity in a debate

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