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The second nuTrek movie : Into Dorkness 
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Admiral
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Trek nolife nerds vote STID worst Trek movie ever, Pegg replies "fuck you"

Guy has a point. A huge one.


Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:25 pm
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Worst of the bunch?
When compared to the borefest that was TMP, or the craploads that were TFF and INS?
Generation and Nemesis were better than STiD?
Yeah, stupid vote is stupid...


Sat Sep 14, 2013 1:14 am
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Isn't it criminal to make a Trek movie that is actually watchable?


Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:22 pm
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*A wild trinoya appears!* Whoa, been away for some time folks, sorry about that! I'd been lurking in the trek wars section on rare occasions but I've mostly been over at spacebattles in my free time away from my job (I was pulling 90 hour weeks, not cool).



Worst Trek movie? I'd personally give that to ST:Nemesis. While Into Dorkness (love the thread title still) isn't ranked high on my list I wouldn't by any respects call it the worst trek movie. I'd rate it at 9/12... but definitely not #12.


Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:46 am
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Nah, Final Frontier was worse than Nemesis.


Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:43 am
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So I finally have seen Into Darkness, hot on the heels of having watched Gravity.

I was well-spoiled from when STID came out, though it's been awhile so the spoilers and complaints weren't fresh on my mind. But still, it was overall pretty silly, but as with the other new one it tries to move fast enough to cover the plot holes, not always successfully. (Perhaps even not often.)

There were some well-executed scenes, such as the wordless scenes around the daughter thing. I also enjoyed the 3D view of the area around the bombing in an NSA sort of way. And the aliens of Nibiru or whatever that place was, and also the red plantlife, was very well done and more appreciated than the usual bumpy-headed Hollywood actors either on a stage full of greens or on an exterior set somewhere near Hollywood. The fact that they decided to open the torpedo off of the ship was a nice touch, though a shuttle would've sufficed.

But there were also some odd bits, like the focus on the bag that Khan had which seemed to be a question that was then left unanswered (or was that the transporter?), or why Khan's chopper attack with miniguns was so poorly executed, or why he beamed to the Ketha lowlands (nice nod to a previously mentioned place, by the way), or why the abandoned area was so inordinately built up, or why the sabotage of the warp drive was executed so early, or why . . .

Okay, yeah.

Suffice it to say that the movie does not stand up to scrutiny much at all.

For instance, they decide to violate the Prime Directive and Spock takes on the mission, and he's going to die because they lose the zip cord and can only beam line-of-sight. Okay, fine . . . send another shuttle, since we know they have transporters. But instead they raise the Enterprise which is hiding for no apparent reason in the sea, which means they weren't in line-of-sight at orbital height, and they know good and well that the natives are nearby. And they don't even bother to try to make a cloud or anything using seawater to cloak their maneuver.

Standard operating procedure in the event of certain activities is to have all of the brass meet in a particular room with windows and no security around the building.

And, of course, Scotty magically gets aboard the super-secret ship in the super-secret shipyard that is in orbit of Jupiter, probably visible from higher end personal telescopes by that point. He can do this because the super-secret base doesn't seem to have any capacity to detect random ships dropping by and just falling in line with a shuttle convoy approaching from another direction entirely, nor was he challenged at all upon landing.

The dedicated warship (as if to suggest that the Enterprise is not such a thing) is, for some reason, huge-mongous, as opposed to the Defiant precedent.

And the big bad boogeyman of the Klingon Empire where the fear is that they will start a war? The Klingons can scarcely defend their own planet . . . the confiscated civilian ship is not even challenged until it is within the atmosphere of Kronos.

As far as who was doing what to whom insofar as Marcus vs. Khan and who had what plans when, I really lost track. Was Marcus planning to have Khan go to Kronos and then receive his 72 supermen and they were then to attempt to take the planet? That might've been a nifty idea, however silly. Either way, giving the Klingon Empire to the supermen is a bad plan, just like Kirk giving Khan the Vengeance.

As far as the super-blood thing, I'm not worried about that having any relevance to the prime universe, since these augments are, in my view, completely removed from those of the prime timeline, and need not be anything similar, for the same reason that I don't think that is our Spock.


Mon Oct 14, 2013 2:03 pm
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I googled to try to figure out what the crap was going on with the Marcus/Khan plan, and found this:

http://badassdigest.com/2013/09/11/how- ... acy-movie/

It's good to know I am not the only one who found it a little silly. Basically, it seems to me that the only moment when we can be sure Khan isn't working for Marcus is right when and immediately before he head-smashes Marcus.

So it seems that the daughter-saving, the bombing, the crappy chopper attack, the escape to Kronos, the poorly done Enterprise sabotage and the planned cruise-torpedo attack . . . this was all part of an entirely convoluted plot by Marcus and, to an extent, Khan, except Khan went through with it knowing he'd planted his crew in the torpedoes, but was surprised that Kirk had them. Presumably he did not know that the torpedoes were the final move in that part of the plot, but in any case it seems Khan had no real plan to rescue them. After all, you don't go on a vacation to the Ketha lowlands when your favorite people are hidden in the bullets of a trigger-happy madman.

By the way, how did Sulu manage to direct a transmission to Khan while he was on the Klingon homeworld? Did I miss something where he'd published his phone number in the Klingon white pages?

And didn't Marcus beam his daughter through shields?


Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:21 pm
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Admiral
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Who really wrote that movie?


Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:26 pm
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So, I watched that movie, at last.

It's not bad. I mean, from an entertainment point of view, if you can ignore some odd plot points (neutral zone being like, erm, visible from Kronos and the moon jammed into the planet (WTF physics ???), or the Enterprise falling to Earth just because while the moon never seems to, and the VENGEANCE grazing her, the utter lack of protection of Fed HQ, or how one can so easily visit Kronos in the middle of a warming cold war... it's quite a beautiful work.

It turns out that even if the plot fails to be "original", I see why it went that way with the parallelal course. A sort of WHAT IF?
From there, we get to understand why Spock snaps. The movie literally pulls his human part over the vulcan one, and it's easy to understand how the destruction of his own world, with the death of his mother right in front of his eyes, would have given birth to a volcano awaiting the right moment to pop.
Add that Kirk probably being the only thing close to a real friend that nuSpock ever had, and I think that the entire emotional roller coaster he goes through to be really believable.

All sets were stunning, the final city chase, civilian vehicles design, places, all... amazing, truly.
Oh. OH!!
That starship porn, really. It felt so good. Mmm...
Enterprise everywhere, yummy, Enterprise rises from the ocean, Enterprise leaves the space station, Enterprise rises from the clouds, Enterprise goes at warp with her Mighty Blue Trails (thanks to Orgasm Nacelle tech), Vengeance smashes into water and into buildings, it's fantastic.
Vengeance riding and raping cute Enterprise at warp, from behind. I could almost feel it, oh boy. :3
Did you notice? They really love showing people being sucked out into space... at warp... by bits.
They don't even need to be redshirts, and you even manage to feel something about them... how they scream, etc.
God bless modern CGI when it's done well. Pure coolness at its apex and franly I loved it.

Khan was brillantly played, he kicked arse when weilding both a pulse gun and the heavy phaser cannon on Kronos.
Pike's death was top class.
There were some good lines between all characters. A bit too much 90120 at times, but I think in reality, that's the kind of stuff that might happen. Although not on a military ship. Hence "we're explorers".

The messed up artificial gravity was a clever excuse to have some typically absurd Galaxy Quest-like danger zones in the starship (how corridors turn into death pits). At least we didn't get a silly theme park water sliding tube sequence like in the first movie.

Fuck, ALL former Trek movies really look like shit in comparison, to be honest.

This can only bode well for the future Star Wars movies. Oh man, the lightsabre action... ohlala! *^-^*


Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:28 pm
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Oh, one more point that kinda bothered me. To borrow RLM's words, if the first movie made a special effort about proving the "not gay" aspect, that one really pushed the enveloppe hard on the "not racist" side of things.
They literally shoehorned one original black person in about every possible group shot available. When not possible, you'd get an Asian, and when that would fail -yes, it would happen- you'd at least get an alien... not a mexican one, I mean one from space (the alien, non-Earth... OK ???).
Seriously guys, we do get it, not that dense, thanks : Federation, happy friends, sex with aliens, yeah yeah. But that was literally over the top!


Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:52 pm
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2046 wrote:
I googled to try to figure out what the crap was going on with the Marcus/Khan plan, and found this:

http://badassdigest.com/2013/09/11/how- ... acy-movie/

It's good to know I am not the only one who found it a little silly. Basically, it seems to me that the only moment when we can be sure Khan isn't working for Marcus is right when and immediately before he head-smashes Marcus.

So it seems that the daughter-saving, the bombing, the crappy chopper attack, the escape to Kronos, the poorly done Enterprise sabotage and the planned cruise-torpedo attack . . . this was all part of an entirely convoluted plot by Marcus and, to an extent, Khan, except Khan went through with it knowing he'd planted his crew in the torpedoes, but was surprised that Kirk had them. Presumably he did not know that the torpedoes were the final move in that part of the plot, but in any case it seems Khan had no real plan to rescue them. After all, you don't go on a vacation to the Ketha lowlands when your favorite people are hidden in the bullets of a trigger-happy madman.

You can read it that way if you try, but I think it's a lot more plausible to take it at face value. Khan goes off the rails thinking his people are dead, Carol Marcus goes off on her own, and the admiral seizes the opportunity to try to get a shooting war kicked off on his schedule instead of the Klingons'.

Why are things not going according to plan?

1. The admiral is in the room when the shooting starts. There's a lot of firepower being thrown around indiscriminately, broken glass, etc. So, for that matter, are Kirk, Pike, and any other potential starship captains he might be thinking of using. Lots of people die in that sequence, I believe - just not many important named ones. That rifle Kirk picked up belonged to a living security person first.

So he's risking his own neck and also insuring that he has to use an unknown quantity.

2. Tracing the beam-out is a Scotty thing. There is little guarantee, after the violent response by Starfleet Security - and Kirk, as it so happens - that the transwarp transporter would be recovered intact, let alone by someone who knew what it was and knew how it worked.

Fleeing to QonoS makes a certain amount of sense for Khan... especially since he might be able to rig himself up to pass as an Augment-virus afflicted Klingon. Conversely, only a very special of a Starfleet officer would comply with blatantly illegal orders risking starting a war with the Klingons by shooting at their homeworld, so the admiral can't count on having a patsy to perform the act.

Most of Kirk's officers registered objections to the plan as illegal from the get-go. Kirk knew the orders were illegal. Very few Starfleet captains would have fulfilled that. See #1. If Khan was still working for the admiral and this was all a deep plan, the admiral would have needed to have his loose cannon tucked away somewhere else so he didn't die. Kirk almost died anyway, and if you can predict anything, it's that Kirk would risk his neck trying to take down the choppa.

3. Carol. The admiral absolutely could not rely on someone on the Enterprise surviving any of this. The Klingons could have intercepted them going in; traced where the shuttle came from; and there were lots of fiery bloody deaths during the initial attack. Carol Marcus could easily have died. Her presence wasn't part of some crazy Xanatos gambit, it was unplanned.

And with her presence being unplanned, everything that follows from it? Also unplanned.

4. The engine sabotage going off when it did can be chalked up to Chekov screwing up the engines and the Enterprise being much slower than expected. If I'm not greatly mistaken, the plan was for the Enterprise to stall after firing the torpedoes. At which point, because the torpedoes' trajectory would point right at their position, the Klingons could be expected to come swarming.

5. That Kirk would have an "inside man" in system to disable the dreadnought at a key moment? Not at all something that could be counted on. There's no predicting the outcome of Scotty and Kirk's confrontation, or Scotty deciding, in the midst of DUIing with a shuttle, to join a construction crew.

And, given the presence of that "inside man," that the sabotage wouldn't have more lethal consequences for the admiral.



Of course, I wouldn't put it past Khan to have guessed the Admiral's plan. It all hangs together much better as a plot if we bear in mind that Khan is a masterful opportunist; but the admiral has to know that he's going to get one or another opportunity to start a war with the Klingons.

Setting up the resident loose cannon to die a bloody martyr's death is a brilliant three-birds-with-one-stone plan... the sort that an inferior unethical improviser comes up under stress.

It's a movie that's very light on technical detail and consistency while having a complicated plot, but I think the conspiracy-theorist take on exactly how deep and complicated the plot goes is squirrelly. Khan's a brilliant opportunist, the admiral thought he was a brilliant opportunist and screwed up a bunch of different ways, and Carol wandered into it all under her own power - forging fake orders from her dad.

If I'm remembering the line right, she didn't actually have legit orders, and her father could have given her legit orders. Right?


Sun Dec 01, 2013 6:08 am
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Jedi Master Spock wrote:

You can read it that way if you try, but I think it's a lot more plausible to take it at face value.


But that's the problem . . . at face value, it was a series of disjointed events whose only significant connection was that it generally included the same irrational characters.

Quote:
Khan goes off the rails thinking his people are dead, Carol Marcus goes off on her own, and the admiral seizes the opportunity to try to get a shooting war kicked off on his schedule instead of the Klingons'.


But that's not a plot. That's a conected collection of people all going in their own directions.

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Why are things not going according to plan?

1. The admiral is in the room when the shooting starts. There's a lot of firepower being thrown around indiscriminately, broken glass, etc. So, for that matter, are Kirk, Pike, and any other potential starship captains he might be thinking of using. Lots of people die in that sequence, I believe - just not many important named ones. That rifle Kirk picked up belonged to a living security person first.

So he's risking his own neck and also insuring that he has to use an unknown quantity.


That's insane in the context of being a plan.

Quote:
2. Tracing the beam-out is a Scotty thing. There is little guarantee, after the violent response by Starfleet Security - and Kirk, as it so happens - that the transwarp transporter would be recovered intact, let alone by someone who knew what it was and knew how it worked.


Again, this makes Bond villains look sensible.

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Fleeing to QonoS makes a certain amount of sense for Khan... especially since he might be able to rig himself up to pass as an Augment-virus afflicted Klingon.


That's assuming they even had that issue in this timeline/universe. And why go to a totally alien world at all? This isn't Snowden being welcomed by Russia, this is self-exile to not-even-terra incognita, alone.

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Conversely, only a very special of a Starfleet officer would comply with blatantly illegal orders risking starting a war with the Klingons by shooting at their homeworld, so the admiral can't count on having a patsy to perform the act.


Isn't that exactly what he does? Kirk is the patsy and like any good patsy has to be killed. He's a willing participant since, with Pike's death, Kirk is ticked off and after being relieved is looking to get in good graces . . . by this rationale, Pike was the actual target of the chopper attack. But in principle, any other ticked off young captain would have sufficed, it's juat that Kirk was the best candidate at the time.

Like Marcus said, he never intended for the crew of the Enterprise to live.

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Carol Marcus could easily have died. Her presence wasn't part of some crazy Xanatos gambit, it was unplanned.


This was definitely a surprise to all.

Quote:
And with her presence being unplanned, everything that follows from it? Also unplanned.


Yes, but this is exactly what I was saying and what the other guy talking about Orci the 9/11 truther nut was saying. Everything was going somewhat according to plan except for Carol Marcus, which means we must assess the plan as it would've gone without her involvement. And when we do so, we find that it is insane.

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That Kirk would have an "inside man" in system to disable the dreadnought at a key moment? Not at all something that could be counted on.


I never suspected that this was part of any plan.

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I think the conspiracy-theorist take on exactly how deep and complicated the plot goes is squirrelly.


I just don't see any way for it to make any sense whatsoever without conspiracist nuttery, unless we are supposed to take this movie as a farce about the land of the blind with the Enterprise crew being one-eyed men.

Basically, it seems that with the references to opportunism among the antagonists, that your suggestion is that Khan and Marcus were enemies as of the start of the film, and Marcus decided to use Khan's escape to the Klingon homeworld as casus belli, more or less . . . he would send his magic torpedoes with Kirk and have Kirk fire on the Klingon homeworld, and around the same time his ship would break, the Klingons would destroy them, and Marcus would have the war he'd been hoping to create. This was all thwarted by his daughter helping Kirk who had an attack of conscience and went on a raid instead of lobbing missiles.

I can live with that as-is, but then there are still a ton of gaping holes. Why did Khan go to the Klingon homeworld? Sure, it is suggested that he went there because it is the one place he thought Starfleet couldn't go, but that is extremely flimsy. Khan is a 20th Century superman who gets used while the Admiral holds his people hostage. He gets access to his people, hides them in a war-mongerers missiles, then makes a half-hearted attempt to kill the Admiral and runs away to a likely missile target and from any hope of being able to save his people permanently?

See, this is why I have trouble following the plot, because it quickly breaks down anytime you try to look at it.


Sun Dec 01, 2013 7:45 pm
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The plot is hard to follow.
Some legitimate questions people would raise, first.

What if during the rampage, key players get killed?
Plan B? Set up another false flag with an "obvious" hint to some remote Klingon activity?
Possible, but damn, that puts the Vengeance's use on hold.
If the vehicle Kahn used was caught, and if he had time to beam out, wouldn't someone wonder how the hell that kind of transwarp tech ended there while it's supposedly a secret tech the Fed got their hands on?
Oh ok, we have "traitors." Willing or bribed.
I think there's always a solution, but that's damn convoluted.

In fact, was Kahn escaping part of any plan? He just helped build the ship. Because Kahn did escape, right? Marcus lost sight of him sometimes around the end of the Vengeance being built.
And why the bother with the other Augments? Why that plot with putting them in missiles?
Why not just kill them somewhere or just throw them in a sun? After all, they were going to be fired at some ship, planet or something. They'd crash. Like, Augment Goo.

The whole plan needed the Enterprise to "start" the war, that is, officially, having dodged bureaucracy farwest style to bring justice to all and retrieve the guy who worked with Klingons. Or, officially at least, the terrorist who resided on Qonos.

Except that this terrorist is totally uncontrolable.

But then it works: Kahn somehow still works for Marcus. Let's just consider here that Marcus and Kahn made contact again and Kahn accepted to play patsy in order to recover his kin. Marcus told him he'd play the bad guy and go to Qonos, and in exchange, he'd be given the Augments' tubes, disguised as torpedoes which would just conveniently not explode but actually land like safety pods or else, like it happened for Spock.
Ok, the plan is better that way.
Safe that why would Marcus even send the Augments that way? Why would Kahn know anything and trust Marcus? Sure, Kahn didn't have much choice here, but then again leaving the Augments alive is a huge risk and giving all them back to Kahn would be silly. Kahn, free at the head of his SuperMensa club. Are you kidding me?
I believe that Marcus would just blow the hell out of them. So again why bother with the special sauce torpedoes? And what's the damned guaranty that they'd even be fired?
The moment they send the Enterprise, everything inside the Enterprise is on an unregulated solo mission. Crew, weapons, shuttles, everything.

Plus how the hell launching a small ship from so close to Qonos was supposed to be... unspotted?
The plot is so messy.

You want a false flag? Spend some budget building a fakish Klingon ship and have it do some runs against Federation worlds on the fringe. Even provoke some lone Klingon groups and somehow have them attack some other Fed assets.
Then have on top of that the sabotage used as a theory of traitors being "within out ranks", where bribery runs rampant, which allows martial law to reign supreme.
And have that sabotage made by someone you can actually trust, not a heartbroken father given some kind of antimatter bomb by a rogue freak.


Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:15 pm
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You guys do realize the Q are in the background making sure things work out.


Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:32 am
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2046 wrote:
But that's the problem . . . at face value, it was a series of disjointed events whose only significant connection was that it generally included the same irrational characters.

...

I just don't see any way for it to make any sense whatsoever without conspiracist nuttery, unless we are supposed to take this movie as a farce about the land of the blind with the Enterprise crew being one-eyed men.

I don't think that's a bad way to take this movie. I think you mostly agree with me that Khan being still on the admiral's side and the entire thing being a big giant complex devious plan up until Khan clocks the admiral would require that the plan be completely insane and irrational in the first place.

Sometimes, the only connection in a story is that it's about what's happening to the characters. Why is Kirk sleeping with [INSERT WOMAN HERE] who never shows up again? Because it reminds us who Kirk is supposed to be. This story is about the characters going through stuff and their relationships. Stray consequences
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Why did Khan go to the Klingon homeworld? Sure, it is suggested that he went there because it is the one place he thought Starfleet couldn't go, but that is extremely flimsy. Khan is a 20th Century superman who gets used while the Admiral holds his people hostage. He gets access to his people, hides them in a war-mongerers missiles, then makes a half-hearted attempt to kill the Admiral and runs away to a likely missile target and from any hope of being able to save his people permanently?

Two questions; I have two answers.

1. What about the hostages?

Here's what - face value - ought to have been happening between the admiral and Khan. Khan goes to work for the admiral, the admiral is holding his people - holding them hostage, as Khan sees it. Khan then puts them in long-range missiles. The admiral finds out about this, probably because Khan overlooked something 23rd century in nature, assumes - probably correctly - that Khan is plotting to spring his hostages, and makes the missiles disappear. Khan assumes that this means that the admiral has killed the hostages.

Why? Because the admiral is not a very nice person and has a bit of a temper ... and Khan misbehaved. "Misbehave and I'll kill the hostages," followed by the hostages vanishing.

So he doesn't know that his people are still alive until he discovers those missiles are on board the Enterprise. And the admiral wants to shoot the missiles full of people at Khan because the admiral thinks it is some sort of poetic justice. Why? Because the admiral is not a very nice person and has a bit of a temper.

2. Why Qo'noS?

Okay, the first thing to bear in mind is that, if we're taking this at face value, Khan's on a rampage because his people are dead. Khan needs two things: Safety and the ability to rebuild his long-range plans.

The NuTrek timeline's point of divergence is post-ENT. It at least purportedly keeps the pre-Narada, that is, pre-2233, stuff the same, and the ancient Admiral Archer whose dog was lost is even supposed to be the same Jonathan Archer. We have every reason to believe that the Augment Virus happened, so it would be possible for him - with superhuman strength and durability - to pass for a Klingon who had been affected by the virus.

So he could, in principle, get by on Qo'noS without the Klingons killing him. Check one for safety.

Second, the Federation is not in a good position to win a war with the Klingons, and even a winning war of containment is not likely to extend to bombarding Qo'noS extensively and massacring the civilian population. Check two for safety.

Third, even if the admiral is searching for casus belli for a shooting war with the Klingons, launching an illegal mission to Qo'noS is a crap plan. After all, nearly every line starship captain and officer would swiftly identify those orders as illegal and liable to start a war. We saw evidence of that in how every Starfleet officer who isn't Kirk or the admiral reacted to those orders. Scotty even resigned, and with anything less than Kirk's cult of personality among the bridge crew, the rest of the officers aboard ship probably would have followed suit. Check three for safety.

Only the fact that the admiral happens to have an eager loose cannon on hand, who also has a strong cult of personality surrounding him, makes that plan a remote possibility, and Khan doesn't know Kirk from Adam at that point in time. Not that Kirk is even supposed to have a realistic chance of resuming command of anything when Khan lays out his plans and then starts his rampage.

As a last possibility, he might even be thinking that when the inevitable war with the Federation starts, he can sell out Section 31's secrets in exchange for some very big favors from the Klingons.

So. That's safety. But Khan is ambitious.

Not only is there a strain of Klingons infected with his "superior" genetics, but Klingons are genetically compatible with humans. We've seen multiple examples of hybrid Klingons... who are themselves demonstrably interfertile with both Klingons and humans, to the point of having unplanned kids.

Khan probably knows this. He can have kids here, possibly lots of kids. Check one for plans.

Klingon culture is also very meritocratic and has a warrior-fetish. Good sort of society to be in if you're "superior." You can climb up the ranks. Even if you can't necessarily stab your way to being Emperor, you can get very far as a skilled warrior with a good brain.

So Khan could possibly found his own House. Check two for plans.

Third, the Klingon Empire is a very powerful and enduring entity. There's no guarantee that Khan thinks the Federation is likely to win a war with the Klingons; he can probably see that the Klingon Empire has been, still is, and is likely to remain one of the most powerful political entities in the region for generations.

That makes it a great launchpad for an ambitious man who would like his descendants to rule a galaxy. Check three for plans.


Now, there are other reasons why Qo'noS is a bad idea; but there certainly are some reasons why Khan might decide to pick Qo'noS.


Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:46 am
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