Me vs StarWarsStarTrek

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Well, the ICS says they do, because it says that the invisible, non-existant guns on the Acclamator are 200 GT a piece...

Even if those stats were true 3 ISD's do not have the number of weapons ect to give the coverage required to blast the atmosphere away, at best they would cause massive blast waves that travel around the globe.

Again this is also ignoring the fact that they were not firing the planet wide coverage shots required to achieve it even if they had the power they were actually firing on a single spot on the planet the base called Dankayo.


The most entertaining part is that the same warsies go on and on about turbolasers NOT causing big blasts when challenged to show 200gt explosions ect using a comment regarding "focusing the heat of a nuke into a small area" or some such blather.

[Mike DiCenso]

The problem with the "Scavenger Hunt" description is that it is often too vauge. Let's take a look:

"... to rendezvous at Dankayo and reduce the tiny base to molten slag. Even before the last of its atmosphere drifted away, before the dense clouds of atomized topsoil could begin to settle, Imperial transports Elusive and Timely, as well as a complement of TIE fighters, moved in to perform "mop-up" operations and a thorough search of Dankayo's now evenly-cratered surface."

The base is to be reduced to slag, not the planet, that much is certain. But then the next sentence is where things get confusing. Is the base or the planet's atmosphere drifting away? I presume given the context that it is referring to the base's atmosphere, and that Dankayo might not have had much of an atmosphere to begin with. The topsoil being blasted up and settling is kept separate, and the use of the term "topsoil" does not have to refer only to habitable terrestrial worlds as discussed in the BDZ thread here.

Now it's entirely possible that the author meant we should think of topsoil in the terrestrial sense, but if that's the case, why is the base's atmosphere escaping away? As far as I recall, there is no description given of what the planet Dankayo is like before the bombardment in all of "Scavenger Hunt". The fact that ships are able to land near the base and troops disembark to conduct a search of still partially intact structures says that the bombardment cannot be so energetic that people and machines cannot operate there, especially a surface blasted into molten lava.

In fact, given how the paragraph is structured, there is nothing there to indicate that the entire surface of Dankayo the planet was completely cratered, just the area around the base itself. This interpretation fits in well with the actual descriptions of the bombardment of Caamas where the oceans were still intact for soil run off to poison them, and firestorms to rage over the land. An ICS-level firepower ship would have boiled off every drop of water and left the crust a shattered, molten mess.

The most entertaining part is that the same warsies go on and on about turbolasers NOT causing big blasts when challenged to show 200gt explosions ect using a comment regarding "focusing the heat of a nuke into a small area" or some such blather.

That falls under the abuse of ad hoc explanations. When you have to start making up magical neutrino-sopping shields and other such technobabble to explain away the lack of big firepower, you've already lost the debate.
-Mike

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Mike, how can only the base's atmosphere be blown away?

[Praeothmin]

Because they were firing at the base?
Because Dankayo did not have an atmosphere of its own, and so when the upper part of the base was breached, the atmosphere could drift away?

[Mike DiCenso]

SWST, if you'd read my post, then you'd have the answer to your question. See, it's one about context. The first sentence refers to the ISDs meeting up at Dankayo, with the orders to slag the Rebel base there. The next sentence is vague enough that "it's atmosphere" could be either the planet or the base, but most likely the base's based on how the previous first sentence is structured.

That and the simple fact that Dankayo the planet does not necessarily have to have a large-scale atmosphere or any at all to begin with.
-Mike

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Dankayo is a colonized world, so it obviously has an atmosphere. There's no logical reason for the base itself to have a magical self contained atmosphere, and for the turbolasers' energy to magically contain itself within the base's "atmosphere".

[Praeothmin]

Oh, I didn't know that Dankayo was colonized...

But even the Wookiepedia entry on it say that, while the atmosphere was indeed stripped, the surface was only evenly cratered...
Again, how much energy is needed to strip away an atmosphere, andwhat kind of mechanism would do that without melting the surface of the world?

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Dankayo is a colonized world, so it obviously has an atmosphere.

Irrelevant.

There's no logical reason for the base itself to have a magical self contained atmosphere.

There are plenty of reasons from chemical or bio weapons, they you have pressure doors to protect from blast waves from weapons hits, then onto to the fact it was supposedly underground as well i believe and had deep shelters ect so a self contained atmosphere would not only be logical but fucking essential.

If the base was not self contained and armored ect why the fuck did it require 3 star-destroyers?, but what the fuck lets say it was a few tents and a lean-to and chuckle at it needing 3 star-destroyers to destroy........


Why don't you show how 3 star-destroyers can have the coverage and rate of fire to do what you claim the the first place, i mean it requires they hit all the surface of the planet all at the same time over and over to achieve the effect you claim.

Here are a few words you need to get used to "it is not impossible for 3 star-destroyers to achieve the effect even if they had the firepower you claim due to the mechanics required to achieve it"...

[Picard]

Oh, I didn't know that Dankayo was colonized...

But even the Wookiepedia entry on it say that, while the atmosphere was indeed stripped, the surface was only evenly cratered...
Again, how much energy is needed to strip away an atmosphere, andwhat kind of mechanism would do that without melting the surface of the world?

And maybe colony itself is actually space station?

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Oh, I didn't know that Dankayo was colonized...

But even the Wookiepedia entry on it say that, while the atmosphere was indeed stripped, the surface was only evenly cratered...
Again, how much energy is needed to strip away an atmosphere, andwhat kind of mechanism would do that without melting the surface of the world?

And maybe colony itself is actually space station?

Or a self contained habitat, it says it was colonized not terraformed..

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Irrelevant.

Relevant to the context, which you don't appear to have understood.

There are plenty of reasons from chemical or bio weapons, they you have pressure doors to protect from blast waves from weapons hits, then onto to the fact it was supposedly underground as well i believe and had deep shelters ect so a self contained atmosphere would not only be logical but fucking essential.

That does not equate to having a self contained atmosphere. Any containment systems (shields, walls, etc) would have been destroyed very early in the volley, and therefore does not fit with the events in the quote, which I shall go over below. Moreso, there's no way that it could "drift away", since a destruction of the containment system would simply "connect" the base's atmosphere with the rest of the atmosphere of the planet.

If the base was not self contained and armored ect why the fuck did it require 3 star-destroyers?, but what the fuck lets say it was a few tents and a lean-to and chuckle at it needing 3 star-destroyers to destroy........

Because the base probably had some sort of shielding system, like how the Rebels were able to hastily put up a theater shield that could withstand "any bombardment" from the freaking Executor?

Why don't you show how 3 star-destroyers can have the coverage and rate of fire to do what you claim the the first place, i mean it requires they hit all the surface of the planet all at the same time over and over to achieve the effect you claim.

Circular reasoning, as using high end SW calcs this works out fine. Using your calcs, it doesn't, and you'd have to postulate that the base had a pointlessly self contained atmosphere that somehow "drifted away" instead of simply connecting with the rest of the atmosphere.

Here are a few words you need to get used to "it is not impossible for 3 star-destroyers to achieve the effect even if they had the firepower you claim due to the mechanics required to achieve it"...

I would like to note that the quote states that the planet's surface was evenly cratered and its topsoil atomized before the atmosphere drifted away. Even if we were to ignore the questionable term of "drifted" if it simply meant destroying a containment field, this would happen way before the ISD's could atomize the topsoil, especially given low end calcs.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Relevant to the context, which you don't appear to have understood.

The context is that they are refering to the base not the planet.

That does not equate to having a self contained atmosphere.

Because you say so?, of cpourse it does.

Any containment systems (shields, walls, etc) would have been destroyed very early in the volley, and therefore does not fit with the events in the quote, which I shall go over below.

Bullshit it fits perfectly.

Moreso, there's no way that it could "drift away", since a destruction of the containment system would simply "connect" the base's atmosphere with the rest of the atmosphere of the planet.

"Drift away" is about as far from being "blasted away at escape velocity" as you can get and fits perfectly with it being the bases atmosphere.

Because the base probably had some sort of shielding system, like how the Rebels were able to hastily put up a theater shield that could withstand "any bombardment" from the freaking Executor?

So 3 star destroyers have more firepower than the fucking executor now as they could drop this shield you just pulled out of your ass but is never mentioned in the book?.

Circular reasoning, as using high end SW calcs this works out fine.

Bull fucking shit as firepower alone cannot get it done without proper coverage and timing ect.

Using your calcs, it doesn't, and you'd have to postulate that the base had a pointlessly self contained atmosphere that somehow "drifted away" instead of simply connecting with the rest of the atmosphere.

Far from pointless as i pointed out and yes it was stated to have "DRIFTED AWAY" rather than being blasted away at escape velocity.

Concession accepted.

I would like to note that the quote states that the planet's surface was evenly cratered and its topsoil atomized before the atmosphere drifted away.

Note it all you like as it is fucking meaningless.

Even if we were to ignore the questionable term of "drifted" if it simply meant destroying a containment field, this would happen way before the ISD's could atomize the topsoil, especially given low end calcs.

BULLSHIT BUT GO AHEAD AND FUCKING PROVE IT.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

The context is that they are refering to the base not the planet.

And Mike made the suggestion that the planet might not have had an atmosphere, and I was correcting him. Again, you don't get the context.

Because you say so?, of cpourse it does.

Not in any meaningful tense.

Bullshit it fits perfectly.

Clearly you did not get the "destroyed very early part" of my statement. The atmosphere drifted away after the planet's topsoil was atomized! How do you explain that if it's as simple as making a one nanometer hole in a door on the base, enough to make it not "self contained" in regards to bio warfare.

"Drift away" is about as far from being "blasted away at escape velocity" as you can get and fits perfectly with it being the bases atmosphere.

So you think that, when you put on an NBC mask, you create a "self contained atmosphere" AND when you take it off, that air "drifts away"? Newsflash: the air doesn't drift away.

EDIT: breaking discovery; the quote specifies that the last of the atmosphere had drifted away! If it were just the base's self contained atmosphere, not all of it would drift away like the quote implies, which is that the base was devoid of all atmosphere after the bombardment when this would not have happened; most of the air would still stay in the base, and any that left would be replaced by air from the outside.

The only way that the quote makes sense is that Dankayo's atmosphere was blasted into space, because that's how it cannot get back and how "the LAST" can drift away without being replaced.

So 3 star destroyers have more firepower than the fucking executor now as they could drop this shield you just pulled out of your ass but is never mentioned in the book?.

You're reversing your stance. Your original complaint was that 3 ISD's would be overkill for a small base:

hy the fuck did it require 3 star-destroyers

(based, BTW, on a strawman that I denied the base being armored and self contained)

And yet you're reversing it as underkill.

Bull fucking shit as firepower alone cannot get it done without proper coverage and timing ect.

And high end SW calcs also include pinpoint accuracy and long range as well.

Far from pointless as i pointed out and yes it was stated to have "DRIFTED AWAY" rather than being blasted away at escape velocity.

Concession accepted.

If you open your door, the "atmosphere" in your house will not "drift away" even if it were completely sealed.

Note it all you like as it is fucking meaningless.

No, the ISD was bombarding the planet/base/etc. Logically, the effects that come with more energy being outputted would come after the effects that would come earlier, such as making the atmosphere of a "self contained" base "drift away", which would be as simple as making a tiny hole in a section of the base and therefore would have been accomplished likely in the first volley, not after the topsoil was atomized!

BULLSHIT BUT GO AHEAD AND FUCKING PROVE IT.

Destroying a self contained base would be pretty "easy". Unless if you're going to claim that making a tiny hole in the base (enough for just one air molecule to pass through) takes more energy than atomizing the topsoil, it would take less energy and therefore would have happened as an effect of the bombardment first, not last as the quote describes.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Not in any meaningful tense.

So bio warfare ect along with the other stuff i listed are all meaningless because you say so?....

Clearly you did not get the "destroyed very early part" of my statement.

Because it is retarded.

The atmosphere drifted away after the planet's topsoil was atomized! How do you explain that if it's as simple as making a one nanometer hole in a door on the base, enough to make it not "self contained" in regards to bio warfare.

What the fuck are you dribbling on about this fucking "one nanometer hole in a door" bullshit for, who fucking claimed anything like that?.

So you think that, when you put on an NBC mask, you create a "self contained atmosphere" AND when you take it off, that air "drifts away"? Newsflash: the air doesn't drift away.

Red herring.

The smoke and dust from the bombardment in the planets atmosphere would obviously be smokier and dustier than the atmosphere released from the base after they blasted through it and destroyed it.

NEWSFLASH, A PLANETS ATMOSPHERE BLASTED AWAY FROM THE PLANET AT ESCAPE VELOCITY DOES NOT FUCKING DRIFT AWAY.

The only way that the quote makes sense is that Dankayo's atmosphere was blasted into space, because that's how it cannot get back and how "the LAST" can drift away without being replaced.

IT MAKES NO FUCKING SENSE READ BELOW:-

NEWSFLASH, A PLANETS ATMOSPHERE BLASTED AWAY FROM THE PLANET AT ESCAPE VELOCITY DOES NOT FUCKING DRIFT AWAY.

You're reversing your stance. Your original complaint was that 3 ISD's would be overkill for a small base:

I am not reversing anything i am dealing with you pulling shielding out of your fucking ass and whining about the executor being incapable of doing what you say these 3 star destroyers can.

And high end SW calcs also include pinpoint accuracy and long range as well.

Well that is shit on by canon material even if it mattered a fuck as accuracy is a small part considering we are talking about causing the entire surface of the planet to explode upwards all the at the same time over and over to achieve the effect required.

AND 3 STAR DESTROYERS DO NOT HAVE ENOUGH GUNS, ENOUGH COVERAGE EVEN IF THEY HAD ENOUGH FIREPOWER.

If you open your door, the "atmosphere" in your house will not "drift away" even if it were completely sealed.

Constricting the base had been blasted and outside would have been dusty and Smokey the act of it being blasted open would allow the term to be applied.

No, the ISD was bombarding the planet/base/etc.

Just the base according to the quote.

Logically, the effects that come with more energy being outputted would come after the effects that would come earlier, such as making the atmosphere of a "self contained" base "drift away".

The last thing to happen would be the base getting blasted open as that was the objective, after the base was destroyed the mission was over FFS.

which would be as simple as making a tiny hole in a section of the base and therefore would have been accomplished likely in the first volley, not after the topsoil was atomized!

Given canon accuracy ect the top soil would have gone first, then the base getting destroyed would have released its atmosphere into the dusty smoky atmosphere of the planet.

Destroying a self contained base would be pretty "easy".

Because you fucking say so even though it took 3 star destroyers to do it?...

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Please address the edit that I made to my post, which was, by the way, right after I posted it.