The odd range of missiles and torps in the EGtWaT

[sonofccn]

I didn't see any valid argument on your side.

I highlighted examples countering the argument you posulated. It deserved some response not to be ignored and then to just repeat your argument again.

You didn't consider the OT stylized action, notably in ANH, of importance.

The style of the OT wasn't what I was responding to. You cited in-universe reasons and I responded thusly.

I argued that it was important

For purposes of our debate its absolutely pointless.

You claimed that the performance of troops in the OT, notably in ANH, was just as poor as in TCWS, which is just totally false.

I claimed there was no notable difference.

I admitted it wasn't stellar, but I pointed out that not only there were mitigating factors explaining the misses, but also pointed at cases in TCWS where the performance is so many times worse than anything you get in the old movies.

And there is disagreement with the above hence why we are debating this topic.

In a way, it doesn't surprise me that TCWS is such a snore. It couldn't care less about characters and the plots. It is a logical continuation, say a culmination of the boring action scenes in the prequels, in ways, even alluded in ROTJ, when Lucas overreacted to TESB and dumbed down the enemy's troops. In a way, when producing his presquels, Lucas couldn't decide if he should have taken his own stuff sufficiently seriously at times, and make it lightly comical during split seconds, and sort of goofed up and fell onto extremes, with his main characters supposed emboiled inside some considerably dramatic story, while legions of cretins fighting on both sides. That, and loads of forced humour.
It didn't help to have the droids in the prequels so dumb and inept, although at times clones were acting well enough, aside from the completely absurd strategies adopted by various general commands. But TCWS was sheer absurdity on overload. It's just that. It produces unbelievable situations, which have more to do with Looney Toons than some action movie. Anyone expecting me to take this kind of nonsense at face value has to be drunk.

Once again you are entitled to your opinion of GL's work but it doesn't have a place in our debate. As to the revelant portion regarding tactics look back over the clip Lucky provided. The tactics for both sides were bone headed and stupid.

The corridor was soon littered with corpses despite the troopers had entered the corridor under fire from people who had their vision hampered, rifles almost on the hips.

I never argued that the stormtroopers didn't win that engagment. My argument is that they were crummy shots even when firing in volley against foes standing directly in front of them.

Considering the kind of accuracy one is to expect when firing any semi-automatic weapon from that position, it actually turns out to be roughly acceptable.

And I would disagree. They were firing in a rough line formation against an enemy at most yards away who were standing without cover.

What was not was the fact that they didn't hold their weapons in a way to obtain a better aim.

The fact stormtroopers can't hold their guns properly would only speak against them not for them.

Then rewatch the scene. The three stooges running away from the imperial troopers had perhaps been formerly fighting them earlier on.

It is presumbly the three we saw fighting them earlier. But even if you wish to excuse their performance the stormtroopers would not be so hampered and scored only a solitary kill. No better than the remaining rebels who turned and fired.

Then those rebels and their friends stood in the hall and traded shots with stormtroopers who also stood in the hall. That is tactically inept with a miliary performance to match.

Which means breathing smoke from vaporized metal or plastic and their senses still affected by the bangs and flashes.

There is no evidence anyone breathed in metal or plastic and I feel I should stress it isn't like every bolt causes an explosion. At best we got some smoke they'd breathed in the previous corridor and some bright light, through the weapon's flashes last for far less duration and are far less obvious to the naked eye at regular speed than the "flash-bomb" and we get far less evidence of troopers being affected by it, and the odd explosion from a random bolt.

We also note, but with some difficulty (and not on this picture), that the stormtroopers come out of a corridor section which was filled with some smoke.

That is presumbly the corridor we just saw the stormtroopers take. But they aren't fighting in it but in a pristine corridor, with thier nice helmets and unflashbanged eyes. There is no reason to assume they are impaired.

There also is the possibility that they didn't have orders to exterminate every single Alderaanian trooper but push them back and capture as many as possible. Their firing barrages would therefore make a shit ton of sense here.

No. Unless you have a quote to that effect dealing with the boarding part of the operation not afterwards when they find the plans are not in the main computer, where we see the stun setting used, that is an unsubstataniated assumption which can be discarded.

It's obvious that killing all of them would have made any interrogation hard to complete. And it's not like Vader was on their heels, wanting to recover the damn plans.

There is a difference between taking prisoners, as we see them do, and deliberately not shooting the guy trying to kill you. As well:

IMPERIAL OFFICER
The Death Star plans are not in the
main computer.

They did at least consider the possibility they could get the plans from the ship's computer.

Who said secret plan, as in, some big convoluted master plan?

You did by making it something every last stormtrooper knows about.

First, Tarkin has no mustache to twirl, secondly a mere push'em back but don't kill would have been enough.

Which means every stormtrooper must be informed and obliging. All of which we don't see, only stormtroopers who give every appearence of trying to capture/kill the intruders. So again I have to go with my proposal.

Eventually, an order like force them to surrender would also work, considering that there was zero reason the troopers would believe the guys in question could ever leave the battle station to begin with.

Excepting these "elite" troops should be able to corner and defeat a handful of intruders. Excepting firing lethal rounds wildly into an open space can accidently kill someone. Excepting we truly don't know what Tarkin intended beyond placing a beacon on the falcon, for all were shown that could have been the extent of his action.

The problem with that is the lack of use of the stun setting. But that's been a problem since Lucas penned that part.

Not if we assume there are very few times people want to ensure absolutely they take someone alive.

Being under fire from stun bolts would have been plain enough to convince Solo and co to run away at any chance. Although the use of normal fire is a far more convincing as well. If we make a parallel with modern firearms, many security forces are encouraged to use their weapons in ways to incapacitate the enemy. Considering we've seen that a pistol in ROTJ can leave a mark on a shoulder but certainly not kill, it's possible that low yields could be used. However, the violence of th explosions on the walls certainly doesn't agree with that.
Perhaps the stun setting is very short ranged, said range less than ten meters at best, and not being just about accuracy but also about potency.

Perhaps...maybe...but I think this is digressing from the main argument.

Coupled with some order of push'em back the troopers would have to execute, it sorts of work.
Again, this is not to say that if they had orders to kill, they're suddenly turn into exceptional marksmen either!

Excepting we have no evidence for the "push them back" order. That would be a creation on your part, your assumption, not GL's. If in your personal interpetation you wish to use that its your choice you can't hold that up as definative proof or demand that I take it when there are simplier and just as effective solutions to be had.

There's quite something that doesn't work well with your idea. Your plan requires Tarkin being capable of precognition and being a god of probabilities as to gamble that the number of military spacecrafts he sends at the cargo ship, with orders to destroy it, will actually fail, and that the fighters won't hit shit against a large target that flies in a straight path, at distances of less than 100 meters!

Considering Tarkin has military experiance, presumbly could obtain some basic knowledge of the ship in question since it has been sitting in their docking bay and have a rough basis of the rough order of strenght of vessels in his universe I don't think its too stretching. Conversely you are assuming Imperial pilots, in the heat of battle, can make on the fly judgment on where to shoot and how powerful to do some damage to the MF, which we observe, and yet not accidently blow it up or cripple it.

Oh, oops, here's a TIE pilot who actually managed to hit the same lumbering cargo many times and put a hole through the engines. The aft section blew up, the air vented and the crew's dead now. Guess they won't be going to Alderaan any time soon now

And if one of those lethal blaster bolts had caught Han Solo? To be blunt Tarkin was gambling just as he was gambling they would go somewhere useful as oppose to a backwater planet and switch vehicles. Simply put I find it a lot easier to swallow he limited the fighters to have a good chance the MF could out fight/out last them to make the jump to hyperspace than assume people are mindless drones who will obey sucide orders. Also I feel I should point out I didn't mention accuracy anywhere in regards to the Tie fighters, as far as I know they have the exact same accuracy elsewhere in the movies, so I don't understand why you seem to be focusing on this.

It's not like it was that hard for the TIEs to actually take down the ship, considering that it had already taken some damage, including internal, early in the skirmish, and that the first run had a TIE pilot fix all of his opening salvo on the back of the MF!

Well for starters I point to that damage as proof the TIEs were shooting to kill as opposed to deliberately missing or firing "blanks" or what have you. Since they were causing damage they could either brilliant plan out and predict every repercussion or they were trying to disable the MF and simply lacked the numbers/firepower to do so. Now if you have an example of the MF being notably hampered/injured by a lone TIE fighter, and the TIE which buzzed them seemed more to surprise than do any damage, then please provide it.

It is possible and even likely that Tarkin had a small task force sent on purpose, but the idea that he'd take the risk of having them behave as to destroy his only card in this extremely important gamble is absurd.

Okay first the gamble was not extremely important, useful yes but not important, because if the MF exploded they'd be exactly where they were beforehand. Remember they were about to execute the Princess. Worst case scenario Tarkin has already put the fear of God in the Rebellion by the succesfful demostration of his superweapon and if need be they can always sniff the Rebel base out later by other means.

Second you are presuming four TIES could be expected to do serious damage to a light frieghter. Remember TIE fighters are anti-fighter not anti-capital ship primarly.

It's also interesting that after the TIEs manage to hit the MF clean, get through the shields and hit some internal systems, they suddenly become totally impotent.

Here @ 7:50 we can see the Ties didn't even start their attack until after Han and Luke were already in position and preparing to return fire, having just caught up with the MF, well before any known damage is said to have occured. So besides the possibility of it being a lucky shot we do have to factor in that said Ties were being shot at and may not have had the most opertune chances to hammer weak points. There is also a possibility of the damage being wrought through bleed through damage, we don't get a deflectors down comment, through admittedly that is pure speculation.

I don't recall claiming stormies to be inept and ineffective. Please quote me doing so, and if you find any such reference, please provide the context and the bit I was replying to.

You agreed their performance wasn't "stellar"

As I said it's not stellar, but there's clearly some level of efficiency and a basis for a beginning of rationalization that you don't even get with TCWS.

Are you now claiming their tactics/performance was good?

You completely miss my point.

Or perhaps you missed mine.

You searched for a case where the fight actually makes more sense

Considering you have primarly talked of a solitary episode, provided no clips, and brushed the entire series as "pants on the head retarded" due to it me pulling Darkness on Umbara is completely legit. At the very worst we would have a contridiction between two equal sources, which would require a clip of the episode in question so that it could be compared, which is hardly a crime.

(yeah, you actually had to go look that far to start finding good stuff?),

Actually Darkness on Umbara was simply an episode I knew had ground combat in it that I could find on youtube. Doing a five minute search for rookies or ambush or such resulted in nothing.

if former cases of complete and total suckfail were irrelevant, that despite the fact that they're the most glaring ones and that all this mess started since the first episode of the series.

Well for starters you haven't actually provided any real evidence those were "suckfail". Second since you argued the entire series was "pants on head retarded" and Darkness on Umbara was part of that series I am fully entitled to bring it up as evidence for my position.

I consider the battle of Plan of Dissent one of the higher showings, and it is nothing new as far as I'm concerned.

That you were aware of it does not alter the facts you argued in this thread namely that the entire series was "pants on head retarded" regarding such matters as military performance/ accuracy.

I didn't deny that once in a while Lucas would actually give the audience some decent battle.

If you believe the weight of evidence falls to your favor, which would be a genuine complaint as opposed to acting like I cheated, it would fall to you to provide some of this evidence. As it is I have recieved some descriptions of an episode maybe too but its hard to tell. no clips, not even a screencap.

What I said is that all those stupid cases of bad aim litter the series and their standard of performance is way lower than anything we got in the OT by far.

Which 1) would still require the clips proving your argument about ambush to be posted.
2) further evidence which shows similar performance is predominate in the animated series
3) evidence where it is inferior to the OT's showings.

Denying this is not going to get you any points in my book.

Deny my boots! Here take a look:

And I don't take evidence of the CWS. It's just too pants on head retarded. Or should be believe that tanks can't destroy small trees and other brushes? Because that's exactly what the tanks of the TF were failing to do in the first episode. We should equally believe that clonetroopers can't actually hit anything at a range of 20 meters, or that Padmé can do some wall-run (the episode when she's in Coruscant's downtowns and hunted).

There is no mention of an episode merely speaking in general regarding the series.

Why should I do that?
The first rebel trooper hit in one shot (miraculously?), but they had the excuse of having a door blowing off in their face in a loud and luminous bang. Know flashbangs?
Although it's a poor performance for most of it, it's quite mitigated in comparison to the completely unhampered condition both sides fight in during the TCWS fights.

Again you of the general case so clearly you are suggesting 51% of examples side with you at the very least

Not all of them, and at least back then GL was smart enough to have plenty of explosions, explaining why people who were close to those explosions could actually have a problem hitting anything.
But having troopers survive a wall of high rate fire from plenty of droids pointing their arms at them less than ten meters away in broad daylight with no smoke no explosion, that's just having action scenes having also blasted whatever could be left of SoD.
Although it also explains why people prefer TESB, because stormies were once shown doing something and being remotely good at it, for a change. Of course it was too much to stomach for GL so he had to pedal back and even go several step too far backwards (Ewoks, even more retarded elite troopers, etc.).
But, again, for some reason, in the mess of the movies, the errors could somehow be forgotten.
In TCWS, it's just a silly wall of fire that's so cosmetically inoffensive that it's a snore and not even believable nor exciting. There's no reason why I should even accept any evidence picked from a lazily done cartoon-inspired product over the movies.

Again talking in the general of the series.

So I am not denying anything. I have provided evidence, evidence you not only want to dismiss but hang around my neck some loathsome shadow of evil doing.

I actually happen to watch the videos and I do know what I'm talking about.

The problem is so do I and I happen to see things differently. Now honestly I don't have a problem that you see things differnt. That's life. My main beef is that you act like your opinion is the only solution and that its on par with denying the obvious if I or anyone else doesn't see it exactly like you do.

You picked one line out of context. I was comparing ranges and accuracies between the OT and the TCWS examples I had already provided.

You made nothing to indicate you were talking about Ambush in isolation nor can you logically argue for what you did from it. How can you dismiss an entire series based on a solitary episode?

At no time I implied that you wouldn't find favourable cases. Trouble is that TCWS is a series where aim, accuracy, efficiency and tactical acumen are dictated by plot to unfathomable heights, it's just irritating.

And again it would fall to you to show where it does this more than it does in the OT.

It is a kiddy show (most of the time, even on that GL cannot be consistent) and concessions had to be made, and he made them, notably to fit with a more cartoonish style in absolutely every single department.

Excepting you have not provided a solitary clip to prove your argument. You have not demostrated my example is in anywhere fewer in number than your examples you spoken of. And we're still very much arguing perforamce in relation to the OT. Or in a nutshell we are debating everything you are essentially declaring as right by default. Which is irritating.

No. I'm simply taking what I know of the OT and looking at cases of TCWS that are beyond retarded.

A single example is hardly grounds to condem or speak broadly of an entire series. Its that simple. You made certain claims and I've offered rebuttal. Either debate them or recind the previous claim. Now if you want to start throwing up examples please do so, we can compare and study each clip as they come.

They are things I could stomach in the OT, and I also gave the reasons why, but it is totally impossible in TCWS when the performance of clonetroopers and droids is completely pants on head retarded.

It may or it may be not. If you want to argue this provide evidence. I already have for my argument.

Clones go from mmkay to complete lolwut, while droids oscillate between the usual FUUUUUCK typical of TPM and "they couldn't even hit a planet in front of them" type of lame action.

Provide evidence and we can compare it to the OT and Umbara.

Redshirts. Without the red. Nor the shirts.
In other words, complete anons in most cases. Those who survive generally are at least recurring over two or three episodes.

Unless your hardcase or Waxer or Echo

And of course Hevy, Cutup and Droidbait all bought the farm in Rookies through that was the first episode with them, cadets came next season, but still underscores clones die throughout the series.

Against defenses completely inadequate to do anything worthwhile, but which made sense in universe. And of course, of those fighter pilots, only three came out alive, with the help of the smuggler and Ben.

My point being Lucas has always focused on "small scale" be it Rebels, Imperials dropping four AT-AT's for a ground assault or having only four AT-ST's during ROTJ. Then we have the small Rebel and Imperial fleets which decided the fate of the galaxy during ROTJ. There is simply no place in the OT where you could point and go " Oh yeah this man plans around billions and trillions of faceless soldiers".

What I say is that by having small battles, Lucas even prevents himself from being able to show large casualties that would fit with the idea of ID-less clones = expandable, and droid squads make for totally insipid action.

And speaking solely of my personal opinion I disagree. I found Rookies quite entertaining for instance. And the Umbara arc showcased the grueling heart of war far more than say watching faceless clones die needlessly.

I mean, seriously, how many episodes of stupid lame jokes, crappy action with flatline tension can you stomach?

I don't know. Against speaking of my personal opinion I see things differently than you.

I can't. I could watch half a dozen ANH-like movies and enjoy them. However, a season of Wallpaper Laser Bolt Action? Not so much.

The issue through is that ANH style movies would have no notable improvement over what you hate, well less flat jokes, it would still have inaccurate soldiers who have not a lick of tactical sense, still would be small scale etc. All you could really say is GL was in his game back then, or couldn't say no to people who were, and told the story better.

The claim of anything elite about those stormtroopers came from ANH and ROTJ. In ANH, Lucas had Ben specifically point out that the stormtroopers had good aim. So either he was full of it, or the misses have to be explained.

Actually no the misses do not need to be explained. A movie can be inconsistent. There may or may not be explanations to excuse the poor aim seen through the OT trilogy but a line from Obiwan doesn't mandate we have to find an excuse.

As for ROTJ, Ewoks and dumb tactics syndrome thank you.

But bad tactics were in ANH for both sides so that's nothing special. And as for Ewoks they actuall displayed half way decent tactics, feinted the Imperials drawing them back into "kill areas" where they began taking out their heavier ordanance and ambushing their infantry.

Well you have very bad sight then, I can't say anything else. I wonder if it's really worth my time arguing against what is nothing more than an obtuse opinion from someone who wants to deny all the bangs, flashes and smoke of the ANH skirmish

I disagree they are leading factors to the poor accuracy concerning when they are not present accuracy does not improve.

yet deny the very short range, bad accuracy and complete lack of mitigating factors from the cases I listed in the part you responded to.

I have never denied bad accuracy. We are arguing if its worse than the OT. And as towards mitigating factors I'm arguing with you whether those are concerns at all.

We're not getting anywhere and I am right.

Oh if it only was so easy...

There's no way to claim the contrary bar some massive lack of honesty at this point.

No honorable men may differ. It is not a sin to reach a different conclusion nor is it overly demanding to ask that you prove your argument.

Hey, see the picture I put above? Nothing like that happens in the cases I'm speaking of. Yet somehow you ain't seeing any difference. lol

Droll. I have neither denied the flash nor claimed they appeared in TCWS. Now one could argue that if such flashes are truly blinding, we barely see them for instance, and then we would have other instances where they don't have flashes and can't hit a brick wall or where they are presented such a target that all they have to do is simply fire and should be able to hit. Targets a sweep or two with an assault rifle would fell.

Or in very simple english we have a disagreement on the importance of a piece of evidence. Something we could debate or instead you can just refusing to ever address my arguments presented.

Lame copout. Better to claim bad memories if you want to.

It is not a copout. You claim the episode in question proves your position. All I'm asking ist that you post it.

Show me a stormtrooper from either ANH or ROTJ missing at such a short range

Already done so.

while there's no doubt that he's giving all liberty to dispose of his target as he may see fit.

As we can reasonbly conclude soldiers in line of fire, shown killing people, have orders to shoot to kill I have already done so against reasonble doubt. Absolute doubt of course can never be provided since we are not all knowing and all seeing and is therefore is not a bar that I much reach.

Don't forget about the eventual hampering environmental conditions either (like flashes, loud bangs, smoke, etc.).

Already done so. Stormtroopers fire on three rebels in a pristine corridor and miss two out of three. A not noticable difference from when they were fighting in the previous corridor.

Let's see you find an example of stormtroopers on a mission to kill yet unable to even hit a man standing up two meters from him.

Two meters might be pushing it, I'd guessed they were about 3-4 IIRC, but the performance is within an order of magnitude of ineptness. So already done.

Good luck.

Thanks

Like I give a shit. It's a cartoon, and silly things happen in this cartoon.

Well if you want to debate starwars Lucas and co have pretty much made this second only to the movies. Cartoon or not.

I can't be asked to take at face value the content of a show clearly built along the rules of a cartoon against a live action movie or a CGI movie trying to look realistic enough.

The movies would be above the TCWS so such an debacle should never need arise.

The intent by the creators is so different that it's absurd to expect something like that from me or anyone.

There is a stylistic difference but that is far and away from what you have argued in this thread.

You can continue to repeat like a broken record that it is T-canon, I'll continue to tell you that the show is written and shot in a way that doesn't stand to scrutiny as much as the movies do, and doesn't even try to.

Meh. You asked why you should listen to the series. I told you.

Even when bolts miss in ANH, they make such a mess that you can feel the danger to them.

I would disagree. Some bolts do explode quite nicely others just seem to strike and make sparks and smoke like a firecracker. Overall on the standard setting employed in that battle a blaster bolt is no more dangerous than a rifle slug if only slightly more irritating. And none of this addresses either of the three points I listed.

Pardon? You now want me to provide clips from ANH? Really? Are you kidding me? You'd be the only old debater around this place not owning a copy of ANH in any form whatsoever.

I never said I didn't own a copy of ANH. But the rules of debate are quite plain. You make a claim, and are challenged, it behooves you to provide supporting evidence. I certainly am not indebted or required to pan through a movie combing for your supporting evidence.

I mean com'on, there's gotta be a better defense than "I can't find a clip of one of the most well known and most debated sequences of ANH so what you say is shit."

Again you put words in my mouth. You make a claim you support it.

Especially since you clearly are looking at the video, otherwise you wouldn't attempt making such detailed counter arguments based on how stormies poorly do.

I reviewed the clip Lucky posted and which you claimed to watched. I provided evidence to support my argument from that clip. You then made a claim about han's gun being an excuse without clip or timestamp or anything. I demanded coloberating evidence, as is my right, and instead of I get haranged.

Or... you're only working from memories. If true, you're welcome to say so and then explain to me why should I consider your opinion more valid than mine while I actually do watch the videos before pushing a claim when you don't?

I simply will not dig for your evidence. Further I will point out the extreme lenght you went in this response without digging up a single moment to present as evidence. I mean what is that? You make a claim and I have to provide you with supporting evidence but you don't?

Evidence for orders the largely silent troopers carry out? Evidence of an idea that actually works with the plot?

Since we are arguing of things from the OT and not random things Oraghan imagines...

Damn, you requests get more and more extravagant and silly.
It's not like I'm claiming Vader turned gay by ANH either!

Yeah I'm so evil. I demand evidence for an unsubstantiated claim. Simply put if you have no evidence in postive of a claim I'm not wasting calories trying to disprove it.

Geez. I'm not going to provide a clip for fucking Empire. If you really don't trust me despite the fact that I'm just describing what my video file shows me, you'll have to look for one on youtube.

Why should I? The burden would be on the one who made the claim.

I could understand asking for evidence from an obscure episode of TCWS, but not from the damned OT. If you think I'm talking shit then so be it.

I simply demand evidence. Trust has nothing to do with it.

Haha lol no.
Didn't you read? I said five meters.

Are you claiming the second firefight I highlited occured over greater than five meters?

No flashes, no smoke, no bangs.

Nor in the start in the second firefight in which stormtroopers failed to noticably improve.

No reason to pull punches

Nor in my example.

Clone punks firing at two droids standing up behind a console. Can't hit shit.

And Stormtroopers can't hit slag either. Now we've been around and around this and I'm getting tired. Now if you want to get into a bolt count, thats fine, but you need the clip in question. But I don't seen any argument for effectiveness, from what you described, compared to the boarding of tantiv IV clip Lucky provided.

Heck, if the commando droids have displayed the same kind of accuracy GL arbitrarily dialed up as to create tension minutes earlier, those clone troopers would have been long dead before they could even rise their guns.

Maybe. And stormtroopers could shoot straight the heroes would all have died as well. And so we go.

If I could play both clips side by side you'd actually see how absurd your statement is.

No I wouldn't since I watched Rookies, I think thats the one your talking about, and to the extent I thought of it at all thought it congruent with the PT and OT. At best by posting the clip you could highlight something I had either overlooked or did not place as high as value to and would have to alter my argument.

Yes, the performance isn't always good in ANH, but it simply isn't as poor as the example (another one) I picked.

That would be a matter of some debate.

Sort of understandable when you sit in the theater, since the stormies were just around the corner.

Ah...they stay exposed long after their intital blunder to fail to kill the retreating rebels. Now I chastis them being unable to shoot all three guys but not them rounding the corner on, fleeing, rebel soldiers only them standing stock still and continuing to return fire like soldiers of old. To be blunt the accuracy even with the flash and smoke from the blasters was bad.

Now, surely enough, one could have attempted to push it a few meters ahead to that perpendicular corridor. Another could have decided to dive and offer the least profile possible, eventually trying to rotate and point his gun at the coming troopers. Far from good either. Chalk it up to panic. Stormtroopers clearly were following the order of moving forth no matter what.
They still moved as to have two men on each side of the corridor, most of them advancing while partially ducking, while more troopers came from behind.

here starting @ 4:10 or so. They fracking kinda crouched in the opening of the corridor and kinda worked forward. Even accounting for the odd flash and the smoke, less then the boarding corridor, it was still pitiful. A squad of world war II GI's could have held that passage.

That's just silly. Most of the Rookie episode has both sides missing each other repeatedly at ranges shorter than a dozen meters, many times without any cover taken, without even the soldiers attempting to lower their profile.

Slightly hunching over is hardly noticably lowering your profile as to the rest I just provided you an example of a no cover firefight at to or less than a dozen meters.

Then at random points, they suddenly do take cover, then suddenly they have a super aim, they even take their time posing and talking in front of droids before shooting them in the face, and suddenly this roller coaster of nonsense pulls you through another dive into insanity seconds later, with goons on both sides unable to hit each other at distance of something like five meters, more or less.

I don't recall them ever having super aim as to the rest what...your complaining its breaking tension with pre mortem one liners or something?

It completely does. In order for Jar Jar to be a hero, the enemies have to be 500% inept and pathetic. It's TPM on overdrive.

No. Jar Jar is a stylisitic choice or narrative one. Now if you wish to claim droids are even worse shots around him thats one thing but would require clips demostrating this proposal.

Campiness doen't preclude taking your work seriously enough as to allow the audience to immerse itself into it, you know?

Well SOD can, in the end, be quite selective and subjective. And frankly I find arguments of "serious" in this line to be of little value. Instead focusing on objective points we can discuss and debate.

If they were made as to be realistic, I would. Obviously, they're not. So why pretend?

They have a cartoonish style but hells bells the OT wasn't made with "realism" in mind. Lucas was copying old buck roger seriels and world war two footage. The only thing which can have merit is the proximity the TCWS has in relation to GL's other work. You have claimed there isn't any, that they are "pants on head retarded", and I argue that the roots of that which you complain against stretch all the way back to ANH. That if 1977 GL had 2012 technology he'd film and edit ANH closer to TCWS then not.

Well, if that's all I get when I actually take time to find you nice videos... :(

It struck me as unessential. There was no particular moment you highlighted for comparison it just seemed like you were showing me them to me. Which my liking them or disliking them would only be a subjective opinion immaterial to our debate.

Yes, he's clearly following more cartoony rules.

But I argue the things you say make it cartoony can be traced to the PT and then back to the OT. The accuracy, the engagment ranges. I mean its one thing to argue we shouldn't take the visuals at naked value, something I wouldn't disagree with, but its another to say we shoudn't take them at face value because they are inaccurate and fight at short ranges.

Yeah sure, I guess explosions, flashes, smoke, plot related reasons and all that stuff just don't count

I have listed why I disagree with your mitigating factors. You can address them or not but don't pretend like I merely dismissed your reasonings.

[Mr. Oragahn]

BOO-YAH!

Man the length of that post. I was scrolling it and this came to my mind.

I'll leave it at that and just agree to disagree, especially since we're a far call from the original topic.