The Whole Bullets Vs Borg thing

[Praeothmin]

TheRedFear wrote:

Actually, and i'm not sure, but I THINK Klingons are actually the same as humans in pure physical strength. Worf is just so damn big that compared to most of the smaller average sized humans around him he SEEMS super strong. But in theory, another Human the same size as him would be just as strong.

Nope. Worf demonstrated how strong he really was many times, but most notably in an episode of DS9 (which I always forget the name off... :) ) where, while on Risa, he casually lifts a ful-grown man (probebly around 160 pounds) using only 1 arm, holds him for 2-3 seconds in the air, then throwns him 1-handed accross the room, close to a 10 feet distance.
I train in a Gym where a few guys are Worf's size, and they struggle while handling 100 pounds weight held waist high, so I'm sorry, but no ordinary human of Worf's size will do what Worf does, strength-wise.

W.I.L.G.A wrote:

The notion that all what is on the holodeck becomes real matter if the safety protocols are disengaged is fallacious.
Fact is that most of the holodeck matter is not real. As soon as the matter leaves the holodeck, it will disappear.

I never said that all the objects on the Holodeck become real when safeties are of. Obviously, the walls, the sky, the people still remain forcefields.
But certain objects that are, IMO, already real, are now "fully operationnal".

Fact is also that we see many times objects that was created in the Holodeck being taken out by people.
While it is true that most objects in the holodeck are force fields, the holodeck does also create real objects.
Do you believe that when we see people eating on holodecks, they are eating force fields?
I seem to recall at least once or twice in ST history having seen people have a candlelight dinner in the Holodeck, they brought no food and yet they ate. So where did the food come from?

Let me put it this way:
What would be easier, simpler?
That all the objects on the holodeck are forcefields, requiring complex mathematical algorythms to control every single interaction on the Holodeck?
Or that most of what is seen is only a Hologram, and that force fields are created only when needed by interaction with the environment, with certain difficult interactions (a gun, wielded weapons, objects that are supposed to have real weight in the real world) being handled by replicated matter?

For example, I enter the Holodeck.
All I see are trees everywhere.
do you truly believe that all the trees are already made of forcefields?
I think, since in Voyager the Holodeck was still used -even when energy conservation was critical, even when the food replicators were rationed- , even though sparsely, it means that the Holodeck doesn't use that much energy for its functions.
I have a hard time imagining that to be true if it is generating force fields all the time.
I believe that what would actually happen is this:
All the trees far from me are holographic images, without any solid form.
If I move towards a tree to touch it, then the Holodeck creates a forcefield for me to touch.
but things that are tough to handle with a forcefield, like water for example, are seemingly replicated in the holodeck.

One last time, to make short and (hopefully clearer :)... ):
Far objects, just holograms. Big, simple interactions, forcefields, and complex interactions, replicated matter.

[TheRedFear]

TheRedFear wrote:

Actually, and i'm not sure, but I THINK Klingons are actually the same as humans in pure physical strength. Worf is just so damn big that compared to most of the smaller average sized humans around him he SEEMS super strong. But in theory, another Human the same size as him would be just as strong.

Nope. Worf demonstrated how strong he really was many times, but most notably in an episode of DS9 (which I always forget the name off... :) ) where, while on Risa, he casually lifts a ful-grown man (probebly around 160 pounds) using only 1 arm, holds him for 2-3 seconds in the air, then throwns him 1-handed accross the room, close to a 10 feet distance.
I train in a Gym where a few guys are Worf's size, and they struggle while handling 100 pounds weight held waist high, so I'm sorry, but no ordinary human of Worf's size will do what Worf does, strength-wise.

That's certainly one of the better examples, yes, but how many times have you seen Arnold Swarzenegger or Sylvester Stallone or Vin Deisal or other human muscly guys do something similar?

Hell look at Conan the Barbarian.

That's what I have been told it is. That Worf is just the Conan of Klingons. Mind you, I dunno.

Personally, I am inclined to see Klingons posessing, as Captain Picard once put it, "Mega-Strength", but convincing arguments to the contrary CAN be made. Unlike Vulcans, who's superior physical strength is often explicitly stated, nobody on the shows has ever explicitly stated Klingons are super strong. As far as I know. And Worf, badass as he is, has never done anything Conan of Cimmeria couldn't do.

And before anybody retorts with "Well Worf isn't nearly as muscular as Conan yet he's still on that level" let's remember that all the characters on Trek perform physically better than the physiques of their actors would lead you to expect. lol

The closest thing to another big strength feat he's had was lifting that heavy beam off his Son but, there are tales here in the real world of average everyday men and women summoning great strength when trying to save their children, so that doesn't really tell us much.

Again, I lean toward beleiving Klingons have some measure of Mega Strength. But a convincing argument to the contrary can be made.

[Mike DiCenso]

Actually, Klingon general physical superiority over Humans has been explicitly mentioned several times. At the very least, the Klingon multiple internal organ redundancy know as brak'lul (TNG: "Ethics") , which gives them a real advantage that humans do not. Whether brak'lul is a result of natural evolution, or genetic engineering, ala the Augments, or some combination thereof, is not known.

As for super-strength, we've seen mixed evidence. Clearly Worf is above-average, even for a Klingon in that area, but still, he has displayed it visually on more than one occasion , most notably in DS9's "Let He Who Is Without Sin..." which TheRedFear has described fairly accurately. The most explicit statement I know of for Klingon strength is found in DS9's "Take Me Out to the Holosuite", where both Worf and Dr. Bashir are said to be the only ones on the Niner's baseball team that compare to the physically superior Vulcans:

Sisko: "How are we going to beat the Logicians?"
"They're all Vulcans."
"They're stronger and faster than any one of us... except for Worf and our genetically enhanced Doctor."
But there is more to baseball than physical strength.
It's, uh... it's about courage... and it's also about faith, and it is also about heart, and if there's one thing our Vulcan friends lack, it's heart.
I think we can beat them.
I know we can beat them. "

So we can at least assume that a Klingon is generally stronger than a human on average, but possibly not quite as strong as a Vulcan.
-Mike

[TheRedFear]

Problem is that quote is kinda confusing. Look at how Worf Manhandled Bashir when he thought Bashir was dishonor Jadzia by trying to court Ezri.

That made it fairly apparent that superstrength was not part of Bashir's Augment package. Look at ENT for the difference between Bashir and a full fledged Augment. Two Augments on Enterprise wiped out the crew of a Klingon Bird of Prey seemingly with ease, and took the first half dozen or so with their bare hands. Whereas Bashir couldn't even push Worf's hand off him. Then, there's the fact that when Bashir was describing his augmentations, all he said was his Hand/Eye coordination, visual acuity, and intellect was enhanced. He made no mention of strength or speed or hearing or the other nifty Augment bonuses, and the way Worf manhandled him would seem to back that up.

That doesn't mesh well with Sisko's statement about Bashir on the baseball team. Unless he was only referencing Bashir's superior Hand/Eye, which I suppose would at least make him an highly accurate Hitter, if not a terribly strong one. And if Sisko's comment about Bashir was not terribly spot on, it raises room for doubt about how much weight you can put in his comment on Worf made with the same breath.


Here's what I suspect. I think, originally Klingons were meant to be the same as humans physically. Somewhere along the line, people just started assuming Klingons must be super strong(probably around the time they started writing Worf like he was half a heartbeat away from licking his crotch at any given moment), and that misconception was picked up by other writers who just assumed it was a given and before you know it, it was done often enough that it could now be considered canon, if somewhat retroactive canon.

It's curious though. Even though everybody knows Vulcans are stronger than humans, they rarely skip an oppurtunity to remind us with an explicit, flat out, no-room-for-doubt declaration of such. Yet they never do that for Klingons. If ever I acheive my dream of being allowed to write a series of canon Novels, I'd make sure to flat out explicitly declare Klingon mega strength at least once, to silence the naysayers.

[Praeothmin]

TheRedFear wrote:

That's certainly one of the better examples, yes, but how many times have you seen Arnold Swarzenegger or Sylvester Stallone or Vin Deisal or other human muscly guys do something similar?

In movies where their strength was toted as being well above oridnary humans?
Plenty of times. Heck, they were even stronger then guys their sixe.
And don't forget we talk about movies where Stallone or Schwarzzy were firing M-60s 1-handed without much recoil.

But you specifically said earlier:

But in theory, another Human the same size as him would be just as strong.

You never mentioned movie heroes, but humans in general, which incloined me to believe you were thinking of real life, thus my reply.

For another example of Klingon strength, look at ST III.
Kruge manhandles kirk physically without any problems, and it's only Kirks fighting prowess, and the fact that the ledge where Kruge was standing fell, that allowed him to win...

[Mike DiCenso]

TheRedFear wrote:
That made it fairly apparent that superstrength was not part of Bashir's Augment package. Look at ENT for the difference between Bashir and a full fledged Augment. Two Augments on Enterprise wiped out the crew of a Klingon Bird of Prey seemingly with ease, and took the first half dozen or so with their bare hands. Whereas Bashir couldn't even push Worf's hand off him. Then, there's the fact that when Bashir was describing his augmentations, all he said was his Hand/Eye coordination, visual acuity, and intellect was enhanced. He made no mention of strength or speed or hearing or the other nifty Augment bonuses, and the way Worf manhandled him would seem to back that up.

That presumes that the Augment virus seen in "Divergence" and "Affliction" did not also result in some Klingons getting superior strength, especially if the diease was halted at the second stage, rather than the first stage. Furthermore, if Klingons are 2-3 times stronger than a normal human, they are still nearly a third again weaker than an Augment since an Augment is stated to be 5 times stronger than a normal human.

That doesn't mesh well with Sisko's statement about Bashir on the baseball team. Unless he was only referencing Bashir's superior Hand/Eye, which I suppose would at least make him an highly accurate Hitter, if not a terribly strong one. And if Sisko's comment about Bashir was not terribly spot on, it raises room for doubt about how much weight you can put in his comment on Worf made with the same breath.

We already know that Bashir has excellent hearing in addition to superior hand-eye coordination, so Siko is not wrong there when he makes that statement. He's just lumping two people on the team together who have physical attributes comparable to the Vulcans.
-Mike

[TheRedFear]

Double Posted by accident.

[TheRedFear]

TheRedFear wrote:
That made it fairly apparent that superstrength was not part of Bashir's Augment package. Look at ENT for the difference between Bashir and a full fledged Augment. Two Augments on Enterprise wiped out the crew of a Klingon Bird of Prey seemingly with ease, and took the first half dozen or so with their bare hands. Whereas Bashir couldn't even push Worf's hand off him. Then, there's the fact that when Bashir was describing his augmentations, all he said was his Hand/Eye coordination, visual acuity, and intellect was enhanced. He made no mention of strength or speed or hearing or the other nifty Augment bonuses, and the way Worf manhandled him would seem to back that up.

That presumes that the Augment virus seen in "Divergence" and "Affliction" did not also result in some Klingons getting superior strength, especially if the diease was halted at the second stage, rather than the first stage. Furthermore, if Klingons are 2-3 times stronger than a normal human, they are still nearly a third again weaker than an Augment since an Augment is stated to be 5 times stronger than a normal human.

That doesn't mesh well with Sisko's statement about Bashir on the baseball team. Unless he was only referencing Bashir's superior Hand/Eye, which I suppose would at least make him an highly accurate Hitter, if not a terribly strong one. And if Sisko's comment about Bashir was not terribly spot on, it raises room for doubt about how much weight you can put in his comment on Worf made with the same breath.

We already know that Bashir has excellent hearing in addition to superior hand-eye coordination, so Siko is not wrong there when he makes that statement. He's just lumping two people on the team together who have physical attributes comparable to the Vulcans.-Mike

I'm pretty sure they explicitly said the Klingon Augment disease was stopped at the cosmetic stage, BEFORE any physical boosts beyond what they may(or may not) already have could kick in.

And Bashir's hearing might have been included in his list of Augmentations he rattled off. I don't recall verbatim every single item he listed as augmented. I just recall he did NOT list strength as one of his boosts. And sisko's comment about there being more to baseball than strength would seem to indicate the writer of that episode slipped up a bit in having Sisko make a comment that implied Bashir was as strong as a Vulcan(Do note that if Bashir indeed had Augment strength, he'd actually be a good bit stronger than a Vulcan). Since Sisko implied with the same breath that Worf was as well, it's comment you have to take with a grain of salt.

I havn't seen STIII in ages so will take your word for it. Like I said, i'm inclined to beleive Klingons do have some measure of mega strength. I'd just like to see an explicit, canon, flat out declaration of it.

They beat us over the head with explicit flat out declarations of Vulcan mega strength every damn chance they get. Is it really that much trouble to do it just ONCE for Klingons? lol

[Mike DiCenso]

The disease was stopped in the first stages in all but a handful of those infected. Antaak's son, Marab, along with several others in his unit, was in the late stages of the disease, but survived, and so could have passed on some of the super-strength to their children.
-Mike

[TheRedFear]

Perhaps, but unless they started a rigorous breeding program that would have had to become an incestuous breeding program after a generation or two, it seems terribly unlikely that any of those traits survived for more than a couple of generations. The blood would be too diluted.

And even then they'd be traits localized within specific Klingon Houses and Family lines. Houses that would either A) Be amongst the Great Houses of the Council now, or B) Were wiped out by the other Houses at some point, who feared the superior genetics floating around in these Houses.

Though, if, by some fluke of Genealogy, some of those augment characteristics survived and somehow made it into Gowron, it would certainly explain how such a weasly little politician came so surprisingly close to defeating Worf ;p

[Cpl Kendall]

They could have started their own Augment program using those infected as a base.

*Edit: and by that I mean using both breeding and cloning and use of stem cells.

[Mike DiCenso]

There were millions of Klingons infected across several planets. It's likely out of those millions that at least some thousands or even hundreds of thousands had the disease halted in the second stage.
-Mike

[Socar]

Can someone confirm something for me?

The other day on TV, they were broadcasting the Voyager episode "Unimatrix Zero" (part 2 I believe). Now at some point, after Janeway, Tuvok and B'Elanna get assimilated, and they've regained control of themselves, they go down to the core room or whatever to insert the virus or whatever they were doing. Now if you remember, Tuvok was starting to succumb to the influence of the Collective, and eventually he gets so close that he tells Janeway to deactivate him. She attempts to, except all of a sudden a shield appears over the section of Tuvok that she tries to reach to and blocks her hand. The scene happened really quickly, so I didn't get a really good look at what happened.

Can someone who has the episode recorded perhaps check this out for me? I tried to use TrekCore.com but they didn't have a screenshot of this part.

[2046]

There was a yellow flash which painfully repulsed Janeway's hand, but sparklies extended out far beyond normal drone-shield distance. Ergo it would seem to have been a forcefield within the cube corridor.

Given that Tuvok was requesting her help and that the Queen was watching the festivities, this is not surprising.

It is worth noting, however, that this forcefield appeared completely different than the one which repulsed Worf in BoBW. A comparison may be of interest.

[Mike DiCenso]

The most simple thing is that changes in the Borg force fields are like the changes seen since ST:FC onward with the cube ships (their interiors) and the drones themselves; it is an upgrade plain and simple.
-Mike