Star Trek Shields (with a word in by Wong!)

[Admiral Breetai]

I mean to graduate from needing a thousand NX's to life wipe or world bust to well needing the defiant or the main guns on a Galaxy..is not nearly as much of a stretch as "a thousand ships to flip a sun" to...something less so

then again it might actually be backed up by canon (mith? Mike O correct me if wrong here) but I seem to recall that the Enterprise coming close to towing a stellar core fragment that was affecting a local planet only failing due to how massive it was and tried to destroy it or something

[Mith]

I mean to graduate from needing a thousand NX's to life wipe or world bust to well needing the defiant or the main guns on a Galaxy..is not nearly as much of a stretch as "a thousand ships to flip a sun" to...something less so

then again it might actually be backed up by canon (mith? Mike O correct me if wrong here) but I seem to recall that the Enterprise coming close to towing a stellar core fragment that was affecting a local planet only failing due to how massive it was and tried to destroy it or something

They didn't 'tow' it. They used their tractor beam or something to nudge it a bit more off course towards the planet. They couldn't stop it.

[User1619]

Yes but the ship wasn't designed to do that, the engines are mainly for space-travel.

[Mith]

Christ all mighty What the fuck really? V'ger could stop the sun from rotating but couldn't hope to breach Earth's shields? jesus I haven't seen that movie in like three or four years but really? why is this even being debated then if true..good lord the ICS even doesn't even have shit on that

Well I wouldn't say "couldn't hope to breach Earth's shields," since the novel said that Kirk was expecting that Earth-defenses could give them some bargaining-power against V'ger, not hold it off indefinitely.

Likewise, Decker it would only take thousands of starships to generate a 12-power field.
G2K dismissed this as non-canon because it was too powerful to take seriously; but after what you said about Tripp's comment that 1000 NX-01 ships could destroy a planet, then it pretty much squares out.

That's why I say, "why even pretend?"
--------------------------------
(Earth on viewscreen, resting peacefully without a care)
Tarkin: "You may fire when ready."
Vader: "We DID!"

I can't even begin to tell you what's wrong with this statement.

No. Just no. The sheer amount of energy it would require for a thousand ships to keep the sun from spinning would be absolutely phenomenal. I can't even believe you would even try to pursue this avenue of claims.

I'll accept a great deal of things from Star Trek, but this is not one of them. Not from the 24th UFP. No f*ing way.

[User1619]

Christ all mighty What the fuck really? V'ger could stop the sun from rotating but couldn't hope to breach Earth's shields? jesus I haven't seen that movie in like three or four years but really? why is this even being debated then if true..good lord the ICS even doesn't even have shit on that

Well I wouldn't say "couldn't hope to breach Earth's shields," since the novel said that Kirk was expecting that Earth-defenses could give them some bargaining-power against V'ger, not hold it off indefinitely.

Likewise, Decker it would only take thousands of starships to generate a 12-power field.
G2K dismissed this as non-canon because it was too powerful to take seriously; but after what you said about Tripp's comment that 1000 NX-01 ships could destroy a planet, then it pretty much squares out.

That's why I say, "why even pretend?"
--------------------------------
(Earth on viewscreen, resting peacefully without a care)
Tarkin: "You may fire when ready."
Vader: "We DID!"

I can't even begin to tell you what's wrong with this statement.

No. Just no. The sheer amount of energy it would require for a thousand ships to keep the sun from spinning would be absolutely phenomenal.

1.49E+33J, to be precise.

And it was "thousands" not "a thousand--" the 1000 figure was for the number of NX-01 ships it would take to destroy the earth, which would place the power-figs at 3.31E+25J per ship.

As for "thousands of starships," I used an upper-figure of 10,000, so one TMP-era starship can generate 1.49E+29J, or 4400X as much as the NX-01-- not a bad rate of improvement, but entirely plausible: consider the nuclear-powered submarines of 1950 compared to the wind-powered ships of 1800, they could easily produce 4400X as much power; same for the explosives of the era compared to nukes.

I can't even believe you would even try to pursue this avenue of claims.

And as Yoda said, "That, is why you fail."

I'll accept a great deal of things from Star Trek, but this is not one of them. Not from the 24th UFP. No f*ing way.

F'ing WAY. Denial ain't just a river in Egypt. You can't dismiss something simply because the figures boggle your mind, you have to prove that it contradicts the canon somehow.

These aren't wanked figures like at SDN, they're based on canonical evidence; so when I say "Why even pretend," I f'ing MEAN it. We've already demonstrated evidence that ST not only uses antimatter vs. fusion, but it doesn't use ordinary garden-variety antimatter; and so yes the power-calcs are insane, but well-backed by canon.

While one might claim that some parts of the TMP novelization aren't canon, it's tough to dispute parts that are directly included in the movie as being "scaled down," when they're consistent with perfectly plausible advances in other hard canon.

[Mith]

1.49E+33J, to be precise.

Absolute tripe.

And it was "thousands" not "a thousand--" the 1000 figure was for the number of NX-01 ships it would take to destroy the earth, which would place the power-figs at 3.31E+25J per ship.

Do you by chance know what hyperbole is?

As for "thousands of starships," I used an upper-figure of 10,000, so one TMP-era starship can generate 1.49E+29J, or 4400X as much as the NX-01-- not a bad rate of improvement, but entirely plausible: consider the nuclear-powered submarines of 1950 compared to the wind-powered ships of 1800, they could easily produce 4400X as much power; same for the explosives of the era compared to nukes.

The problem isn't the scale difference--it's the scale itself. This level of absurdity is just beyond all reason.

And as Yoda said, "That, is why you fail."

Yeah, he was talking about levitating a small fighter. You're talking about stopping the rotation of the most massive thing in our solar system.

F'ing WAY. Denial ain't just a river in Egypt. You can't dismiss something simply because the figures boggle your mind, you have to prove that it contradicts the canon somehow.

I'm not going to waste my time doing so. Sure I could point to the multitude of episodes where stars are suggested to be dangers to the ship and their crews, but that would be giving more credit to this stupid quote than it deserves.

If you can't honestly see the problem with two major pro-trek supporters telling you that something is wrong with this, then you honestly haven't thought it through much, have you.

These aren't wanked figures like at SDN, they're based on canonical evidence; so when I say "Why even pretend," I f'ing MEAN it.

Yes, they are wanked figures. Because they go far, far beyond supporting the level of capability that Star Trek typically shows.

We've already demonstrated evidence that ST not only uses antimatter vs. fusion, but it doesn't use ordinary garden-variety antimatter; and so yes the power-calcs are insane, but well-backed by canon.

Yeah, whatever. Excuse me if I never take you seriously again.

[Picard]

It's just which part of canon one takes, and how he/she interprets it. I usually take parts of canon supported by science - there is no goddamn way someone will convince me that few pounds of antimatter can strip atmosphere off entire world. But Star Trek does have some insane (as in ICS-level insane) parts.

[User1619]

1.49E+33J, to be precise.

Absolute tripe.

That's NOT the energy of the sun rotating?


4.38E+09 Meters sun's circumference
/ 2332800 seconds sun's period of rotation
= 1.88E+03 rate of rotation (meters/econd)


* .4 * 1.99E+30 kg (mass of sun)
= 1.49E+33J momentum of sun rotating

[User1619]

It's just which part of canon one takes, and how he/she interprets it. I usually take parts of canon supported by science - there is no goddamn way someone will convince me that few pounds of antimatter can strip atmosphere off entire world. But Star Trek does have some insane (as in ICS-level insane) parts.

But you're saying that someone can one convince you that antimatter can allow a ship to warp time and space in order to go thousands of times lightspeed? Tell me, what "science" supports that?

Did you ever think maybe it's not ordinary anti-matter, or that even Roddenberry may, just may have heard of E=MC^2?

Yeah, math isn't some people's strong-suit around here LOL

[mojo]

1.49E+33J, to be precise.

I'm not going to waste my time doing so.

then do us all a favor and stop talking.
heroheeto: claim a
mith: NO WAY MOTHERFUCKER, THAT IS THE STUPIDEST THING EVER
heroheeto: evidence, request for proof showing claim a to be false
mith: NO WAY, I CAN'T BE BOTHERED, BUT JUST TAKE MY WORD FOR IT
heroheeto and THE ENTIRE BOARD: YOU'RE AN ASS

[Admiral Breetai]

Damnit Mojo! stop doing my job for me..also I friggen LOL'd

[Admiral Breetai]

[Mith]

then do us all a favor and stop talking.

As per why? Because I refuse to waste my time responding to utter tripe? From an offhand comment about Kirk? Something that would require massive energy generation that they clearly never use?

heroheeto: claim a

Something so absurd that two of the largest pro-trek debaters has dismissed it as 'pure wank'. What does that tell you?

mith: NO WAY MOTHERFUCKER, THAT IS THE STUPIDEST THING EVER
heroheeto: evidence, request for proof showing claim a to be false
mith: NO WAY, I CAN'T BE BOTHERED, BUT JUST TAKE MY WORD FOR IT

Anyone whose ever watched Star Trek could tell you the problem with his claims. More so when you are forced to consider that 24th century ships are far, far superior to the ones in The Motion Picture.

Yet last I checked, they don't giggle when they get up and close to a pulsars, they don't ride the waves of a black hole for shits and giggles, and they don't seem to consider the ability to enter the star of a corona as a typical day's work.

heroheeto and THE ENTIRE BOARD: YOU'RE AN ASS

Ah yes, the entire board which includes the people who regularly laugh of such similarly absurd statements of a lesser scale on a daily basis.

How about this? How about you stop trying to troll someone and you actually watch Star Trek? The evidence against this assertion is so high that to respond to it is like responding to some nut who keeps screaming that the world is going to end because some fucking old, dead society with a calendar said so.

[Admiral Breetai]

his claim made me a do a double take as well twas pretty effing nutty though sorta backed up by an ermm shall we say liberal interpretation of canon so mith's reaction was justified but still Mojo I lol'd

although and I ask this to you Mith Mr O and any one else in this thread with a more science oriented mind..if you can move a fragment of a core even a little enough to divert it's course, while it seems a bit of a stretch to stop the spinning of a star, it seems at least doable for an object like a Federation planet who's likely got power generators much bigger then the big E's to throw up a shield capable of no selling the Superlaser on the DS I mean that was our core discussion to get things back on topic..or is it still entirely crazy a thing to suggest?

[Mith]

his claim made me a do a double take as well twas pretty effing nutty though sorta backed up by an ermm shall we say liberal interpretation of canon so mith's reaction was justified but still Mojo I lol'd

although and I ask this to you Mith Mr O and any one else in this thread with a more science oriented mind..if you can move a fragment of a core even a little enough to divert it's course, while it seems a bit of a stretch to stop the spinning of a star, it seems at least doable for an object like a Federation planet who's likely got power generators much bigger then the big E's to throw up a shield capable of no selling the Superlaser on the DS I mean that was our core discussion to get things back on topic..or is it still entirely crazy a thing to suggest?

Depends on the methods used. I think, so long as you hit it in the right spot, you could cause a stellar core fragment to adjust its course, simply by that, but it would require an immense amount of energy. It wouldn't be too much, but maybe enough to save a planet if you hit it from the right distance and keep adjusting its course over time (which would be plenty given how slow it would be moving compared to an ST ship).