Star Wars Industrial supremacy fact or fairy tale?

[sonofccn]

The watch was not gold it was replicated matter of some sort.

Well I thought it looked like it was made of gold but the larger point is the device was composed out of a metallic substance of some sort not rather good material for a lunch or a pair of work boots.

Who says that's inconsistent? The transporter maintains the person's integrity though the whole process, so they just exist less in one place and more in another until they're fully transported.

Well to a layman like me being broken down to atoms or subatomic particles or what not isn't something you can be concious for or project a solid looking image of yourselve as Barclay did in realm of fear (TNG).

[Cocytus]

Didn't know the YOH quote...

So, another magic equipment for the Federation, with a bullshit excuse as to why living beings or gold can't be replicated... :)

Replicating living tissue replacements was the point of Toby Russel's genitronic replicator. Replicating a living being requires precisely duplicating complex synaptic functions which does seem to be beyond the replicator's abilities, and even if it weren't would carry heavy ethical implications (imagine a 24th century PETA :)

Does anyone have a quote regarding replication of gold? Certainly the comm badges are described as being gold in "The Last Outpost." Furthermore, dialogue from "Night Terrors" suggests the replicator can produce complex elements:

DATA
When Tyken was trapped in a Rift,
his analysis determined that a
massive energy release might
overload and dislocate the
anomaly. Fortunately, his cargo
included anicium and yurium, which
he used to detonate a massive
explosion. He then escaped
through the ruptured center of
the Rift.

GEORDI
(acknowledges)
But we aren't carrying anything
that could produce that kind of
explosion. Even our photon
torpedoes wouldn't be enough.

RIKER
Can't we replicate the elements
Tyken used?

DATA
We no longer have the power to
reproduce complex elements with
our replicators. We must find
a way to generate a violent energy
release without relying on
conventional means.

Gold is also useful as a conductor, so any of the small electronics like tricorders might also contain it, as opposed to the plasma used to transfer electricity around the ship, since small devices wouldn't need that kind of power (and hence, wouldn't need that kind of conductivity.)

[Admiral Breetai]

[

It wasn't a "minor skirmish", everyone who mentions it say it was a war.
If it had been a minor skirmish, the Federation woudl have had no reason to give wrolds to Cardassia, they could have simply bombed them into submission.
Yet they didn't, they chose to negociate, and in one episode they even do everything they can to stop a Federation Captain from firing at Cardassian ship for fear of the reprisal of this "minor skirmish"...
]

it was the first conflict the feds had where more than a few thousand people died in several generations of course they called it a war we know how ever from madred and macet how badly cardassians fared and would fare in renewed conflict

plus the planets they gave over looked really shitty and had a handful of people living on them its not like they handed over major hub worlds

[]While a far cry from Roddenberry's more Utopian vision section 31 actions are in defense of Federation interests as they see them. Highly aggressive yes, preemptive when ever possible and utterly remorseless but to my knowledge they only fight to enhance the Federation's interests. Ergo they are defensive through obviously not as the last resort my back is up against the wall sort "TrekPhilosopher" seems to have posulated.

while the founder virus was in self defense as was the pegasus as we saw later on the whole "not stopping the conspiracy that would allow for a mass klingon death charge into federation space" certainly wasn't anything other then hyper aggressive power playing on their part augment virus as well

[Praeothmin]

Iraq was called a War and yet the US kicked the shit out of the Iraqi, so it was indeed a War between the Federation and Cardassia.
Many lives were lost, so much so that the Federation preferred to negiciate instead of continue this "minor skirmish"...

And the Cardassians also gave shitty planets...

[Admiral Breetai]

Iraq was called a War and yet the US kicked the shit out of the Iraqi, so it was indeed a War between the Federation and Cardassia.]

sure but the US military vs the iraqi military was more "lolcurbstomp" than anything else its a war to be sure but it was a slaughter

the cardassians attacked the fed border got in lucky shots in the form of civilian massacres such as the one that drove maxwell into being treks Rambo and basically bankrupted their society and drove them to the point where they ended up so resentful and broken they willing threw themselves to the wolves later on after a total regime change

the Federation damage was morale and popular opinion shock and typical space hippie complacency getting roughed up a little and the average joe either not liking it or not caring enough to do more then lobby for negotiations

Cardassia ended up like post ww1 Germany

]Many lives were lost, so much so that the Federation preferred to negiciate instead of continue this "minor skirmish"...

several hundred thousand lives where lost on both sides the Feds showed when sufficiently motivated culturally that they could absorb those losses in a single battle with out crying for peace feelers while the Cardassians could in the begining...seemed to need peace far more than the feds

in fact from what I can gather from the shows themselves the reason why they traded worlds and made peace was because the federation hadn't encountered that level of brutality the spoonheads levied against fed settlements

I mean we saw what a UFP level society could do to the Cardassians when the Klingons completely raped their sorry buts

I agree that it probably was terrible especially when the feds had gone to such lengths to ensure such things didn't happen around them but I don't think they where ever in any real danger and conceding entire planets seemed like a poor move given what the feds could bring to the table in DW

And the Cardassians also gave shitty planets...

to be fair they had absolutely no choice in that regard while the feds did the Cardassian Union probably looks like the stellar equivalent of Fred Sanford's front lawn sure its littered with stuff but the mans not sitting on a gold mine

conversely the Feds turf comes off like Scrooge McDucks money bin by comparison

[sonofccn]

while the founder virus was in self defense as was the pegasus as we saw later on the whole "not stopping the conspiracy that would allow for a mass klingon death charge into federation space" certainly wasn't anything other then hyper aggressive power playing on their part augment virus as well

I'm sorry I don't understand. Are we talking about the Augmented Klingons arc? I don't remember any mass death charge being conducted by the Klingons...sorry if I'm being exceptionally dense.

[Praeothmin]

Kor, this is Memory ALpha's entry on the Fed-Cardie war:

The Federation-Cardassian Wars, known in the Federation as the Cardassian Wars or Border Wars, were prolonged conflicts between the Federation and the Cardassian Union, which started as far back as 2347 and lasted into the 2350s. (Smaller skirmishes, not officially considered part of the wars, continued into the 2360s.) The ensuing stalemate by the mid-2360s advantaged neither side in firepower or territory. A 2367 truce enforced an end to hostilities but left key questions unresolved; the finalized treaty, unsigned until 2370, formed a demilitarized zone between the powers, creating a new border and clarifying claims to planets such as Dorvan V. (TNG: "The Wounded", "Journey's End", "Chain of Command, Part I", "Chain of Command, Part II"; DS9: "Tribunal")

Read the complete article here.

No clear victor on either side, no curbstomp, no "Feds kicking Cardi ass"...

[sonofccn]

Kor, this is Memory ALpha's entry on the Fed-Cardie war:

The Federation-Cardassian Wars, known in the Federation as the Cardassian Wars or Border Wars, were prolonged conflicts between the Federation and the Cardassian Union, which started as far back as 2347 and lasted into the 2350s. (Smaller skirmishes, not officially considered part of the wars, continued into the 2360s.) The ensuing stalemate by the mid-2360s advantaged neither side in firepower or territory. A 2367 truce enforced an end to hostilities but left key questions unresolved; the finalized treaty, unsigned until 2370, formed a demilitarized zone between the powers, creating a new border and clarifying claims to planets such as Dorvan V. (TNG: "The Wounded", "Journey's End", "Chain of Command, Part I", "Chain of Command, Part II"; DS9: "Tribunal")

Read the complete article here.

No clear victor on either side, no curbstomp, no "Feds kicking Cardi ass"...

I'm afraid I would need the actual quote, not a wiki interpentation, before rewriting my interpertation of the war. I'm curious where the stalemate comes from I don't remember it ever being mentioned. Also we have this from chain of command II

MADRED
What happens to impoverished
societies... the tombs were
plundered, priceless treasures
stolen... a few were preserved in
museums... but even those were
eventually sold in order to pay
for our war efforts.

PICARD
That war cost you hundreds of
thousands of lives... depleted
your food supplies... left your
population weakened and
miserable... and yet you risk war
again.

Which really sounds like the Cardies got smashed fighting this war while the worse we have for the Feds is the Seti Massacure. No data that Earth's population was reduced to starving, miserable lots etc.

We also hear frequently of "Clearly Cardasian interests" being lost or held by the Federation, we don't really hear similarly territorial grumbling from Starfleet. As far as I know we don't even hear about ceded federation territory or clear federation interest held by the Cardies.

[Praeothmin]

Yes, Cardassia had it worse than the Federation, but did the Federation come out of it unscathed?
No, the war was so bad that it scarred many people in the Federation, it was so brutal that forced the Federation to negociate, instead of saying to the Cardies:
"Well, we're kicking your ass, os our terms are these: fuck you and die!"
But that's not what they did, they negociated, they ceded worlds to the Cardies, because they wanted the war to end...

[Admiral Breetai]

No clear victor on either side, no curbstomp, no "Feds kicking Cardi ass"...

1, why'd you call me kor?

2, the wikis statement is completely contradicted by the actual tv series and the later brutal rape the cardassians endured by a serious fed level power in ds9

simply put tng paints a much different picture the sheer stomping they got in way of the warrior backs up

[ I'm sorry I don't understand. Are we talking about the Augmented Klingons arc? I don't remember any mass death charge being conducted by the Klingons...sorry if I'm being exceptionally dense.

st6 when cartwright and his band of crazies decided to oblige general Changs "last glorious war of the klingon empire" after praxis

s31 either facilitated it or did absolutely nothing to stop it which was decidedly not self defense or preemptive self defense and more intentionally facilitating the complete suicide of a now toothless enemy

[sonofccn]

But that's not what they did, they negociated, they ceded worlds to the Cardies, because they wanted the war to end...

I would agree, the question is it because the Cardies inflicted that much damage or is it because the Federation values life, even spoonhead life, too greatly to squander it in a worthless conflict.

st6 when cartwright and his band of crazies decided to oblige general Changs "last glorious war of the klingon empire" after praxis

Well to be honest I only watched the undiscovered country like once and it just didn't click with me but combing through the script from trekcore yes there did appear to be a conspiracy among starfleet, and a photon torpedo merchant of all things, and Klingons to start a war between them.

Frankly I think a more grevious offense would be the whole kill the president, even if I thought he sounded like a wimp, then lining up your ships and letting your enemy commite ritual suicide.

[Praeothmin]

1, why'd you call me kor?

Because I felt like it... ;)
I thought it was Kor who wrote that for some reason, sorry... :)

2, the wikis statement is completely contradicted by the actual tv series and the later brutal rape the cardassians endured by a serious fed level power in ds9

TNG did not, IMO, paint the portrait of a minor skirmish to either the Feds or the Cardies.
TNG, from what I remember, paint the portrait of a bloody war, which the Feds would have surely won, yes, but which did more then just bloody their nose...
DS9 shows us what a militaristic Federation, one who got tired of getting their asses kicked by the Borg and any enemy of the week can do when they decide to, but TNG was still showing us the idealistic, non-war-mongering Federation, and so we are not talking about the same thing here...

At the time of TNG, the Federation was not the super ass-kicking power it became in DS9...

[Admiral Breetai]

it scarred who? Ben Maxwell and miles? who else? it affected the moral and political will of the federation sure but that was about it

they put out peace feelers and ceded worlds as opposed to going "we goin whoop it all the way to cardassia" because y'know thats not how they role and only did that when faced with an enemy so brutal and tyrannical they had no choice

Because I felt like it... ;)
I thought it was Kor who wrote that for some reason, sorry... :)]

hahaha

TNG did not, IMO, paint the portrait of a minor skirmish to either the Feds or the Cardies.
TNG, from what I remember, paint the portrait of a bloody war, which the Feds would have surely won, yes, but which did more then just bloody their nose...

in a cultural and morale sense yes in a resource and personal one no

]DS9 shows us what a militaristic Federation, one who got tired of getting their asses kicked by the Borg and any enemy of the week can do when they decide to, but TNG was still showing us the idealistic, non-war-mongering Federation, and so we are not talking about the same thing here...

exactly we saw what a serious federation was capable of and it was far more then needed to mule kick the spoonheads into the next dimension

we know for a fact they fought a vastly more sedate feds was my point

At the time of TNG, the Federation was not the super ass-kicking power it became in DS9...

considering that aside from the romulan ships nothing could stand up to a top of the line fed vessel with out numeric superiority and still eek out a victory they certainly had the power


they where just friendlier

] I would agree, the question is it because the Cardies inflicted that much damage or is it because the Federation values life, even spoonhead life, too greatly to squander it in a worthless conflict

this plus cardies started slaughtering civilians and that's a type of fight the average fed civi likely didnt want to commit too

Well to be honest I only watched the undiscovered country like once and it just didn't click with me but combing through the script from trekcore yes there did appear to be a conspiracy among starfleet, and a photon torpedo merchant of all things, and Klingons to start a war between them.

really? my favorite st flick I mean aside from khan good movie man

a photon torp manufacturer too? lol really? I had no clue lol

Frankly I think a more grevious offense would be the whole kill the president, even if I thought he sounded like a wimp, then lining up your ships and letting your enemy commite ritual suicide.

eh he wasn't too much of a wimp he was in a position to negotiate an alliance between his nations most hated enemy and himself and one that would of put them in a major position over said enemy to an extent they'd likely never recover from - not invading klingon space to rescue kirk made perfect sense in that context but was kind of crummy seeing as they not only saved earth but the galaxy and also shot satan in the face

what I don't get is why the fuck he had the romulan ambassador in his secret meetings? I mean really? wtf?

why s31 encouraged or did nothing to stop such a plan either and yeah whacking the pres was pretty vicious on their part

[Lucky]

2, the wikis statement is completely contradicted by the actual tv series and the later brutal rape the cardassians endured by a serious fed level power in ds9

TNG did not, IMO, paint the portrait of a minor skirmish to either the Feds or the Cardies.
TNG, from what I remember, paint the portrait of a bloody war, which the Feds would have surely won, yes, but which did more then just bloody their nose...
DS9 shows us what a militaristic Federation, one who got tired of getting their asses kicked by the Borg and any enemy of the week can do when they decide to, but TNG was still showing us the idealistic, non-war-mongering Federation, and so we are not talking about the same thing here...

At the time of TNG, the Federation was not the super ass-kicking power it became in DS9...

What makes you think it was anything other then a minor border conflict that was almost ignored by the UFP? We only hear of it effecting one or two people that I'm a where of, and it seems like a lot of characters in the UFP like Picard have barely even heard about the fighting.

It seems like the UFP just wanted to put an end to the conflict because of actual threats like the Borg, and Romulans making noise.

[General Donner]

For machines that can't think, I believe R2 has some wicked sense of humour and is quite clever when on his own.
He's actually smarter than Pikachu and chirps a lot.

Pika!
Pika-Chu!
Pika-Pika!

[Translation: Now Pikachu's mad at you. Watch out for thunderbolts from apparent clear skies.]

On the topic of R2, there are some hilarious stats in the really old RPG books. They're blatantly contradicted even by the movies, but I thought it could be fun to quote them:

[quote="The Star Wars Source Book, on "Astromech Droids,""]The popular R2 units designed by Industrial Automaton, for example, continually monitor all systems and sensor relays, sorting through and evaluating millions of bits of information and passing only the most important to the pilot. Their complex Intellex IV internal computers perform over 10,000 operations a second. They advise and inform pilots by sending readouts to small computer monitors on the craft's dashboard, or by displaying them on the ship's holographic projection system.

All of the ship's mechanical and computerized systems can be accessed by the Droid, allowing it to reroute signals and control circuitry. Their sophisticated computers store navigational charts, hyperjump data, and evasion and tactical combat maneuvers. Up to 10 pre-programmed hyper-space jumps can be stored in these versatile units.[/quote]

Assuming those operations are standard FLOPS, it's about as fast as a 1950s Soviet computer mainframe. :)

Granted, I don't take that number seriously, but it's fun to run at rabid Warsies when they think Data's stated numbers from TNG aren't impressive.