Battle of Endor with trek ships

[Mike DiCenso]

Clearly your scaling is way off. The fireballs are maybe 50 kms in diameter. Your definition of troll is also way off. You also didn't respond to my post, except for the first word.

You need to provide counter-evidence. You have failed to do so. You must prove that the fireballs are indeed ~50 km, or concede the issue. As for the trolling complaint issue, the rules unfortunately do not forbid obstinate
behavior, however annoying.
-Mike

Your scaling has several problems, most notably the assumption that the planet is Earth sized, the ignoring of the fact that the entire planet wasn't in the shot and the lack of justification for your claim that the SW picture has smaller fireballs, especially since the right of the picture shows a glimpse of an extremely large fireball.

The planet in the ST example only had about half of it's diameter in the picture, and yet you used the full diameter in scaling the fireball? That's ridiculous.

Look to the far right of the SW mass bdz photo. It shows a glimpse of an extremely large fireball. Near the middle of the picture are smaller but still large explosions. Logically, these are probably the light turbolasers, the slightly larger one near the right are medium ones and then the glimpse of one at the far right is a heavy. They're all bigger than the qt, and the prescence of heavy smoke and molten lava implies large use of the heavy turbolasers.

Who's scaling? Nowhereman showed his work, it would behoove you to get off your duff and start showing some real work, not merely doing more hand waving, which is what I see you doing right now. Show some evidence that Solosos III is smaller than Earth, or that it being smaller will make a real difference. Also, it won't make much difference that Nowhereman used only about half the planet since he can derive a scaling using radius, not diameter. As long as he has half the planet visible, which he does, he can do that, and he did. End of story.

The other thing is dishonesty, which several people are calling you out on, namely not acknowledging that one of your primary sources was a fanmade video, intercutting actual Trek footage with that of several other sci-fi movies and TV series. If you really are unable to tell the difference between the actual Trek productions a fan movie, or photoshopped pic, then you've got a real problem.

So show your work, show your evidence, or conceed. Show us that trading card BDZ with the 11 SW ships bombarding the planet is more energetic than the Defiant's QT explosion.
-Mike

[User1462]

We also know that Federation worlds do have planetary shields from as early as TOS' "Whom Gods Destroy", so damage being limited is not suprising, and like starship shields, you still have to pound your way through them.

Also don't forget that "Whom Gods Destroy" was simply an hospital-prison planet, not a military stronghold that was actually worth defending.

Not only that, but in "The Motion Picture" we see that V'ger is able to gather information about Earth's defenses, which allowed V'ger to render them inoperative; meanwhile the novelization said without this information, Earth would have been able to hold off V'ger using its planetary defenses-- and the movie corroborates this by the fact that V'ger did draw the information, making it a "Chekov's Gun" (no relation) since there's no point in mentioning a fact if it doesn't apply to the plot.
If Earth's defenses can hold off something like that, then that's no way the Death Star could harm it.

Of course this is "Worfized" in STIV, and the ability of some stupid alien probe to pwn Earth, but that was some unknown technology on the level with the Metrons or something, while V'ger was simply made by the Machine planet.

The Breen attack on Earth from the episode "The Changing Face of Evil" is never shown, only some brief descriptions along with an equally brief shot of some wreckage as seen here. Also note that Earth's defenses did destroy most of the Breen fleet that carried out the attack.
-Mike

The Breen had developed some weird "energy dissipator" weapon which was effective against most Federation ships, so they might have been able to invade Earth as well, since it's based on the same tech. But they didn't conquer or destroy Earth, did they?
In order to destroy Earth, the Death Star would have to similarly break down Earth's defenses; otherwise they could laugh at the superlaser, or even Corbomite it.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Ah, sorry, I didn't notice that you were using the radius.

Using a ruler, the raidus of the planet on screen is about 15 cm if you cut out the very left part from the measurement, since by that time the circle's clearly curving back down, so I measured from the peak of the arc, aka the half point. The larger explosion is about 0.5 cm. 6378.1/30 = 212, so yeah you're right, sort of.

The radius of the planet in the Star Wars example is about 22.5 cm...actually, it's slightly more, I estimated the size of the cut off left portion to be about 8 cm, so that's 30.5 cm. The medium sized explosions are about 1 cm. That gives us an explosion radius about the same as the QTs. However, in the far right we see a glimpse of a very, very large explosion. Estimated size: 2 cm?

Your calculations seem to be using the thermal radiation radius. That puts the smaller turbolaser blasts and the quantum torpedos at 500 megatons to a gigaton, while the larger turbolaser blast is about 6 gigatons. However, this is assuming that the fireballs shown from the turbolaser blasts weren't that; fireball radius, which would put their yield at almost over a teraton. Given the fact that they clearly look like fireballs, that isn't so unreasonable. Also, the turbolaser blasts are clearly having more afteraffects, creaking giant clouds of smoke and reducing the surface to molten lava. Many of the fireballs are still there despite it clearly having already been created a while before, implying a far longer fireball duration than the QTs, which disappear very quickly.

EDIT: ah, sorry, you might be referring to the airblast radius (widespread destruction) category. The results are still similar.

EDIT: also, for the QT explosions, part of the explosion is brighter, near the center. That would be the actually "fireball", while the rest is the airblast radius. Meanwhile, the turbolaser explosions are clearly fireballs, while the sort of arc of smoke being created could be the airblast radius. That would make the turbolaser blasts far, far, far higher in yield, making their radiuses more like 3 cms.

[Jedi Master Spock]

In that case, StarWarsStarTrek has trolled and I hope he/she/it gets a warning for it:

I see; yes, that should be noted.

Ah, sorry, I didn't notice that you were using the radius.

Using a ruler, the raidus of the planet on screen is about 15 cm if you cut out the very left part from the measurement, since by that time the circle's clearly curving back down, so I measured from the peak of the arc, aka the half point. The larger explosion is about 0.5 cm. 6378.1/30 = 212, so yeah you're right, sort of.

The radius of the planet in the Star Wars example is about 22.5 cm...actually, it's slightly more, I estimated the size of the cut off left portion to be about 8 cm, so that's 30.5 cm. The medium sized explosions are about 1 cm. That gives us an explosion radius about the same as the QTs. However, in the far right we see a glimpse of a very, very large explosion. Estimated size: 2 cm?

Your calculations seem to be using the thermal radiation radius. That puts the smaller turbolaser blasts and the quantum torpedos at 500 megatons to a gigaton, while the larger turbolaser blast is about 6 gigatons. However, this is assuming that the fireballs shown from the turbolaser blasts weren't that; fireball radius, which would put their yield at almost over a teraton. Given the fact that they clearly look like fireballs, that isn't so unreasonable. Also, the turbolaser blasts are clearly having more afteraffects, creaking giant clouds of smoke and reducing the surface to molten lava. Many of the fireballs are still there despite it clearly having already been created a while before, implying a far longer fireball duration than the QTs, which disappear very quickly.

EDIT: ah, sorry, you might be referring to the airblast radius (widespread destruction) category. The results are still similar.

EDIT: also, for the QT explosions, part of the explosion is brighter, near the center. That would be the actually "fireball", while the rest is the airblast radius. Meanwhile, the turbolaser explosions are clearly fireballs, while the sort of arc of smoke being created could be the airblast radius. That would make the turbolaser blasts far, far, far higher in yield, making their radiuses more like 3 cms.

I recommend you use pixels for a measurement.

I downloaded the 1600x1200 version directly from here. I get a radius of 3000 px give or take for the visible horizon, with a 30 px radius for the largest fireballs fully visible, and a radius of 50-60 px for the one partially visible - in other words, on the order of 1-2% of the horizon. Don't take my word for it; open up the picture in an image editor (MSPaint will work), and pull out a 6000 px diameter circle template and hover it over the image. (If you can't manage that, shrink the image by a factor of ten, and use a 600 px diameter circle template). You're not getting a good measurement with rulers on a screen; don't do it that way.

There are two other issues. First is perspective. When you can see, very nearly, the whole planet in the screen, as in something like "Skin of Evil," we can mostly ignore the effects of perspective. However, in this shot, we're so close to the planet that it takes up almost our entire field of view. We see perspective effects; the horizon isn't actually going to even be the full diameter of the planet at this point, and things that are directly "below" us are substantially closer than the horizon.

Thus, while the largest fireball, the one partially offscreen, might look to be 2% of the diameter of the planet, it should actually be less than that, thanks to perspective issues.

Second is the bolt count. The handful of fireballs we see on the screen represent the combined effect of two Super Star Destroyers, a half dozen ISDs, and a trio of smaller frigates. Dozens, even hundreds, of bolts are being aimed at these points; but we only see a handful of the very large fireballs. They don't appear to be the product of single shots, but of dozens or hundreds of shots.

[User1462]

That puts the smaller turbolaser blasts at 500 megatons to a gigaton, while the larger turbolaser blast is about 6 gigatons.

[Admiral Breetai]

...seriously?]

why did you just run away from..us? we have caught you either deliberately lying..or using..fan edits..as evidence by error and you've completely run from the accusation neither defending..or admitting fault..you simply high tailed it

I'm pretty sure at this point you can get punished for this crap

Hmmm...the latter two, the Star Wars examples, clearly show bigger explosions and larger aftereffects, including if you scale them properly.

And did you seriously claim that the quantum torpedo fireballs are hundreds of kms? Seriously? Wow. They're a few kms, maybe in the ten's.

what I see is officially sanctioned fan wank..that directly contradicts the primary canon..that is the movies

post me clips from the movies..or clone wars validating the use of those comics as evidence..or cease providing them

Clearly your scaling is way off. The fireballs are maybe 50 kms in diameter. Your definition of troll is also way off. You also didn't respond to my post, except for the first word.

considering you've done nothing but lie..and run from argument why are you calling this guy out?

edit-to be on topic..whats stopping one of the ships from just unloading their payload into the DSII and taking it out of the fight..they got the fire power do it in..thats for sure

[User1462]

...seriously?]

why did you just run away from..us? we have caught you either deliberately lying..or using..fan edits..as evidence by error and you've completely run from the accusation neither defending..or admitting fault..you simply high tailed it

I'm pretty sure at this point you can get punished for this crap

Hmmm...the latter two, the Star Wars examples, clearly show bigger explosions and larger aftereffects, including if you scale them properly.

And did you seriously claim that the quantum torpedo fireballs are hundreds of kms? Seriously? Wow. They're a few kms, maybe in the ten's.

what I see is officially sanctioned fan wank..that directly contradicts the primary canon..that is the movies

post me clips from the movies..or clone wars validating the use of those comics as evidence..or cease providing them

Clearly your scaling is way off. The fireballs are maybe 50 kms in diameter. Your definition of troll is also way off. You also didn't respond to my post, except for the first word.

considering you've done nothing but lie..and run from argument why are you calling this guy out?

edit-to be on topic..whats stopping one of the ships from just unloading their payload into the DSII and taking it out of the fight..they got the fire power do it in..thats for sure

IMHO, I think he's trolling through intellectual dishonesty; as I've said before, it's the worst kind of trolling, since it's impossible to prove. But since of his arguments are based on EU, then there's also no way to contest them, other than denying the whole EU itself.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

...seriously?]

why did you just run away from..us? we have caught you either deliberately lying..or using..fan edits..as evidence by error and you've completely run from the accusation neither defending..or admitting fault..you simply high tailed it

I'm pretty sure at this point you can get punished for this crap

Hmmm...the latter two, the Star Wars examples, clearly show bigger explosions and larger aftereffects, including if you scale them properly.

And did you seriously claim that the quantum torpedo fireballs are hundreds of kms? Seriously? Wow. They're a few kms, maybe in the ten's.

what I see is officially sanctioned fan wank..that directly contradicts the primary canon..that is the movies

post me clips from the movies..or clone wars validating the use of those comics as evidence..or cease providing them

Clearly your scaling is way off. The fireballs are maybe 50 kms in diameter. Your definition of troll is also way off. You also didn't respond to my post, except for the first word.

considering you've done nothing but lie..and run from argument why are you calling this guy out?

edit-to be on topic..whats stopping one of the ships from just unloading their payload into the DSII and taking it out of the fight..they got the fire power do it in..thats for sure

IMHO, I think he's trolling through intellectual dishonesty; as I've said before, it's the worst kind of trolling, since it's impossible to prove. But since of his arguments are based on EU, then there's also no way to contest them, other than denying the whole EU itself.

Did you just admit defeat? Yes, part of my arguments are based off the EU. You just admitted that my arguments cannot be contested, other than denying the whole EU itself. That would go against Lucastart's official canon policy, and would be an act of hypocrisy. This would be a good place for a smile, but the forum doesn't seem to have any.

Conclusion:

The EU is canon. The EU supports Star Wars high end feats. Star Wars wins.

Back to the topic of the thread though, star destroyers spent at least a day sitting in an asteroid field with a collision rate of at least one asteroid per second that were "multi megaton compression bombs". Moderately high end photon torpedo calculations are in the megatons...star destroyers spent at least a day sitting there taking thousands of megaton level impacts...and were fine (except for one)!

The total torpedo payload of the Enterprise was about 255, right? That's 2.55 gigatons even if we assume that all of them hit and use the rather high end claim of 10 megatons. Even if a star destroyer in the asteroid belt only took 10 megatons per minute (despite evidence showing that they took far, far, more than that), that's 14.4 gigatons...and the star destroyers, except for one, were doing just fine! The Battle of Endor space battles lasted for about...30 minutes?

But what if darkstar's 100 megaton uberwank photon torpedos were used? That's... about 25.5 gigatons! The Executor is 19 kms long. It's at least 100 times the surface area of a star destroyers. That's over a teraton it would have been hit by in the asteroid field as a lower limit. Note that the Rebel fleet was able to drop its shields. These Federation reinforcements would not.

That being said, they'd still be somewhat helpful, if they think smart, which Star Trek protagonists don't always do.

[Picard]

Denying whole EU is actually easy, beacouse:
1) EU is not canon.
http://startrek-vs-starwars.freeoda.com ... canon.html
2) Even if we allow it as being canon, it is still lower canon than G-canon, which means that anything contradicting G-canon (which gives us 1.5 Mt heavy turbolasers, 1300 TW as combat output for ISD, etc. etc.) is not canon. Which means that Star Wars high ends (ICS 2 and ICS 3) are invalid either way.

The total torpedo payload of the Enterprise was about 255, right? That's 2.55 gigatons even if we assume that all of them hit and use the rather high end claim of 10 megatons.

Photon torpedoes are 1.8 gigatons high end. Getting your info from SDN, heh?

The Battle of Endor space battles lasted for about...30 minutes?

For total of 354 megatons, althought true value is closer to 240 megatons.

[User1462]

Again, that's why we need a canon-policy; since a simple perusal of SDN shows that they've got this cult-fantasy similar to Islam's about how the EU is canon, and anyone who differs is an "agenda-driven infidel who thinks they know more than Lucas."

[Admiral Breetai]

Did you just admit defeat? Yes, part of my arguments are based off the EU. You just admitted that my arguments cannot be contested, other than denying the whole EU itself. That would go against Lucastart's official canon policy, and would be an act of hypocrisy. This would be a good place for a smile, but the forum doesn't seem to have any.

no what he said was your dishonest high handed ability to dodge an argument companied with parroting wong and the EU makes it hard to prove your guilty of something...on most forums you account would be erased for much less banned

Conclusion:

The EU is canon. The EU supports Star Wars high end feats. Star Wars wins.

the Eu contradicts primary canon..and is thus complete and total BS and is utterly unusable as valid evidence..in my thread as OP stipulations..I will not permit the use of a set of fiction that not only contradicts every single movie feat but completely blows the entire in canon prophecy about the force out...and turns Luke Skywalker into some Magneto wannabe/type of guy that'd pose a threat to friggen superman

no..just no as OP stipulation you will not be using that garbage here-even with out an OP mandate there is enough contradictions to seriously challenge it's validity in use in all VS debates

Back to the topic of the thread though, star destroyers spent at least a day sitting in an asteroid field with a collision rate of at least one asteroid per second that were "multi megaton compression bombs". Moderately high end photon torpedo calculations are in the megatons...star destroyers spent at least a day sitting there taking thousands of megaton level impacts...and were fine (except for one)!

I like how in the movie proper when ever we see an asteroid hitting an ISD it's blowing up the main towers or damaging vessels

The total torpedo payload of the Enterprise was about 255, right? That's 2.55 gigatons even if we assume that all of them hit and use the rather high end claim of 10 megatons. Even if a star destroyer in the asteroid belt only took 10 megatons per minute (despite evidence showing that they took far, far, more than that), that's 14.4 gigatons...and the star destroyers, except for one, were doing just fine! The Battle of Endor space battles lasted for about...30 minutes?

the total payload of a defiant can wipe out all life on a decent sized planet...a few hundred Q torps from an Ambassador can bust up the DS2 shields just fine

]But what if darkstar's 100 megaton uberwank photon torpedos were used? That's... about 25.5 gigatons! The Executor is 19 kms long. It's at least 100 times the surface area of a star destroyers. That's over a teraton it would have been hit by in the asteroid field as a lower limit. Note that the Rebel fleet was able to drop its shields. These Federation reinforcements would not.

or they can just y'know use P-torps or phasers it isn't like they've caused world devastating damage or..drilled into planets either y'know..in the primary canon

That being said, they'd still be somewhat helpful, if they think smart, which Star Trek protagonists don't always do.

they should do more then fine, akbar should get a clean win..or meaningful enemy damage long before han takes them shields down

IMHO, I think he's trolling through intellectual dishonesty; as I've said before, it's the worst kind of trolling, since it's impossible to prove. But since of his arguments are based on EU, then there's also no way to contest them, other than denying the whole EU itself.

what's wrong with denying the EU if you apply a strict "primary canon and consistent feats" only approach..then the EU is entirely unusable as evidence due to it being massively ooc full of officially sanctioned fan wank..and non sense

Again, that's why we need a canon-policy; since a simple perusal of SDN shows that they've got this cult-fantasy similar to Islam's about how the EU is canon, and anyone who differs is an "agenda-driven infidel who thinks they know more than Lucas."

on CBR the staff ruled the EU an alternate universe and made it illegal to use for the movie and one needed to specify the two versions

on a board I modded the S mods went a step further and ruled it completely non canon..and made it a bannable offense to post fan calcs (one of them got so fed up there was a ban on site order for SDN posters)

while I don't think the above approach is legit or fair..a separation of the two by official order from JMS..or Mike or some one may be the end to all our head aches

[User1462]

Did you just admit defeat? Yes, part of my arguments are based off the EU.

Which is wankery-- meanwhile the rest are based on wanking film-evidence, like saying that destroying Alderaan required 6e+38J--- despite that the planet's mass was STILL THERE, while this would have vapourized it 10,000 times over.

You just admitted that my arguments cannot be contested, other than denying the whole EU itself. That would go against Lucastart's official canon policy, and would be an act of hypocrisy. This would be a good place for a smile, but the forum doesn't seem to have any.

Someone get this troll outta here, I've wasted enough time with it. That is a LIE, and hence pure trolling; it can't even spell "LucasArts," and that's just a trademark subsidiary of LFL for interactive games.

Meanwhile, ironic that you call me a "hypocrite:" when discussing canon, in which case I refer you to Matt. 23:23-24, i.e. "Hypocrites! You strain your water so you won't accidentally swallow a gnat, but you swallow a camel!"
IOW, cherry-picking to get the result he wants from canon-- and that's THIS TROLL.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

no what he said was your dishonest high handed ability to dodge an argument companied with parroting wong and the EU makes it hard to prove your guilty of something...on most forums you account would be erased for much less banned

Apparently, you think that using the EU is trolling. In other words, you're wrong.

Conclusion:

the Eu contradicts primary canon..and is thus complete and total BS and is utterly unusable as valid evidence..in my thread as OP stipulations..I will not permit the use of a set of fiction that not only contradicts every single movie feat but completely blows the entire in canon prophecy about the force out...and turns Luke Skywalker into some Magneto wannabe/type of guy that'd pose a threat to friggen superman

no..just no as OP stipulation you will not be using that garbage here-even with out an OP mandate there is enough contradictions to seriously challenge it's validity in use in all VS debates

Really? Then prove it. Show to me contradictions of the EU. I suspect that your contradictions are going to be copied from ST-vs-SW, but still; show me your evidence, instead of accusing me of trolling.

I like how in the movie proper when ever we see an asteroid hitting an ISD it's blowing up the main towers or damaging vessels

On the contrary, see see asteroids hitting a star destroying when its shields are up...and doing absolutely nothing.

the total payload of a defiant can wipe out all life on a decent sized planet...a few hundred Q torps from an Ambassador can bust up the DS2 shields just fine

Now you're the one trolling if you think that a few hundred Q torpedos can bust up the Death Star 2. The Death Star's shields shrugged off supersonic/hypersonic mountain chunks hitting it...even though its shielding was said to be rather low, as a trade off to power the superlaser.

or they can just y'know use P-torps or phasers it isn't like they've caused world devastating damage or..drilled into planets either y'know..in the primary canon

Red herring, and strawman. I'm not denying that ST weapons have caused "world devastating" damage, but that doesn't have anything to do with my calculations, which you conveniently ignored.

they should do more then fine, akbar should get a clean win..or meaningful enemy damage long before han takes them shields down

And this post is substantial how? The Federation reinforcements could do little through brute force or conventional warfare. The only way that they help is by using creative tactics that they may or may not have the intelligence to think up of, and that may or may not work.

[Picard]

Apparently, you think that using the EU is trolling. In other words, you're wrong.

Using EU IS trolling, especially when we have evidence from CANON.

Really? Then prove it. Show to me contradictions of the EU. I suspect that your contradictions are going to be copied from ST-vs-SW, but still; show me your evidence, instead of accusing me of trolling.

http://startrek-vs-starwars.freeoda.com ... index.html

Now you're the one trolling if you think that a few hundred Q torpedos can bust up the Death Star 2. The Death Star's shields shrugged off supersonic/hypersonic mountain chunks hitting it...even though its shielding was said to be rather low, as a trade off to power the superlaser.

Non-canon wank. We know that DSI an II are fusion-powered, and if we compare it with ISD, we get 575 537 500 TW as power output, high-end (since I used estimated combat output for ISD). Standard output of GCS warp core during impulse flight is 3 200 000 TW. Since each torpedo is 600 megatons or 2.5104e+18 J, or 78.45 % of standard power output, we might take combat output as being double of that without contradicting canon.

[Nowhereman10]

Well, I did a recount of the turbolaser bolts in the trading card, and came up with at least 198 discernible bolts with most of those coming from the two SSDs. If we seriously take SWST's dubious claims about the energy being released in that bombardment at 6 gigatons... oh hell, let's be super-generous and say that it's 10 gigatons just to be fair, we have 10 GT divided by about 200 TL bolts.

So now for some basic math.

Ten gigatons is 10,000 megatons, so 10,000/200 = 50 megatons. That's it. 50 megatons per bolt. Obviously some will be a lot smaller than 50 MT and some will be much larger, but that's a pretty crappy average for ships that are supposed to be dishing out a thousand times that easily.

Thus we have 50 megatons average turbolaser bolts compared to 500-1,000 megatons or more for a single Federation quantum torpedo that's being air burst at very high altitude with the express purpose of only dispersing a highly toxic substance.

I wonder how SWST is going to weedle his/her/it's way out of this one.