List of expanded universe sources incompatible with ICS

[StarWarsStarTrek]

I'll respond to JMS's response asap, but a question:

How do you guys rationalize/dismiss/etc the statement of an ISD using more energy in one hyperspace jump than many nations will in their lifetime? If we take the energy consumption of the US and scale it up to 50 billion (the average SW population of a planet if you take the 100 quadrillion figure and divide it by Tarkin's one million world claim), you get 1.3 × 10^22 joules per year for a typical Star Wars nation (which are planetary). If you take into account that the Republic had existed for over 25,000 years, you get 3.25000001 × 10^26 joules consumed in a single hyperspace jump; WOW.

[Trinoya]

How do you guys rationalize/dismiss/etc the statement of an ISD using more energy in one hyperspace jump than many nations will in their lifetime?

I need the specific quote. But while you're at it, how do you rationalize a peaceful planet like Naboo having to ration its power during the clone wars?

[Mr. Oragahn]

How do you guys rationalize/dismiss/etc the statement of an ISD using more energy in one hyperspace jump than many nations will in their lifetime?

I need the specific quote. But while you're at it, how do you rationalize a peaceful planet like Naboo having to ration its power during the clone wars?

This one is easy. One "single jump" consumes more energy than blah blah. The thing is, a jump is a move from A to B. Wong and Saxton pushed the interpretation that it was the mere act of transitioning from realspace to FTL that consumed that much energy, instead of a continuous consumption of energy over the entire jump's duration.

See this post and a couple posts following mine from there.
Reasonable rationalizations are possible:

v.tr.
1. To leap over or across: jump a fence.

Now that's a verb, so it's not as direct and clear as what comes below. But hyperspace jumping, if were to use verbs, would mean leaping across hyperspace. In other words, moving through hyperspace over a given distance that remains to be defined. It's a continued action anyway.

n.
1. a. The act of jumping; a leap.
1. b. The distance covered by a jump: a jump of seven feet.

In case of 1. a., we can obtain the following interpretation: hyperspace leap. Which means the act of crossing a given distance, since that's what a leap (noun) is.
1. b. quite the same, where it directly points to the whole distance.

And that is all that matters, because I can prove that the "jump = whole journey" interpretation is correct.

And more perspective here.

[General Donner]

A possible problem with your interpretation though ... There are multiple EU sources that state it's the translation to and from hyperspace that's the part needing a hyperdrive. If you dump an object in hyperspace without a hyperdrive it stays there basically forever. It doesn't drop out, or slow down or whatever. Which would indicate you need little input energy after "jumping to lightspeed" to maintain your pace. You just need to jump in and then jump out again. If that's really so, the best you can do with that angle is dump down the per-jump energy by half.

Saxton quotes two novels that agree with him on this on his site, "Tyrant's Test" and "Hard Merchandise." I haven't read either in a while, but it doesn't look like either of them's been doctored to suit any particular POV from here.

[Praeothmin]

And once again, we have one or two sources that may support the ICS, vs all the rest of the EU, like Darksaber, the movies and their novels, and TCW...

So why should we care about one single quote when the vast majority doesn't support the high end interpretations?

[Mike DiCenso]

Darksaber is pretty damning of SW firepower. We have an actual description of the effects of the turbolaser bolts hitting Yavin IV, and yet only destroy an acre of forest.
-Mike

[Praeothmin]

To be fair, each hit creates forrest fires an acre in area, which still requires single digit KTs to perform...

[General Donner]

Kevin J Anderson's just an awful author who doesn't get the universes he's writing for. If people think his SW books are bad then they should see his Dune ones. Or rather they shouldn't, if they want to preserve their sanity.

Just eradicating the messed up romances he put in his Jedi Academy books took several more EU novels. I mean, he tried to pair up Admiral Ackbar with a human woman for ****'s sake. That particular one was thankfully ignored by all later authors, but still. You get the point. You just can't get much more "fail" and "creepy" than that and still write mainstream sci-fi.

Still, for all that KJA really sucks as author, I have a hard time thinking he meant those turbolasers to be firing at max power. The same guy, after all, repeated like half a dozen times in the Jedi Academy trilogy how Daala's initial four ISD fleet had more than enough firepower to turn any planet to molten slag. For a Super Star Destroyer to be OOMs weaker doesn't really work, even in the context of the books he wrote by himself.

[Praeothmin]

Well, KJA also had a dozen X-Wings take on an ISD and win, so he's all over the place...

[General Donner]

He's seriously all over the place ... Where's that particular bit from though? Don't remember too much fighter stuff in his books. That feels more like something from the X-wing novels.

[Praeothmin]

I do believe it was from the X-Wing novels...

Am I confusing Mike Stackpole with KJA?

[mojo]

I'll respond to JMS's response asap...

13 days and counting, buddy. i know you're a very busy man, and don't take this the wrong way, because you know i have tender feelings for you, but some might say you have no intention of responding.
i know they're wrong! just a little reminder!

[mojo]

forgive me for going a little off-topic here, but i don't really understand the kja hatred. i fully admit that i am pretty much willing to read anything put in front of me regardless of value, cereal boxes, mein kampf, the satanic verses, kja star wars novels.. but i have for the most part enjoyed his star wars stuff and find it to be about the same quality as all the rest. excepting zahn, of course. is this a storytelling thing, a not-understanding-power-level averages thing, what?

[Roondar]

forgive me for going a little off-topic here, but i don't really understand the kja hatred. i fully admit that i am pretty much willing to read anything put in front of me regardless of value, cereal boxes, mein kampf, the satanic verses, kja star wars novels.. but i have for the most part enjoyed his star wars stuff and find it to be about the same quality as all the rest. excepting zahn, of course. is this a storytelling thing, a not-understanding-power-level averages thing, what?

I've not read any of his stories.

That said.. The cynical part in me does find it rather a 'coincidence' that a number of authors that just happen to use rather low key values for SW firepower, for completly unrelated reasons no doubt, get reviled by the more fanatical pro-wars crowd.

Not to mention that because of said reviling get almost completely ignored in favour of, well, other books which just so happen to be filled with -forgive the expression- uberwanked figures that have nothing to do with what we see in the movies, series or even comics (for the most part).

My 'favorite' part was always the ressurection (for lack of a better term) of Palpatine and turning him from an old man that was great at manipulating people, lifting stuff with his mind and shooting some lightning* into a god defeating horror that can more or less blow up the universe if he winks. Yeah, I kinda stopped caring for the EU when I saw that.

*) And a really excellent villian to boot. I loved his portrayal in RotJ and he made the prequels a ton better than they'd otherwise have been.

But then, I'm not debating much anymore so perhaps my view is overly negative ;)

[Admiral Breetai]

you aren't being overly cynical what was done with Palpatine was utterly monstrous and it completely contradicted the entire prophecy of restoring order to the force by eliminating the sith...and Anakins final redemption. His revival and war thus is an affront to everything The mythology behind Lucas's prime body of work and on those grounds alone should of been impeached from canon