Alderaan had no shields...

[2046]

[I'd beg to differ. While, yes, vaporization (and similarly also atomization, obliteration, incineration, boiling...) is a word commonly used hyperbolically in science fiction -- especially in dialogue -- the wording will, as noted, still tend to speak of conventional firepower rather than exotic effects.

I'm not talking about exotic effects, but now that you say so I see I misread your statement a bit. I thought you were trying to pull that old yarn of "oh, when Trek says vaporize they never mean it scientifically, they just mean "blow up", so their firepower is lower" nonsense.

In truth, the concept of "waporizing" (as in "Why not simply waporize them?" from ST6, which I intend to use from now on to refer to phaser vaporization, a.k.a. POOC'ing) never entered my mind.

So, we were thinking about completely different things, and I apologize for misreading and thus troubling you with the topic that was only going on in my head. :-)

[KSW]

Except for utter lack of planet-encasing shields in canon only shows opposite. Coruscant had no shields, Hoth base had theater shielding, Endor base projected shield that covered Death Star and base itself, but not moon, Yavin IV had no shields that we know of... of course, EU-philes just tend to handwave all of that away.

Since Coruscant was the capital planet of the Republic, logically it would have the strongest defenses of all. So Coruscant should be used as an example of the planetary-defense technology they have.

Meanwhile in Star Trek: TMP, first they note that V'ger was reading the computer's records "of Earth defenses," then later V'ger notes that all of Earth-defenses "have just become inoperative." So this equates that Earth had effective planetary defenses before that, like the bad-ass shield in "Whom God's Destroy," in covering the entire planet--but the best the Federation had, even standing up to V'ger if it hadn't read the computer; and we know that V'ger had the power-generation capability of thousands of Starshps.

[Lucky]

Why would Alderaan have a shield turned on even if it had one?

If Alderaan had a shield turned on that covered the planet then 2012 Earth also has a shield.

[KSW]

Why would Alderaan have a shield turned on even if it had one?

Because if you have a shield, you would obviously have an early-warning system to USE it.
They were a rebel-planet, and so they'd be ready for an Imperial attack; if the rebel base on Hoth could have a shield up in response to a few ISD's, then obviously they'd detect something the size of the Death Star, which could easily be seen with the naked eye bigger than the MOON on Earth.

[Lucky]

Why would Alderaan have a shield turned on even if it had one?

Because if you have a shield, you would obviously have an early-warning system to USE it.
They were a rebel-planet, and so they'd be ready for an Imperial attack; if the rebel base on Hoth could have a shield up in response to a few ISD's, then obviously they'd detect something the size of the Death Star, which could easily be seen with the naked eye bigger than the MOON on Earth.

Alderaan wasn't a rebel planet. It supposedly had a large number of vocal rebel sympathizers on it, but was seemingly all talk.

Why should Alderaan think they are in danger? At worst they should be expecting troops to be sent in.

[KSW]

Alderaan wasn't a rebel planet. It supposedly had a large number of vocal rebel sympathizers on it, but was seemingly all talk.

Why should Alderaan think they are in danger? At worst they should be expecting troops to be sent in.

Um....hello? The whole mission was about Princess Leia OF Alderaan smuggling the secret blueprints of the Death Star TO her father ON Alderaan?

If they knew about the Death Star, and they were plotting to find a way to destroy it, that should be some indication that they were endangering the planet by engaging in such major espionage and sabotage.

But as you say, they HAD no planetary shield-- in fact no one did, even Coruscant.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Alderaan wasn't a rebel planet. It supposedly had a large number of vocal rebel sympathizers on it, but was seemingly all talk.

Why should Alderaan think they are in danger? At worst they should be expecting troops to be sent in.

Um....hello? The whole mission was about Princess Leia OF Alderaan smuggling the secret blueprints of the Death Star TO her father ON Alderaan?

If they knew about the Death Star, and they were plotting to find a way to destroy it, that should be some indication that they were endangering the planet by engaging in such major espionage and sabotage.

But as you say, they HAD no planetary shield-- in fact no one did, even Coruscant.

Therefore only involving the monarchy. Since Alderaan seems to have been fairly open to discussion, there could have been a majority of imperial sympathizers disagreeing with the monarchy, but not enough or in any sufficient coherent way to warrant a change of power.

Anyway, two pages for something already settled, I wonder what's really left to talk about.

[Lucky]

Um....hello? The whole mission was about Princess Leia OF Alderaan smuggling the secret blueprints of the Death Star TO her father ON Alderaan?

That is two people. You don't blow the heck out of a planet because of two people. It makes much more sense to freeze bank accounts, and install a more Empire friendly ruler.

If I recall correctly Alderaan has free speech laws, and engages in open debate historically. That would be a good reason for Tarken to target Alderaan actually.

If they knew about the Death Star, and they were plotting to find a way to destroy it, that should be some indication that they were endangering the planet by engaging in such major espionage and sabotage.

Even if they knew about the Death Star, and knew what the Death Star Was the people on Alderaan had no reason to think it was going to blow up the planet.

Blowing up a planet because of a few people is insane. It is much more practical to just send in some trooops, and force a regime change.

[Picard]

Even if they knew about the Death Star, and knew what the Death Star Was the people on Alderaan had no reason to think it was going to blow up the planet.

Blowing up a planet because of a few people is insane. It is much more practical to just send in some trooops, and force a regime change.

Except it wasn't "blowing up a planet beacouse of few people".

Remember what Tarkin said? They needed a planet to make example of, to show their new battlestation, and they needed a planet that was sufficiently close to trade routes so word would spread quickly.

These are basics of shock doctrine.

[General Donner]

Alderaan wasn't a rebel planet. It supposedly had a large number of vocal rebel sympathizers on it, but was seemingly all talk.

Why should Alderaan think they are in danger? At worst they should be expecting troops to be sent in.

If the government of the planet is actively treasonous, then the planet effectively is. Bail Organa, after all, rules the planet.

In the EU they went even further towards defining Alderaan as rebellious. There are books and comics that claim they had openly revolted against the Empire by the time the Death Star showed up. For example:

The Rebellion was already active, and as the Emperor surely guessed, I was not the only young senator involved. My father had barely thrown in his open support when I was captured by the Emperor's henchman, Lord Darth Vader, and taken aboard his first Death Star.

TYCHO: I was serving in the Imperial Navy when the pacifists revolted on Alderaan, my home planet.

(It should be noted the second quote is of a guy knowingly telling lies. In reality, according to the same comic, Tycho was conscripted into the Alderaan Navy, not the Empire. All the same, he clearly expects his story to be believed, which indicates he didn't make up the bit about Alderaan's rebellion.)

So Alderaan appears to have been officially hostile by that time, unless there's other higher canon that contradicts. Though total planetary destruction is of course still an unnecessary overreaction, to say the least.

[Lucky]

Alderaan wasn't a rebel planet. It supposedly had a large number of vocal rebel sympathizers on it, but was seemingly all talk.

Why should Alderaan think they are in danger? At worst they should be expecting troops to be sent in.

If the government of the planet is actively treasonous, then the planet effectively is. Bail Organa, after all, rules the planet.

The problem is that the Empire could not prove the royal family of Alderaan was part of the Rebellion. If the Empire could have proven treason then the beginning of Episode: 4 makes no sense.

In the EU they went even further towards defining Alderaan as rebellious. There are books and comics that claim they had openly revolted against the Empire by the time the Death Star showed up. For example:

The Rebellion was already active, and as the Emperor surely guessed, I was not the only young senator involved. My father had barely thrown in his open support when I was captured by the Emperor's henchman, Lord Darth Vader, and taken aboard his first Death Star.

TYCHO: I was serving in the Imperial Navy when the pacifists revolted on Alderaan, my home planet.

(It should be noted the second quote is of a guy knowingly telling lies. In reality, according to the same comic, Tycho was conscripted into the Alderaan Navy, not the Empire. All the same, he clearly expects his story to be believed, which indicates he didn't make up the bit about Alderaan's rebellion.)

So Alderaan appears to have been officially hostile by that time, unless there's other higher canon that contradicts. Though total planetary destruction is of course still an unnecessary overreaction, to say the least.

The Truce At Bakura page 95 quote kind of conflicts with the beginning of Episode:4. Leia logically should not have expected any legal protection. There wouldn't have been a senator from Alderaan then after all.

I'm trying to figure out what pacifists could do that the Empire would care about?

[KSW]

Um....hello? The whole mission was about Princess Leia OF Alderaan smuggling the secret blueprints of the Death Star TO her father ON Alderaan?

That is two people. You don't blow the heck out of a planet because of two people. It makes much more sense to freeze bank accounts, and install a more Empire friendly ruler.

If I recall correctly Alderaan has free speech laws, and engages in open debate historically. That would be a good reason for Tarken to target Alderaan actually.

If they knew about the Death Star, and they were plotting to find a way to destroy it, that should be some indication that they were endangering the planet by engaging in such major espionage and sabotage.

Even if they knew about the Death Star, and knew what the Death Star Was the people on Alderaan had no reason to think it was going to blow up the planet.

Blowing up a planet because of a few people is insane. It is much more practical to just send in some trooops, and force a regime change.

Right, and then fight the rebel underground indefinitely.
The Empire would say that they were trying to SAVE lives by bringing the war to a quick end.

[Lucky]

Right, and then fight the rebel underground indefinitely.
The Empire would say that they were trying to SAVE lives by bringing the war to a quick end.

The Empire would have to deal with that no matter what. The Rebel movement was everywhere by that time.

The rebellion didn't start on Alderaan, and was not centered there.

[KSW]

Right, and then fight the rebel underground indefinitely.
The Empire would say that they were trying to SAVE lives by bringing the war to a quick end.

The Empire would have to deal with that no matter what. The Rebel movement was everywhere by that time.

The rebellion didn't start on Alderaan, and was not centered there.

No, but it was heavily involved at the top levels.
You're forgetting the purpose of the Death Star: FEAR; after Alderaan, rebel-sympathizers would supposedly stop supporting the Rebel Alliance, out of fear of the same thing happening to them.

[General Donner]

The Truce At Bakura page 95 quote kind of conflicts with the beginning of Episode:4. Leia logically should not have expected any legal protection. There wouldn't have been a senator from Alderaan then after all.

Depending on how their FTL comms work, neither Vader nor Leia may yet have been aware of Alderaan rebelling at that point, even if they had already declared their independence. The message might take some time to reach them.

I'm trying to figure out what pacifists could do that the Empire would care about?

Obviously they would be militant pacifists, if they were rebelling in the first place.

In context, I think the dialogue was referring to the officially pacifist but not entirely demilitarized Alderaani government. The guy's cover was posing as an Alderaani expatriate loyal to the Empire, who blamed the Organas for his planet's destruction.