Vaders fleet from Empire vs DS9

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Re: Vaders fleet from Empire vs DS9

Post by Mike DiCenso » Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:08 pm

Praeothmin wrote:Mike, the Troll is trolling again, ignoring evidence which was shown to him many times, indicating his wanking is false:
Vader's fleet microjumps a few million kilometers away, well outside of the range of Trek ships, and bombards DS9 until it is destroyed. Since DS9 is a (relatively) stationary target, there is no range issue. Since Trek ships IN FUCKING COMBAT never move at more than a few kilometers per second, they can't reach the fleet in any reasonable amount of time, nor can they magically intercept the moon destroying (FOTJ: Ascension) baradium warheads the fleet could be loaded with because they don't use their missile-shooting-down powers to reliably hit slow moving fighters IN ACTUAL CANON.
It is clear he will never learn anything...
I know. But you chose not to be a moderator anymore, and I'm a bit occupied with other things right now. Until then, I'm going to let him sink himself just like I did last time.
-Mike
Last edited by Mike DiCenso on Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Vaders fleet from Empire vs DS9

Post by Praeothmin » Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:29 pm

It's ok, I just wanted to make sure you saw his Trolling...

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Re: Vaders fleet from Empire vs DS9

Post by Mike DiCenso » Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:55 pm

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:What, Breetai, is the point of making multiple copies of "SW fleet vs ST fleet" with completely irrelevant variations over and over again?
Much like the way you do? If you don't like this thread, don't participate, no one is forcing you to do anything.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote:Vader's fleet microjumps a few million kilometers away, well outside of the range of Trek ships, and bombards DS9 until it is destroyed. Since DS9 is a (relatively) stationary target, there is no range issue. Since Trek ships IN FUCKING COMBAT never move at more than a few kilometers per second, they can't reach the fleet in any reasonable amount of time, nor can they magically intercept the moon destroying (FOTJ: Ascension) baradium warheads the fleet could be loaded with because they don't use their missile-shooting-down powers to reliably hit slow moving fighters IN ACTUAL CANON.
Proof they can hit anything from that distance of that size? Conversely we have seen a Constitution-class starship hit the 1.5 meter tall x .3 meter wide Nomad probe with a photon torpedo from 90,000 kilometers distance while carrying out evasive maneuvers in TOS' "The Changeling". Also in TOS we have the Enterprise hit Lazarus' car-sized timeship sitting on the surface of a planet from visually what appears to be geosynchronous orbit:

http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... or_377.JPG
http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... or_379.JPG
StarWarsStarTrek wrote:Since the Lando Calrissian novels establish that cruisers can have equipped on them "continent destroying hellhounds", presumably the freaking Executor would be equipped with even more powerful than tiny cruisers. And since the Executor has the shield heat dissipation of "a medium sized star", and imperial star destroyers can turn planets' surfaces to molten slag (figurative or literal is still > durability of DS9) and wipe out all natural resources on a planet (including oil deposits at the bottom of the ocean)...
Which we never, ever see used in the highest TCW or movie canon for SW ships when it would be highly advantageous. In fact, that's all contradicted by TCW now since we know that 100 megatons of explosive force is considered a huge number in SW. We never see shielding that high ever, especially since the shields of an ISD can be knocked out by an ordinary star as was the case with the Judicator at Nklon in "Heir to the Empire", and much of it's hull fittings and more burned right off.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote:And since, unlike Trek, SW vessels have shown to actually use high acceleration manuvers on the tactical level...
This is blatantly false and is more proof that you have ignored evidence, which would be grounds for a warning. Examples like TNG's "The Wounded" (the USS Phoenix jumps out of a 200,000 km weapons range in under 3 seconds) and TOS' "The Changeling" as well as "Balance of Terror" (the Enterprise stays out of the Romulan BoP's weapons range using her superior maneuverability and speed) disprove this.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote:The Falcon approaching the Death Star in ANH

The Death Star circumnavigating Yavin (in this context, whether you think that the

Death Star used magic mass lightening techniques is irrelevant)

The ISDs circumnavigating Endor in seconds in RotJ

The Falcon escaping the Death Star's destruction in RotJ

Too many EU examples to reference...such as tactical maneuvers in battle involving circumnavigating planets and going below the star system's plane on a whim, or X wing fighters doing attack runs at relativistic speeds
The first and second examples are not nearly as impressive as you make them out to be and you have not provided any analysis of the visuals of the Falcon's approach to the Death Star to support your case. How fast is the Falcon going? Same thing with the Falcon escaping the second Death Star's destruction in RoTJ.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote:...the ISD's can keep on backpedaling so that the hulking ST vessels never catch up with them and sending starfighters (each potentially equipped with thermonuclear warheads) to harass them.
The TNG episode "The Wounded", as well as various TOS and DS9 episodes contradict that claim, and never anywhere in any SW movie and the second highest TCW canon is a capital ship shown conducting those kinds of maneuvers. A microwarp jump from Earth's Moon to Mars is demonstrated by an old mining ship in ST:ENT's "Demons", etc.

On the other hand, in the highest canon of the SW movies and TCW, almost no one ever makes use of such weapons, the exception so far being Jango Fett in AoTC. And as noted above, a big deal was made over Umbaran long-range missiles with 100 megatons. By comparison, the long-range Cardassian Dreadnaught missile had 2,000 kgs of antimatter in it's warhead, which would yield around 43 gigatons.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote:And before you scream "warp!", the borg cube advancing towards Earth could really have benefited from a micro-warp, couldn't it?
Why? The Borg were systematically destroying defenses on their way. That's a very logical thing to do since the ultimate assimilation of the rest of the Federation and the Alpha quadrant is the goal.
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Re: Vaders fleet from Empire vs DS9

Post by KSW » Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:14 am

When have we ever seen on-screen evidence of a "micro-jump" by a SW ship?
In ANH, Han Solo is being pelted by ISD's, and he has to wait for the computer to lay in a course to Alderaan; it would seem pretty silly to do that, if he could just "micro-jump" away.

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Re: Vaders fleet from Empire vs DS9

Post by Cocytus » Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:29 am

And we do have a documented instance of a warp microjump from "By Inferno's Light," when the Defiant goes to warp in-system to stop the Bashir Changeling from destroying the Bajoran sun with a trilithium device.

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ght333.jpg

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ght334.jpg

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ght335.jpg

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ght336.jpg

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Re: Vaders fleet from Empire vs DS9

Post by Mike DiCenso » Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:15 am

In addition to that example and the ST:ENT "Demons" one, the Picard Maneuver from TNG's "The Battle" is another example of a micro-warp jump.
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Re: Vaders fleet from Empire vs DS9

Post by StarWarsStarTrek » Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:01 pm

Why? The Borg were systematically destroying defenses on their way. That's a very logical thing to do since the ultimate assimilation of the rest of the Federation and the Alpha quadrant is the goal.
No, it's a very stupid thing to do, and only failed to fail because the Federation engaged the borg cube at point blank range instead of blasting them away from hundreds of thousands of kilometers away. Hey Mike, honestly, do you have any in universe justification for this fact that works with BVR Trek ranges?
This is blatantly false and is more proof that you have ignored evidence, which would be grounds for a warning. Examples like TNG's "The Wounded" (the USS Phoenix jumps out of a 200,000 km weapons range in under 3 seconds) and TOS' "The Changeling" as well as "Balance of Terror" (the Enterprise stays out of the Romulan BoP's weapons range using her superior maneuverability and speed) disprove this.
Sure, even though you fail to explain to me when this has ever been provided to me before. Give me scripts, please. Or video.

The first and second examples are not nearly as impressive as you make them out to be and you have not provided any analysis of the visuals of the Falcon's approach to the Death Star to support your case. How fast is the Falcon going? Same thing with the Falcon escaping the second Death Star's destruction in RoTJ.
I could cite a spacebattles.com calculations from a professional photographer explaining that the Death Star's appearance implied a mean velocity of 110 kilometers per second, but all you really need to know is that the Death Star went from being too tiny to see to filling up the entire screen within minutes. Now the Earth, correct me if I'm wrong, can still be seen from Mars, and estimates to get there using the fastest known propulsion systems is months.
On the other hand, in the highest canon of the SW movies and TCW, almost no one ever makes use of such weapons, the exception so far being Jango Fett in AoTC.
Blatantly false, as has been provided to you multiple times, in RotJ thermonuclear weapons are used, as well as in TPM, RotS novel and various EU sources.

And a single use is enough, the "exception" is still evidence.
In addition to that example and the ST:ENT "Demons" one, the Picard Maneuver from TNG's "The Battle" is another example of a micro-warp jump.
-Mike
Yes, and it was such an ingenous maneuver to them that it got its own name after Picard, rather than his crew questioning why he would use a tactic that only a bunch of idiot writers for a 20th century sci fi series would think of.

Remember that, in most Trek space battles, they line up in vertical walls and charge at each other in this fashion. Now you can assign whatever derogatory terms you want to Wars tactics, but aside from Coruscant (which, as I have explained 1 million and seven times, was a special occurence) and TCW battles (whose tactics contradict RotJ and are still superior to vertical walls of suicide), Wars battles more closely resemble a modern deep blue shootout rather than a bronze age battle, and even that is being generous to Trek.

Please, Mike, if Trek vessels really are as accurate as you claim they are, explain why in Nemesis, cloaked ships ambushing the Enterprise do it from such a close distance that the Enterprise was hitting them by accident? Or why, in the Dominion battles, both battle lines regularly pass right through one another and come out somewhat intact?
Which we never, ever see used in the highest TCW or movie canon for SW ships when it would be highly advantageous.
Since when? How do you know just from the statement above that the turbolasers being used at Endor weren't continent destroying? Oh, no, you don't. And the Death Star's superlaser (which was not the first, as Mon Monmtha made clear) was certainly continent destroying.
In fact, that's all contradicted by TCW now since we know that 100 megatons of explosive force is considered a huge number in SW.
Brilliant source you cited here. Whatever episode you are referring to is contradicted by the RotJ novel, where thermonuclear fireworks are harmless enough so that Ackbar can stand in front of a window and only feel the ship getting rocked.
We never see shielding that high ever,
Death Star's shielding, which was "rudimentary" according to the same novel (Death Star), deflected fragments the size of mountains presumably moving at at least escape velocity.

And I've stated this piece of evidence multiple times before. Feel free to show me where you have not-ignored it.
especially since the shields of an ISD can be knocked out by an ordinary star as was the case with the Judicator at Nklon in "Heir to the Empire",
Don't get into this. I have much more ammunition that you do in Trek ships getting screwed over by ridiculously low yields of radiation, like when the Enterprise could only last 18 minutes at 250 million kilometers from a pulsar, which, assuming a shield bubble 50 meters off the hull, with a irrelevant margin of error, equates to...

....

...

wait for it...

half a kiloton.

Congratulations.

This is less than a weather shield used by a backwater, half-assed group of working class miners in Star Wars: Gambit (a Clone Wars novel). Said weather shield stopped a powerful storm powerful enough to disinegrate several Jedi padawans, and for Obi Wan to doubt if even Yoda could hold it off for long (well, until the shields malfunctioned). After a few on the fly adjustments by Anakin, the shield withstand a week (or so) of constant bombardment from several hundred battle droids.

A few other points...

1. That SW ships can hit stationary targets as small as DS9 - Rebel Dream. ANH (tractor beaming the Falcon). In fact, the ability of ships to aim the right direction for cross galactic hyperdrive runs and drop out within a few hundred kilometers of a planet or even a ship is almost proof enough, since the precision of their instrumentation would have to be to the trillions or quadrillions of digits.

2. That SW ships use their speed tactically - already explained, RotJ

3. That the ANH circumnavigation of Yavin is valid - apparently, some of you feel that, because the imperial display and the Rebel display do not exactly match one another, both can be completely dismissed as inaccurate and the Death Star can be assumed to not have circumnavigated Yavin, even though said event is crucial to the entire plot. The Rebels were on the "far side of the gas giant" according to the dialogue. Take "far side" as 180 degrees [Rebel display] or 150 degrees [Imperial display] , it doesn't matter. We see X wing fighters clearly traveling around the gas giant to meet the Death Star.

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Re: Vaders fleet from Empire vs DS9

Post by mojo » Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:26 am

ORAGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHN!

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Re: Vaders fleet from Empire vs DS9

Post by Mike DiCenso » Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:41 am

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:Don't get into this. I have much more ammunition that you do in Trek ships getting screwed over by ridiculously low yields of radiation, like when the Enterprise could only last 18 minutes at 250 million kilometers from a pulsar, which, assuming a shield bubble 50 meters off the hull, with a irrelevant margin of error, equates to...
Your calculations, please? A pulsar can be as much as 100,000 times more energetic than the output of Sol. Besides which, you are wrong about the distance:


PICARD 2: Helm take us in to twenty million kilometres.

WESLEY: Aye, sir.

RIKER: Mister Worf, divert enough power to the shields to offset the increased radiation and magnetic fields.

DATA: Sir, at twenty million kilometres, our shields will only be effective for eighteen minutes.

PICARD 2: Noted, Mister Data.


You were off by 12.5 times the actual stated distance. Not to mention, the E-D was being struck by the emission beam from the pulsar as well, too:

Image

Image

All your other examples are equally bogus since it has been hammered into you before in the "Star Wars vs Star Trek shields" thread from nearly a year ago, particularly here

So don't even go there, or I'll hand you a warning for ignoring this as well, too. There is only so much of this that is you being stubborn, and then when you essentially make stuff up, I can only conclude you are trolling.
-Mike

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Re: Vaders fleet from Empire vs DS9

Post by Mike DiCenso » Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:08 am

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:Blatantly false, as has been provided to you multiple times, in RotJ thermonuclear weapons are used, as well as in TPM, RotS novel and various EU sources.

And a single use is enough, the "exception" is still evidence.
In the RoTJ novelization, yes. But please note that the highest canon of the movies override that as well TCW, and no, the exception is not the rule. It would then be up to you to explain why we don't see weaponry like that deployed more often as well. The TPM novelization has reference to thermonuclear weapons? Where? Quote and citations are required here.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote:Please, Mike, if Trek vessels really are as accurate as you claim they are, explain why in Nemesis, cloaked ships ambushing the Enterprise do it from such a close distance that the Enterprise was hitting them by accident? Or why, in the Dominion battles, both battle lines regularly pass right through one another and come out somewhat intact?
As I claim!? I linked to two images of the Enterprise hitting an object the size of a smalll compact car from tens of thousands of km away! But if you really insist on more:

KIRK: Helmsmen, I said evasive manoeuvres.

SULU: We're losing power, sir.

KIRK: Scotty?

SCOTT: I'm having to divert the warp engine power into the shields, sir, if you want the protection.

KIRK: Mister Spock, speed of those bolts.

SPOCK: Approximately warp fifteen, Captain.

KIRK:Then we can't out run them. Good, Scotty. You're doing the right thing. (another hit) Source, Spock.

SPOCK: Unknown, Captain. Nothing within sensor range. (a third bolt approaching) Something now, Captain. Very small. Bearing one two three degrees, mark one eight. Range ninety thousand kilometres.

KIRK: That's our target, Mister Sulu. Prepare photon torpedo.
(The third bolt hits)

SCOTT: Shields still holding, sir, but the drain on the engines is reaching the critical point. Ach, we lost warp manoeuvreing power. Switching to impulse.

SULU: Photon torpedoes armed, sir.

KIRK: Has the target changed location, Mister Spock?

SPOCK: No, sir. Holding steady.

KIRK: Ready photon torpedo number two, Mister Sulu.

SULU: Ready, sir.

KIRK: Fire.

SULU: Torpedo away. (a pause, then a flash) Direct hit.

SPOCK: No effect. Target absorbed full energy of our torpedo.


Want more?
StarWarsStarTrek wrote:Death Star's shielding, which was "rudimentary" according to the same novel (Death Star), deflected fragments the size of mountains presumably moving at at least escape velocity.


And I've stated this piece of evidence multiple times before. Feel free to show me where you have not-ignored it.
Show me where in all the highest canon of the movies and TCW that they deflect such objects. The answer is that they don't. See, the difference between you and everyone else here is that we don't ignore the highest canon material where there is a clear contradiction. ISDs being damaged and destroyed by small, explosive low-velocity rocks is not helping your case, as is the fact that Death Star shields powerful enough to deflect "mountain sized rocks" would stop X-wings and Y-wings in their tracks with ease. The only time we see anything like that in the movies is a special shield projected up from Endor around the second Death Star.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote:1. That SW ships can hit stationary targets as small as DS9 - Rebel Dream. ANH (tractor beaming the Falcon). In fact, the ability of ships to aim the right direction for cross galactic hyperdrive runs and drop out within a few hundred kilometers of a planet or even a ship is almost proof enough, since the precision of their instrumentation would have to be to the trillions or quadrillions of digits.
The Death Star tractor beam is an unknown quantity. There's also a problem; if it could hit the Falcon with ease, why not use it to grab up and hold or shake apart the X-wings and Y-wings sent against the Death Star? Hell, why not use the tactic on the second one? Furthermore, even if we went with your assertion, the capability is limited or does not exist in other common starships like Type-I ISDs, since the Devastator could not lock onto the Tantive in ANH, nor did any of them attempt tractor locks on the Falcon.

Type-II ISDs don't fair any better since the Avenger and prior to that several other ISDs of the same class failed to tractor beam the Falcon in TESB, even when point-blank with
it.

If that wasn't bad enough, the great and mighty Super Star Destroyer Executor failed to lock onto the Falcon when it was right along side her and only hundreds of meters out in front of her nose.

As for the hyperspace navigation issue. We know from TCW that hyperspace is dependent on well maintained hyperlanes, the disrupting of which effectively cuts of ships from getting to various destinations around TGFFA. So how much of that is the on-board computers, or a combination of navigational aids and the computer? And hundreds of km? Usually not. The Rebel fleet came out of hyperspace tens of thousands of km from the Endor, and according the ANH novelization, the Falcon was no closer to Alderaan's expected position than one planetary diameter (approximately 12,700 km). The Death Star in ANH also never got closer than six planetary diameters (77,000 km).

Brilliant source you cited here. Whatever episode you are referring to is contradicted by the RotJ novel, where thermonuclear fireworks are harmless enough so that Ackbar can stand in front of a window and only feel the ship getting rocked.
TCW is a legite source as Lucas considers it a proper continuation of the movie storylines. Thermonuclear? What yield, please. Oh wait, you don't have one and nuclear weapons can be anything from sub-kiloton to many megatons. Furthermore, as already pointed out, we never see these weapons in the movies, thus there is contradiction, and thus it is rendered invaild. Even if we were to assume their use occured "off-screen" somewhere, they were used so infrequently as to be rendered moot in the overall battle.
StarWarsStarTrek wrote:Sure, even though you fail to explain to me when this has ever been provided to me before. Give me scripts, please. Or video.
"Balance of Terror" has been brought up many times before on this forum. But I don't want you having any excuses:

KIRK: Yes, well gentlemen, the question still remains. Can we engage them with a reasonable possibility of victory?

SCOTT: No question. Their power is simple impulse.
KIRK: Meaning we can outrun them?

STILES: To be used in chasing them or retreating, sir?



KIRK: Battle status?

SULU: All stations manned, Captain.

STILES: Phaser weapons energised. Set for proximity blast.

SPOCK: Intruder now bearing directly for comet's tail.

KIRK: Plot his exact point of entry, Mister Stiles.

STILES: Computed. On the board, sir.

KIRK: The moment he begins entering the comet's tail, he becomes visible. End run, gentlemen. We'll swing around the other side and catch him at that moment.

SULU: Acknowledged, Captain.

SPOCK: He's maintaining that bearing, Captain.

KIRK: Let's get him, Mister Sulu




ROMULAN: A signal, Commander.

COMMANDER: We have him. Move toward him.

[Bridge]

KIRK: Power on. Reverse course. He'll try to slip under us.

SULU: Lateral power, sir.

STILES: Coming around, sir.

KIRK: Phasers, fire.

STILES: Phasers, fire.

[Romulan ship]

(They are taking damage)

DECIUS: How, Commander. How?

COMMANDER: He's a sorcerer, that one. He reads the thoughts in my brain. Our fuel supply all but gone and he stays out of reach.

DECIUS: We are beaten. Can it be true? The Praetor's finest and proudest flagship beaten.

COMMANDER: Perhaps we can yet save your Praetor's pride for him. More debris into the tubes. Decius, do we have the old-style nuclear warheads aboard?


As you can see, the Enterprise overtakes and outmaneuvers the Romulan ship.

The issue with the Lonka Pulsar issue has been throughly dealt with as is the reminder of how badly you attempted to misrepresent Federation and Star Trek ships' abilities to survive very close to stars. But I expect you'll ignore that, too.
-Mike

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Re: Vaders fleet from Empire vs DS9

Post by Picard » Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:30 pm


No, it's a very stupid thing to do, and only failed to fail because the Federation engaged the borg cube at point blank range instead of blasting them away from hundreds of thousands of kilometers away. Hey Mike, honestly, do you have any in universe justification for this fact that works with BVR Trek ranges?
Jamming? Cube can outfight a fleet, meaning it should also be able to jam said fleet. Same as in RL. Raptor tries to stay invisible (and fails). Typhoon can simply jam crap out of everything, close to short range and blast Raptor to pieces.

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Re: Vaders fleet from Empire vs DS9

Post by KSW » Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:35 am

sonofccn wrote:This really doesn't seem fair. You're throwing about six ships, granted the Executer is big, against what seems to be a similar number of ships plus a heavily fortified space station. The Defiant alone is going to be a killer.
If an ISD can't handle an ion-canon, I really don't think it can stand up to a quantum-torpedo.

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Re: Vaders fleet from Empire vs DS9

Post by KSW » Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:53 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:
StarWarsStarTrek wrote:1. That SW ships can hit stationary targets as small as DS9 - Rebel Dream. ANH (tractor beaming the Falcon). In fact, the ability of ships to aim the right direction for cross galactic hyperdrive runs and drop out within a few hundred kilometers of a planet or even a ship is almost proof enough, since the precision of their instrumentation would have to be to the trillions or quadrillions of digits.
The Death Star tractor beam is an unknown quantity. There's also a problem; if it could hit the Falcon with ease, why not use it to grab up and hold or shake apart the X-wings and Y-wings sent against the Death Star? Hell, why not use the tactic on the second one? Furthermore, even if we went with your assertion, the capability is limited or does not exist in other common starships like Type-I ISDs, since the Devastator could not lock onto the Tantive in ANH, nor did any of them attempt tractor locks on the Falcon.
I'll volunteer this: the Falcon was moving directly towards the Death Star, but they thought it was a small moon, not a station; so Falcon didn't maneuver evasively, and the DS was able to lock onto it before Han knew it was a station. The DS could have just as easily blasted the Falcon with turbolasers.

Meanwhile the X-wings were quite aware of the tractor-beams, and they were maneuvering evasively, just like they were able to avoid the turbolasers.
So it would seem that if you can't hit something with a turbolaser, you can't tractor it; there's nothing magical about a tractor-beam.

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