Warp Drive VS Alcubierre drive

[Lucky]

If you want to show Star Trek Warp is cheaper then real world versions then you need to show the output of a warpcore. The best way to do this is dialog, but the only quote I know of that does that will only tell you what the output is when idling.
The next best way is to calculate how much energy is released when a warpcore explodes. The best example that I can think of is the voyager episode Drive. In Drive you have a warpcore explode while being used at near full output as I recall.

Figure out how much energy is needed for the DeltaFlyer to use a real world theoretical warp drive.

Ask someone good with numbers to check your work.

Compare the results.

The problem with the exploding warpcore method is that it is imprecise.

I do not ignore it nor have I argued that Star Fleet thought a mile worth of nearly solid iron was by itself up to the task of defending the outpost. I have stated that the officer onboard the outpost, whom we may consider more of an expert than either of us, brought up that he was beneath solid iron as part of his incrediousness at the damage wrought to his outpost by the Romulan ship. Clearly he expected the iron to offer some protection, how much in relation to his deflector screens we can't know nor have I attempted to make a guess, which violates your idea of starship firepower.

Please stop being dishonest. You tried to argue that the 2 miles of iron was the main defense. Had you been less sloppy you would have highlighted the fact that there was also a shield and Unobtainium armor The fact of the matter is Kirk and crew made a big deal about the super armor that Star Fleet had installed, and talked about the shield, but you tried to ignore those.

You claimed the event is quantifiable, but I've already proved you wrong, and firepower in no way proves reactor output.. Learn to swallow your pride when you make a mistake.

A couple of miles of iron is likely at least as protective as the "flimsy" nearly useless hull of a Constitution or Galaxy class I would guess, but you haven't bothered to provide any evidence to support your theory. A guess is worthless, and not being able to support your theories got KirkSkywalker banned.

This is the only refrence I know of involving photonic torpedoes and it involes a 1.8 wide crater into an asteriod but doesn't go into how deep of a pit this would gouge. We also don't have a statement that this is a "nearly solid iron" asteriod. Now granted it likely wouldn't take too many to shatter/pulverize a 2 plus mile wide asteriod, iron or otherwise, but we are far and away from a single shot from a single weapon punching its way through or mass scattering it as should be expected from your view of firepower.

Have we ever seen an asteroid that large that wasn't either solid iron, or Unobtainium?

We also know that the anemic phase cannons on the NX-01 could blowup a mountain the ruffly the size of Mount McKinley.

If an under powered NX-01 can in your oppinion easily defeat a base under 2 miles of solid iron then your entire theory that the iron was the primary(and by your sloppy claim only) defense falls apart.

I'm afraid you lost me. I don't mention Kirk's Enterprise anywhere in what you quoted.

You are arguing that armor in this case 2 miles of iron is the primary defense used by Star Fleet when armor is a weaker secondary defense, and in this case the iron is most likely the third line of defense. Shields in Star Trek>Armor

This ignores the fact that neither you nor Mith have not provided evidence that Federation ships can channel even the majority of their reactor output through the phasers.

Please elaborate. Or the work you did to reach neutronium levels of denisty, which indeed would be a very special asteriod.

First off, don't claim I said things I haven't. I have not made claims of neutronium levels of density. This sloppiness is a real problem for you.

The asteroid in "Pegasus" has magnetic and gravitational fields powerful enough to over power a shuttle craft that can effortlessly deals with those same types of fields found on Sol 3. In order to have such absurdly powerful gravity and magnetic fields you must have some form of strange matter in the mix, or something else that is extremely exotic. Do to the exoticness of the asteroid the event is unquantifiable.

In Star Trek Voyager we see a seemingly fake asteroid designed for ships to hide in you know.

Yes he wanted to destroy the Pegasus and to do so he wanted to simply blast the asteriod to space dust and stated it would take most of their torpedoes to do so. And if Riker was off in his calcuations by a couple of hundred torpedoes to blow up the asteriod someone would have mentioned it.

There are several problems with any numbers derived from the asteroid in Pegasus.

1. We have no idea what the asteroid is made of. It has to be very strange stuff however.

2. We can only guess as to what number most represents because we are never told how many torpedos the Enterprise-D had at the time..

3. Torpedo firepower has no relationship to reactor output.

There is every reason to assume the planet has the same mundan building material as any terrestial world theoryized to exist in our galaxy such as Earth. No reason to assume it is composed out of uber material that can take death star yields.

We see planets blow up on their own or turn into balls of lava because they have odd makeups all the time in Star Trek.

We know some planets have high concentrations of unobtainium in their crusts often in Star Trek.

I have no idea where you are getting the fallacious idea that react output equals big yields. We know that neither Federation or Klingon ships can channel power directly from the Warpcore to the weapons. The only systems that can seem to do that are the warp drive and navigational deflector, and both are always on. Read what I've written, and not what you think I've written. Your sloppiness is really bad here.

Except that was the plan.

-Snip quote-

For my purposes I don't care if this plan would actually have killed a single Founder, their stated plan and goal was to blast the planet and burn it down to its molten core. That is their goal and they are not firing special anti-founder munitions or trying any fancy subspace marlarky trying to flip the polarity or anything. Their entire plan is to shoot the planet and even using 20 ships they couldn't mass scatter it and would require minutes if not hours to even burn it down to its core.

I fail to see where in your quote they state the objective is to destroy the planet. What we see is a plan to bombard the planet to kill the changelings. They just plan to shoot the planet.

If the plan in The Die Is Cast was to destroy the planet they would not have planned to leave the core in tact. They would have just turned the planet into an asteroid field like we see in Booby trap. We know the Cardasians have the technology to do that.

What they planned to do in The Die Is Cast was to slowly and methodically peel the planet like an union down to a certain depth rather then just blast it as quickly as possible. Given the limited amount of time the fleet had we can only assume this was because they feared changelings hiding that deep under ground.

The planet was simply collateral damage instead of the target.

No as I have demostrated both Tain and Garak were aware and approved of the stated mission of burning the Founder homeworld to its core. They believed this would most effectivly kill Founders and turning the planet into a debris field ala Alderaan would only have been a greater boon and would have been done if they had the capability. Since neither critized Lovok for dialing down his weapons to 1000th power we can safely conclude even 20 ships can't blow a planet to a debris field in a single go.

Now you are making smurf up. There is no evidence the attacking fleet was going to leave a debris field.

Just blowing up the planet as quickly as possible would ensure the mission failed. They planned to peal the like an union layer by layer. If the plan as you claim was to just blow stuff up good then the Cardassians would have just used a couple Dreadnaught missiles.

Neither Tain nor Garack were changelins nor can it be reasonbly assumed everyone else on all 20 ships were changelings. Everyone involved found the time table believable. So it doesn't matter that Lovok is a changeling or that the entire thing was a Founder plot, the core thing is when presented with the idea it took 20 ships to even begin destroying a planet no one batted an eyelash at it.

Yes...the entire thing was a preplanned operation to cripple the obsidian order/Tal'shiar due to the resources they comitted to the operation. I have never denied or argued otherwise merely that their lies had to be believable.

There in lies the problem. The plan was to slowly peal away the layers of the planet layer by layer like an union. They were being excessively methodical and precise Had they just gone for destroy the planet as quickly as possible they would have just used something like several Cardassian ATR-4107's warheads, Gravimetric Torpedos like the Federation uses, or what ever the Romulan planet killer type weapon is called.



_____
The problem with your method of analyzing the reactor outputs is that weapons and shields are not able to channel 100% of the reactor's output, and we don't know what percentage of the reactor's output can go to weapons without destroying them. You are making the same mistakes Wongites and Saxtonites make.

Torpedos firepower has no relationship to reactor output. It's like trying to determine how powerful the engines of a bomber are based on the bomb load's explosive output or machine guns.

Except destroying the planet is the entire lynchpin of their plan. Out of curiousity have you seen TDIC?

The plan was to destroy the planet in an extremely controlled manner, and that pretty much rules out turning the weapons up to eleven and firing, but the planet's destruction was irrelevant to the success of the mission anyway.

The Die Is Cast is not an example of maximum firepower.

But their plan was to blow up the planet, or the nearest they could manage, to destroy the founders. Speed would only have helped such as simply firing a single beam and blowing the entire world up.

I suggest you provide evidence of this because I've never seen this in the episode.

Because you have claimed a Connie can tank death star level firepower. Because the Connie can be damaged/defeated by contempories or later craft impling comparable yields.

So wait. Are you or are you not seriously advocating death star level shields/firepower for Connie ships and above?

If you don't know the basic technologies of a setting you should not be making statement, but rather asking questions. Few if any weapons used in Star Trek use brute force to deal with shields, and the most dangerous weapons ignore shields like transphasic torpedoes.

The Doomsday Machine shot the Enterprise with its planet killing anti-particle beam.

Decibels eighteen to the twelfth power which some have calculated to be 1e267 Watts/cm^2 and others have calculated it to be infinity That is about 10 times what some claim the Death Star's superlaser to be. The Enterprise would have been destroyed had its shields not been up at the time though.

Voyager took a hit or two from a species 8472 ship, and those one or two shot a borg cube, and something like 8 or nine of them could blow up a planet.

A laser and likely any photon based weapon will never defeat the shields or even the lowly navigational deflector because of the forces dealt with while at warp and impulse.

It is very impractical to use brute force to get through the shields Star Fleet uses.. It almost makes me laugh every time someone trots out some (often ludicrously flawed) calculation thinking raw power will be enough to win.

Photon Torpedos have technology that helps them finesse their way through shields as shown in Generations and a few other episodes, and the energy weapons also have anti-shield properties, deal with it..

About as long as it took them to notice biosigns weren't dropping. As opposed to the 30% of planetary crust being destroyed which should have raised an eyebrow or two if using 20 ships each of which individually should be able to easily defeat a Connie. Hence my argument, when the facts didn't add up they immeditely realized something was up yet you contend they just ignored an entire plan which would have greviously misused and miscalculated the alleged power they had at their disposal.

I thought the bio-signs not changing was just icing on the cake?

Why should we assume the 20 ships were using their full power given the precision needed for the mission?

You never showed how much of the reactor output can be channeled to what system. Best Of Both Worlds would imply the main deflector can handle far more power then the phasers.

[sonofccn]

Please stop being dishonest. You tried to argue that the 2 miles of iron was the main defense. Had you been less sloppy you would have highlighted the fact that there was also a shield and Unobtainium armor

I am not being dishonest. I did not highlight the deflector or quote the armor because it had nothing to do with my argument. The argument that a base commander is incredious of the damage being done through a mile worth of nearly solid iron. The deflector and armor do not change the fact that he believed the iron added protection to his base which is a straightforward and simple argument.

firepower in no way proves reactor output..

Here

When you take this into account with Star Trek, it would mean that a planet is simply that thing that splattered on your windshield and someone's going to have to clean it up later. The sort of energy that you're talking about would literally be planet shattering firepower.

The Federation has had planet shattering fire power for a long time. It was a plot point of the episode Booby trap. They don't use the planet busting weapons because they have even better stuff by the time of the episode.

As you can see you first linked firepower to reactor in order to justify planet shattering reactor tech.

The fact of the matter is Kirk and crew made a big deal about the super armor that Star Fleet had installed, and talked about the shield, but you tried to ignore those.

Didn't ignore them so much as didn't need to talk about them. They were irrevelent to my argument.

You claimed the event is quantifiable, but I've already proved you wrong

Incorrect. A two mile asteriod of nearly solid iron is quite quantifiable and I have demostrated with quotes that the base commander expected some protection from it. You so far have not addressed this argument but talked about deflectors and armor and how I'm not quantifiying thier unquantifiable nature.

Learn to swallow your pride when you make a mistake.

When I make a mistake I can and will.

A couple of miles of iron is likely at least as protective as the "flimsy" nearly useless hull of a Constitution or Galaxy class I would guess

It's relation to the Enterprise is unknown. All is known is that is worth some protection, a figure greater than zero which it would have to be under your claimed firepower.

but you haven't bothered to provide any evidence to support your theory

I have provided a person being incrediouse at the damage wrought through nearly solid iron which at the depth given and the wide gulf between that example and yours there is a clear incongruity. If you can easily blow up an Earth like planet you are not going to be awestruck and talk about a mile of iron protecting you. Instead he would have talked about how much damage his unobtanium armor recieved through his deflectors instead of the soap bubble of iron.

Have we ever seen an asteroid that large that wasn't either solid iron, or Unobtainium?

We seldom are informed what an asteriod is composed of. Conversely things like rubble piles are theorized to exist and various other composition. Claiming that they must be iron, or unobtainium, is maximalist and a cope out.

We also know that the anemic phase cannons on the NX-01 could blowup a mountain the ruffly the size of Mount McKinley.

According to a off the cuff remark from the captain. We do have other statements however.

REED: This, ladies and gentlemen is a phase-modulated energy weapon. It's rated for a maximum power output of five hundred gigajoules. Enterprise was designed to carry three of them. We have one, and it's only a prototype.

REED: Check the cannons. Be careful down there. The blast yield was ten times what we expected.
ARCHER [OC]: What happened?
REED: Something overloaded the phase modulators

Five terajoules, ten for both cannons, would not blow up Mount McKinley like we saw them blow up that rocky protrusion. It isn't reaching to consider the option Archer was using hyperbole.

If an under powered NX-01 can in your oppinion easily defeat a base under 2 miles of solid iron then your entire theory that the iron was the primary(and by your sloppy claim only) defense falls apart.

My argument was never that the iron was the primary defense only that the difference between the deflector and the iron was not so great that the iron couldn't provide some protection. So a primitive starship unloading with everything it has doesn't invalidate my argument.

You are arguing that armor in this case 2 miles of iron is the primary defense used by Star Fleet when armor is a weaker secondary defense, and in this case the iron is most likely the third line of defense. Shields in Star Trek>Armor

No I have not argued the iron was the primary protection, as you have in error repeatedly claimed, merely that it offered protection.

First off, don't claim I said things I haven't. I have not made claims of neutronium levels of density. This sloppiness is a real problem for you.

You spoke of neutronium exoticness but being exotic for our purposes is meaningless. Since its smaller than a planet you need it to have extreme denisty to match up with your claimed firepower.

The asteroid in "Pegasus" has magnetic and gravitational fields powerful enough to over power a shuttle craft that can effortlessly deals with those same types of fields found on Sol 3.

Unless that happened in the episode you can't use a descrpency to argue for unspoken of, unimplied handwavium. Which is where you make many mistakes inventing things for an episode and then getting flustered when I or others call you on it.

. We have no idea what the asteroid is made of. It has to be very strange stuff however.

May have strange stuff. Your argument is less then conviencing.

2. We can only guess as to what number most represents because we are never told how many torpedos the Enterprise-D had at the time..

True. But you are arguing for casual planetary destroying power. Most of the photon torpedoes should be within range of a planet destroying then.

3. Torpedo firepower has no relationship to reactor output.

Yes. But I am talking about firepower which photon torpedoes clearly would be part of.

We see planets blow up on their own or turn into balls of lava because they have odd makeups all the time in Star Trek.

Some planets have oddities unreleated to what you are advocating, that is not grounds to just assume Trek worlds are superawesome and can tank deathstar blasts.

We know some planets have high concentrations of unobtainium in their crusts often in Star Trek.

The key word is some. As well when they encountered more than a stray random planet "blowing up" they spend an episode investigating it.

[Bridge]

DATA: Commander, I've been reviewing the unmanned probe scans. At some point during the last one hundred and fifty years, the fifth planet of Selcundi Drema has shattered, forming an asteroid belt.
RIKER: I'd call that geological instability.
WORF: Is there any indication that this is the work of an unknown intelligence?
RIKER: This is geology, not malevolence. These planets live fast and die hard. The question is, why?

And bear in mind Worf when presented with a planet shattering questions if an unknown intelligence is responsible rather than a known power. Impling both it is not the norm galactic wide and known powers couldn't easily do the feat.

I have no idea where you are getting the fallacious idea that react output equals big yields.

I don't know why you keep harping on this. I am arguing firepower, have been for several posts and have not directly talked about reactors save for when you brought it up.

I fail to see where in your quote they state the objective is to destroy the planet. What we see is a plan to bombard the planet to kill the changelings. They just plan to shoot the planet.

And are measuring destruction thereof as effiecency of destroying Changlings.

If the plan in The Die Is Cast was to destroy the planet they would not have planned to leave the core in tact. They would have just turned the planet into an asteroid field like we see in Booby trap. We know the Cardasians have the technology to do that.

There you go putting the cart before the horse again. No we don't know the Cardasians could just blow up the planet and indeed the fact they were settling to merely burn away the crust and mantle point against it. All Booby Trap shows is a relatively primitive race could somehow blow up a planet but the same could be said for the Xindi "deathstar" and it doesn't mean their ships could suddenly tank megadamage.

What they planned to do in The Die Is Cast was to slowly and methodically peel the planet like an union down to a certain depth rather then just blast it as quickly as possible.

Your assuming the slow peel was a deliberate move in which case Garrack would have likely raised an eyebrow on why ships were suddenly firing at 1/1000. Instead he quite approves and acts like its overkill.

The planet was simply collateral damage instead of the target.

It wasn't collateral. They rubric for success, their goal was to burn the planet down to its naked core to ensure they killed every last Founder. There is no evidence they were delibaterly dialing down their weapons and every reason to use maximum to get the job done that much faster.

Now you are making smurf up. There is no evidence the attacking fleet was going to leave a debris field.

Uh I said turning it into a debris field ala Alderan would only have been a boon. Not that they intended to do that.

Just blowing up the planet as quickly as possible would ensure the mission failed. They planned to peal the like an union layer by layer.

Rendering as much damage to the planet was their plan as opposed merely scanning for Founder lifesigns or some such. It was overkill plain and simple and they couldn't destroy the bloody world in a timely fashion.

If the plan as you claim was to just blow stuff up good then the Cardassians would have just used a couple Dreadnaught missiles.

From the episode

CHAKOTAY: Originally the Cardassians sent this thing to destroy a Maquis munitions base. We nicknamed it Dreadnought. It's a self-guided tactical missile carrying a charge of a thousand kilos of matter and another thousand of antimatter.

42 gigatons as calculated here That will wreck a world but it isn't going to turn it into an asteriod field anytime soon. The actual Cardassion-Romulan fleet in TDIC displayed far greater firepower just in case your curious.

And yes we use real world anti-matter not the few oddball uber anti-matter examples.

There in lies the problem. The plan was to slowly peal away the layers of the planet layer by layer like an union.

As I said before you are assuming the slowly peel away layers was due to some intricate plan as opposed to all that they could do in a brutal surprise attack which did not have infinite time to pull off. That is the big and large of it. Garack is impressed when he hears about what they plan to do, he doesn't inquiry why everyone has lost their senses and decided to fire at 1/1000 power.

The plan was to destroy the planet in an extremely controlled manner, and that pretty much rules out turning the weapons up to eleven and firing, but the planet's destruction was irrelevant to the success of the mission anyway.

No they intended to fire weapons at the planet at slowly burn their way down through the crust. You are assuming they are deliberately holding back, something which is never stated or implied.

I suggest you provide evidence of this because I've never seen this in the episode.

The fact they speak of destroying crust and mantel as opposed to hunting down Founders. Face it, they wanted overkill to ensure victory. It was a brutal all out surprise attack not some highly deflated controlled demolition.

If you don't know the basic technologies of a setting you should not be making statement, but rather asking questions. Few if any weapons used in Star Trek use brute force to deal with shields

Except firepower and brute force is what they use. They shoot phasers, they shoot torpedoes, things explode. They don't generally play around with anti-shield technology.

and the most dangerous weapons ignore shields like transphasic torpedoes.

Transphasics are supertech from the future and have no bearing on 23rd or 24th century vessels.

The Doomsday Machine shot the Enterprise with its planet killing anti-particle beam

Agreed. That is a high example that would require unstated, if not unreasonable, assumptions to bring it down to a sane level.

Decibels eighteen to the twelfth power which some have calculated to be 1e267 Watts/cm^2 and others have calculated it to be infinity That is about 10 times what some claim the Death Star's superlaser to be. The Enterprise would have been destroyed had its shields not been up at the time though.

Yes. Two examples.

Voyager took a hit or two from a species 8472 ship, and those one or two shot a borg cube, and something like 8 or nine of them could blow up a planet.

Since Voyager is not stronger than a Borge cube we can safely assume it got hit with a lower powered shot or something to that effect and may I remind you the destruction of the planet took out borg cubes as collateral damage. Which would be another point against your belief since a Borg cube should be more than forty times as strong as a Connie.

A laser and likely any photon based weapon will never defeat the shields or even the lowly navigational deflector because of the forces dealt with while at warp and impulse.

Allegiance from the next generation.

Bridge]

PICARD 2: Helm take us in to twenty million kilometres.
WESLEY: Aye, sir.
RIKER: Mister Worf, divert enough power to the shields to offset the increased radiation and magnetic fields.
DATA: Sir, at twenty million kilometres, our shields will only be effective for eighteen minutes.
PICARD 2: Noted, Mister Data.
RIKER: Captain, may I have a word with you?
PICARD 2: You have the Bridge, Mister Data.
DATA: Aye, sir.

So it is just a matter of brute force. Or I could point to Genesis:

RIKER: Even for your newly improved phasers?
PICARD: Maintain a sensor lock on the torpedo, Mister Worf. We'll have to go after it.
DATA: That would be inadvisable, sir. The asteroid field is unusually dense. The Enterprise is too large to safely navigate through it.
PICARD: Then I'll take a shuttlecraft and retrieve it. Mister Data, you're with me.

Asteriods can defeat the Enterprise combat rated shields. In some number they are a threat.

Or I could point to Relics

[Bridge]

DATA: The sphere appears to be abandoned. Sensors show that the star is extremely unstable. It is experiencing severe bursts of radiation and matter expulsions.
PICARD: Then that would explain why they abandoned it. But if there's no one still living there, how were we brought inside?
DATA: I believe we triggered a series of automatic piloting beams designed to guide ships into the sphere.
WORF: Sir, Sensors show a large magnetic disturbance on the star's surface.
DATA: It is a solar flare, Captain. Magnitude twelve, class B.
PICARD: Shields?
WORF: Shields are up, but only at twenty three percent.
DATA: The star has entered a period of increased activity. Sensors indicate that the solar flares will continue to grow. In three hours, our shields will no longer be sufficient to protect us, sir.

Or the fact that Metaphasic shields had to be invented and previously ships couldn't just plow straight through stars.

It is very impractical to use brute force to get through the shields Star Fleet uses..

Except that appears to be the case as I demostrated.

Photon Torpedos have technology that helps them finesse their way through shields as shown in Generations

You do remember they needed Geordie to "give" them the shield frequency right? That it was a one off trick not a standard manuver of warfare?

and a few other episodes

Please list them.

the energy weapons also have anti-shield properties, deal with it..

I only have to deal with stuff that exists in Star Trek television series and related movies. Your theroies are only that.

I thought the bio-signs not changing was just icing on the cake?

Tain doesn't act incrediously until after the report on life form readings.

Why should we assume the 20 ships were using their full power given the precision needed for the mission?

Your assuming they were using precision. An unneeded assumption.

You never showed how much of the reactor output can be channeled to what system.

Because I'm arguing firepower examples hence my focus on firepower examples.

[Lucky]

I am not being dishonest. I did not highlight the deflector or quote the armor because it had nothing to do with my argument. The argument that a base commander is incredious of the damage being done through a mile worth of nearly solid iron. The deflector and armor do not change the fact that he believed the iron added protection to his base which is a straightforward and simple argument.

HANSEN [on viewscreen]: Enterprise, can you see it? My command post here. We're a mile deep on an asteroid. Almost solid iron. And even through our deflectors, it did this. Can you see?

Hanson mentioning the shields after the mile of iron does not change the fact that he expected the iron to be a suitable defense only with the shields. Hanson had the shields turned on, and the base was a mile under almost solid iron. To ignore the fact that the shields(of unknown type and strength) were on at the time of the attack, and focus only on the iron is dishonest.

When you take this into account with Star Trek, it would mean that a planet is simply that thing that splattered on your windshield and someone's going to have to clean it up later. The sort of energy that you're talking about would literally be planet shattering firepower.

The Federation has had planet shattering fire power for a long time. It was a plot point of the episode Booby trap. They don't use the planet busting weapons because they have even better stuff by the time of the episode.

As you can see you first linked firepower to reactor in order to justify planet shattering reactor tech.

First off I am not Mith. You need to read what you are quoting more closely. Mith said the Federation should have planet shattering fire power, and they do, but never seem to use it on screen.

I believe Star Trek ships should be able to fly through planets do to the way the navigational deflector is shown to work, and the few ship VS instances we have. In New trek we even see the Enterprise fly into Jupiter, and then come out the top. They would make a nice neat hole through the planet.

Even if you were correct why should I not be able to reconsider past stances, and decide I was wrong?

Didn't ignore them so much as didn't need to talk about them. They were irrevelent to my argument.

The shields were turned on during the attack on the star base. YOu can't ignore them.

Incorrect. A two mile asteriod of nearly solid iron is quite quantifiable and I have demostrated with quotes that the base commander expected some protection from it. You so far have not addressed this argument but talked about deflectors and armor and how I'm not quantifiying thier unquantifiable nature.

YOu are ignoring the fact that the shields were turned on. Hanson was talking about the iron not being enough in spite of the shields being turned on.

When I make a mistake I can and will.

Then you will stop pretending that Hanson was not talking about the shielded iron being unable to offer protection like he did.

It's relation to the Enterprise is unknown. All is known is that is worth some protection, a figure greater than zero which it would have to be under your claimed firepower.

You need to quantify the Enterprise's hull material in order to make your argument.

I have provided a person being incrediouse at the damage wrought through nearly solid iron which at the depth given and the wide gulf between that example and yours there is a clear incongruity. If you can easily blow up an Earth like planet you are not going to be awestruck and talk about a mile of iron protecting you. Instead he would have talked about how much damage his unobtanium armor recieved through his deflectors instead of the soap bubble of iron.

You ignore the fact Hanson was talking about a shielded iron asteroid. The fact he mentions the shields after the iron does not change that fact. If you read the quote you would know he was surprised the iron offered not real protection in spite of being under the shield.

We seldom are informed what an asteriod is composed of. Conversely things like rubble piles are theorized to exist and various other composition. Claiming that they must be iron, or unobtainium, is maximalist and a cope out.

Have we ever seen a large asteroids that were not solid and metallic in Star Trek. It would appear solid hunks of Nickel/Iron are rather common for some reason in Star Trek

According to a off the cuff remark from the captain. We do have other statements however.

Archer had the data on the target, and would have undoubtedly seen Mount McKinley from space

REED: This, ladies and gentlemen is a phase-modulated energy weapon. It's rated for a maximum power output of five hundred gigajoules. Enterprise was designed to carry three of them. We have one, and it's only a prototype.

REED: Check the cannons. Be careful down there. The blast yield was ten times what we expected.
ARCHER [OC]: What happened?
REED: Something overloaded the phase modulators

Five terajoules, ten for both cannons, would not blow up Mount McKinley like we saw them blow up that rocky protrusion. It isn't reaching to consider the option Archer was using hyperbole.

So, an off the cuff remark by someone(Archer) who had time to analyze the data is less reliable then someone(Reed) who makes an off the cuff remark without having time to analyze the data in your eyes? Reed could only guess, but Archer had hard data to look at..

Archer knew the size of the target they fired on, and had time to read the reports. He should know how big the target was.

Reed was trying to figure out what was happening while doing multiple things at once, and the ships systems was compromised by an alien device.

Archer is logically the more reliable source in this case. The target was reasonably comparable to Mount McKinley.

Given some of the weird stuff(Example: Dilithium) in Star Trek the output of something can be vastly higher then the input.

My argument was never that the iron was the primary defense only that the difference between the deflector and the iron was not so great that the iron couldn't provide some protection. So a primitive starship unloading with everything it has doesn't invalidate my argument.

Your argument requires we ignore the fact that shielded iron was expected to function as a credible defense, and not the iron alone.

No I have not argued the iron was the primary protection, as you have in error repeatedly claimed, merely that it offered protection.

Only with the shield up was the iron expected to provide protection.

You spoke of neutronium exoticness but being exotic for our purposes is meaningless. Since its smaller than a planet you need it to have extreme denisty to match up with your claimed firepower.

It means we can't have any idea what properties the Asteroid in Pegasus had.

Unless that happened in the episode you can't use a descrpency to argue for unspoken of, unimplied handwavium. Which is where you make many mistakes inventing things for an episode and then getting flustered when I or others call you on it.

You really don't know much about the episode do you? The asteroid being highly exotic and dangerous was a major plot point of the episode.

In Pegasus the ship the episode was named after was pulled into the asteroid and gets stuck in the asteroid do to the asteroid's abnormally high gravity and magnetic fields.

In Pegasus the Enterprise-D's crew was unwilling to send a shuttle into the asteroid because there were powerful magnetic and gravitational fields that would over power the shuttle's engines.

In Pegasus even the Enterprise-D was threatened by the asteroid

Shuttles easily enter and leave Earth and other M-class planets, and the asteroid should not have gravity or magnetic fields that are anywhere near Earht's unless it is made of weird shit.

I would simply say that we do not know enough about the asteroid seen in Pegasus to make any honest conclusions beyond it has properties it should not if it was a mundane hunk of metal and stone.

May have strange stuff. Your argument is less then conviencing.

An asteroid that is something like 12 kilometers long at its longest measurement, and has stronger gravitational and magnetic fields then Earth is not made of mundane materials.

True. But you are arguing for casual planetary destroying power. Most of the photon torpedoes should be within range of a planet destroying then.

I don't know where you get foolish ideas like this. The standard torpedo does not use brute force to deal with shields. We know that brute force is a very stupid way to deal with federation shields.

A torpedo being a planet killer depends on the warhead put in it. A 50 isoton gravimetric warhead is enough to blow up a small planet, and the yield of the same warhead can be raised to at least 80 isotons, but a gravimetric warhead is not the standard warhead put in a photon torpedo..

Yes. But I am talking about firepower which photon torpedoes clearly would be part of.

And neither photon torpedos nor plasma torpedos use brute force to deal with shields.

Some planets have oddities unreleated to what you are advocating, that is not grounds to just assume Trek worlds are superawesome and can tank deathstar blasts.

The possibility of oddities is something that must be taken into account.

The key word is some. As well when they encountered more than a stray random planet "blowing up" they spend an episode investigating it.

The possibility of oddities is something that must be taken into account.

And bear in mind Worf when presented with a planet shattering questions if an unknown intelligence is responsible rather than a known power. Impling both it is not the norm galactic wide and known powers couldn't easily do the feat.

I was thinking more along the lines of tritanium, duranium, and other super materials that seem to be so common everywhere but Earth.

I don't know why you keep harping on this. I am arguing firepower, have been for several posts and have not directly talked about reactors save for when you brought it up.

Your argument is that the Federation has found a cheaper way to use a functioning warp drive then the real world math says you would need. You are arguing that "low" yields equals low reactor output.

And are measuring destruction thereof as effiecency of destroying Changlings.

They plan to slowly peel the planet like an onion rather then just blast the hell out of it.. Given the Enterprise-D could easily ignite the atmosphere of an Earth like planet with its phasers on accident it is clear that the Cardassians and Romulans were not using their weapons at full power.

There you go putting the cart before the horse again. No we don't know the Cardasians could just blow up the planet and indeed the fact they were settling to merely burn away the crust and mantle point against it. All Booby Trap shows is a relatively primitive race could somehow blow up a planet but the same could be said for the Xindi "deathstar" and it doesn't mean their ships could suddenly tank megadamage.

We know the Federation had those primitive planet killing weapons, and we know the Federation can turn standard photon torpedos into planet killers by the Voyger/TNG/DS9 era.

The Romulans are roughly equal technologically speaking with the Federation, and therefor should have a comparable level of firepower.

The Cardassians are not as technologically advanced as the Federation or Romulans, but are able to create self guided tactical warp capable missiles with warheads capable of destroying a small moon. The warhead of these missiles was comprised of 1000 kilos of anti-matter and 1000 kilos of matter. 1000 kilos of anti-matter is 35273.962 ounces of anti-matter. A single ounce of anti-matter and an ounce of matter was enough to blow off half the atmosphere of an Earth like planet.

It is only logical that the Cardassian/Romulan fleet was not using the most powerful weapons they could have

Your assuming the slow peel was a deliberate move in which case Garrack would have likely raised an eyebrow on why ships were suddenly firing at 1/1000. Instead he quite approves and acts like its overkill.

You are claiming to know better then characters who know far more about the situation then you do.. Where how did you get a changeling to study, and how did you get the sensor logs?

You can't carry out the described plan if you are sending large chunks of the planet flying out into space randomly. As much as you want to pretend that the plan was to turn the planet into an asteroid field, it wasn't. We even know that if the Enterprise-D wasn't careful it would burn off a planet's atmosphere if it wasn't very careful with the yield of its phasers, but we see no sign of the atmosphere being affected in such a way.

We know they didn't have their weapons dialed up to the max.

It wasn't collateral. They rubric for success, their goal was to burn the planet down to its naked core to ensure they killed every last Founder. There is no evidence they were delibaterly dialing down their weapons and every reason to use maximum to get the job done that much faster.

You just admitted the target was the changelings, and not the planet. The plan was to kill every last founder, and the planet was just where the Founders were.

Uh I said turning it into a debris field ala Alderan would only have been a boon. Not that they intended to do that.

That would most likely have left Founders alive, and since the Cardiassen and Romulans have such weapons they must have agreed with me.

Rendering as much damage to the planet was their plan as opposed merely scanning for Founder lifesigns or some such. It was overkill plain and simple and they couldn't destroy the bloody world in a timely fashion.

You really are just trolling aren't you.

1) Founders can perfectly mimic anything they want to. Sensors are useless.

2) The plan was to not leave anything other then the core. Your idea that there was going to be an asteroid field contradicts what is seen and stated in the episode, and contradicts commonly seen abilities of the weapons.

3) If they had simply wanted to turn the planet into an asteroid field then even the Cardassians have been shown to have the weapons needed to do that.

From the episode

CHAKOTAY: Originally the Cardassians sent this thing to destroy a Maquis munitions base. We nicknamed it Dreadnought. It's a self-guided tactical missile carrying a charge of a thousand kilos of matter and another thousand of antimatter.

42 gigatons as calculated here That will wreck a world but it isn't going to turn it into an asteriod field anytime soon. The actual Cardassion-Romulan fleet in TDIC displayed far greater firepower just in case your curious.

And yes we use real world anti-matter not the few oddball uber anti-matter examples.

So you are basically saying that you will lie in order to support you stance. No real surprise there unfortunately. You are already pretending they were planning on creating an asteroid field in TDIC.

You don't get to decide what is and is not canon. There are a lot of strange things Star Trek Anti-matter/matter reactions seem to do that does not seem to match the real world to the point that some think Star Trek anti-matter is not the same thing as real world antimatter. Absurdly high yields(happens repeatedly) are the least weird thing it does.

As I said before you are assuming the slowly peel away layers was due to some intricate plan as opposed to all that they could do in a brutal surprise attack which did not have infinite time to pull off. That is the big and large of it. Garack is impressed when he hears about what they plan to do, he doesn't inquiry why everyone has lost their senses and decided to fire at 1/1000 power.

You are claiming to know more then the characters in the series who have far more information on the subjects of Changeling biology, and the planet in question.

Clearly your idea is not a good one, or the much more knowledgeable characters in universe who have the technology would have done it.

No they intended to fire weapons at the planet at slowly burn their way down through the crust. You are assuming they are deliberately holding back, something which is never stated or implied.

A Romulan ship is at least equal to a Galaxy Class ship. We know that a Galaxy Class ship will burn off a planet's atmosphere if it isn't careful do to minor power fluctuations in its weapons output.

A Klingon ship can kill off everything on a planet in seconds by triggering some sort of plasma reaction in the atmosphere.

The Cardassians have missiles that use 35273.962 ounces of anti-matter as reactant.

The Federation has gravimetric warheads that would have made short work of the planet.

Clearly the Cardassian/Romulan fleet was not going all out for reasons never talked about. You may not like that, but they know far more then you do about the situation.

The fact they speak of destroying crust and mantel as opposed to hunting down Founders. Face it, they wanted overkill to ensure victory. It was a brutal all out surprise attack not some highly deflated controlled demolition.

We know it was a controlled demolition because they describe a controlled demolition of the planet.

Except firepower and brute force is what they use. They shoot phasers, they shoot torpedoes, things explode. They don't generally play around with anti-shield technology.

You are making no attempt to support your argument. In order for your argument to be correct you need the standard weapon used by the Federation to be in excess of 12^18dB(1e267 Watts/cm^2), but we don't see that.

You have dialog like this:

WORF: We have an unidentified at twelve mark four. No response to our enquiries. 

PICARD: Extend hailing frequencies, all languages, all channels. 

WORF: Extending. 

DATA: Sensors show it to be an interplanetary vessel, sir. Class seven, crew complement twenty six. 

WORF: Still no response. Captain, they are now locking lasers on us. 

RIKER: Lasers? 

WORF: Yes, sir. 

PICARD: Lasers can't even penetrate our navigation shields. Don't they know that? 

RIKER; Regulations so call for a Yellow Alert. 

PICARD: A very old regulation. Well, make it so, Number One. And reduce speed. Drop main shields as well. 

RIKER: May I ask why, sir? 

PICARD: In case we decide to surrender to them, Number One. 

WORF: Still no response to our hail, sir. 

DATA: It is slowing and is holding its position, Captain. 

WORF: Sir, we are now being hailed. 

PICARD: Viewer on.

As you can see they are not talking about firepower being the reason the lasers are not a threat, and how powerful the lasers are is never stated to Picard,, but Picard clearly states the Lasers are useless. If they were talking about the raw power of the weapons then the dialog would have been written differently. From this we can conclude that in order to be effective the weapon needs some sort of anti-shield properties.

we know Photon Torpedos have technologies built into them that can help them deal with shields as we see in Star Trek Generation, and in Star Trek a mining vessel has torpedos that ignore shields of the new timeline.

_____
We actually don't know how Photon or Quantum Torpedos do damage to a target. It tends to be both visually strange, and inconsistent.

Plasma Torpedos are stated to crush or implode their target.

Transphasics are supertech from the future and have no bearing on 23rd or 24th century vessels.

Forgive me for feeling insulted, but you seem to have completely ignored my point.

What made Phased Polaron Beams, Transphasic Torpedos, and Breen energy Dampeners so dangerous was the fact that they ignored shields while being powerful enough to damage the ship. Without the ability to ignore shields they become no more dangerous then the standard weapons.

Transphasic torpedos are only a few years away by the end of Voyager. Janeway may have traveled back in time, but she couldn't have been from more then maybe 40 years into the future at most.

Agreed. That is a high example that would require unstated, if not unreasonable, assumptions to bring it down to a sane level.

Yes. Two examples.

Since Voyager is not stronger than a Borge cube we can safely assume it got hit with a lower powered shot or something to that effect and may I remind you the destruction of the planet took out borg cubes as collateral damage. Which would be another point against your belief since a Borg cube should be more than forty times as strong as a Connie.

The Borg have a tendency to let the attacker/defender blast the hell out of its ships in order to gain data on the weapon, and Borg defenses are very different from Federation defenses, and one or two more hits like that and Voyager would have been done for.

The Borg often do things that to a human does not make sense.
_____
Basically everything taken as a whole, D.E.T. is an absurdly impractical way to try to get through the shields on a Star Fleet vessel.

Allegiance from the next generation.

Bridge]

PICARD 2: Helm take us in to twenty million kilometres.

WESLEY: Aye, sir.

RIKER: Mister Worf, divert enough power to the shields to offset the increased radiation and magnetic fields.

DATA: Sir, at twenty million kilometres, our shields will only be effective for eighteen minutes.

PICARD 2: Noted, Mister Data.

RIKER: Captain, may I have a word with you?

PICARD 2: You have the Bridge, Mister Data.

DATA: Aye, sir.

So it is just a matter of brute force. Or I could point to Genesis:o it is just a matter of brute force.

Undefined amounts and types of radiation in no way supports your theory. It does not counter your theory, but it does not support it. We know some forms of radiation are more effective then other forms when we are talking about bringing down shields

The magnetic fields being a factor in bringing down the shields would possibly counter your DET theory.

The above ignores the oddities about the neutron star such as the fact it was nearly or should have been a black hole, and the beams were not emanating from the poles.
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... allegiance
_____
Now you are arguing the later more advanced and effective shields systems are less effective then those of earlier eras.

Or I could point to Genesis:

RIKER: Even for your newly improved phasers?

PICARD: Maintain a sensor lock on the torpedo, Mister Worf. We'll have to go after it.

DATA: That would be inadvisable, sir. The asteroid field is unusually dense. The Enterprise is too large to safely navigate through it.

PICARD: Then I'll take a shuttlecraft and retrieve it. Mister Data, you're with me.

Asteriods can defeat the Enterprise combat rated shields. In some number they are a threat.

And I would counter with TNG:Genisis, Mudd's Women, Chain Of Command, and Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home as evidence that you are wrong.

KIRK: He's receiving us alright. 

SPOCK: Approaching an asteroid belt, Captain. Schiller rating three five. 

KIRK: Deflectors on, Mister Farrell. 

SULU: He's seen the asteroids too, sir. 

KIRK: Stay with him. He'll try to lose us in them. 

SULU: If one hits him. 

SPOCK: Sensor reading on the vessel. I make it out as a small class J cargo ship, and his engines are super-heating. 

KIRK: Try to warn him. If he loses power now 

FARRELL: There go his engines, sir. 

SULU: He's drifting into the asteroid belt, Captain. 

FARRELL: He's had it, unless we put our deflector screen around him. 

SCOTT: Captain, if we try, we'll overload our own engines. He's too far away. 

KIRK: Cover him with our deflector screen, Mister Farrell. Scotty, Spock, stand by in the transporter room. 

SCOTT: Aye, sir. (they leave) 

FARRELL: We're protecting him, sir. We won't be able to hold it long.

In Star Trek IV Kirk uses the Faster the light drive in Earht's atmosphere with no noticeable effect on both the ship and the Sol 3's atmosphere, and in Chain Of Command they talk about shuttles traveling at high relativistic speeds in Titan's atmosphere leaving no evidence.. At those speeds the difference between solids, liquids, and gases is kind of academic.

http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbna ... 170&page=9


Clearly you are misinterpreting what Data means because the Enterprise-D was already in the thick of the asteroid field.

Or I could point to Relics

[Bridge]


DATA: The sphere appears to be abandoned. Sensors show that the star is extremely unstable. It is experiencing severe bursts of radiation and matter expulsions.

PICARD: Then that would explain why they abandoned it. But if there's no one still living there, how were we brought inside?

DATA: I believe we triggered a series of automatic piloting beams designed to guide ships into the sphere.

WORF: Sir, Sensors show a large magnetic disturbance on the star's surface.

DATA: It is a solar flare, Captain. Magnitude twelve, class B.

PICARD: Shields?

WORF: Shields are up, but only at twenty three percent.

DATA: The star has entered a period of increased activity. Sensors indicate that the solar flares will continue to grow. In three hours, our shields will no longer be sufficient to protect us, sir.

I don't see how this supports your brute force theory? Your theory is that brute force alone is how Federation shields are brought down, but you are providing evidence to the contrary.

There is no such thing as a magnitude 12, class B solar flare classification in real life. We have to disregard that bit of information because it is gibberish. There are only 9 magnitudes per class except for X.

Again it would seem magnetic fields, and unspecified radiation of an unknown magnitude is the problem. This does not help your theory do to the fact stars are made of and spit out far more then photons, electrons, proton, and neutrons.

Given the exotic location of the star, and the damage to the Enterprise-D I don't really see this event as quantifiable. For all we know the star wasn't really a star, and the thing was really just a huge ship.

Or the fact that Metaphasic shields had to be invented and previously ships couldn't just plow straight through stars.

CRUSHER: The databanks should contain information about a process called metaphasic shielding. 

BARNABY: I know about that research. Commander La Forge was developing a programme that would implement metaphasic properties. 

CRUSHER: Right. How far along was he? 

BARNABY: It's in the databanks but it's never been tested. 

CRUSHER: If we had metaphasic shielding, we could enter the sun's corona but the Borg ship wouldn't be able to follow. Can you bring the programme online? 

BARNABY: I can, but we have no way of knowing if the shields will hold. 

TAITT: Sir, hull temperature is rising. Now at twelve thousand degrees C. Radiation level nearing ten thousand rads. 
(weapons hit) 

CRUSHER: Report. 

TAITT: Shields at sixty two percent. 

CRUSHER: Lieutenant, activate the metaphasic programme. It's our best shot.

Odd how this in no way hurts my model, but throws your brute force model out the window. The Metaphasic shields up grade was a computer program rather then new hardware or more power being added to the ship's shields. How can the problem be raw power if a computer program alone can be the upgrade?

Except that appears to be the case as I demostrated.

You have completely failed to demonstrate that the most practical way to bring down federation shields is pure brute force. YOur theory requires we ignore pretty much everything said or seen.

You do remember they needed Geordie to "give" them the shield frequency right? That it was a one off trick not a standard manuver of warfare?

The information they got from La Forge just made the already standard anti-shield technologies more effective.

If you are arguing for Torpedos bringing down Star Trek shields with brute force then you are arguing for said torpedos to be able to be able to destroy planets

Please list them.

Star Trek: Nero's torpedos being able to completely ignore the shields of the more primitive ships. If a mining ship can get torpedos with anti-shield properties then actual war ships should as well.

I can't find the rest of what I was looking for.

I only have to deal with stuff that exists in Star Trek television series and related movies. Your theroies are only that.

I've already proven my case with the lasers are useless quote, and you have proven your own theory wrong.

Tain doesn't act incrediously until after the report on life form readings.

There is no reason for anyone to bother asking about life signs unless they think something is off.

Your assuming they were using precision. An unneeded assumption.

They have the weapons to destroy the Founer's planet in a less controlled manner, but don't use it, and what they describe is a controlled and systematic destruction of the planet. The plan was certainly not turn weapons to maximum, and fire at will like you claim.

Because I'm arguing firepower examples hence my focus on firepower examples.

This thread isn't about firepower. If you want to talk about that go start a new thread.

You started arguing Mith's claim:

One requires high levels of matter-anti-matter reactions and the other requires more power than our galaxy can currently generate?

, and you will prove the claim you adopted from Mith.

[sonofccn]

@Lucky

Reply noted response pending sometime this month.

[sonofccn]

Hanson mentioning the shields after the mile of iron does not change the fact that he expected the iron to be a suitable defense only with the shields.

Well if you want to get technical the "even through our deflector" bit suggests that even without the deflectors Hansen thought the damage wrought was surprising but this is neither here nor there in concerns with my argument. To reiterate the very fact that Hansen chose to mention the mile of "nearly solid iron" means that very straightforwardly he expected it to provide some defense. That the difference between it and the deflector in terms of protection are not as far apart as you would require them to be to support your theory.

The exact ratio or the practicality of iron by itself as a protectent as not been argued by me and is indeed beyond the scope of my argument.

To ignore the fact that the shields(of unknown type and strength) were on at the time of the attack, and focus only on the iron is dishonest.

Only if I was attempting to evaluate the strength of the plasma torpedo and calculated a two mile wide sphere of iron as an upper limit. As it is I am merely pointing out that a Commander was surprised by the damage wrought through a mile of iron and have argued that since if you can blow up planets such distance would be akin to a soap bubble it wouldn't be worth mentioning. Indeed Hansen would be surprised at the lack of damage done to the most flimsly barrier since even the most minute amount of seepage through his shield would have effortlessly burned through the iron.

First off I am not Mith. You need to read what you are quoting more closely. Mith said the Federation should have planet shattering fire power, and they do, but never seem to use it on screen.

Yes you are Lucky, and I transcribed the quote correctly so you either accidently or deliberately botched it when you did your quote, and if you read it Mith is talking about planets being destroyed in collision with the starship IE "warp drive power" not firepower.

You brought up firepower Lucky in the section I quoted. You brought up firepower as support for your argument. Indeed here on june the 2, earlier than my previous example, you stated the following:

Last time I checked there are at least some Star Trek powers on the level of the UFP that easily generated the 1e267 Watts/cm^2 disruptor beams.

Supporting reactor power with a firepower example.

So yes Lucky you made this a firepower debate.

I believe Star Trek ships should be able to fly through planets do to the way the navigational deflector is shown to work, and the few ship VS instances we have.

And you are free to argue this with supporting evidence.

In New trek we even see the Enterprise fly into Jupiter, and then come out the top. They would make a nice neat hole through the planet.

And feel free to post the relevant screen caps, estimates of how deep and far they traversed etc to estimate the "stress" they underwent.

Even if you were correct why should I not be able to reconsider past stances, and decide I was wrong?

Were? Check the dates Lucky you were talking in this thread about firepower before anyone else. As to reconsidering you are free to do so. You are not however allowed to change in mid debate and pretend you never argued that position. If you agree starships do not have planet busting firepower as standard then our argument is done.

Then you will stop pretending that Hanson was not talking about the shielded iron being unable to offer protection like he did.

Pretending? I have stated Hansen was amazed at the damage wrought through the iron and that therefore there could not be a huge gulf between it and the deflector system. That the shield was raised doesn't invalidate or interfere with my argument. Simply put for him to mention the iron means he expected it to do something against anything which passed through his shield. It has to be comparable, not a bubble of soap which your advocated firepower demands a mere mile of iron to be.

You need to quantify the Enterprise's hull material in order to make your argument

No I don't. The Enterprise's hull has nothing to do with my argument. You equated one with the other not me. All I have ever argued is that Hansen expected the iron to offer him some protection and by extension argued that conversely if the firepower was as strong as you claimed it was he'd wouldn't have mentioned the iron because any stray bit which got through his deflectors would have blown right through it.

You ignore the fact Hanson was talking about a shielded iron asteroid.

Yes it was shielded which has never been denied or otherwise ignored save for not being spoken of when it didn't affect an argument. Said shields were pierced. Hansen was then amazed at the damage wrought through iron, not his unobtanium armor but the iron, which means he expected protection from it and therefore the shield could not be hugely stronger than it.

Have we ever seen a large asteroids that were not solid and metallic in Star Trek.

Again the majority of asteroids we see are not identified nor can we trust a mere outward visual inspection to confirm their composition.

Archer had the data on the target, and would have undoubtedly seen Mount McKinley from space

Assuming both does not alter he was under a pressure situation and could easily use a hyperbole to mean "big". Nor does it alter we have superior testimony from someone closer to the weapon/more knowledgeable.

So, an off the cuff remark by someone(Archer) who had time to analyze the data is less reliable then someone(Reed) who makes an off the cuff remark without having time to analyze the data in your eyes?

For starters when that first someone is under high emotional stress such as his ship is about to be blown apart by aliens and that second someone is both a weapon's expert and helped install the weapons being discussed and he answers in a more technical and explicit rather than descriptive manner then yes.

Second Reed's first quote isn't under stress at all, he's briefing Trip's work crews on what a phase cannon is.

Archer knew the size of the target they fired on, and had time to read the reports. He should know how big the target was.

Your assuming he knew the actual size of the target, that he read reports later which described such, ironically such would likely come from Reed, and that during a critical moment he bothered to carefully remember such things and make a accurate an apt description. You, in other words, assume a lot in order to override equally cannon material.

Reed was trying to figure out what was happening while doing multiple things at once, and the ships systems was compromised by an alien device.

The fact Reed correctly identified the problem adds to his corner, he obviously knew what he was talking about.

Archer is logically the more reliable source in this case. The target was reasonably comparable to Mount McKinley.

And I have to disagree. Archer is the one more likely to be resulting to hyperbole than Reed pulling a number from his rump.

Given some of the weird stuff(Example: Dilithium) in Star Trek the output of something can be vastly higher then the input.

Except Reed talks about output not input:

REED: This, ladies and gentlemen is a phase-modulated energy weapon. It's rated for a maximum power output of five hundred gigajoules. Enterprise was designed to carry three of them. We have one, and it's only a prototype.

Your argument requires we ignore the fact that shielded iron was expected to function as a credible defense, and not the iron alone.

No. I have never argued that nor is it important to my argument.

Only with the shield up was the iron expected to provide protection.

If totally and by itself iron could do nothing he wouldn't bring it up. It would be like being incredulous that the battleship shells pierced through your screen of soap bubbles.

It means we can't have any idea what properties the Asteroid in Pegasus had.

Unless you can prove its exotic in a density sense it’s irreverent to our discussion.

You really don't know much about the episode do you?

Yes I am aware of the basics of the episode. I am well aware that is has funky qualities. You are essentially arguing handwaven super dense matter and justified it, unless I'm mistaken, with examples from other episodes. So I reiterate, did the shuttles hug around any suns in the episode in question?

An asteroid that is something like 12 kilometers long at its longest measurement, and has stronger gravitational and magnetic fields then Earth is not made of mundane materials.

The problem is your "evidence" is to point to other episodes and say there is a discrepancy.

I don't know where you get foolish ideas like this. The standard torpedo does not use brute force to deal with shields.

That would be your still unproven theory.

The possibility of oddities is something that must be taken into account.

Said oddities have nothing to do with what you argued. They can not be used as a blank check to explain every time your firepower fails to materialize.

I was thinking more along the lines of tritanium, duranium, and other super materials that seem to be so common everywhere but Earth.

Even assuming these super materials are super without any refinement or processing what of it? It isn't like we've seen many planets composed just out of these elements. Indeed in that which Survives, TOS season three,:

Kirk phasers the ground, but it only cuts a shallow trench in the soil.)
SULU: That's the same red rock.
KIRK: My phaser didn't cut through it.
MCCOY: Whatever it is, it has a mighty high melting point.
KIRK: Eight thousand degrees centigrade. It looks like igneous rock, but infinitely denser.
(Adjusts his phaser and tries again.)
MCCOY: This whole planet must be made up of this substance, covered over by top soil.

Kirk and co were surprised at finding their phasers couldn't cut through a random segment of planet. (beyond a thin layer of topsoil) So I don't see any reasonable reason to assume planets are nigh indestructible.

Your argument is that the Federation has found a cheaper way to use a functioning warp drive then the real world math says you would need. You are arguing that "low" yields equals low reactor output.

No. I am arguing low firepower. Check back here my first post in this thread. All firepower examples, I never mentioned reactors.

They plan to slowly peel the planet like an onion rather then just blast the hell out of it..

What you are seeing as slow I am seeing as reckless overkill to ensure total death of the Founder race.

Given the Enterprise-D could easily ignite the atmosphere of an Earth like planet with its phasers on accident it is clear that the Cardassians and Romulans were not using their weapons at full power.

That would be A matter of time TNG season 5 correct?

[Ready room]

PICARD: The good news.
DATA: The motion of the dust has created a great deal of electrostatic energy in the upper atmosphere. With a modified phaser blast, we could create a shock front that would encircle the planet and ionise the particles.
PICARD: That would be like striking a spark in a gas-filled room.
DATA: With one exception, sir. The particles would be converted into a high energy plasma which our shields could absorb and then re-direct harmlessly into space.
PICARD: Turn the Enterprise into a lightning rod?
DATA: Precisely, sir.
PICARD: And the bad news?
DATA: If our phaser discharge is off by as little as point zero six terawatts, it would cause a cascading exothermal inversion.
PICARD: Meaning?
DATA: We would completely burn off the planet's atmosphere.

That involved a chain reaction caused by a variance of point six terawatts or six hundred gigawatts I do believe. It is hardly likely that the Founders could be so obliging an fill their atmosphere with ready to be excite particles as occurred there.

We know the Federation had those primitive planet killing weapons, and we know the Federation can turn standard photon torpedos into planet killers by the Voyger/TNG/DS9 era.

We don't know that actually. We know rival factions built planet destroying super weapons, we know the Federation could posses such weapons if it chose to, we might even be able to argue a gravimetric warhead might somehow cause a planet to explode. That is far and away from standard ordnance being planet killing capable which is required, unless you can muster up more evidence for your shield piercing idea, by at least 24th century vessels per your firepower theory.

The Cardassians are not as technologically advanced as the Federation or Romulans, but are able to create self guided tactical warp capable missiles with warheads capable of destroying a small moon.

Well for starters your guided weapon would only rack up 2 million kills in a worse case scenario:

JANEWAY: Our engines will be back online in less than an hour, First Minister, then we'll try again.
KELLAN [on monitor]: Did you sustain any casualties, Captain?
JANEWAY: A few. A broken arm, a broken leg, fortunately that's all.
KELLAN [on monitor]: I'm pleased to hear that. We are projecting casualties at two million, if the worst occurs. I have deployed our fleet to intercept this missile in a matter of hours.

If this was a notable fraction of their planet's population, say what couldn't be evaced out, you would think he'd speak of the number they could save. Further:

KELLAN [on monitor]: People are crowding every port trying to get off the eastern continent. There aren't enough ships.

People are trying to get off the eastern continent which would be a waste of time if it was going to destroy a significant part of the planet.

Lastly a "small moon" can be something the size of Deimos which is fifteen across a side which going to here pegs a lower limit for a fragmentation of 3.4 gigatons which is below what the warhead should be packing.

A single ounce of anti-matter and an ounce of matter was enough to blow off half the atmosphere of an Earth like planet.

In a single insane example and can be countered by each and everytime they were completely incapable of destroying a planetary body. Such as that moon from Paradise syndrome or any of the other examples.

You are claiming to know better then characters who know far more about the situation then you do..

No I'm claiming Garack isn't a telepath and wouldn't be able to just absorb this important data point via unspoken osmosis when they are going over the briefing of their plan to kill the Founders.

You can't carry out the described plan if you are sending large chunks of the planet flying out into space randomly.

Duh. The argument is were they deliberately holding back, argued by you, or were they going for overkill as I advocate. They say nothing to suggest they are holding back and Garack is quite impressed with their plan instead of pointing out they were handicapping themselves.

We know they didn't have their weapons dialed up to the max.

This would be you stating your own opinion as fact again. We have no reason to assume they are handicapping themselves, nothing stated that they are deliberately peeling the planet apart layer by layer as part of a controlled destruction.

You just admitted the target was the changelings, and not the planet. The plan was to kill every last founder, and the planet was just where the Founders were.

Except they were using the planet as a goal post. As opposed to relying on life signs or what have you. That their entire plan, simple through it may be, was to bombard the planet. To reiterate:

LOVOK: We know that the Founders' planet lies at approximately these coordinates within the Omarion nebula. As you can see, there are no Jem'Hadar bases nearby. This means that even if the Founders did send out a distress call, it would take at least seven hours for any help to arrive.
TAIN: Our plan is to wait until we've entered orbit of the Founders' planet, then decloak and begin massive bombardment.
LOVOK: Computer analysis indicates that the planet's crust will be destroyed within one hour, and the mantle within five.
GARAK: That should more than take care of the Founders.

So they are conducting a massive bombardment which Lovok states will take an hour to go through the crust and which Garack is impressesed with. There is no talk of careful peeling away of layers strata by strata or of Garack even voicing why Lovok is gimping his fleet or has become a drool monkey.

That would most likely have left Founders alive, and since the Cardiassen and Romulans have such weapons they must have agreed with me.

You very much have not proven Cardassians or Romulans have such firepower in conventional or easy to obtain form. We are in fact currently deeply debating such matters and I would frankly most appreciate it if you would stop using your unproven and debated theories as evidence for your other theories.

You really are just trolling aren't you.

1) Founders can perfectly mimic anything they want to. Sensors are useless.

Which is immaterial to what their plan was. They could have decided to trust sensors and do a more delicate operation. Or they could do what they went with and deliver as much damage to the target as possible.

2) The plan was to not leave anything other then the core. Your idea that there was going to be an asteroid field contradicts what is seen and stated in the episode, and contradicts commonly seen abilities of the weapons.

For starters I said this concerning alderaan:

They believed this would most effectivly kill Founders and turning the planet into a debris field ala Alderaan would only have been a greater boon and would have been done if they had the capability.

I stated if they had the capability they would have done so. Not that they intended to in the actual episode since obviously they lacked that firepower even with a fleet of warships. So please drop this incessant "I expect an asteroid field" marlarky.

As to "commonly seen abilities of the weapons" I have no idea what you are talking about.

3) If they had simply wanted to turn the planet into an asteroid field then even the Cardassians have been shown to have the weapons needed to do that.

Excepting the super rare, only one ever observed in production Dreadnought only carries some tens of gigatons worth of damage. You are not mass scattering a planet on that.

So you are basically saying that you will lie in order to support you stance.

No, merely go the least inane route that is most fair, even handed and keeps the bulk of the evidence in line with each other.

You don't get to decide what is and is not canon.

Alas no I don't, pity that, but accepting the larger evidence is hardly playing with canon. Its merely being impartial and fair minded.

There are a lot of strange things Star Trek Anti-matter/matter reactions seem to do that does not seem to match the real world to the point that some think Star Trek anti-matter is not the same thing as real world antimatter.

I'm sure there is. Most likely from Voyager but that's another kettle of fish. Be that as it may if we are to have any hope of calculating anything we have to assume real world values unless specifically stated otherwise. Otherwise we can't calculate anything because nothing can be positively assigned a value.

Absurdly high yields(happens repeatedly) are the least weird thing it does.

And you are free to provide these examples. I can only think of three off of the top of my head which directly support super anti-matter.

You are claiming to know more then the characters in the series who have far more information on the subjects of Changeling biology, and the planet in question.

No, I'm not. I am responding to what was said in the episode, such as a massive bombardment, and reacting accordingly. I similarly assume Garak isn't an idiot or that important data such as an entire part of the plan was left unspoken.

Clearly your idea is not a good one, or the much more knowledgeable characters in universe who have the technology would have done it

Except we are debating if those characters have said technology. I was holding that up as an example of them not having it. And to use your conclusion to support your conclusion is circular logic.

A Romulan ship is at least equal to a Galaxy Class ship. We know that a Galaxy Class ship will burn off a planet's atmosphere if it isn't careful do to minor power fluctuations in its weapons output.

Which involved starting a change reaction in the atmosphere and is a far cry from blowing the planet up.

A Klingon ship can kill off everything on a planet in seconds by triggering some sort of plasma reaction in the atmosphere.

Which is again far short of planet destroying.

The Cardassians have missiles that use 35273.962 ounces of anti-matter as reactant.

41 gigatons more or less. The fact that is uber scary really cuts against your argument not supports.

The Federation has gravimetric warheads that would have made short work of the planet.

They very well might, if you so desire you may post the relevant sections, but gravimetrics are not standard issue in any event.

Clearly the Cardassian/Romulan fleet was not going all out for reasons never talked about

Except everything but maybe a nonstandard issue Federation weapon is far below planet busting firepower and there is no reason for Garak to just "know" via some osmosis why Lovok is pulling his punches.

We know it was a controlled demolition because they describe a controlled demolition of the planet.

Massive bombardment do not a controlled demolition speak.

You are making no attempt to support your argument. In order for your argument to be correct you need the standard weapon used by the Federation to be in excess of 12^18dB(1e267 Watts/cm^2), but we don't see that.

No. For them to use brute force I need to show they simply fire weapons and batter down shields. I raised this in direct contradiction to the example you are running with so no I am not going to start arguing for death star yields.

As you can see they are not talking about firepower being the reason the lasers are not a threat, and how powerful the lasers are is never stated to Picard,, but Picard clearly states the Lasers are useless.

I see them talking about lasers being outdated. A tank commander might say something similar about some villagers hocking rocks at the tank's armor. Yet the armor piercing round which flays said commander would operate on the exact same physics as of that rock.

From this we can conclude that in order to be effective the weapon needs some sort of anti-shield properties.

No we can not. We can conclude lasers are not considered effective weapons anymore in the 24th century. We can only speculate as to why. You assume the shields are just so super strong nothing short of a Death Star or magic anti-shield "energies" could possible pierce through the ship's shields. It would therefore fall to you to find supporting evidence for this postulation.

we know Photon Torpedos have technologies built into them that can help them deal with shields as we see in Star Trek Generation

Which is a point against your theory due to how hard they had to work to make that happen.

and in Star Trek a mining vessel has torpedos that ignore shields of the new timeline.

There is no evidence those torpedoes bypassed shields as simply overwhelmed them. If you wish to argue they had special, shield bypassing powers you must provide evidence. Show them passing through a shield with it remaining intact and the torpedo unmolested. Show them talking about how it phase shifts through shield harmonics. Show something.

We actually don't know how Photon or Quantum Torpedos do damage to a target. It tends to be both visually strange, and inconsistent.

They explode. Likely showering the target with heat and radiation causing fracturing, melting and vaporization. Nothing overly exotic.

Forgive me for feeling insulted, but you seem to have completely ignored my point.

You brought up a weapon which has no bearing to the argument. Namely a 24th century ship, ala the Enterprise-D, should be able to curbstomp Kirk's Enterprise which you argue can tank death star yields. Transphasic torpedoes, poloran weaponry or the Breen energy dampening weapon do not change or alter the fundamental fact that phasers and torpedoes are standard issue weapons, do not bypass shields except in rare circumstances and yet are effective.

What made Phased Polaron Beams, Transphasic Torpedos, and Breen energy Dampeners so dangerous was the fact that they ignored shields while being powerful enough to damage the ship.

Or in other words what made these weapons special is they do what standard munitions didn't. Bypass shields.

The Borg have a tendency to let the attacker/defender blast the hell out of its ships in order to gain data on the weapon, and Borg defenses are very different from Federation defenses, and one or two more hits like that and Voyager would have been done for.

The Borg often do things that to a human does not make sense.

Sorry no dice. That is a cop out to say maybe the Borg had their shields off that time. We are trying to make a reasonable estimate of a sci-fi universe here, not try and make the most gigantic estimate.

Basically everything taken as a whole, D.E.T. is an absurdly impractical way to try to get through the shields on a Star Fleet vessel.

Based on what? Picard laughing at some lasers? The fact that weapons that do what you claim every weapon does people sit up and take notice?

Undefined amounts and types of radiation in no way supports your theory.

Yes it does. Radiation:

Physics .
a. the process in which energy is emitted as particles or waves.

So we have energy being directed onto the Enterprises shields, less than a planet busting amount I might add, and in eighteen minutes they'll be battered down. Which is all I care about. You postulate they can tank huge energies and must be brought down with technobabble anti-shield weaponry, weaponry a freaking star is unlikely to posses and if on some strange occurrence it did would be talked about.

The magnetic fields being a factor in bringing down the shields would possibly counter your DET theory.

I fail to see how.

The above ignores the oddities about the neutron star such as the fact it was nearly or should have been a black hole, and the beams were not emanating from the poles.
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2415&hilit=Pulsar+allegiance

Thanks for saving me a link to Mike's work. As such, while there is a wide degree of wiggle room in the exact yield, you have to concur with me that the E-D is not being bombarded with death Star level firepower.

Now you are arguing the later more advanced and effective shields systems are less effective then those of earlier eras.

No I am not. I am arguing the example you are running with is an outlier.

Mudd's Women

Nothing in Mudd's Women suggests the Enterprise could stay in that asteroid field indefinitely. Which is what you would require. Someone stating the Enterprise could go barreling through one without any danger.

In Star Trek IV Kirk uses the Faster the light drive in Earth’s atmosphere with no noticeable effect on both the ship and the Sol 3's atmosphere,

This assumes that from the point of view of realspace the ship accelerated at all which since the atmosphere didn't combust into flames points against it. I mean as it is there is nothing suggesting that if you were traveling at fifty miles per hour and ran into a ship traveling at warp that you wouldn't continue traveling inside the warp bubble at fifty miles per hour towards a sluggish ship doing a few kilometers per hour.

and in Chain Of Command they talk about shuttles traveling at high relativistic speeds in Titan's atmosphere leaving no evidence..

Which I'd argue is evidence of subspace playing with physics rather than rewrite half of Star Trek to fit with a stray bit of dialogue.

Clearly you are misinterpreting what Data means because the Enterprise-D was already in the thick of the asteroid field.

I posted the relevant portion of the transcript. I gave you the episode. You could obviously see I did not misinterpret Data. As to your images it matches fairly well with the Enterprise holding at the or near the edge of an asteroid field to play target practice. There is nothing that demands that they be in the heart of the asteroid field.

I don't see how this supports your brute force theory? Your theory is that brute force alone is how Federation shields are brought down, but you are providing evidence to the contrary.

Unless the star is firing magic anti-shield rays it is bombarding the Enterprise with energy via the form of a solar flare. For a total amount the Enterprise, even badly damaged as it is, should be able to take for nearly indefinitely. And I don't care if it is firing gamma rays, neutrinos or angry monkeys with tire irons. Only the total energy.

For all we know the star wasn't really a star, and the thing was really just a huge ship.

No. That would be in violation of Occam's Razor. There is nothing to suggest the star is artificial, unstable yes but not artificial.

Odd how this in no way hurts my model, but throws your brute force model out the window.

Except I don't care how the Metaphasic shields work but how the preceding shields work. They couldn't stop from being beaten down by simple electromagnetic energies and as this shows:

REYGA: This is an opportunity I would never have had without you, and I promise you, I'll never forget it.
CRUSHER: Some of the scientists still seem a little doubtful, but after the demonstration I'm sure they'll come around.
REYGA: Well, if there's anything I'm used to, it's scepticism. After all, a Ferengi scientist is almost a contradiction in terms. No, don't deny it. I know how the Ferengi are regarded.
CRUSHER: I still expect the scientific community to be a little more open than they seem to be.
REYGA: The metaphasic shield is a breakthrough in technology. Many scientists have tried to develop it. It's only natural that there would be some resistance.
CRUSHER: You mean jealousy. I know. I wondered if that might account for Doctor T'Pan's attitude. She's been working on subspace shielding technology for years and you've beaten her to the punch.

It took an unconventional scientist using a disdained theory to make it work rather than simply noting energies A is slipping through the defense matrix. Or to speak plainly it was a major hurdle forward rather than a minor adjustment to a shield which can tank uber amounts of energies.

You have completely failed to demonstrate that the most practical way to bring down federation shields is pure brute force.

I have provided three or four examples where the shields are battered down or threatened to be battered down. You don't get much more direct than that. Going through shields it’s simply a matter of how much energy you throw not fancy tricks or what not.

The information they got from La Forge just made the already standard anti-shield technologies more effective.

Without La Forge’s “help” they never would have matched the Enterprise’s shield harmonics and never would have gotten a torpedo through. It is that simple. The act was a one off fluke when under what you argue it should be common place. Further that we see other starship battles and they don’t involve people trying to guess shield frequencies or what have you is a blatant piece of evidence.

Star Trek: Nero's torpedos being able to completely ignore the shields of the more primitive ships.

And to reiterate it would fall to you to prove the alleged shield ignoring torpedoes.

I can't find the rest of what I was looking for.

Well hopefully now that you’ve had more time you were able to locate the supporting evidence.

I've already proven my case with the lasers are useless quote

No. That quote proves lasers were useless in that scenario, conversely I provided two examples of EM radiation beating through the combat rated shields, not that there are special anti-shield technologies. That would be your speculation.

There is no reason for anyone to bother asking about life signs unless they think something is off.

Or he was attempting to check on their progress which among other things included the lifesigns they were reading.

They have the weapons to destroy the Founer's planet in a less controlled manner, but don't use it,

Not to repeat myself but that is a matter of strong dispute hence why we are debating.

and what they describe is a controlled and systematic destruction of the planet.

No they talk about burning away the crust and mantel with a “massive bombardment”. That is not talk of a carefully controlled demolition.

The plan was certainly not turn weapons to maximum, and fire at will like you claim.

If you have evidence they were not using maximum, some part of the tactical plan I’m over looking, please feel free to provide it. As it is they were going in to destroy an enemy’s world in order to render said race extinct. There is no valid reason for them to be pulling the punches of their weapons, they are conducting a massive bombardment not a surgical strike, and therefore their firepower falls far below what you have argued for.

This thread isn't about firepower. If you want to talk about that go start a new thread.

No Lucky. You made this thread about firepower. If you want ask a Mod to split our discussion off but as I was replying to statements you made in this thread, namely requesting additional firepower examples, I see no reason why I have to go and make a separate thread to continue our little discussion.

You started arguing Mith's claim:

No I didn’t Lucky. Do not presume to tell me my argument.

Check here my first post in this thread. All firepower examples.

[Lucky]

Yes you are Lucky, and I transcribed the quote correctly so you either accidently or deliberately botched it when you did your quote, and if you read it Mith is talking about planets being destroyed in collision with the starship IE "warp drive power" not firepower.

You brought up firepower Lucky in the section I quoted. You brought up firepower as support for your argument. Indeed here on june the 2, earlier than my previous example, you stated the following:
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... 188#p43188

Last time I checked there are at least some Star Trek powers on the level of the UFP that easily generated the 1e267 Watts/cm^2 disruptor beams.

Supporting reactor power with a firepower example.

So yes Lucky you made this a firepower debate.

I was going to give you the benefit of the doubt, but this is just too much. You took the sentence out of context, and then claimed it means something the preceding sentence shows it does not.



Here is the full quote that clearly shows I am not using a weapon's output to determan a reactor's output:

One requires high levels of matter-anti-matter reactions and the other requires more power than our galaxy can currently generate?

What makes you think that Star Trek ships are matter/antimatter reaction powered, or that they are limited by E=MC^2? Last time I checked there are at least some Star Trek powers on the level of the UFP that easily generated the 1e267 Watts/cm^2 disruptor beams.

Absurd reactor outputs are something that is common in Star Trek.

I was talking about fuel consumption. The amount of fuel you would need to fire the weapon if Star Trek was limited to E=MC^2, and how it calls Mith's claim into question. I was not talking about reactor output.

In order for a weapon to be useful, the reactor must be able to recharge the energy storage device it draws power from in a reasonable amount of time, or be able to power it directly. Even a perfectly efficient antimatter/matter reactor to power would need to be fed more mass then the planet it is defending seems to have. A M-class planet like Earth has a mass of about 597220000000000000000000 kilograms if I did my math right, and that translates to 5.3675e+40 joules, and the output of the weapon is 1e267 watts per square centimeter.

That is not using a weapon to determine a reactor's output.

Later I remembered that it is literally stated to be Dilithium that powers warpcores, and may even be incorporated into fusion reactors on Federation ships proving me correct.

Dala's ship]

DALA: And finally, our Bridge. 


VARN: Is this a typical Federation vessel?


DALA: Well, the Delta Flyer may look a little worn, that's only because she's been through so much. This ship has helped fend off the Borg, the Hirogen, Species 8472. 


VARN: Most of your technology is outdated. 


DALA: Show him the mothership, Mister Chakotay. 


ZAR: USS Voyager. Intrepid class, fifteen decks of the most advanced technology you'll find anywhere. Dilithium powered warp engines, integrated bio-neural circuitry, holodecks. 


VARN: Is this a typical Federation vessel? 


DALA: Every ship in the fleet is built to exacting standards but I'd be lying if I told you I didn't think Voyager was exceptional. As her Captain, I'm not entirely objective. I'm sure you feel the same way about your ship. 


VARN: It is my home. 


DALA: I'm glad to hear you say that Mister Varn, because that's exactly what the Federation is. A home for an extended family who share resources and come to one another's aid in time of need. .

[Mess hall]


CHAKOTAY: Before we abandon the Equinox we should try to salvage any useful components. Let's start with your dilithium crystals. 


GILMORE: What we have left of them. I'm afraid we only have a few isograms. 


KIM: That's barely enough to power the sonic showers.

No matter the case you are not worth my time.

[sonofccn]

I was talking about fuel consumption. The amount of fuel you would need to fire the weapon if Star Trek was limited to E=MC^2, and how it calls Mith's claim into question. I was not talking about reactor output.

In regards to whether or not a warp core could generate the energy for a Alcubierre warpdrive. Clearly the whole argument was you arguing they had more power than Mith was willing to admit and you provided an example in which you believed would validate your opinion. An example which involved a weapons example. Your next post then directly refrences planet busting firepower. There is no getting around that you made this a weapons debate Lucky.

That is not using a weapon to determine a reactor's output.

Yes it is since your arguing for a reactor which could generate that much power and beyond. You picked a weapon as an example thereby making it fair game to debate weapons in this thread.

Later I remembered that it is literally stated to be Dilithium that powers warpcores, and may even be incorporated into fusion reactors on Federation ships proving me correct.

Which may or may not be true but has no bearing on what you argued in this thread or with me.

No matter the case you are not worth my time.

I was worth enough for you to make a reply through but I am more then willing to end this if you want to. Until next time then. ;)