I think I got everything. Please tell me if i missed something.
Sothis wrote: A lot of combat on Star Trek is fought at close range (not just DS9, though DS9, with large-scale battles, shows this more than most). Whether we like it or not, those examples are as canon as anything we see in any other part of the franchise, and they are very clear in what they depict - short-range fights, and shots missing during those fights. There's also not as much inconsistency between dialogue and visuals as there appears - whilst ranges for Federation ships can be as great as 300,000KM, this doesn't mean such ranges are effective against small or fast targets (especially when there's jamming occurring, such as the jamming the Dominion uses against Federation comms in 'Sacrifice of Angels'.
Sothis wrote: I don't quite follow.
1) Deep Space Nine was limited on resources(time, money, man power, technology for visuals) so they had to cut corners when producing the show. For example this results in ships not having visible shield effects during large. Shield flares were time consuming and relatively expensive to make when showing large numbers of ships so they simply weren't bothered with even if they were suppose to be there
Way of the Warrior is a prime example of visuals not making sense when pared with the dialog. You have talk of closing to point blank range, but the entire fight was shown to be at mere ship lengths apart, and there is no change even though such was stated, and then later the Klingon fleet is shown within Ds9's inner ring while the characters state and act as if the Klingon fleet is still closing on the station. It's a similar problem to Stargate.
I try to find dialog from characters who are suppose to know what they are talking about, and we have no reason to doubt.
2) You seem to be confusing cloaking tactics with open combat, surface ships VS submarines.
In TNG: Hero Worship it is stated that cloaked vessels often attack from less then 3,000 meters
In DS9: The Die is Cast we are told that 500 meters is dangerously close to an exploding ship even with shields up. Any time ships are shown in combat at ranges less then .5 kilometers there is likely a mistake made by the visual effects team.
In TNG: The Wounded we see open combat between uncloaked ships at ranges that are roughly a light second, but it seems that tens of thousands of kilometers is more common.
3) There is always ECM and ECCM in Star Trek battles. Just turning your shields on basically makes you invisible to things like radar and the mark-1 eyeball(TOS: Tomorrow is Yesterday, Voy: Future's End), and then there is the time the Enterprise-D sat in orbitover a planet about to build its fitsy warp drive while down below the natives feared an alien invasion because Riker got hurt(TNG: First Contact).
Star Trek ships are surrounded by all sorts of nasty gravitational distortions aside from the warp field(Star Trek: Generations, Voy: Coda). Gravity is used in everything from thrusters to shields, to navigational deflectors.
Sothis wrote: In the battles in 'Way of the Warrior' and 'Call to Arms', none of the attacking ships are more than a few KM away, yet, in both episodes, we see what can only be described as misses. In 'Call to Arms', at one stage several Jem'Hadar attack ships are heading in a straight-line for the station, and the station manages to miss with phaser fire.
1)
The Mark-01 human eye is easily fooled by Star Trek ECM, and its effective range is far shorter then the effective range of the weapons. You claim there are misses in Way of the Warrior, but that requires a contradiction with the dialog do to the Klingon fleet still arriving even when they are buzzing the inner ring.
2)Way of the warrior
The ships are tiny when compared to the distances that combat can take place at. You can't show there aren't ships just far enough to be too far to see.
Stock footage and contradictions with dialog make this suspect. Ships within .5 kilometers each other is a visual effects mistake.
3) Call to Arms
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkQizwbq7Rs
Visual effects mistake one 0:44
you have ships that are seemingly well within .5 kilometers of each other.
Visual effects mistake two 2:06
No shields on the starships
How large is Deep Space Nine because the attacking fleet isn't in range? Both Dominion and Cardassian ships have effective ranges measured in hundreds of kilometers for their beam weapons.
http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ms_504.jpg
Sothis wrote: Being able to target one planet from another (a planet is a very large, relatively-slow moving object) is not indicative of being able to do the same thing to a ship.
It's more being able to target starfleet academy with an FTL particle beam from Mars while also being able to target ships such as the NX-01.. It just barely missed the NX-01.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Verteron_array
Sothis wrote: There's no visual evidence to support this in combat scenes. In First Contact, Federation ships meander lazily around the languid Borg cube, and the ships in 'Sacrifice of Angels' do not zip quickly past one another (there are several stationary Cardassian vessels that appear to be doing nothing, apart from looking pretty for other ships to fly past).
I was talking about the Phoenix and to a lesser degree the the Enterprise-E which easily out accelerated the Phoenix. The Phoenix(a barely working prototype) was just meandering like those ships that fought the cube, but it was stated to be traveling at high percentages of the speed of light. Just before going to warp they are possible traveling at the speed of light.
Franchise: Star Trek
Series: Movie
Title: First Contact wrote:
LAFORGE: Plasma injectors are on-line. Everything's looking good. I think we're ready.
RIKER: They should be out there right now. We better break the warp barrier in the next five minutes if we're going to get their attention.
LAFORGE: Main cells are charged and ready.
RIKER: Let's do it.
COCHRANE: Engage.
LAFORGE: Warp field is looking good. Structural integrity is holding.
RIKER: Speed, twenty thousand kilometres per second.
COCHRANE: Sweet Jesus!
(Cochrane has spotted the Enterprise in orbit)
RIKER: Relax, Doctor. I'm sure they're just here to give us a send-off.
+++++
RIKER: Thirty seconds to warp threshold. ...Approaching light-speed.
COCHRANE: We're at critical velocity.
1 Light Second = 299792.458 km
1 Minute = 60 Seconds
Starting Velocity: 20,000 km per second
Ending Velocity: 299792.458 km per second
Time Spent Accelerating: A maximum of 5 minutes
The Phoenix's Average Rate of Acceleration
299792.458-20000=279792.458
279792.458/300=932.641526667
Average Rate of Acceleration: 932.641526667 kilometers per second
Note 1:
It is debatable if the Phoenix reach the speed of light before going to warp, but I used the speed of light because it simplified the math, and they say they were at least traveling near the speed of light.
Note 2:
The heavily damaged Enterprise-E seems to have been able to easily keep up with or possibly out accelerate the Phoenix.
Sothis wrote: As I understand it, the 97,000 reference comes from the NCC reg of a ship from Star Trek Online, so Idazmi7 hasn't even used canon material for that reference.
This is why I stated there was not enough information on the topic to be sure of anything.
Sothis wrote: Then of course, there's the detail about registrations not always being re-used after ships are destroyed or decommissioned. Famous ships (like the Enterprise) might get their prefix recycled - this doesn't mean they all do.
I'm not aware of any source that states they don't always recycle the numbers. We simply don't know.
Sothis wrote: What is your source for Voyager having a damaged warp core?
Here you go:
Franchise: Star Trek
Series: Voyager
Season: 01
Episode: 01
Title: Caretaker wrote: CAREY [OC]: Engineering to Bridge. We have some severe damage. The Chief's dead. Possibility of a warp core breach.
JANEWAY: Secure all engineering systems. I'm on my way.
Franchise: Star Trek
Series: Voyager
Season: 01
Episode: 01
Title: Caretaker wrote: COMPUTER: Warning. Warp core microfracture. Breach imminent.
JANEWAY: What's the warp core pressure?
CAREY: Twenty one hundred kilopascals.
JANEWAY: Lock down the magnetic constrictors.
CAREY: If we lock them down at these pressure levels, we might not be able to reinitialise the dilithium reaction.
COMPUTER: Warning. Warp core microfracture. Breach imminent.
JANEWAY: We don't have a choice. We've got to get the reaction rate down before we try to seal it.
For as often as this episode is quote, I'm not sure why this is ignored. Voyager is badly damaged in the first episode, and it is unlikely it is ever at 100% during the series.
Sothis wrote: And as I have since pointed out to 2046, none of the ships in the six Saga films appear restricted to hyperlanes, and nor are they even referred to.
Sothis wrote: Where in any of these films are hyperlanes even mentioned?
There are seven Star Wars movies and an eighth coming out even if the Clone Wars animated movie was basically a three part television episode. Just because no one talks about hyperlanes in Episode 1 through 6 does not mean they aren't implied.
The plot of the animated clone wars movie hinges on hyperlanes not being easy to map or go off of. The CIS wouldn't be able to mine hyperlanes if they weren't narrow, and the Republic could just go around if you could easily travel off the lanes.
In episode 1 the royal yacht has to charge the Trade Federation blockade. If you could easily enter and leave hyperspace at any point in space then charging the fleet is pointless and suicidal.
In Episode 2 you have an area called The Rishi maze.
In Episode 4, Han flies in a straight line while being chased by a stardestroyer. This is insane unless Han has to get to a certain location in space to enter hyperspace.
In Episode 5 Vader plans to blockade Hoth with maybe 40 Stardesroyers. Such a blockade is impossible unless number of entrances and exits to the Hoth system is a small number. Why do the Rebels charge the Stardestroyer blockade if they have a choice, and why are most of the Stardestroyers in such a close formation if hyperlanes aren't an issue.
In Episode 6 the Empire knows exactly where the Rebel fleet will come out of hyperspace implying that there are a limited number of entrances to the Endor system. The Empires plan falls apart if any of the Rebels arrive from a different direction.
Sothis wrote: A lot of this though, is Idazmi7 trying to come up with excuses to inflate Federation fleet strength, and he times himself into knots trying to.
I don't see a connection?
Sothis wrote: He needs to come up with a reason for the Federation to have such a vast fleet, yet be easily threatened by comparatively few Dominion ships (and be vastly outgunned by the Dominion too).
The Federation is 8,000 long, and engages in lots of scientific exploration as well as police, military, and diplomatic duties, mapping.
Most Starfleet vessels would logically be on the edges of the Federation, or outside it normally.
Sothis wrote: By the time the war started, the Federation had resolved the shield issue, so it's more likely Idazmi7 was greatly over-stating fleet strength. Remember, the 112 ships of the 7th Fleet were seen as making an important offensive move against the Dominion in 'A Time to Stand', and to the Dominion, pulling together a fleet of over 1200 ships to stop the Federation in 'Sacrifice of Angels' was seen as putting together a large force. To both sides, the 2800 reinforcements due to come through the wormhole were seen as a game-changer - to the Federation and the Klingons, those reinforcements spelled destruction.
It's conceivable that as the war wore on, both sides steadily built up their forces, which might, come the events of the second half of season 7, lead to there being roughly 10,000 ships a piece (though all sides could have boosted their numbers by refitting old ships and sending them into battle - quicker than building all of them from scratch).
1) I seem to recall hearing talk of heavy losses on the Federation's side so I'd assume the Federation fleet was much larger then it was by the time we hear about.
The Breen energy damping weapon and the Dominion's ability to replace losses were the real problem.
2) Building ships doesn't actually seem to take all that long. It seems like a Galaxy Class takes about a year at most, and that seems to be the for the first batch.
Given there were Galaxy Wings serving in the war Dominion war it seems the Federation rather liked the Galaxy Class and built a rather large number of then once they worked the bugs out.
Sothis wrote: Yet the original point I was making here, is that Idazmi7 was arguing for a massive firepower advantage for the Dominion - an advantage that doesn't exist.
That is true.
Sothis wrote: So they do (or at least shuttles do). Cargo ships and transports though, would most likely have their own registries.
The cargo ships are likely civil craft most of the time.
Sothis wrote: We see the Borg use precisely one type of beam weapon in the show, that was first described as a laser, and never redefined since. In the absence of other data, what else should they be regarded as?
Nope, we see the borg use at least three different beam, and at least one pulse weapon, and there is no reason the borg can't quickly grow new and different weapons on the fly if it wants to.
Borg Tractor Beam
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:US ... g_cube.jpg
Borg Laser(used on naked hull)
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:Bo ... g_beam.jpg
Unknown Beam used on a future tech upgraded Voyager when other stuff hadn't worked
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:Bo ... oyager.jpg
Borg Pulse weapon
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:Bo ... alizer.jpg
Sothis wrote: What proof is there that turbolasers are anything remotely like the lasers in 'The Outrageous Okuna'? And what proof is there from 'TOO' that any laser, regardless of power, is useless against Federation shields?
You appear to not understand my point.
NAVIGATIONAL DEFLECTOR
Franchise: Star Trek
Series: Voyager
Season:
Episode:
Title: Year of Hell Part 1 wrote: JANEWAY: Engines.
TORRES: I'm doing my best.
KIM: Captain, with the deflector down those micro-meteoroids are beginning to erode the hull.
JANEWAY: Emergency power to the deflector.
TUVOK: None available.
JANEWAY: I'll be in Deflector control.
TUVOK: Captain. That entire section has been designated hazard level four.
JANEWAY: I know.
Franchise: Star Trek
Series: Enterprise
Season: 1
Episode: 1
Title: Broken Bow wrote: REED: Pardon me, but if I don't realign the deflector, the first grain of space dust we come across will blow a hole through this ship the size of your fist.
HOW NAVIGATIONAL DEFLECTORS WORK
Franchise: Star Trek
Series: The Next Generation
Season: 5
Episode: 20
Title: Cost of Living wrote: PICARD: Activate a deflector dish. If we project a particle beam, we may be able to produce a disruptive nuclear effect within the core.
WORF: Aye, sir.
DATA: Impact in seventeen seconds.
WORF: Particle beam activated. The target has been destroyed, Captain.
Franchise: Star Trek
Series: Voyager
Season: 4
Episode: 1
Title: Scorpion Part 2 wrote: KIM: It looks like the Borg have accessed deflector control. They're trying to realign the emitters.
CHAKOTAY: Shut them out.
KIM: They've bypassed security protocols.
(A green beam is emitted from the deflector dish.)
TORRES: We're emitting a resonant gravitation beam. It's creating another singularity.
CHAKOTAY: Reverse course.
PARIS: We're fighting intense gravimetric distortion. I can't break free.
A Navigational Deflector in Star Trek clears a path for the ship so that the ship does not run into things like photons, protons, electron, space dust, etc while traveling near or faster then the speed of light. If they try to use high Impulse factors or warp without a working Navigational Deflector, the ship will at best be sandblasted to peaces. This means the Star Trek starships should be and are stated to be immune to a large number of mundane real world weapons so long as the Navigational Deflector or the shields are working because the attack simply never hits the starship.
THE QUESTION I WAS ASKING
You are assuming that a turbolaser or any other Star Wars weapon for that matter, can get through a navigational deflector without evidence. WHy should we assume a turbolaser can get through aStar Trek Navigational Deflector when there seems to be nothing comparable to a Star Trek type Navigational Deflector in Star Wars?
Sothis wrote: Where is stated the Runabouts received upgrades? And even if they did, should we assume this means they are suddenly as effective as a dedicated warship like a Jem'Hadar fighter?
A Danube is at a great disadvantage, but if you know where to shoot, and you are a skilled pilot it can be done in a one on one fight as seen in "Treachery, Faith and the great river", but fights like that are rare because Dominion fighters are normally deployed in threes.
Here is all the quotes you're asking for:
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... f=8&t=6518
Sothis wrote: Again, not quite following - which part of this argument are you addressing?
The recycling of the registry numbers. New numbers for every new ship, but never using the old numbers will lead to insanely large numbers and other problems fleet sizes.
Not recycling ship names I can see though.
Sothis wrote: And yet, with such a large fleet, the Federation would eventually be able to get reinforcements in to counter the Dominion. There was not even the suggestion of this, nor has there ever been the suggestion the Federation fleet is dispersed to such a degree.
Warp isn't as slow as you seem to think. Ship regularly travel tens of thousands of light years in weeks to months in Star Trek as shown in "TNG: The Chase". Really the fleet would be back within the first year of the Dominion War.
Sothis wrote:Which episode does this take place in?
TOS: A Taste of Armageddon
Yield: Decibels eighteen to the twelfth power
TOS: The Doomsday Machine
Yield: Unknown, but it was carving up planets and eating them in days at most, and it rendered antimatter nonreactive so the beam might as well have been composed of normal matter
Voyager hit with about an 8th of a planet killer beam
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8HccXIseTE
Sothis wrote: Anti-shield weapons are one thing, but the weapon in 'Survivors' still had a measurable effect on the Enterprise's shields, that was quite specific. Low power shots had no effect, then later, the Husnock ship fired two more powerful bursts that collapsed the shields. Increased power to 600GW = shield failure. Key word being power.
1) No, nothing concerning weapons in TNG: The Survivors makes sense or is certain. Even at the end of the episode Picard isn't sure what happened
Franchise: Star Trek
Series: The Next Generation
Season: 3
Episode: 3
Title: The Survivors wrote: WORF: The vessel is firing jacketed streams of positrons and antiprotons. Equivalent firepower, forty megawatts. Shields are holding. (Boom, boom) Again, forty megawatts. No damage.
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ors147.jpg
Franchise: Star Trek
Series: The Next Generation
Season: 3
Episode: 3
Title: The Survivors wrote: WORF: Shields are down. Captain, they hit us with four hundred gigawatts of particle energy.
PICARD: Damage?
WORF: Superficial, but I'm having trouble reassembling the shields. (another hit) Shields down. There is thermal damage to the hull.
DATA: The warship is capable of striking us with far more powerful bursts.
Why is "EQUIVALENT FIREPOWER" first stated, and then
"PARTICLE ENERGY later? Particle energy would be a measurement of a single particle, and as I understand it the measurement should not be in watts.
2) You can't show that the pulse fired from the non-exsistent ship brought down the shields or that the shields were brought down. All we know is that a powerful god like being with vast matter, energy, and mental manipulation powers wants to scare the Enterprise-D away.
3) You already admitted that yield can be irrelevant to dealing with the shields, but if what happened in The Survivors was real, why don't we see it done again by a group like the borg?
4) We know the antimatter wasn't what brought down the shields because we see more powerful antimatter beams hit Starfleet shields without causing similar effects, and yet you are using the yield from the antimatter as if it means something while ignoring the unknowns which are the relevant parts.
Sothis wrote: I assume by ROB you're referring to the being in 'Survivors', but his influence/creation of the Husnock ship has no bearing on what the Enterprise's sensors were telling the crew - and they told Worf in very specific terms.
1) ROB stands for Random Omnipotent Being. It's a catchall for godlike being.
2) Kevin was able to fool the Enterprise-D's sensors repeatedly. There is no reason to think there was a ship weather or not Kevin was telling the truth about the Husnock.
If Kevin was truthful about what he did then there can't have been a Husnock ship do to the fact he erased then from history.
If Kevin lied then there was never a Husnock to begin with, and therefore no ship.
3) You know we are only given data on the antimatter, but we know the Enterprise-D can shoot antimatter yet can do what Kevin did. This means the stated numbers have nothing to do with what brought down the shield.
Sothis wrote: What they demonstrate is not even close to the claimed possible feats.
I'm really confused by what you mean by this. What they demonstrate in TNG: Inheritance is exactly what they state they are planning on doing, and they do it on screen. There is no disputing this, and it is perfectly in line with a number of other events such as Encounter At Farpoint.
I now that if you look, you will find a number of threads here on the topic, or you could start a new thread by asking questions.
Sothis wrote: Perhaps I have this episode mixed up with 'Inheritance'. In any event, one of these episodes shows clear daylight above the people beamed into the hole, and no sign of the intense energy required to drill (any lingering heat would have been lethal to anyone beaming down, which suggests a chain-reaction method).
1) TNG: Inheritance shows a blue/white light at what may or may not be the top of the drilled hole, but we don't know the shape of the drilled hole, we don't know if they placed something that glows in the hole, but it could also be a mistake by the visual effects crew as those happen.
For the crew to be wrong about how far they were drilling requires a level of incompetence and ignorance that would make doing anything impossible.
2) In TNG: Inheritance they had to wait for the chamber to cool do to the phaser beam heating it.. The temperature rose by roughly 300 degrees Celsius in just a few seconds..
Sothis wrote: 'Inheritance' features them drilling a two-metre wide hole and managing to drill 1km every 2.5 seconds. At that rate, assuming the core of this planet is as deep as earth's core is (2890KM to the outer core), it would take 2 hours to drill to the core. The Enterprise clearly wasn't drilling for two hours, so it could not have drilled to the core.
1) How do you arrive at any of these numbers?
2) They're rather specific as to how far down they are planning to drill into the M-Class planet:
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... nce009.jpg
I would suggest you adjust your figures to match.
Sothis wrote: Even if it did, it didn't 'implode' the mantle, it was trying to kick-start some sort of chain reaction to keep the core warm. This is not the same as destructive force.
They planned on melting the mantle of a M-Class planet by injecting plasma TNG: Inheritance.
There is Ent: The Forgotten where it is stated that a thousand NX-01 can blow up a planet. This would likely work by imploding the planet, and then letting it bounce back ripping itself apart.
Sothis wrote: There's an event (not attributed to any specific ship or government) where a plasma reaction destroys all life on a planet in 'The Chase', but no reference to weapons fire or bombardment.
Picard assumes it was a weapon, we know Phasers can do something similar, and of the parties involved the only ones who have been shown to have cloaks are the Klingons and Romulans.
Sothis wrote: In what episode is it stated that a thousand NX-01s could blow up a planet, or even destroy the surface? And in 'Booby Trap', we have no idea how many ships were involved or how long the feat took.
1) The Forgotten
Hell, it'd take at least a thousand starships like Enterprise to blow up an entire planet.
2) Given what we see of fleets in Star Trek it is doubtful that the fleet talked about in Booby Trap was more then a couple thousand ships, and it likely took a single coordinated shot from ever ship.
You basically have all your ships surround the planet, and then fire on it at once, and this will cause the planet to start to implode. Then when you stop firing the planet bounces back ripping itself apart. It's much more practical then the Death Star.
Sothis wrote: His reference for 97,000 ships still comes from a non-canon source and an inadequate understanding of the prefix system. Even the high-end references from 'When it Rains' do not support such vast numbers for the Federation fleet.
You do realize that there are only 4 episode of Deep Space Nine after When it Rains, and that they lost large numbers of ships already?
We don't know what percentage of the Klingon fleet 1500 ships make up.
Sothis wrote: Unfortunately, I have. Some people place a higher value on the appearance of a thing than its actual function.
Perhaps you could show me where this argument is used? I tend to find this sort of claim to be someone taking something out of context seemingly on purpose.
I've seen the claim that Stardestroyers are big, and therefore must be more powerful them smaller ships, but that simply the same flawed argument.
2) The Umbaran would imply you can judge Star Wars technology by looks from an in universe perspective, and it would imply that miniaturization and tech in general isn't what it could be for the galactic standard.
http://www.starwars.com/databank/umbaran
http://www.starwars.com/databank/umbaran-hover-tank
http://www.starwars.com/databank/umbaran-starfighter
http://www.starwars.com/databank/umbaran-crawler-tank
Sothis wrote: The function of Imperial warships is indeed to be scary- and to deploy bombers, fighters, ground vehicles, and be capable of engaging other ships. Star Destroyers are clearly multi-role craft, and are designed to be.
1) To be scary seems to take precedence above all else. The horrible AT-AT, the worse AT-ST, the waste of resources of the Death Stars, etc. It isn't a good long term strategy.
2) That is kind of a problem, jack of all trades and master of none only works so well. Each AT-AT basically need a Super Guppy to get from orbit to the ground and back, and this sort of thing results in a lot of wasted space that can't be used for the fighters or the Stardestroyer.
The Stardestroyer(1600 kilometers) design mostly works in universe do to being so much larger then almost anything anyone can get their hands on. Most ships are going to be about the size of an Alderaan Cruiser(126.68 meters), but a still smaller Mon Calamari Star Cruiser(1200 meter) is roughly speaking an even fight from what I can find.
Sothis wrote: And yet even the Federation realised, in the face of the Borg and the Dominion, that they could not afford to waste time and material building ships along those lines - hence why civilians no longer accompany Starfleet personnel on their ships, and there are no schools on new designs. It's a mark of progress that the Feds dropped such things from their ships.
There's actually no way to show what you are saying to be proven true or false as far as I know, and there's no evidence that all ships had families on them to begin with.
One problem is that you are likely to end up with children on ships if you have mixed sex crews, and most of the time having families won't be a problem. If you don't have time to off load passengers before entering combat then things have gone sideways very fast.
Sothis wrote: I don't doubt this conclusion. The threat from the Dominion was obvious and they didn't even need diplomacy to get the Cardassians to join them - the Cardies were in a state of complete disarray, partly due to the Dominion, and were desperate. Persuading the Romulans to sit out wasn't exactly a masterstroke (no one seeks out a potentially devastating war), and they dangled incentives at the Breen toward the end of the war, not exactly hard.
Have you seen the new REBELS shorts? The Imperial go out of their way to get on everyone's bad side, and it's even questionable if they follow their own laws. Their all stick and no carrot.
The Dominion used the carrot, and at least did its best to appear lawful. while expecting agreements beyond join or die. Despite the Cardassians wanting to invade Bajro, the Dominion would not let them do to a nonaggression pact.
From my point of view Star Wars is a simple good verses evil while Star Trek is more shades of grey
Sothis wrote: Quinn interfered with Riker's life and as a result Riker existed to help stop the Borg, but this is not the same as the Q we know and love, or the Continuum, interfering on a regular basis to help humanity or the Federation.
The Q Continuum knows what its members do, and doesn't let them just do whatever they want to. Every action a Q has taken has always resulted in something beneficial for the Federation in the long run.
Q inspired scientists in subtle fashions at just the right time.
The Q ensured the Federation had all the right people and technology to repel the Borg in Best of Both Worlds.
As a direct result of Q's actions the Federation drastically improved its ship designs, ramped up Galaxy Class production, built its first pure warship, and began designing and implementing more powerful weapons like Quantum Torpedos, and does all of this just in time to be ready for the Dominion war.
There is a very obvious pattern to the Q's actions. The Q are actively helping the United Federation of Planets while overtly playing the villain, but then they've been manipulating groups for so long they basically created all the factions in Star Trek.
Sothis wrote: And the Empire could also do what modern militaries do and set up training facilities across their territory that mimic other locations and scenarios.
A holodeck can create a copy of an entire planet in seconds. The scale of the construct is basically irrelevant.
Real world and Star Wars can do a few blocks in days to weeks, and then they have to rebuild it every time, and can't move it to where they may need it.
Sothis wrote: We don't know what the breakdown is. With a million systems it wouldn't matter if only one out of fifty Imperial worlds were as developed as Coruscant or even 24th Century-era earth - that's still a lot of developed worlds for various facilities.
Given most planet I can recall appear to be lightly populated compared to real world Earth, and Coruscant is unique I doubt this to be true. Just about every battle in the Clone Wars was over a single city, and even important planets like Rylth had tiny populations with mud huts.
You're also forgetting that that the militaries in Star Wars are tiny for the size of the size of the setting. Remeber the 2 or 3 million clone army, or the Rebel Fleet in episode 6?
Sothis wrote: I don't seem to recall suggesting the Empire can move planets, but then, they don't need to.
In response to the statement that holodecks are used for mission training you stated the Empire likely has entire planet(s) for that sort of thing, but that just shows you are confusing basic training with pre covert ops training that groups like Navy S.E.A.L. and Delts Force do before missions. By misunderstanding me you claimed the Empire moves planets on a regular basis, and I wanted to be sure of what you meant as I've seen otherwise reasonable people have at least one quirk.
We also see the laser tag games used to train the Clones. Holodecksa are simply better do to flexibility and ease of use.
Sothis wrote: They have never been demonstrated to make weapons, or large-scale parts for ships, or anti-matter, and this is the reason ships have cargo bays - to have on hand other materials they can't replicate.
Voyager built multiple shuttles that had warpdrives and weapons, two delta flyers from scratch, parts for Voyager itself, and about 80 something photon torpedos which are ftl weapons. While this was all done off screen, Voyager's crew still only had Voyager's replacators to work with.
Out of everything we see the only thing Voyager ever had a shortage of was hydrogen for fusion and antimatter production and poorly designed ram scoops. This is because replators convert energy to matter and back
Sothis wrote: I wouldn't call magnetic fields weird - they are present on every planet, as is thick rock on terrestrial planets. Beaming through shields is rare, risky and usually not even tried.
You've just claimed that you can't transport on to starships in Star trek without realizing it. EPS conduits and such in Starships don't mess with transporters, and yet far weaker fields cause problems. Clearly there is something odd/more complex about the magnetic fields that screw with transporters.
Transporting through shields is easily done if those transporting are more technologically advanced. The Borg easily do it.
Sothis wrote: Transporters were seen as unwise to use in bad conditions in 'The Enemy', dense metals in 'Hero Worship', and by natural minerals in 'Insurrection'.
So in "The Enemy" we has storms that are worse then the EPS conduits that run throughout starships, and that doesn't sound odd to you?
In "Hero Worship" the problem was victurium alloys and undefined shielding which may or may not have been the victurium.
In "Insurrection" the problem is is a fictional mineral called kelbonite.
You are treating purely fictional exotics with unknown properties as if they are mundane.
Sothis wrote: I don't actually claim the Emperor can pass on his powers - I seem to use the words 'did not have an official heir', so I am not claiming there was an Imperial tradition to do this as you seem to think I am. There was no Senate to grant anyone else emergency powers either, by ROTJ. Hence why the Empire would have almost certainly fallen into infighting. This is all irrelevant, since the original point was that a typical argument is all about the Rebels (being a rag-tag band) were able to undermine and ultimately trigger the fall of the Empire, and a lot of people take this to mean the Federation could too.
1) "and because the Emperor did not have an official heir" implies you think the Emperor could name someone as his heir, and that you think there could have been an empire after his death which legally becomes the Galactic Republic again the moment the Emperor gives up his emergency powers which he lost when he died. Episode 1, 2,3 and the Episode 6 Special Edition pretty much gutted the EU you are talking about as well.
2) By Retiurn of the Jedi, the Rebellion was a fully functional military with the backing of many planetary governments. Rag tag groups don't fight with top of the line weapons and backing from top of the line warships. They were as rag tag as the CIS was, but without one person controlling both sides.
http://www.starwars.com/databank/rebel-alliance
The Rebels were better armed then the Empire.
3) Those riots you are talking about appear to be organized parties because everyone came to hate the Empire by that point
4) Kill the Emperor and then leave, and the GFFA will be happy peace at any cost hippies they are.
Sothis wrote: Tricorders can be blocked and tricked. They are not omnipotent devices.
While technically true you pretty much need to do it on purpose, and top of the line ECM in Star Wars only seems to deal with the electromagnetic spectrum, and the Federation is use to dealing with better ECM. Dac was using radar and sonar for interplanetary sensors.
Voyager was able to copy a Slipstream drive with just a few scans, and Archer's crew could date things by using a method called quantum dating which only required a quick scan.