War crimes by US troops

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sonofccn
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Post by sonofccn » Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:22 pm

I know that they don't show such things in the U.S. That's the problem with self-censorship and maybe why I couldn't find an English reportage of that incident.
The US media take any and all shots at our armed forces. Thier is no evil fascit censership going on, but thats an argument for another day.

You can see the reportage here. But it is in German. You have to trust me that they say what I say that thay say it - or you have to find someone you trust to translate it for you.
Oh I trust you. If you say it says that it says that. I just don't trust them.
The pilot has seen that the person was wounded. He asked if he should kill the wounded. The answer via radio: Kill him. He has done it: He has killed a wounded person, who was not fit for action. According to the Geneva Convention that's murder - even if it wouldn't have been a civilian.
That is correct I do believe and here atleast I do agree. A wounded man was shot to death. Still I would need to know the details on why he needed to be killed. Please don't state evil American agression as the answer. Anyway it's not a warcrime officaly because the enemy is not protect by the Geneva conviction. They don't quaillfy, all that stuff about not wearing uniforms and junk.
I know that sometimes in a war also civilians are killed
More like all of them.
But - as Bush has said - the war in Iraq is over
That war is over,but that doesn't stop the guys from trying to blow junk up. So thier is a war going on.
But often enough the American forces show that they don't care if they kill civilians and there are many incidents in which they kill civilians without any need.
I would need to see footage of that going on, not a web artical saying they do,and a lot more then thirty seconds of night footage.
Don't compare Hussein with Hitler
Well that isn't needed for my question, I simply picked a name of a man regarded as evil and wiht plans for global domination. I guess I could have said stalin but Hitler has better street cred. However both Hussein and hitler were mass murdering despots so thier not that dissimilar.
That's inappropriate
??? You compare Bush to Hussein and infact say he worse IIRC, but comparing one brutal thug to another is inappropriate? The biggest differnce between them is one we let go on and on until he was a major threat. The other we kept nipping in the bud, permantly now.
And I have no problem with political and diplomatical sanctions
Niether do I, when they work. They rarely have an effect however. I'm not saying War should byour first responce, but it has to be on the table.
And if it is really necessary - and the U.N. decides so - a war is still a possibility
The first part I agree with. One should always try diplomacy first. The second however I don't understand. Why in the *bleeping* hell does the UN decide when to go to war? You realise atleast half the guys in thier are brutal despotic thugs right? Hell thier human rights commetie is a living joke. Plus they never declare war. They pose sanction after sanction and form commeties and push a lot of paperwork around but thats it. However if you prefer feel good motions over getting the job done knock yourself out.
But it was neither necessary nor has the U.N. permited that war.
From our point of view it was necessary and the UN seemed more interested in oil for castle programs and having it's members sell military hardware to Iraq then fixing the problem.

And one has to be honest: That war wasn't done because Hussein has killed his own people.
True, thier are plenty of crummy regimes out thier, but it doesn't mean freeing the people wasn't a good thing.
And the war wasn't done because the American government was concerned that he could get weapons of mass destruction
Actually that has been a fear of the US since well after the first gulf war. So yes atleast part of the reason was that we believed he had them.
the official reason they have given for the "pre-emptive" attack although they have known that that is rubbish
Actually just about every intel agency at the time, including those from countires trying to stop the war, agreed he had WMDs. We also found IIRC gas cansisers (eith toxic gas in them)which was forbiden under treaty I believe. Not what we were looking for but proof he broke the treaty.
and not allowed according to international law
Which in thise case was a very stupid law that shouldn't exist.
And one shouldn't be hypocritical. It isn't right to demonize one person for things he has done when he was still a friend and the things he has done were approved then.
That my friend is life. We said nice things about the soviets during WWII despite the fact they were as bad if not worse then the Nazis because we had a common enemy. I have no problem working along side, even helping lesser evil as along as we are fighting the greater evil. You have to pick your battles, and we can't invade every country on Earth can we? :)
Not the Iraq has attacked the U.S. nor has it supported terrorism.
Iraq did not attack the us directly, that comment was directed twoards afgan, but anyway he did attack US personal which is grounds for war. Second he used to pay for kids to go blow themselves up in Israil I call that terrorism. Then thier was the training camps and providing shelter to the odd terrorist or two.
And your right for self-defence is over when the attack is over. Self-defence is only to ward off an attack. It's not a justification to do what you have wanted to do a long time ago if it goes farther than it is necessary to ward off an attack.
Our right to self-defence is over when the threat is over. not a mere attack. Nor do we have to sit on the defensive and wait for the enemy we know will attack us to strike. We simply went to them. As to something we wanted to do for a long time, what? Invade Iraq? Why the hell did we want that? Do you think we wanted three or four thousand dead American soldiers? To waste billions blowing up then rebuilding a country? We did not want this. We finaly after a decade of sloth responded to a guy who was asking for it. We should be thanked for removing a bit of filth from the world, instead we get this.
That's irrelevant for the question if the wars Bush has started were legal.
?The fact the wars were legal is irreleveant to the question of if the wars was legal?
Fact is that they were illegal and that he has known it. 9/11 can not justify the wars of aggression in Afghanistan or Iraq.
Uh we demanded bin ladin, they refuse to give him to us, so we went in. Granted we didn't wait around for the UN seal of approval, but we wanted to capture him before he died of old age. That was all part of responce to the attack on US soil directly part of the self defense you grant. As to Iraq I pointed out he broke the rules, any one of which the treaty said we could go back in and finish the job. really only a continution of the war before, so unless that one also was illegal it's covered.
These wars have violated the law of nations. That's a fact - and not merely an opinion.
If defending one's nation is violation of the law, well then maybe the law should be reviewed. It could have been writen under a false assumption like say the UN is a morally superior force then say the US.

I mean what happens if thier is a brutal, tyrant with dreams of global domination, but the Un refuses to go to war for whatever reason. WOuld you sleep better at night allowing things to escalate until they reach the boiling point and we have to fight him on his terms? Or would you advocate nipping the problem in the bud despite UN objections. I eagerl await your responce.

Me, I've learn from history. Despots need to be hit hard and fast as soon as possible. WWII would have been a footnote if we had simply gone to war back in 1934 or 36 when Hitler started breaking the treaties. Instead we talked peace and end up with one of the most brutal wars , and left Europe in ruins.

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Post by Praeothmin » Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:33 pm

W.I.L.G.A wrote:
Not the Iraq has attacked the U.S. nor has it supported terrorism.
Which just shows the Hypocrisy in this War.
We know for a fact that many terrorists are supported by Saudi Arabia.
Yet, we have never heard once Bush theaten them if they continued to support terrorism.
Israël sometimes use terrorist tactics, and completely disregard human life in many occasions, yet they are regarded as stauch allies by the USA.

If Bush truly wanted to fight terrorism, if he truly wanted justice for the 9/11 horror, then why doesn't he punish those who harbor terrorists?

Because, as Irak once was, those states are allies for the moment.
Hussein hasn't changed in the last 10 years.
He was always a despot, and always a danger to his people, and yet, he was a friend of the US for a long time.

So what has changed?
I guess he made a tempting target because he was no longer an ally, and he was an easy (or so the US thought) target.
This War was done, IMO, so that the United states didn't lose face, so that they could still say "We are the mightiest country in this world, and no one can attack us without being punished".

You know the attack came from the Middle-East (I don't believe in a US conspiracy), but who are you going to attack?
Not your allies.
So why not attack an old ally that has become a thorn in our sides, in fatc because of our old aquaintance?
By attacking Saddam, the US sent the message that they no longer supported Saddam's way of ruling.

That is, of course, only my opinion based on all I've read in the past concerning these events.

That being said, W.I.L.G.A., you shouldn't generalize when talking about US soldiers.
I'm pretty sure a lot of them do respect the Iraqi people, and do care who they shoot at.
But when you're in a hostile country, where an enemy can appear at any corner, the best way to get out of there alive is to follow orders, shoot first and ask questions later.

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Post by Cpl Kendall » Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:38 pm

sonofccn wrote:That is correct I do believe and here atleast I do agree. A wounded man was shot to death. Still I would need to know the details on why he needed to be killed. Please don't state evil American agression as the answer. Anyway it's not a warcrime officaly because the enemy is not protect by the Geneva conviction. They don't quaillfy, all that stuff about not wearing uniforms and junk.
I'm afraid you are in error. I have attended many briefings on the Geneva Conventions in my career and they all state the same thing. Combatants that don't wear a distinctive emblem, carry their arms openly and have an ID card are to be treated as criminals and turned over to the justice system for detention and trial. You can hold them until such time as this becomes possible but it is to be done at the soonest possible time. Therefore this "unlawful combatant" language used by the Bush Administration is pure bunk and the Gitmo detention camp is also illegal. The detainees should be held in civilian jails and tried in the civialian court system or turned over to their mother nations or the nations they were captured in for trial.

sonofccn
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Post by sonofccn » Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:51 pm

Cpl Kendall wrote:I'm afraid you are in error. I have attended many briefings on the Geneva Conventions in my career and they all state the same thing. Combatants that don't wear a distinctive emblem, carry their arms openly and have an ID card are to be treated as criminals and turned over to the justice system for detention and trial. You can hold them until such time as this becomes possible but it is to be done at the soonest possible time. Therefore this "unlawful combatant" language used by the Bush Administration is pure bunk and the Gitmo detention camp is also illegal. The detainees should be held in civilian jails and tried in the civialian court system or turned over to their mother nations or the nations they were captured in for trial.
Interesting, so could you provide a link to where in the Geneva convention it says this needs to be so? I've never seen an excerpts or anything that says that.

As to handing over terriorists to civilian courts, that is silly. They are captured enemy soldiers, if refusing to play by the rules of war, they do not need a lawyer.

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Post by sonofccn » Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:10 pm

Praeothmin wrote:Which just shows the Hypocrisy in this War.
I wouldn't say in this war, I would say in life. It's easier to overlook your friends trangressions then it is your enemies. I don't like it anymore then you do, but what else can you do but learn to live with it?
Praeothmin wrote:Israël sometimes use terrorist tactics, and completely disregard human life in many occasions, yet they are regarded as stauch allies by the USA
While Israel is far from a saint, cut them some slack. There is nothing they have done that hasn't been done to them a hundred fold. Besides they are a lot better then the alternative.
Praeothmin wrote:That being said, W.I.L.G.A., you shouldn't generalize when talking about US soldiers.
Well that is my main complaint in regards to W.I.L.G.A. post. I don't mind that he disagrees with Bush or thinks we are wasting our time. I really just don't like people calling American soldiers criminals and worse.

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Post by Cpl Kendall » Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:16 pm

Geneva Conventions

Go to the third convention, you have to search through it manually but I found this within the first few paragraphs:
Should any doubt arise as to whether persons, having committed a belligerent act and having fallen into the hands of the enemy, belong to any of the categories enumerated in Article 4, such persons shall enjoy the protection of the present Convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal.
Persons are entitled to convention protection whether you think they are or not.

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Post by Cpl Kendall » Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:19 pm

sonofccn wrote:
As to handing over terriorists to civilian courts, that is silly. They are captured enemy soldiers, if refusing to play by the rules of war, they do not need a lawyer.
No they are not soldiers. They do not carry an ID card, they do not carry their arms openly and they do not wear a distinctive emblem or uniform. All requirements to be considered soldiers or at least militia under the Geneva Conventions. They are criminals. By depriving them of legal representation, not only are you violating the Conventions but you are damaging the image of the US on the world stage.

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Post by sonofccn » Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:31 pm

Cpl Kendall wrote:Geneva Conventions

Go to the third convention, you have to search through it manually but I found this within the first few paragraphs:
Should any doubt arise as to whether persons, having committed a belligerent act and having fallen into the hands of the enemy, belong to any of the categories enumerated in Article 4, such persons shall enjoy the protection of the present Convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal.
Persons are entitled to convention protection whether you think they are or not.
Actually if I understood it all right they are only protected until we verify they were indeed guys running around out of uniform shooting at us. To verify that we need a competent tribunal. However to the orignal point you brought it up you are correct. By the book the slaggers have rights, and so I conceed that point.

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Post by sonofccn » Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:40 pm

Cpl Kendall wrote:
sonofccn wrote:
As to handing over terriorists to civilian courts, that is silly. They are captured enemy soldiers, if refusing to play by the rules of war, they do not need a lawyer.
No they are not soldiers. They do not carry an ID card, they do not carry their arms openly and they do not wear a distinctive emblem or uniform. All requirements to be considered soldiers or at least militia under the Geneva Conventions. They are criminals. By depriving them of legal representation, not only are you violating the Conventions but you are damaging the image of the US on the world stage.
Criminals engaged in military activities. Calling the criminals put them on the same level as a bank robber or something. I just don't understand why guys not playing by the rules get more rights and protections then normal soldiers. Nor did the convention say they must be treated as such, atleast what i read of it. It said they had basic rights granted any POW until thier status was determined by a tribunal. Unless I'm wrong on my jargon a military tribunal should surfice and if i'm not mistaken we give them that.

As to America's image, its a small price to pay to ensure we win this war.

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Post by Who is like God arbour » Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:47 pm

That being said, W.I.L.G.A., you shouldn't generalize when talking about US soldiers.
As far as I know, I haven't generalized anything.

I have spoken of some soldiers - not all - and the American forces - as an institution.

I don't have seen each and every American Soldiers in Iraq.

And I know that many soldiers don't want to be in Iraq and aren't contented with their situations.

But nevertheless, they are there and some of them do crimes.

I know, sometimes - but even not always - they only follows their orders.

But the German soldiers in the Second World War have also only followed their orders. These orders were - according to the legal positivism - legal. If German soldiers would have refused obedience they would have been prosecuted - and - in war times - executed.

But that hasn't keep the Allies from prosecuting many German soldiers who have only followed orders.

To have followed orders is neither a compurgation nor an exculpation.

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Post by Cpl Kendall » Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:55 pm

sonofccn wrote:Criminals engaged in military activities. Calling the criminals put them on the same level as a bank robber or something. I just don't understand why guys not playing by the rules get more rights and protections then normal soldiers. Nor did the convention say they must be treated as such, atleast what i read of it. It said they had basic rights granted any POW until thier status was determined by a tribunal. Unless I'm wrong on my jargon a military tribunal should surfice and if i'm not mistaken we give them that.

As to America's image, its a small price to pay to ensure we win this war.
Actions taken against your forces by the enemy are automatically assumed to be by lawful forces unless proved otherwise. If there is evidence that shows a captured POW is other than an enemy soldier or militia/partisan than he is declared a criminal by default and is placed in the care of the criminal justice system once the proper process is complete. That process usually consisting of a tribunal.

That is not what happened in the case of the inmates in Gitmo. In some cases you had the Northern Alliance simply handing over detainees for the reward money with no supporting evidence. The detainees have not had the benefit of a tribunal to determine their status and even if they had, they are supposed to be granted POW rights until the tribunal, which does not include being locked up in open air cages 24/7. And if they've had the tribunal which has one of two outcomes: POW status/ Criminal status. Then they should be transfered to a proper POW facility or to a proper penal facility.

This is what has caused the uproar over US actions. Proper procedure in regards to Conventions and rights have not been followed.

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Post by Cpl Kendall » Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:57 pm

Who is like God arbour wrote:
To have followed orders is neither a compurgation nor an exculpation.
In most Western militaries you are obligated to disobey and report illegal and unethical orders.

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Post by Who is like God arbour » Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:16 pm

sonofccn,

the U.S. have written the U.N. charta. They have obligated themself to obey the charta.

And the charta says that the U.S. don't have the right to beginn a war.

The U.N. charta gives only two possible bases for the use of force:
  • self-defence (which may include collective self-defence)
    • and
  • authorisation by the Security Council acting under Chapter VII of the UN Charter.
And there is a very controversial third base for the use of force:
  • exceptionally, to avert overwhelming humanitarian catastrophe.
But even if latter would be accepted, there was no reason why it would be an appropriate basis for action in the circumstances at that time.
    • Self-defense:
      Force may be used in self-defence if there is an actual or imminent threat of an armed attack; the use of force must be necessary, ie the only means of averting an attack; and the force used must be a proportionate response. It is now widely accepted that an imminent armed attack will justify the use of force if the other conditions are met.

      The concept of what is imminent may depend on the circumstances. Different considerations may apply, for example, where the risk is of attack from terrorists sponsored or harboured by a particular State, or where there is a threat of an attack by nuclear weapons.

      However there must be some degree of imminence.

      The USA has been arguing for recognition of a broad doctrine of a right to use force to pre-empt danger in the future. That means more than a right to respond proportionately to an imminent attack.

      But that is not a doctrine which exists or is recognised in international law.
One can lament that the international law is bad or inefficient. But it is there and each state has to obey its rules. Otherwise we would have a global anarchy. And there are efforts to reform the U.N. But these efforts are blockaded by the U.S.

And please tell me, who decides who is a brutal tyrant with dreams of global domination? Hussein didn't have dreams of global domination.

And he was a tyrant not worse than many other african tyrants which are actually friendly with the U.S.
  • I know that the U.S. can't invade each country which is governed by a tyrant. But if they are really annoyed by tyrants, they would at least alter their diplomatic relations to them.
If you look at the yearly reports of amnesty international you will notice that there is nearly no state which isn't listed as a state which violates - deliberately or undeliberately - human rights.

Who decides where is the line?

How many violated human rights are acceptable and how many are not?

How many are necessary to justify a war - in which maybe more people are killed than before?

Is each state authorised to decree such a line?

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Post by Who is like God arbour » Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:20 pm

Cpl Kendall wrote:
Who is like God arbour wrote:
To have followed orders is neither a compurgation nor an exculpation.
In most Western militaries you are obligated to disobey and report illegal and unethical orders.
Correct

And if you follow them, you will be prosecuted

That's the lesson we have learned after - or rather in - the Second World War: To have followed orders is neither a compurgation nor an exculpation.

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Post by sonofccn » Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:29 pm

Cpl Kendall wrote:If there is evidence that shows a captured POW is other than an enemy soldier or militia/partisan than he is declared a criminal by default and is placed in the care of the criminal justice system once the proper process is complete.
Despite the fact that nowhere does it state they must be considered criminals in the conventin I conceed the point. You win.


I am curious however, why does anyone care? We hold the scum of the Earth in gitmo. Not very nice people indeed, and yet certain people demand they have rights. Yet I've never seen those same people openly badmouth the other side that does, far, far worse.
Cpl Kendall wrote:In some cases you had the Northern Alliance simply handing over detainees for the reward money with no supporting evidence.
In this case I fully agree with you that this is wrong. Simply taking any one someone hands over with out evidence is wrong.

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