Kane Starkiller wrote:GStone wrote:Okay, I'll point it out...again, people. I said that even if some of the beam got through, a jemmie holding a dead body in front of them is still good because only a small fraction of the full beam would get by, hitting the jemmie that's holding the body.
Does everyone get that now...or do I have to say it again.
So you are saying that when set to wide beam and at ranges at which AR-558 was fought beam's intensity becomes to small to affect a soldier? That was the point in the first place.
When I read this, I had to do a double take. There is absolutely no way you could have gotten that from what I wrote.
So, I will break it down even further.
Say, you have a phaser blast that will deal out a representative 100 units of force for the total output that beam has produced. Now, when you put something in the way of those 100 units that gets rid of say 90-95% of the total units of force, what gets by is the last 5-10%. Now, taking a wide beam phaser blast that's set to kill, but not disintegrate, 5-10% of that amount of force will hurt like a motherfucker, but it won't kill.
What you're claiming is the point in the first place was
not the point when I brought it up.
Pay attention.
Yes they did it in groups and they weren't in any kind of formation. In fact if you watch the episode you'll see that the entire group is exposed as it charges into the cave so wide beam shot would take out ALL of them and there would be no one left to pick up the dead bodies.
If they were holding the bodies in front of them, why would they charge? You are pretending like they couldn't even act with coordinated efforts. This is contradictory to what we have seen, especially in both small and large fleet engagements.
First of all this is ridiculous. If you want to use shields use actual shields like the ones riot police uses.
This is all beside the point since they DIDN'T use any kind of shields and a single wide beam shot would have taken them all down if it was powerful enough.
And you continue to ignore any secondary effects that a phaser has on the surrounding environment, like what would happen would magically go away or not even happen at all.
And if this is really a moot point, why is it that this particular argument is the one that has brought you back here to post? You say it's moot, but you keep arguing it anyway.
Now you are modifying the Jem'Hadar attack beyond recognition. The entire point was the usefulness of the wide beam against Jem'Hadar attck AS WE SAW IT.
What the hell is wrong with you? I have never suggested that the use of jemmie bodies as shields should only be thought of in how they came out of the bottle neck as shown in the episode. And no one would expect that they wouldn't alter how they came out of the bottle neck. In DS9=To The Death, we see they are capable of individual and coordinated plans. That was the point of them training with the Starfleet people before they got to the planet with the iconian gateway on it.
Obviously if you go ahead and modify their tactics you can make up whatever you want.
And you are insisting that Starfleet change their tactics by setting their phasers to wide beam kill. You're saying only Starfleet is supposed to change tactics, but the jemmies are to be mindless animals. That's a double standard.
Of course you claimed that wide beam phasers could actually destroy the entire bottleneck and if they were that powerful Jem'Hadar bodies would offer no protection.
Wide beam kill and conical disintegration are in the canon. Rock is also NOT INDESTRUCTABLE.
How would killing the entire Jem'Hadar squad in a single stroke be a suicide?
Oh, Lord. It's suicide
for the Jem'Hadar.
And what does this have to do with your claims of Jem'Hadar superior speed and superior strength which are the only things relevant for your proposed tactics?
You asked for evidence of their superior strength and stamina. I gave it to you. I also provided evidence of their social structure amongst other Jem'Hadar, the Vorta and the Founders.
I know you understood the point of me providing it.
And this changes the fact that Jem'Hadar are not stronger than humans how exactly?
You don't remember what you wrote? Fine. You said:
"In fact in "The search" we see Sisko taking down three Jem'Hadar soldiers. One actually swings his rifle to hit Sisko and he stops his blow cold with his hands. In the end it took three Jem'Hadar to finally subdue Sisko. Sorry but that clearly proves that Jem'Hadar soldiers are NOT stronger than humans."
In a not surprising fashion, you took a single incident of a human fending off Jemmies. But, you used that as proof that Jemmies are not stronger than humans, which you admitted to by saying it proves your point.
I gave an example of a human doing something we normally don't do. And that is lifting cars off small children. I also gave a reason for it happening: adrenaline.
When a human lifts a car off a child because of adrenaline, are we to say they they can't be human because of this one incident?
You need to stop acting like you don't understand what is being said.
How much does Fullerton weigh. Ever saw World's strongest men competition?
He probably weighs somewhere between 160 and 200 hundred. Now, Michael Dorn does not have the body of someone competing in the World Strongest Men competition. He couldn't make it to the finals. The reason for Worf's strength is his genetics that he built upon by working out.
Yes it took something like 12 Jem'Hadar to take him down and before the last fight he already suffered multiple broken ribs and was still winning against them.
He wasn't winning anything. He was getting his ass beat. Remember the button he had to push to keep the match ups going? He was crawling to it each time and he was doing it painfully.
How strong is the remote? How tough is Borg armor?
You tell me. It wouldn't hurt you to actually do research on the canon.
Or Jem'Hadar have weaker necks.
Of course. A race bred for battle is gonna have a deliberate weakness of weaker neck. Tell me. What's your evidence for such an assertion?
Tell this to Sisko.
You can't hand wave the canon. Do better next time.
It wasn't a single incident since he takes down three soldiers. I could point out that Kira also beats them quite handily but then again maybe you'll claim that Bajorans are also super strong.
Youu need to give up the part of your ego that's trying to save face when you make a ridiculous argument, like this and trying to split hairs. Adrenaline doesn't just shut off, which you'd if you actually had any biology knowledge. That makes it a single incident.
You're making this way too easy for anyone to show how wrong you are.
You began with a proposition of Jem'Hadar picking up a fallen comrade in the middle of battle and quickly positioning the body in front of himself before he too gets hit.
I never even implied that. You said that only because you don't want to pay attention to my posts.
Do you even know what it would mean to have the idea of a 'human shield' before fighting? It would require planning it beforehand. That means some people moving front to back. I was never talking about just charging en mass and then, grabbing someone to use as a shield.
You can't even keep my own context right, can you? You gotta substitute your own when your argument continues its downward spiral.
The point was usefulness of the supposed high energy wide beams against the OBSERVED Jem'Hadar attack tactic.
You haven't even been in this thread at all till now. It was proposed by me in reference to the use of a nondisintegrating wide beam setting on Starfleet soldiers' phasers. The entire proposal had absolutely nothing to do with the jemmies just
bum rushing.
The only ones that would think that are those that are incapable of reading the thread to see just what has been said.
And you still seem oblivious to the fact that if phasers are powerful enough to blow up the entire bottleneck those bodies won't offer any protection.
The point I have stood behind is that they wouldn't fuck up the bottle neck because it is tactically stupid. First, they are trying to protect a comm relay. They have transporter inhibitors and a physical bottle neck from the rock formation. It's gonna be a while before Starfleet resupplies them and there are jemmies at their back door, who also would be getting their own supplies, too.
In that situation, you don't fuck up a physical barrier like that because the relay was of military importance. That's why the jemmies were trying to get through. That is why the Dominion hadn't given up on trying to get control of it. Transporters would have gotten them to it quickly, but because of the starfleet transport inhibitors, they had to go in through the bottle neck. Jemmies can cloak, but they can't pass through solid matter, especially rock.
That is why wide beam wasn't used and single streams were, which results in the jemmies not needing to use their own soldiers to shield others from wide beam phaser shots. Tactically, wide beam is smart, but it doesn't work in the long term for this scenario because you will fuck yourself up.
If you bothered to pay attention to the episode and this thread, you would have understood all of that.
You haven't answered my question. Why weren't these tactics used in WW1.
Your question was based on very bad information. Jem'Hadar are stronger and have more stamina than humans. Also, there were no phasers in WW1 so the idea of using someone to block a wide beam shot is moot.
Is WW1 weaponry more effective than Starfleet's? Transporters have nothing to do with the point.
It does. It's defenseive tech, just like your side's insistence of using barbed wire to stop the jemmies or planting land mines, even though there are weapons usesd in Trek's battlefield that disintegrate solid matter easily.
Slugthrowers, land mines and barbed wire are no match for transporters/transporter inhibitors, phasers, photon grenades, theater/personal force fields, etc.
When you want to talk about ammo, it sucks because slugthrowers need to be replenished with more solid matter. Phasers just need energy. So, again, WW1 weaponry is shit in comparison.
Next time, pay more attention to what we are saying.
Your entire line of logic is a STRAWMAN.
Unless you have something to say that isn't a strawman, I'm not speaking with you anymore on this issue.