Brian Young's new website is up!

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Re: Brian Young's new website is up!

Post by 2046 » Thu May 17, 2012 12:15 pm

Tyralak wrote:Well, to clarify, this is where I'm coming from. Brian has been a personal friend for over a decade, even though we were/are on opposite sides of the debate. (That can happen, you know) What I was specifically objecting to was the attacks on his character, not his ideas, opinions or methods. No, I don't agree with him all the time. However, I do feel that he's an honest, decent individual. He's moderated his viewpoint over the years, and after breaking off association with Wong and Poe, he's decided to take a fresh look at the shows and movies. He isn't too interested in forums, and he doesn't really participate in them much. He doesn't even go to SDN anymore. (Amazing how they turned on him after he endorsed warp strafing and the fact that he agrees TDiC happened exactly as we know it did.) However, him and I are working on a joint venture, and we decided to have a section set up just for discussions of his videos at ASVS. http://forums.asvs.org/forumdisplay.php ... sion-Forum
For every video, there will be a corresponding thread for discussion. If you really want to debate him and get a response, I'd recommend posting your arguments there.
He is interested enough in forums to have gone to SDN recently to reply by video to their comments, the only forum I am aware of him replying to. It seemed a friendly exchange to me.

That's contrary to two or three of your statements above.

He is trying to present himself as aiming for fairness and avoiding the stupid bad behavior from the Usenet ASVS, and while I think that a laudable goal there is clearly still work to be done. He doesn't even have a pro-Trek or moderate site in his links.

As for me going to Club ASVS, I still haven't come up with a good reason yet. No offense, but the research discussion quality there just doesn't seem as high as here or even SB.

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Re: Brian Young's new website is up!

Post by Mike DiCenso » Fri May 18, 2012 3:14 am

2046 wrote:As for me going to Club ASVS, I still haven't come up with a good reason yet. No offense, but the research discussion quality there just doesn't seem as high as here or even SB.
I have to admit that is pretty much why I don't go there, either, despite a reasonable number of pro-Wars debaters, almost little real debating gets done there or research, and only the slamming of Jasonb (who seems to act as a village idiot there) and a bunch of crude trolling on each other. Ty's dangling of the Debate With Brian Young bauble still isn't enough.
-Mike

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Re: Brian Young's new website is up!

Post by mojo » Sat May 19, 2012 2:59 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:I'm responding more to the Jasonb question than anything else. The rest already answered so unless you have anything new to add in that thread, I'm not going to waste my time. KSW and SWST are finally gone. Time to let it all go and move on.
-Mike
you're lying, mike. you're lying because you don't want to admit you've BEEN lying for more than a year, over and over again. it is absolutely insane to claim you've answered ANY of the things i've asked in the warning thread. you know you haven't. keep it up, and let's see how long it takes for that sympathy to turn in my favor. or, you know, you could just admit you were wrong, and end the whole thing.

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Re: Brian Young's new website is up!

Post by 2046 » Sat May 19, 2012 3:24 am

Mojo, I usually like you, but this anti-Mike thing you have going on is both dull and annoying. Please go back to your sporadic pseudo-topical comedic genius intermixed with occasionally insightful topical posts and stay within that range.

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Re: Brian Young's new website is up!

Post by 2046 » Sat May 19, 2012 3:28 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:Ty's dangling of the Debate With Brian Young bauble still isn't enough.
But it's shiny!

I suppose you're right, though. Call me Chewbacca, but if he dangled some meat along with the bauble I'd be all in.

As I've said before, there's a huge amount of pure research still to be done on the topic, even after all these years.

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Re: Brian Young's new website is up!

Post by mojo » Sat May 19, 2012 4:43 am

2046 wrote:Mojo, I usually like you, but this anti-Mike thing you have going on is both dull and annoying. Please go back to your sporadic pseudo-topical comedic genius intermixed with occasionally insightful topical posts and stay within that range.
for god's sake, why is legitimate questioning labelled an 'anti-mike thing'? if you're going to chime in, then at least pay attention. i usually like you, which i have made very, very clear during my time here. i have nothing but respect for you, which i would hope you know. i have asked mike to answer a few questions in the interest of clarity and, yes, admittedly, because i think he's wrong. instead of answering, he ignores me, lies, lies about lying, lies about already answering the questions, and then goes back to ignoring me again. i would love NOTHING MORE than to go back to my normal behavior. all i'm asking for is two minutes of honesty. that's all.
he doesn't even seem to understand why it bothers me. he thinks my whole problem is his moderation (lack thereof) of swst. i don't care about that, i haven't cared about swst in ages. in fact, i PRAISED his moderation toward the end of that debacle. my problem is his repeated insistence that I am responsible for his inadequate moderation there. all i'm asking for is admission that he used me as a scapegoat and continues to do so. it would also be nice if he would stop.
i'll go one further - i admit i've allowed my frustration to goad me into absurd behavior toward mike for way, way too long. i admit that i HAVE to some extent 'harassed, insulted, and stalked' him. i've used him as the butt of every joke i've made since he started claiming his failure to mod swst was my fault. further, i've very carefully studied both the rules and previous moderation throughout the history of the board in order to point out every slip he makes (due to his own frustration) when moderating against me. not that it mattered, considering he simply ignored the fact that he broke the rules repeatedly in making those slips and then ignored my posts pointing them out.
i shot myself in the foot when i helped create the situation which drove jms to leave the board. if that had not happened, i have every confidence that i could have created a situation in which mike had to choose between breaking the rules and being himself moderated by jms, or simply admitting i was not the cause of his failure. yes, this is itself one huge troll and breaks rules and i'm probably putting myself up for banning simply by admitting it. i would not have ever done it if i had not been ignored and ignored and ignored when i asked for an explanation in MULTIPLE threads and in MULTIPLE ims and in MULTIPLE conversations with the other staff. do i have to simply accept the fact that it's convenient for mike to claim i hurt his ability to mod swst when everything i was doing at the time was intended to help with that task? it's not true. i think i've proven that and so does mike, because he continues to refuse to address my questions in every possible way. and yet he CONTINUES to make the claim. he JUST DID IT in the warning thread in an attempt to shut oragahn up. he claimed it was my fault, while at the same time ignoring my pleading for him to explain how that is the case, when i keep showing him why it's bullshit.
so, now, without jms here everything laisulong taught me is admittedly a wash. with mike in sole control, all he has to do is ignore me and break the rules in order to get rid of me and the game is over. i have to resort to simply repeating my questions over and over and hoping that at some point he'll get sick of it and answer them before he permbans me. so i'm sorry if i'm being dull and boring. i already did it the interesting and fun way for so long that even i'm bored of it.
i like this place. i don't want to be thrown out. but i also don't want mike to claim a simple nine post prank which had no perceivable repercussion whatsoever negated his efforts to get rid of swst EVERY SINGLE TIME SOMEONE BRINGS UP THAT FAILURE. is that really so horribly unreasonable?

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Re: Brian Young's new website is up!

Post by 2046 » Sat May 19, 2012 5:18 am

mojo wrote:i'll go one further - i admit i've allowed my frustration to goad me into absurd behavior toward mike for way, way too long. i admit that i HAVE to some extent 'harassed, insulted, and stalked' him.
That's all I was talking about.

I appreciate your kind words, and, if you'll forgive me, I neither know nor care about the precise origins of the conflict. My response was simply based on the fact that I had not seen any significant Mike vs. Mojo action in this thread at all.* You then leapt in with the anti-Mike thing (or, if you prefer, the longer phrasing of it you provide above), and that's not the first time I've seen a thread so derailed.

* My fault . . . I just saw where I'd missed it develop from Page 5. I was under the mistaken impression that you'd just opened a can on him on Page 6 for no apparent reason. Also, I just learned of the ban. And I also just read up on the JMS departure thing. Crap. I need to get in more . . . I've evidently been getting out too much.

Still, I wish you two would just rendezvous and get it over with. The sexual tension is so thick you could make a cast of your little mojo in it. I would say I would offer my services as mediator, but the juxtaposition with the last two sentences would be problematic.

With love, albeit not that kind,

2046

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Re: Brian Young's new website is up!

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sat May 19, 2012 2:22 pm

2046 wrote:
Mike DiCenso wrote:Ty's dangling of the Debate With Brian Young bauble still isn't enough.
But it's shiny!

I suppose you're right, though. Call me Chewbacca, but if he dangled some meat along with the bauble I'd be all in.

As I've said before, there's a huge amount of pure research still to be done on the topic, even after all these years.
On what points exactly? A lot of BY's take on SW includes the EU. Without it, SW is quite limited to completely purged movies and a rather bland show for which, I think, Lucas said he didn't aim for realism.
As for Trek...

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Re: Brian Young's new website is up!

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sat May 19, 2012 2:28 pm

mojo wrote:
2046 wrote:Mojo, I usually like you, but this anti-Mike thing you have going on is both dull and annoying. Please go back to your sporadic pseudo-topical comedic genius intermixed with occasionally insightful topical posts and stay within that range.
for god's sake, why is legitimate questioning labelled an 'anti-mike thing'? if you're going to chime in, then at least pay attention. i usually like you, which i have made very, very clear during my time here. i have nothing but respect for you, which i would hope you know. i have asked mike to answer a few questions in the interest of clarity and, yes, admittedly, because i think he's wrong. instead of answering, he ignores me, lies, lies about lying, lies about already answering the questions, and then goes back to ignoring me again. i would love NOTHING MORE than to go back to my normal behavior. all i'm asking for is two minutes of honesty. that's all.
he doesn't even seem to understand why it bothers me. he thinks my whole problem is his moderation (lack thereof) of swst. i don't care about that, i haven't cared about swst in ages. in fact, i PRAISED his moderation toward the end of that debacle. my problem is his repeated insistence that I am responsible for his inadequate moderation there. all i'm asking for is admission that he used me as a scapegoat and continues to do so. it would also be nice if he would stop.
i'll go one further - i admit i've allowed my frustration to goad me into absurd behavior toward mike for way, way too long. i admit that i HAVE to some extent 'harassed, insulted, and stalked' him. i've used him as the butt of every joke i've made since he started claiming his failure to mod swst was my fault. further, i've very carefully studied both the rules and previous moderation throughout the history of the board in order to point out every slip he makes (due to his own frustration) when moderating against me. not that it mattered, considering he simply ignored the fact that he broke the rules repeatedly in making those slips and then ignored my posts pointing them out.
i shot myself in the foot when i helped create the situation which drove jms to leave the board. if that had not happened, i have every confidence that i could have created a situation in which mike had to choose between breaking the rules and being himself moderated by jms, or simply admitting i was not the cause of his failure. yes, this is itself one huge troll and breaks rules and i'm probably putting myself up for banning simply by admitting it. i would not have ever done it if i had not been ignored and ignored and ignored when i asked for an explanation in MULTIPLE threads and in MULTIPLE ims and in MULTIPLE conversations with the other staff. do i have to simply accept the fact that it's convenient for mike to claim i hurt his ability to mod swst when everything i was doing at the time was intended to help with that task? it's not true. i think i've proven that and so does mike, because he continues to refuse to address my questions in every possible way. and yet he CONTINUES to make the claim. he JUST DID IT in the warning thread in an attempt to shut oragahn up. he claimed it was my fault, while at the same time ignoring my pleading for him to explain how that is the case, when i keep showing him why it's bullshit.
so, now, without jms here everything laisulong taught me is admittedly a wash. with mike in sole control, all he has to do is ignore me and break the rules in order to get rid of me and the game is over. i have to resort to simply repeating my questions over and over and hoping that at some point he'll get sick of it and answer them before he permbans me. so i'm sorry if i'm being dull and boring. i already did it the interesting and fun way for so long that even i'm bored of it.
i like this place. i don't want to be thrown out. but i also don't want mike to claim a simple nine post prank which had no perceivable repercussion whatsoever negated his efforts to get rid of swst EVERY SINGLE TIME SOMEONE BRINGS UP THAT FAILURE. is that really so horribly unreasonable?
Well then, time you make a concise and clear document with links and all that, a bit of explanation in between, and present your case to... JMS? Trinoya? God? Is JMS still plugged in fact?

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Re: Brian Young's new website is up!

Post by Tyralak » Sun May 20, 2012 2:25 am

2046 wrote:
Tyralak wrote:Well, to clarify, this is where I'm coming from. Brian has been a personal friend for over a decade, even though we were/are on opposite sides of the debate. (That can happen, you know) What I was specifically objecting to was the attacks on his character, not his ideas, opinions or methods. No, I don't agree with him all the time. However, I do feel that he's an honest, decent individual. He's moderated his viewpoint over the years, and after breaking off association with Wong and Poe, he's decided to take a fresh look at the shows and movies. He isn't too interested in forums, and he doesn't really participate in them much. He doesn't even go to SDN anymore. (Amazing how they turned on him after he endorsed warp strafing and the fact that he agrees TDiC happened exactly as we know it did.) However, him and I are working on a joint venture, and we decided to have a section set up just for discussions of his videos at ASVS. http://forums.asvs.org/forumdisplay.php ... sion-Forum
For every video, there will be a corresponding thread for discussion. If you really want to debate him and get a response, I'd recommend posting your arguments there.
He is interested enough in forums to have gone to SDN recently to reply by video to their comments, the only forum I am aware of him replying to. It seemed a friendly exchange to me.

That's contrary to two or three of your statements above.

He is trying to present himself as aiming for fairness and avoiding the stupid bad behavior from the Usenet ASVS, and while I think that a laudable goal there is clearly still work to be done. He doesn't even have a pro-Trek or moderate site in his links.

As for me going to Club ASVS, I still haven't come up with a good reason yet. No offense, but the research discussion quality there just doesn't seem as high as here or even SB.
I guess what I meant by that was that he rarely participates in forums. People have linked him to discussions about his site, which he's read and replied to the comments in his videos.

As an aside, I dropped the "club" prefix about 3 months after the site launched. It was unbelievably corny and I kicked myself for thinking it was a good idea in the first place.

As for the rest of your concerns, you do have a point. The crude trolling and laissez-faire environment was there to encourage people to feel comfortable and encourage free and open discussion. It didn't really work as well as I'd hoped. In fact, about a month and a half ago I almost shut the site down. Brian, Khas and Airlocke convinced me to keep it open. I decided to re-structure and re-focus it. I'm hoping to attract more serious discussion and debate. I hope to get around to editing the rules and regulations soon.

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Re: Brian Young's new website is up!

Post by 2046 » Sun May 20, 2012 5:12 am

Tyralak wrote:As an aside, I dropped the "club" prefix about 3 months after the site launched. It was unbelievably corny and I kicked myself for thinking it was a good idea in the first place.
Whoops. Sorry I brought it up. I'll donate to your second round of counseling.
I'm hoping to attract more serious discussion and debate. I hope to get around to editing the rules and regulations soon.
Good luck with that. I imagine it's more difficult to change a group's subculture than to let it evolve initially.

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Re: Brian Young's new website is up!

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun May 20, 2012 3:13 pm

Tyralak wrote:
2046 wrote:
Tyralak wrote:Well, to clarify, this is where I'm coming from. Brian has been a personal friend for over a decade, even though we were/are on opposite sides of the debate. (That can happen, you know) What I was specifically objecting to was the attacks on his character, not his ideas, opinions or methods. No, I don't agree with him all the time. However, I do feel that he's an honest, decent individual. He's moderated his viewpoint over the years, and after breaking off association with Wong and Poe, he's decided to take a fresh look at the shows and movies. He isn't too interested in forums, and he doesn't really participate in them much. He doesn't even go to SDN anymore. (Amazing how they turned on him after he endorsed warp strafing and the fact that he agrees TDiC happened exactly as we know it did.) However, him and I are working on a joint venture, and we decided to have a section set up just for discussions of his videos at ASVS. http://forums.asvs.org/forumdisplay.php ... sion-Forum
For every video, there will be a corresponding thread for discussion. If you really want to debate him and get a response, I'd recommend posting your arguments there.
He is interested enough in forums to have gone to SDN recently to reply by video to their comments, the only forum I am aware of him replying to. It seemed a friendly exchange to me.

That's contrary to two or three of your statements above.

He is trying to present himself as aiming for fairness and avoiding the stupid bad behavior from the Usenet ASVS, and while I think that a laudable goal there is clearly still work to be done. He doesn't even have a pro-Trek or moderate site in his links.

As for me going to Club ASVS, I still haven't come up with a good reason yet. No offense, but the research discussion quality there just doesn't seem as high as here or even SB.
I guess what I meant by that was that he rarely participates in forums. People have linked him to discussions about his site, which he's read and replied to the comments in his videos.

As an aside, I dropped the "club" prefix about 3 months after the site launched. It was unbelievably corny and I kicked myself for thinking it was a good idea in the first place.

As for the rest of your concerns, you do have a point. The crude trolling and laissez-faire environment was there to encourage people to feel comfortable and encourage free and open discussion. It didn't really work as well as I'd hoped. In fact, about a month and a half ago I almost shut the site down. Brian, Khas and Airlocke convinced me to keep it open. I decided to re-structure and re-focus it. I'm hoping to attract more serious discussion and debate. I hope to get around to editing the rules and regulations soon.
That's a pity. The only thing that made ASVS different from SFJN, aside from having the benefit of using a trademark, as the super-leeway policy.
Now that is gone, how are you going to sell your website as relevant and useful?

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Re: Brian Young's new website is up!

Post by Praeothmin » Mon May 21, 2012 1:11 am

The suêr leeway policy is still there, but I guess the debate will be more structured...
I have started to debate on Brian's videos.
He's a nice guy, and replies politely...
I'm sure you guys would have fun there debating him...

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Re: Brian Young's new website is up!

Post by Mike DiCenso » Mon May 21, 2012 3:49 am

Maybe, but like I said before, why not have Brian come and debate over here? Oh, I read your responses to him. His were about what I expected, but it might be more fun if you provided some links to the threads detailing why his premisis and responses are flawed.
-Mike

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Re: Brian Young's new website is up!

Post by 2046 » Mon May 21, 2012 4:25 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
2046 wrote: As I've said before, there's a huge amount of pure research still to be done on the topic, even after all these years.
On what points exactly? A lot of BY's take on SW includes the EU. Without it, SW is quite limited to completely purged movies and a rather bland show for which, I think, Lucas said he didn't aim for realism.
As for Trek...
One example is warp velocity examples I am noting from TNG ... circa seasons 1.5 to 3ish ... where context provides impressive speeds. These are untouched in even the most complete lists I have seen.

Then there is TCW, which save for nolettershome.info and a few threads sprinkled across the tubes is a vast verdant wilderness ripe with examples ready to be cultivated with the slightest effort.

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