A challenge to Trekkies

[Mr. Oragahn]

one would think mister Saxton some what nonobjective leaning precludes the ICS as usable evidence (biased fan calcs are biased even if official?)

but that aside there really is nothing seen in the movies that lend any credence to the fire power the ICS touts out-the mere fact that it is not supported in primary canon by any conclusive evidence should nullify it's validity in a debate

That's the point. For any other universe, well... most of them, such absurd claims would have been laughed at AND dismissed vigorously. The problem with SW was that it had a very hard core of fundies (Saxton, Wong, SDN and to a slightly lesser degree SBC a few years ago) so they could, with appeals to authority, cherry picking and enough violence, get their paradigm accepted by the rest. The reality is that those who go by the ICS stats are either ignoramuses (they believe in because they know very little globally), idiots (they just don't get it) or dishonest brats (they know it's bull but they go with it nonetheless).

[Admiral Breetai]

That's the point. For any other universe, well... most of them, such absurd claims would have been laughed at AND dismissed vigorously. The problem with SW was that it had a very hard core of fundies (Saxton, Wong, SDN and to a slightly lesser degree SBC a few years ago) so they could, with appeals to authority, cherry picking and enough violence, get their paradigm accepted by the rest. The reality is that those who go by the ICS stats are either ignoramuses (they believe in because they know very little globally), idiots (they just don't get it) or dishonest brats (they know it's bull but they go with it nonetheless).

that seems to only be an issue on sci fi primary vs forums because in comic ones when ever any one from Sb or SDn or asvs tries to bring up the EU it usually gets disqualified as valid due to the contradictions and rules regarding them being allot stricter

appeals to authority of three known fanatics how ever influential should never be allowed to decide policy across multiple forums..the mere fact that they can achieve this through bullying..and it seems very few people can muster up the agression to go "no..take your ICS calcs and leave 'em" is..the saddest thing about Sw fans..its become like a mini hate group

[Praeothmin]

So, StarWarsStarTrek, you concede on all our arguments, I gather, since you've failed to address even 1 of my points... :)

[Khas]

Just your points? I don't think a single one of my points was addressed either!

[Trinoya]

I'm STILL waiting for where we see gigatons in G or T cannon that wasn't a result of a death star.

[Praeothmin]

Just your points? I don't think a single one of my points was addressed either!

That's because your just repeated my points... ;)

And he's currently busy evading us in the Darkstar rebuttal thread with WILGA...

[Who is like God arbour]

And he's currently busy evading us in the Darkstar rebuttal thread with WILGA...

And right so. That's more important than your little squabbling.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

So, StarWarsStarTrek, you concede on all our arguments, I gather, since you've failed to address even 1 of my points... :)

I'll respond to them when I have time, but responding to the long ones takes almost an hour, time that I don't have right now.

[Trinoya]

Surely mine shouldn't take that long? I just want you to show me somewhere in G or T cannon where we have a 200 gigaton effect from a weapon fired by a capital ship... surely a screenshot or a novel quote can't be too difficult to find. Naturally I'm not interested in the chain reaction death star, as that's a whole different ball game.

Hell, I just want you to show me a 1 gigaton effect. ONE... GIGATON... surely a weapon a hundred times more powerful than our most powerful nuclear weapons on earth should be plain as day to find.

...

Anywhere.

...

Please.

[Praeothmin]

Exactly, like Trinoya said, just showing us 1 well-done argument would be a good start, like, for example, the evidence of hundreds of km range for battles in RotJ... :)

[Mr. Oragahn]

Surely mine shouldn't take that long? I just want you to show me somewhere in G or T cannon where we have a 200 megaton effect from a weapon fired by a capital ship... surely a screenshot or a novel quote can't be too difficult to find. Naturally I'm not interested in the chain reaction death star, as that's a whole different ball game.

Hell, I just want you to show me a 1 megaton effect. ONE... MEGATON... surely a weapon a hundred times more powerful than our most powerful nuclear weapons on earth should be plain as day to find.

...

Anywhere.

...

Please.

Corrected.

[Picard]

Actually, we do have 1 megaton in RotS novelization.

" The skies of Coruscant blaze with war.
The artificial daylight spread by the capital's orbital mirrors is sliced by intersecting flames of ion drives and punctuated by starburst explosions; contrails of debris raining into the atmosphere become tangled ribbons of cloud. The nightside sky is an infinite lattice of shining hairlines that interlock planetoids and track erratic spirals of glowing gnats. Beings watching from rooftops of Coruscant's endless cityscape can find it beautiful.

From the inside, it's different. The gnats are drive-glows of starfighters. The shining hairlines are light-scatter from turbolaser bolts powerful enough to vaporize a small town. The planetoids are capital ships."

Gives 1 to 1.5 megatons.

But it is only instance where such firepower is even implied... medium turbolasers (seen in TESB asteroid chase scene) are 15.6 kilotons, high-end... unless one wants to argue these asteroids were from real-life neutronium (not SW one, which seems to be just some kind of aluminium).

[User1462]

one would think mister Saxton some what nonobjective leaning precludes the ICS as usable evidence (biased fan calcs are biased even if official?)

but that aside there really is nothing seen in the movies that lend any credence to the fire power the ICS touts out-the mere fact that it is not supported in primary canon by any conclusive evidence should nullify it's validity in a debate

That's the point. For any other universe, well... most of them, such absurd claims would have been laughed at AND dismissed vigorously. The problem with SW was that it had a very hard core of fundies (Saxton, Wong, SDN and to a slightly lesser degree SBC a few years ago) so they could, with appeals to authority, cherry picking and enough violence, get their paradigm accepted by the rest. The reality is that those who go by the ICS stats are either ignoramuses (they believe in because they know very little globally), idiots (they just don't get it) or dishonest brats (they know it's bull but they go with it nonetheless).

This is another problem with assuming the EU as canon, since like they say, if you get enough monkeys with enough word-processors, then they're going to write everything possible. And that's precisely what we've got with the EU.

This is why I asked if anyone was coordinating the claims, since otherwise there must be a presumption of non-canon, if Joe Blow writes a novel which involves that a new ray-gun can shoot 500 terratons, and LFL publishes it without inspection in order to make sure it falls within canon-limits. That's plain obvious.

[Admiral Breetai]

[

I'll respond to them when I have time, but responding to the long ones takes almost an hour, time that I don't have right now.

if you wanna answer some one who wont bother with long arguments or math you can go ahead and answer me..why in gods name should I even bother entertaining any Eu material when it blatantly contradicts the primary source of canon..the films regardless of what some dude who works at ILM says...what bases..do you justify the feats we see in the EU and provide me something other then editorial statements or non canon fan calcs..to validate its use? especially the ICS don't link me to some speculative page about asteroid density..for ESB either..i mean on panel consistent feats as the saying goes from the movies that validates the use of this heap of officially sanctioned fan wanked non sense that is the bulk of the expanded universes technical stuff

[

That's the point. For any other universe, well... most of them, such absurd claims would have been laughed at AND dismissed vigorously. The problem with SW was that it had a very hard core of fundies (Saxton, Wong, SDN and to a slightly lesser degree SBC a few years ago) so they could, with appeals to authority, cherry picking and enough violence, get their paradigm accepted by the rest. The reality is that those who go by the ICS stats are either ignoramuses (they believe in because they know very little globally), idiots (they just don't get it) or dishonest brats (they know it's bull but they go with it nonetheless).

This is another problem with assuming the EU as canon, since like they say, if you get enough monkeys with enough word-processors, then they're going to write everything possible. And that's precisely what we've got with the EU.

This is why I asked if anyone was coordinating the claims, since otherwise there must be a presumption of non-canon, if Joe Blow writes a novel which involves that a new ray-gun can shoot 500 terratons, and LFL publishes it without inspection in order to make sure it falls within canon-limits. That's plain obvious.[/quote]

theres a pretty easy method of doing this though and its not "finding the magical smoking gun statement by lucas that puts the final nail in the coffin" its..entirely dismissing any ..examples canon or other wise that contradict the primary sources consistent showings

its a different method of debate but it works real well and avoids head aches like this

[Praeothmin]

One problem we have if we ignore the EU then is that SW ships go in the hundreds, in not millions, of c, since only in the EU do we see really short speeds, or the mention of Hyperlanes.
So if the EU is not Canon, than SW ships go hundreds of thousands to millions of c and don't need Hyperlanes to do so...