A challenge to Trekkies

[Mike DiCenso]

Are you seriously claiming that Star Trek gravity tech is on par with that of a black hole?

Are you really saying this after I provided 6 examples of Federation starships surviving in close proximinity to black holes and neutron stars?
-Mike

[Picard]

Yeah, but if Jango used 2 kiloton shots he would not have have had the same rate of fire as he would if he were to use the settings that he used.

Yet shots that he did fire drained power packs of weapon.

The droid army was over a million in that battle.

And 80-90% of it were standard dumb battle droids, which are about as combat-capable as drunk Ferengi on crack.

Fist sized bombs? That seems to be pretty small, thus making it an impressive feat.

On reactor? Not quite.

They owned a large area of the galaxy but only needed to inhabit a small portion of it, although "small" is still 3 orders of magnitude larger than the Federation.

And yet old Republic controlled only "thousands" of systems. Etc, I do not have time to reply to rest of your post.

[Lucky]

You need to respond to other people then myself. You may want to respond to Darkstar in in Rebuttal to darkstar's website he is 2046 at this site as I recall.

False analogy. A better analogy would be if there was a book on WW2 tanks, and a book talked about a tank and said that it was later refitted with sloped armor after the war.

The ICS-II does not say the picture is of a later model. It say it is the model seen in the movies.

Besides dinosaurs of the Cretaceous are just later and more advanced designs of dinosaurs of the Jurassic.

Hmmm...ok, but again, there would be different versions of the Acclamator, especially since the First Battle of Geonosis was the first battle of the Clone Wars and the Clone Army had to rush there.

But no other versions appeared in episode 2, and the book says the version shown is the version in the movie.

Do you have any examples of this?

Off the top of my head the Invisible Hand.

Was this on a mountain? Or a bridge? Or what?

Watch the episodes about retaking Ryloth. episodes.

To the left is a veridical cliff we can't see the top on.

To the right is a gorge we are lead to believe is extremely deep, and is to wide for the AT-ETs and troops to cross. On the other side of the gorge are CIS battle droids and tanks shooting at the Republic forces.

The Republic forces are on a path/road so narrow AT-ETs must travel single file.

Yeah, but if Jango used 2 kiloton shots he would not have have had the same rate of fire as he would if he were to use the settings that he used.

http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWICS.html
Scroll down, and you will see a full power shot from Slave-I by Boba Fett in an attempt to kill Obi-won.

And there is plenty of evidence that they do. How powerful were those flak bursts? How many times did they hit? Where did they hit? Was this made clear in the episode?

Watch the episode

The hits looked smaller then this, and I don't think the blast when Obi-won turned the guns on each other, and blew up the extra ammo with the guns was 100 tons..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eU8joiS62js

Yet if the Germans had a theater shield, the Allies obviously wouldn't be able to do that.

The Germans would have still been bombed to hell because like their Star wars counter parts they would not turn on their shields until the gound troops were about to attack..

Wasn't there a theater shield?

Shields are useless unless they are turned on.

The droid army was over a million in that battle.

Yet 200,000 clones and a few hundred(?) jedi won the battle and took the planet by taking the droids out 1 or 2 at a time.

The total droid army was 100 droids for ever one clone. 3,000,000 X 100= total number of droids in the CIS army.

Fist sized bombs? That seems to be pretty small, thus making it an impressive feat.

The fist sized bomb was planted on a reactor. The picture is the reactor blowing up.

Ok, and?

Half a gigaton will make the ground shake as if there is an earthquake.

Evidence? Examples? Hello?

The invisable hand comes to mind, and the Venator from jedi crash.

Correct, which is a lot.

To bad they never seem to do it.

Mandalore maybe, but Coruscant? Mandalore in some cases had a population of a few million; Coruscant's population was in the trillions.

It's easier to meet the needs of a smaller number of people then a larger one. If Mandalore can't do it why should we assume Coruscant can?

They owned a large area of the galaxy but only needed to inhabit a small portion of it, although "small" is still 3 orders of magnitude larger than the Federation.

Maps show the star wars galaxy to be in the low doubt diget thousands at best, and those maps show about maybe 25% of the galaxy to be call unknown region, or wild space.

You have a galaxy that is possibly about 10,000 light years across, about 25% of it is "wild space", and a tiny part of the galaxy if the Empire/Republic

The UFP is 8,000 light year long

It could be for trade; that is, planets in Star Wars are economically interdependent on each other due to the existence of casual galactic trade. However, this does not equate to not being able to sustain itself in terms of food and water.

Do watch the series. It's not casual trade. You wouldn't get revolts against the government if that was the case. They wouldn't turn to smugglers to get food and water. I know that sounds stupid, but it's canon.

Quote from wookieepedia (it's cited):

With no other bodies of water available to feed and water its trillion inhabitants, Coruscant's architects, along with many others from around the galaxy, worked together to build a self-contained eco-system in the massive buildings set all over the planet. Polar cap stations also melted ice and distributed water throughout the planet-wide city through a complex series of pipes.[2]

That's interesting, and makes sense, but we see no sign of that.

You really should post the link to the page you are getting the information from.

By "several books" you probably mean Star Wars: Death Star, which is does NOT imply a chain reaction.

I'm thinking of the novelization of the movie, the movie, and a few others.

This is further supported by the earlier example of a 33% power superlaser blowing up a planet in 3 bursts; no chain reaction shown, simply 3 powerful bursts.

They shoot three times at about one third the of full power, and get different results each time with the third blowing up the planet. That is not what a DET weapon does.

What battle droids? Regular ones? Super battle droids? Droidekas? It isn't specified; it could have been B3 ultra battle droids.

The episode just said 3,000,000 battle drpoids had been purchased. It was suppose to be enough to defeat the Republic is all that matters even though it's to tiny a number to even realistically take a single planet.

Uh, not really. The Republic curbstomping the CIS in the Battle of Geonosis implies that the CIS wasn't exactly ready for all out war yet.

Uh, not really. The Republic curbstomping the CIS in the Battle of Geonosis implies that the CIS wasn't exactly ready for all out war yet.

More like they got caught flatfooted not knowing the Republic even had an army/navy.

But they can still used hyperspace like that, which is STILL far faster than warp drive.

Read this page to see how slow hyper-drives can be http://st-v-sw.net/Obsidian/PropulsionTechnologies.html

I suggest you read all of The Obsidian Order Project it has lots of interesting quotes about what Star Wars ships can do.
http://st-v-sw.net/Obsidian/STSWObsid-Order.html

I will when I have time.

The TV series episodes are only 20 something minutes long. It also does not really matter what order you watch them in so long as you watch the two and three part episodes in order.

The movie is going to take about an hour. I'd almost say go to a movie rental place to get

The Empire owned a large part of the galaxy. They only INHABITED a small potion of the galaxy because they didn't NEED to inhabit every planet.

That conflicts with G-canon, and is therefor wrong.
A thread on the topic
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... 1478&hilit

By the time of ROTJ, most of the CIS material would likely have been used, unless if they kept a bunch of recyled stuff around for 20 years, which is highly unlikely.

That might explain why they decided to not wait for the Death Star-II to be finished, and the Emperor put such a risky plan in motion..

Except that it isn't specified how large the staff was or what grade durasteal it was, and one can bend a steel staff if it's thin enough.

3 a long stick used as a support when walking or climbing or as a weapon.
• a rod or scepter held as a sign of office or authority.
• short for flagstaff .
• Surveying a rod for measuring distances or heights.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staff_(stick)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_(staff)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Level_staff
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bō
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quarterstaff
Google staff

It's vague, but not as vague as you seem to think

I have never seen any grades of durasteel. It seems to be durasteel or not durasteel.

Star Wars: Death Star.

What about the fusion reactors we see?

There is little evidence that Star Wars still uses conventional steel en mass; if the Death Star isn't durasteel, it's probably some titanium alloy, as starfighters and possibly capital ships are made of.

It would be stupid for them to not use common things like carbon and iron(steel).
http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWcompare.html#Armor

Yeah, and?

The Death Stars are mostly empty space.

Uh, no. That's an impossibility.

Why is it impossible for UFP humans to have gone from 1000 worlds to 1,000,000?

And the Yuuzhang Vong had over 300 trillion casualties.

When you have most if not all of your population on ships, and you use those ships to attack things a lot of people are going to die.

Technicality; does it really matter?

It does if they don't want to be part of your empire.

No evidence of that.

Except the station it's self, the system it resided in, things like the Maw, all the weird single climit planets. It's actually seems the Rakata are the terraformers.

Ok, and?

That was Archer's era, and they only improved.

There stuff in DS9 that points to them having perfected The Genesis Device technology.

They even solform stars.

Which doesn't mean much if we don't know how big the 5 million figure was in terms of importance. Was the entire Senate debating over it? Did it specifically state 5 million clones or 5 million units?

It's clones, but logically we can throw in the cost of the equipment and training for them as well. Naked clones who might as well be infants when it comes to mental capabilities aren't very useful

Star Wars characters are pretty smart compared to the competence of standard Star Trek characters.

Come on, some some evidence. They let the trade fed trade with both sides, and let the trade fed blockade worlds on a whim during the war with the CIS.

Uh, what? Are you kidding? An entire breen fleet caused about 8 million casualties.

Considering trek ships throw around kiloton(Silly low end calc that makes no sense) weapons that move at FTL speeds that seems low.

I guess you just prove the Earth has a shield, and ground based weapons.^_^

The Yuuzhang Vong caused 300 trillion.

How did the Vong go about causing 300 trillion casualties?

I think you should start a UFP VS Vong thread.

Uh, where does it talk about repulsorlifts?

Where I say the author said anti-gravity, but meant electromagnetic, and like many did not know the difference.

The same book that you indirectly used as evidence says otherwise.

Well when something contradicts G-canon G always wins.

Star Wars: Death Star, one of the main characters talked about the Death Star keeping the G at lower than usually in order to allow for quick movement in emergencies.

So they lower the internal artificial gravity to somehow lower the stresses put on the passengers, or the ships?

Even without pre charter hyperlanes, Star Wars ships have been shown to move several orders of mangitude faster than Star Trek ships.

You need to provide proof that without hyperlanes Star Wars ships can go hundreds of thousands of C

Or they die as make hyper-jumps without knowing where you are going is bad as shown in Jedi crash, and A New hope, and this ignores the fact that hyperdrives often only go hundreds of times the speed of light.

The Republic could not continue the war with the CIS when they lost the use of their hyper lanes.Given the way operation are run that means the Hyper-laneless hyper-drives are at best a lot slow say a

http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=157833

1. Complete speculation, since almost no Force user has shown the capability of charting out a plot through tens of thousands of light years while moving at millions of times C.

Then you can provide proof of this? The Rakata certainly seemed to use the force to navigate.

2. Evidence? It was in the outer rim, hardly a center of galactic trade.

Considering the Rim is possibly the biggest market
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Outer_Rim_Territories
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mid_Rim

Uh, what? You aren't going to get all anti Star Wars, are you?

Purhaps silly, whimsicle, or light hearted would be better.
I find that Star Wars is best when it is not taking it's self very seriously. Episode 1, 4, 6, and the SW: TCW cgi movie are the best.

Even Jocasta Nu, who Obi Wan stated was one of the most knowledgeable people in the galaxy, did not know about Kamino. Obviously it didn't show up in the holonet either, or else Obi Wan could have gone there. Kamino was practically unknown to the public before the Clone Wars.

Obviously a lot of people knew where it was, and how to get there, or else Obi-won would not have been able to get there.

It seems the Jedi records were like tampered with.

Ok...and?

Meaning the UFP can mine the lanes, and stop everyone from traveling with hyperdrives like they mined the Wormhole in DS9.

It's not an easy thing to just go around the mined area.

When using a hyperlane, ok...and?

, and if the lanes are mined they you have to find a completely different way to get from point A to point B. It's not a matter of simply going around the mines.

Maybe for micro hyperjumps, but what is this supposed to prove?

It means travel times increase a lot. Watch the Malevolence trilogy to under stand.

To make any hostile races screw off, to take the fight to the borg and blow up their planets.

Just like we do that with nukes in the Real world? Nuclear powers just throw around nukes willy nilly.

The fact of the matter is that if you destroy the star/planet you lose resources, and make others more likely to want to blast you into the stone age, and do remember what happened in "Survivors".

The Borg are not based on planets, and at best you just destroyed .00001% of their forces. Keep in mind the Borg is a it, and not a them.

Yet they don't use them to wipe out the borg, or the dominion or any of the other threats they've faced. They typically use it for exploration missions.

How do you know they don't? There are actually time police in the UFP's future making sure things turn out okay.

Thanks for conceding that transporters can't go through shields.

Where did I say they can't beam through shields?

The borg supposedly have millions of cubes, yet they only send one at a time. It would hardly be a strain on their resources to send 2, especially since they have no known threats other than species 8472.

The fact the Borg are not really trying to assimilate the UFP tells us that they are not all that interested in assimilating the UFP. The Borg could likely do it with just one ship.

There is likely something about the UFP that it find interesting. It knows the UFP has been able to defeat it's cubes when by all rights they should not have been able to, and keeps adapting to better repel it. I also don't recall there being a UFP type group anywhere else in Star trek.

Then why didn't the borg use it to warp strafe Earth? Answer: because the borg are morons.

Why would the Borg do it? It doesn't want to destroy the Earth, or the UFP. It seems mildly interested in the UFP.

Concession accepted.

There are actual quotes that state that what is seen on screen if often not what is really happening. The makers of the show are limited by a number of things like money, man power, and technology. Do you honestly think trek ships randomly change size and design?

The above, plus the Federation's pathetic ground forces.

You made a claim that imperial storm troopers/Republic clone troopers are more competent then UFP ground forces. Saying something is so does not prove it.

Are you seriously claiming that Star Trek gravity tech is on par with that of a black hole?

If it was only on par with a black hole then it would not be able to overcome a black hole, or make one on a whim. We have already proved this.

[Praeothmin]

An entire breen fleet caused about 8 million casualties.

You mean the fleet that was attacking a planet with planetary defenses?
Which, since ST uses shields to protect even Penal colonies or Psychiatric hospital planets, must have had shields over Starfleet HQ...

[Mike DiCenso]

Where does SWST get this 8 million causalty figure from? It's certainly not from any dialog in "The Changing Face of Evil". The closest anyone comes to that is not from anyone in the Federation, but from Damar when he says that seven million Cardassian soldiers have died in 2 years of fighting.

Also most of the Breen fleet was destroyed by Starfleet. Compare this with Star Wars where during the Clone Wars as well as prior to it the planets, Naboo, Ryloth, Christophsis, Kashyyyk and so on were unable to stop the enemy forcess from landing, and setting up blockades in space. Of all the more than 150 Federation member worlds, only Betazed falls to the Domion in over 2 years of fighting, mostly due to the protecting fleet being caught off-guard and the planet having undermanned and out of date defenses.
-Mike

[StarWarsStarTrek]

You need to respond to other people then myself. You may want to respond to Darkstar in in Rebuttal to darkstar's website he is 2046 at this site as I recall.

I'm busy, but I'll try.

The ICS-II does not say the picture is of a later model. It say it is the model seen in the movies.

Evidence please.

Besides dinosaurs of the Cretaceous are just later and more advanced designs of dinosaurs of the Jurassic.

...

But no other versions appeared in episode 2, and the book says the version shown is the version in the movie.

Again, evidence please.

Off the top of my head the Invisible Hand.

Those were flak cannons, not turbolasers. Said flak cannons were designed to shoot down starfighters and missiles, so obviously they wouldn't do as well against Star Wars capital ships.

Watch the episodes about retaking Ryloth. episodes.

To the left is a veridical cliff we can't see the top on.

To the right is a gorge we are lead to believe is extremely deep, and is to wide for the AT-ETs and troops to cross. On the other side of the gorge are CIS battle droids and tanks shooting at the Republic forces.

The Republic forces are on a path/road so narrow AT-ETs must travel single file.

And firing full powered shots would do what, exactly? What advantage would full powered shots that might simply miss have against multiple smaller powered shots? AT-ETs are hardly that durable or well armored by Star Wars standards.

http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWICS.html
Scroll down, and you will see a full power shot from Slave-I by Boba Fett in an attempt to kill Obi-won.

Except that it wasn't a "full power shot", nor was it even the main laser cannons.

Watch the episode

The hits looked smaller then this, and I don't think the blast when Obi-won turned the guns on each other, and blew up the extra ammo with the guns was 100 tons..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eU8joiS62js

When I watch the Battle of Ryloth episode (I will, trust me), I'll respond to this. Hopefully today or tomorrow.

The Germans would have still been bombed to hell because like their Star wars counter parts they would not turn on their shields until the gound troops were about to attack..

What? If you had a theater shield that could stop air bombardment, why wouldn't you turn it on during an enemy air raid?

Shields are useless unless they are turned on.

And, of course, you need to provide evidence supporting your claim that the shields were off or concede.

Yet 200,000 clones and a few hundred(?) jedi won the battle and took the planet by taking the droids out 1 or 2 at a time.

Those are 5 to 1 numerical odds. You seem to think that winning against 5 to 1 odds is somehow impossible, but it really isn't, especially when you have the element of surprise, Jedi, air superiority, armored support, better equipment and better training on your side and are facing dumbass battle droids whose intelligence is questionable.

The total droid army was 100 droids for ever one clone. 3,000,000 X 100= total number of droids in the CIS army.

Except that "100 to one" is a common figure of speech that isn't always literal; in fact, it rarely is. For example, Han Solo in a book said that these new Mandalorian starfighters could go through supernovas. Do you want me to use that figure of speech against you?

The fist sized bomb was planted on a reactor. The picture is the reactor blowing up.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but a fusion reactor will not "blow up" in any chain reaction if a bomb were to blow it up. Star Wars only uses hypermatter for things such as star destroyers and other space ships, but in buildings they typically use fusion reactors; although not necessarily any fusion that we know of, and there's no evidence that said fusion reactor would be like a lighted bomb.

Half a gigaton will make the ground shake as if there is an earthquake.

Fair enough, but how does that negatively affect Star Wars in this debate, if at all? What's your point? Are you admitting that Star Wars ships can destroy Star Trek ground installations with even near misses?

The invisable hand comes to mind, and the Venator from jedi crash.

Details for the second one? For the first one, I explained that earlier in this post.

To bad they never seem to do it.

Because channeling all their power to their main guns would leave them extremely exposed to return fire and would reduce their mobility and other important things. Power isn't unlimited.

It's easier to meet the needs of a smaller number of people then a larger one. If Mandalore can't do it why should we assume Coruscant can?

Because Coruscant has been a stable planet in terms of food/water supplies for a long time, whereas Mandalore is repeatably facing purges and severe population decreases do to various reasons.

Maps show the star wars galaxy to be in the low doubt diget thousands at best, and those maps show about maybe 25% of the galaxy to be call unknown region, or wild space.

*sigh* Not this whole "omg the Star Wars galaxy is 'modest sized' ha" thing again. The Star Wars essential atlas; or was it the new essential atlas? something like that, states that the Star Wars galaxy is 120,000 LYs across.

You have a galaxy that is possibly about 10,000 light years across, about 25% of it is "wild space", and a tiny part of the galaxy if the Empire/Republic

The UFP is 8,000 light year long

Double standard, not only is the 10,000 LY figure for the Star Wars galaxy BS, but the UFP also only inhabits a very small portion of its 8,000 LY territory.

Do watch the series. It's not casual trade. You wouldn't get revolts against the government if that was the case. They wouldn't turn to smugglers to get food and water. I know that sounds stupid, but it's canon.

If the United States were cut off from the rest of the world for some reason, it WOULD suffer major instability due to its economy crashing, and possibly suffer a huge oil crisis. However, in the short term it will not suffer a major food or water shortage iirc.

That's interesting, and makes sense, but we see no sign of that.

Where could there be a "sign" needed for that? It isn't contradicted so it stands as valid.

You really should post the link to the page you are getting the information from.

Uh, I DID. Wookieepedia, and Wookiepedia also cites it.

I'm thinking of the novelization of the movie, the movie, and a few others.

Evidence?

They shoot three times at about one third the of full power, and get different results each time with the third blowing up the planet. That is not what a DET weapon does.

Since when? If someone shoots a missile at a tank, the first shot will not cause the same damage as the next two, especially since modern tanks have very formidable armor. Evidence shows that the Death Star's superlaser was indeed DET, because a chain reaction weapon would be unlikely to work via 3 bursts.

The episode just said 3,000,000 battle drpoids had been purchased. It was suppose to be enough to defeat the Republic is all that matters even though it's to tiny a number to even realistically take a single planet.

"be enough to defeat the Republic" - evidence or concede.

More like they got caught flatfooted not knowing the Republic even had an army/navy.

Which proves the point that the CIS was not ready for full scale war, since they had no counter to many of the weaponry that the Republic had.

Read this page to see how slow hyper-drives can be http://st-v-sw.net/Obsidian/PropulsionTechnologies.html

I suggest you read all of The Obsidian Order Project it has lots of interesting quotes about what Star Wars ships can do.
http://st-v-sw.net/Obsidian/STSWObsid-Order.html

G canon > those sources, given that G canon shows hyperdrive speeds in the tens of millions of C.

The TV series episodes are only 20 something minutes long. It also does not really matter what order you watch them in so long as you watch the two and three part episodes in order.

The movie is going to take about an hour. I'd almost say go to a movie rental place to get

Actually, I watched the movie.

That conflicts with G-canon, and is therefor wrong.
A thread on the topic
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... 1478&hilit

Actually, one of the G canon novels mentions 1 million star systems, so G canon actually proves my point.

That might explain why they decided to not wait for the Death Star-II to be finished, and the Emperor put such a risky plan in motion..

They completed the Death Star 2 to 60% completion in 6 months. This is an astronomically large display of industrial might. Do you understand how large of a feat this is? A 900 km battle station constructed to 60% completion in 6 months is a feat beyond anything that the Federation can construct.

3 a long stick used as a support when walking or climbing or as a weapon.
• a rod or scepter held as a sign of office or authority.
• short for flagstaff .
• Surveying a rod for measuring distances or heights.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staff_(stick)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_(staff)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Level_staff
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bō
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quarterstaff
Google staff

It's vague, but not as vague as you seem to think

Those are not exactly thick staffs. Again, iirc bending a thin enough staff is possible even if it's made out of high grade steel, simply because it's super thin.

I have never seen any grades of durasteel. It seems to be durasteel or not durasteel.

Are you seriously saying that durasteel doesn't have varying grades of quality, even though practically EVERY material has varying degrees of quality? Are you saying that a durasteel staff in Star Wars would have the same quality as a Star Wars reinforced bunker?

What about the fusion reactors we see?

What fusion reactors? We don't see any fusion reactors in the Death Star, not in G canon, which you claim overrides the idea of hypermatter, even though G canon does not contradict hypermatter. Thus, hypermatter is canon.

It would be stupid for them to not use common things like carbon and iron(steel).
http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWcompare.html#Armor

Star Wars does occasionally use titanium alloy hulls, especially for starfighters. However, said alloys are obviously far stronger than any alloys that we have today.

The Death Stars are mostly empty space.

Which does not make it any easier for Death Star to not collapse on itself, which it clearly didn't.

Why is it impossible for UFP humans to have gone from 1000 worlds to 1,000,000?

Because such a population boom would have been mentioned and yet we see no such evidence of a 1000 to 1 million leap in planets.

When you have most if not all of your population on ships, and you use those ships to attack things a lot of people are going to die.

Which the Yuuzhang Vong war proved. The fact that Star Wars took over 300 trillion casualties and yet was still able to function shows its clearly massive scale compared to Star Trek.

It does if they don't want to be part of your empire.

Why is it that Trekkies only let the Empire on the Star Wars side, and yet allow a bunch of various powers on their side, including the borg?

Except the station it's self, the system it resided in, things like the Maw, all the weird single climit planets. It's actually seems the Rakata are the terraformers.

Except that there is evidence that the rakata were less advanced than the PT/OT/post OT Star Wars galaxy, and there is no evidence that they went around teraforming millions of planets when they themselves only controlled a few dozen.

That was Archer's era, and they only improved.

You have not compared this with Star Wars teraforming, and thus your feat isn't in perspective.

There stuff in DS9 that points to them having perfected The Genesis Device technology.

They even solform stars.

Really? Evidence?

It's clones, but logically we can throw in the cost of the equipment and training for them as well. Naked clones who might as well be infants when it comes to mental capabilities aren't very useful

Please provide details. The situation/context, etc.

Come on, some some evidence. They let the trade fed trade with both sides, and let the trade fed blockade worlds on a whim during the war with the CIS.

In comparison, the Federation engages ships at almost literally spitting distance, mix up "joules" and "watts", and on the ground charge into battle with pajamas and no combined arms tactics.

Considering trek ships throw around kiloton(Silly low end calc that makes no sense) weapons that move at FTL speeds that seems low.

I guess you just prove the Earth has a shield, and ground based weapons.^_^

Except that we clearly see the weapons being fired and HITTING cities, causing kiloton level explosions. A common trekkie counterargument would be to claim that the shields lessoned the damage, except that ST shields don't seem to "lesson" the damage of weapons, but instead stop them until the shields go down.

How did the Vong go about causing 300 trillion casualties?

With massive fleets and powerful armies far more powerful than any Federation fleet?

I think you should start a UFP VS Vong thread.

Perhaps.

]
Where I say the author said anti-gravity, but meant electromagnetic, and like many did not know the difference.

Evidence?

Well when something contradicts G-canon G always wins.

Except that you haven't provided any contradiction from G canon, and thus your "it's contradicted by G canon!" claim is unsupported.

So they lower the internal artificial gravity to somehow lower the stresses put on the passengers, or the ships?

Presumably the passengers, based on the text, but maybe both.

You need to provide proof that without hyperlanes Star Wars ships can go hundreds of thousands of C

More than that; hyperdrives can go tens of millions of C, as shown when Obi Wan went to Kamino, or the numerous examples of ships moving across the galaxy in a matter of hours.

Or they die as make hyper-jumps without knowing where you are going is bad as shown in Jedi crash, and A New hope, and this ignores the fact that hyperdrives often only go hundreds of times the speed of light.

What part of the fact that Star Wars ships can cross the galaxy in hours don't you understand? 100s of C could not accomplish that; tens of millions of C would, thus proof that Star Wars ships are astronomically fast.

The Republic could not continue the war with the CIS when they lost the use of their hyper lanes.Given the way operation are run that means the Hyper-laneless hyper-drives are at best a lot slow say a

http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=157833

Evidence that they "could not continue the war" instead of that they would be logistically harmed?

Then you can provide proof of this? The Rakata certainly seemed to use the force to navigate.

The infinite empire was actually very small by Star Wars standards mainly because of their limited hyperdrive capabilities compared to later Star Wars civilizations.

Considering the Rim is possibly the biggest market
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Outer_Rim_Territories
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mid_Rim

The outer rims might have been perhaps the biggest black market, but in terms of economic might the core worlds were obviously larger.


What you still don't seem to understand is that KAMINO WASN'T EVEN KNOWN TO MOST OF THE GALAXY! Hence why Obi Wan had to FIND Kamino first. To suggest that Obi Wan used a hyperlane to get there when Kamino was hardly known to anybody is a little ridiculous.

Purhaps silly, whimsicle, or light hearted would be better.
I find that Star Wars is best when it is not taking it's self very seriously. Episode 1, 4, 6, and the SW: TCW cgi movie are the best.

Eh, the SW:TCW cgi was good, but not great compared to the main movies.

Obviously a lot of people knew where it was, and how to get there, or else Obi-won would not have been able to get there.

Did you even watch AOTC? Obi Wan got the information from a friend, who in the novel he states is one of the most knowledgeable people in he knows to get information from, and even he doesn't know the exact coordinates to get there. Then, Jocasta Nu, who Obi Wan says is also one of the most knowledgeable people he knows, didn't even know of the planet's existence. And yet you're claiming that "lots of people knew where it was"? Heck, even Yoda didn't know that the planet existed, and Yoda was almost 900 years old!

It seems the Jedi records were like tampered with.

The Jedi records WERE indeed tampered with. Kamino didn't show up in Star War's astronomical amounts of libraries nor the holonet, or else Obi Wan could have found information there. If there was indeed a hyperlane plotted to Kamino, there would also be data about it, which there wasn't.

Therefore, your "Obi Wan used a hyperlane to get to Kamino!" argument is moot because Kamino was an unknown planet to 99.9999+% of the galaxy.

Meaning the UFP can mine the lanes, and stop everyone from traveling with hyperdrives like they mined the Wormhole in DS9.

Which is assuming that the UFP could find said hyperlanes somehow, have enough competence to mine them, have enough mines and ships to mine them, act fast enough to mine them and that said mines would do any more than cause minor damage to Star Wars ships. In fact, given that Star Wars ships in hyperdrive move astronomically fast, the mines might not even have fast enough reaction times to detonate; mines don't detonate easily, and a Star Wars ship going over a space mine field for less than a nanosecond isn't likely to trip it.

It's not an easy thing to just go around the mined area.

Why not, given that Star Wars ships are orders of magnitude faster than any opponent the Federation has ever faced?

, and if the lanes are mined they you have to find a completely different way to get from point A to point B. It's not a matter of simply going around the mines.

Or it could simply be withstanding the mine detonations, which would be unlikely to damage shielded star destroyers, or simply moving so fast that the mine fields would not have time to detonate, and said detonations would actually release energy SLOWER than the Star Wars ships are moving.

It means travel times increase a lot. Watch the Malevolence trilogy to under stand.

Except that even without hyperlanes Star Wars ships are FAR faster than Star Trek ships, as shown when Obi Wan traveled to Kamino in his starfighter in a matter of hours or days. Your idea that Obi Wan used a hyperlane even though nobody seemed to even know the location of Kamino is absurd.

Just like we do that with nukes in the Real world? Nuclear powers just throw around nukes willy nilly.

The point is that the Federation supposedly has some extremely powerful weapons that they lack the competence to actually use, even if said use would simply be an effective deterrence.

The fact of the matter is that if you destroy the star/planet you lose resources, and make others more likely to want to blast you into the stone age, and do remember what happened in "Survivors".

Ever heard of deterrence? Apparently, the Federation is too stupid to understand that basic theory.

The Borg are not based on planets, and at best you just destroyed .00001% of their forces. Keep in mind the Borg is a it, and not a them.

Then how would the borg produce ships? Do they magically appear out of nowhere?

How do you know they don't? There are actually time police in the UFP's future making sure things turn out okay.

So you're making the unsupported claim that the UFP has indeed been time travel attacking the borg, but we just don't hear of it, even though the borg are still around?

Where did I say they can't beam through shields?

I didn't claim that you said that they can beam through shields, but you did admit that can't. Maybe "concede" was the wrong word; perhaps "agree" is better for this scenario.

The fact the Borg are not really trying to assimilate the UFP tells us that they are not all that interested in assimilating the UFP. The Borg could likely do it with just one ship.

Or maybe the borg are simply utter morons.

There is likely something about the UFP that it find interesting. It knows the UFP has been able to defeat it's cubes when by all rights they should not have been able to, and keeps adapting to better repel it. I also don't recall there being a UFP type group anywhere else in Star trek.

Then why don't the borg send 2 cubes instead of 1 to attack it? Oh yeah, because the borg are morons.

Why would the Borg do it? It doesn't want to destroy the Earth, or the UFP. It seems mildly interested in the UFP.

Contradiction; you claim that they have a special interest in the UFP, but then claim that they have a "mild" interest in the UFP. Warp strafing could have destroyed critical Earth defense systems and infrastructure, and possibly damage the Federation fleet, but the borg are obviously too stupid to try that.

There are actual quotes that state that what is seen on screen if often not what is really happening. The makers of the show are limited by a number of things like money, man power, and technology. Do you honestly think trek ships randomly change size and design?

By that logic, your supposed contradictions from TCW are merely based off of the fact that the show is made for children that are too young to care about technical calculations, and that the creators of the shows themselves probably don't know about Star Wars ship calculations. Unlike your OOU explanation, this is actually a pretty valid explanation, given that it's basically a cartoon with other examples of ridiculousness, such as Ahsoka Tano defeating 3 magnaguards and holding off Grevious, and that the creators of the show actually admitted that the show is designed to appeal to a younger audience and is therefore exaggerated.

You made a claim that imperial storm troopers/Republic clone troopers are more competent then UFP ground forces. Saying something is so does not prove it.

Star Wars troopers have armor, NBC protection, weapons that actually have trigger guards, grenades, mortar, artillery support, HUDs, advanced communications systems, tanks, etc. Federation redshirts lack these in any consistent manner. Instead, they have phasers that don't have trigger guards and red pajamas.

If it was only on par with a black hole then it would not be able to overcome a black hole, or make one on a whim. We have already proved this.

Except that the Enterprise was barely able to escape what was a weaker than usual black hole, and needed a plot device to survive it.


Wow...that took me about an hour to type.

[User1461]

Star Wars troopers have armor, NBC protection, weapons that actually have trigger guards, grenades, mortar, artillery support, HUDs, advanced communications systems, tanks, etc. Federation redshirts lack these in any consistent manner. Instead, they have phasers that don't have trigger guards and red pajamas.

But in the end, which ones get beaten by Ewoks? Tells you something, doesn't it.

[Picard]

Those were flak cannons, not turbolasers. Said flak cannons were designed to shoot down starfighters and missiles, so obviously they wouldn't do as well against Star Wars capital ships.

Only guns we see in Invisible Hand's inventoty are these guns:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_10H8_Gaw0N0/T ... nports.jpg

You can see positioning of guns and shot fired by one of these guns in this screenshot:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_10H8_Gaw0N0/T ... nports.jpg

As you can see, thes guns
1) do not have mechanism for turning barrel left or right
2) do not have mechanism to elevate barrel (watch movie - what appears to be barrel elevating mechanism is just reloading mechanism)
3) are largest guns visible (I do not remember any other guns having ports like that)
4) are used against capital ships

And firing full powered shots would do what, exactly? What advantage would full powered shots that might simply miss have against multiple smaller powered shots? AT-ETs are hardly that durable or well armored by Star Wars standards.

Area of effect, maybe? Fact that one more powerful shot might kill way more men + destroy some vehicles? Or what about causing slide?

Except that it wasn't a "full power shot", nor was it even the main laser cannons.

Several shots that depleted power packs of weapon were sub-gigajoule.

Those are 5 to 1 numerical odds. You seem to think that winning against 5 to 1 odds is somehow impossible, but it really isn't, especially when you have the element of surprise, Jedi, air superiority, armored support, better equipment and better training on your side and are facing dumbass battle droids whose intelligence is questionable.

Well, given how „smart“ droids were, and that some clones had rifles capable of destroying droidekas, 5:1 seems fine to me.

Except that "100 to one" is a common figure of speech that isn't always literal; in fact, it rarely is. For example, Han Solo in a book said that these new Mandalorian starfighters could go through supernovas. Do you want me to use that figure of speech against you?

1) True.
2) EU is not canon. And even if it is... do you know how fast desity of gasses in supernova falls?

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but a fusion reactor will not "blow up" in any chain reaction if a bomb were to blow it up. Star Wars only uses hypermatter for things such as star destroyers and other space ships, but in buildings they typically use fusion reactors; although not necessarily any fusion that we know of, and there's no evidence that said fusion reactor would be like a lighted bomb.

There is no evidence of hypermatter in canon, and ANH novelization has quote about DSI being fusion-powered. RotS novelization tells us that SW spaceships (among other things) are fusion-powered. Plus, fusion reactor may or may not blow up... depending on what you use as fuel. Diesel, for example. - http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWimpower.html

Fair enough, but how does that negatively affect Star Wars in this debate, if at all? What's your point? Are you admitting that Star Wars ships can destroy Star Trek ground installations with even near misses?

Beacouse, in ALL ground combat examples from SW canon to date, we never hear about or see weapons cause earthquakes.

Because channeling all their power to their main guns would leave them extremely exposed to return fire and would reduce their mobility and other important things. Power isn't unlimited.

And why they would have that option at all, then?

*sigh* Not this whole "omg the Star Wars galaxy is 'modest sized' ha" thing again. The Star Wars essential atlas; or was it the new essential atlas? something like that, states that the Star Wars galaxy is 120,000 LYs across.

Non canon (again) *sigh*

http://picard578.blogspot.com/2010/11/s ... -size.html

If you want me to be evil, there is scene from Jedi Archives in AotC which puts SW galaxy size at 40 light years in diameter.

Uh, I DID. Wookieepedia, and Wookiepedia also cites it.

Wookiepedia is one of Saxonities' lairs. They refuse any analysis of canon, beacouse „everything must be from reliable published sources“. ICS is published source, but it is in no way reliable. Unless you are Rabid Warsie.

Which proves the point that the CIS was not ready for full scale war, since they had no counter to many of the weaponry that the Republic had.

Such as?

G canon > those sources, given that G canon shows hyperdrive speeds in the tens of millions of C.

Where and when? And you can drop that „G“. G and T canon are basically only things that are canon.

Actually, one of the G canon novels mentions 1 million star systems, so G canon actually proves my point.

„1 million star systems in Empire.“ It does not show if these are inhabited ones. Plus, in prequels we hear about 10 000 systems seceding from Republic as being big deal, and my analysis of AotC library scene shows us 40 light years diameter. When I tried to calculate size of SW galaxy from number of systems, I got few hundred light years high end.

They completed the Death Star 2 to 60% completion in 6 months. This is an astronomically large display of industrial might. Do you understand how large of a feat this is? A 900 km battle station constructed to 60% completion in 6 months is a feat beyond anything that the Federation can construct.

No, it is 160 kilometers in diameter. And where is it stated that construction did not begin earlier? And we have 4 years between ANH and RotJ, not 6 months.

What fusion reactors? We don't see any fusion reactors in the Death Star, not in G canon, which you claim overrides the idea of hypermatter, even though G canon does not contradict hypermatter. Thus, hypermatter is canon.

Unfortunately, it does. G canon RotS novel states that starships and most other SW technology are fusion-powered.

Star Wars does occasionally use titanium alloy hulls, especially for starfighters. However, said alloys are obviously far stronger than any alloys that we have today.

Obviously how?

Which does not make it any easier for Death Star to not collapse on itself, which it clearly didn't.

Oh, but it does. It means that Death Star itself is producing less gravity (since its own gravity will be only thing „urging“ it to collapse on itself).

Because such a population boom would have been mentioned and yet we see no such evidence of a 1000 to 1 million leap in planets.

True.

Which the Yuuzhang Vong war proved. The fact that Star Wars took over 300 trillion casualties and yet was still able to function shows its clearly massive scale compared to Star Trek.

Yuuzhan Vong war „proves“ nothing. It proves that EU writers believe SW galaxy to have 50 000 Earth-equivalent planets, not that it really has that number of planets in canon.

Why is it that Trekkies only let the Empire on the Star Wars side, and yet allow a bunch of various powers on their side, including the borg?

Yeah, Rebel Alliance and bunch of backwater systems are really going to count in all-out war.

Except that we clearly see the weapons being fired and HITTING cities, causing kiloton level explosions. A common trekkie counterargument would be to claim that the shields lessoned the damage, except that ST shields don't seem to "lesson" the damage of weapons, but instead stop them until the shields go down.

You have just proven you never watched Star Trek. Yes, Star Trek shield does stop most of damage, but there is still „bleedthrought“ damage, which means that out of, say, 200 megatons, several tons to several kilotons are going to pass throught and hit ship.

With massive fleets and powerful armies far more powerful than any Federation fleet?

Prove it.

More than that; hyperdrives can go tens of millions of C, as shown when Obi Wan went to Kamino, or the numerous examples of ships moving across the galaxy in a matter of hours.

And how large SW galaxy is in canon according to you?

What part of the fact that Star Wars ships can cross the galaxy in hours don't you understand? 100s of C could not accomplish that; tens of millions of C would, thus proof that Star Wars ships are astronomically fast.

Unless SW galaxy is few hundred years wide.

The outer rims might have been perhaps the biggest black market, but in terms of economic might the core worlds were obviously larger.


What you still don't seem to understand is that KAMINO WASN'T EVEN KNOWN TO MOST OF THE GALAXY! Hence why Obi Wan had to FIND Kamino first. To suggest that Obi Wan used a hyperlane to get there when Kamino was hardly known to anybody is a little ridiculous.

Or was simply a backwater system deleted which was deleted from charts when clone army program started.

Which is assuming that the UFP could find said hyperlanes somehow, have enough competence to mine them, have enough mines and ships to mine them, act fast enough to mine them and that said mines would do any more than cause minor damage to Star Wars ships. In fact, given that Star Wars ships in hyperdrive move astronomically fast, the mines might not even have fast enough reaction times to detonate; mines don't detonate easily, and a Star Wars ship going over a space mine field for less than a nanosecond isn't likely to trip it.

Plus only time we see mines used in Star Trek is against sublight ships.

Why not, given that Star Wars ships are orders of magnitude faster than any opponent the Federation has ever faced?

Except maybe Borg.

Or it could simply be withstanding the mine detonations, which would be unlikely to damage shielded star destroyers, or simply moving so fast that the mine fields would not have time to detonate, and said detonations would actually release energy SLOWER than the Star Wars ships are moving.

Shields of ISD are 1 gigaton maximum, according to my old calculations.

Ever heard of deterrence? Apparently, the Federation is too stupid to understand that basic theory.

Beacouse basic theory is wrong, as shown throught history.

Then how would the borg produce ships? Do they magically appear out of nowhere?

No, but they can assimilate ships. Just imagine Emperor freaking out at sight of assimilated Death Star coming out of hyperspace and transmitting „You will be assimilated, resistance is futile“ message.

So you're making the unsupported claim that the UFP has indeed been time travel attacking the borg, but we just don't hear of it, even though the borg are still around?

Actually, „time police“ is there to prevent tampering with timeline, beacouse it can have unpredicted consequences.

Or maybe the borg are simply utter morons.

So entire Imperial military are utter morons too? I mean, to get beaten by 2 old cruisers and bunch of 3 foot high teddy bears...

Then why don't the borg send 2 cubes instead of 1 to attack it? Oh yeah, because the borg are morons.

Or it is too complicated for them to send more than one cube at time so far away for some reason?

Contradiction; you claim that they have a special interest in the UFP, but then claim that they have a "mild" interest in the UFP. Warp strafing could have destroyed critical Earth defense systems and infrastructure, and possibly damage the Federation fleet, but the borg are obviously too stupid to try that.

Unless warp strafing is not practical. Plus Earth has planetary shields.

By that logic, your supposed contradictions from TCW are merely based off of the fact that the show is made for children that are too young to care about technical calculations, and that the creators of the shows themselves probably don't know about Star Wars ship calculations. Unlike your OOU explanation, this is actually a pretty valid explanation, given that it's basically a cartoon with other examples of ridiculousness, such as Ahsoka Tano defeating 3 magnaguards and holding off Grevious, and that the creators of the show actually admitted that the show is designed to appeal to a younger audience and is therefore exaggerated.

True. That is why I simply ignore it when it comes to firepower calculations. But G canon does not give anything in gigatons, except superlaser and Executor's shields (maybe).

Star Wars troopers have armor, NBC protection, weapons that actually have trigger guards, grenades, mortar, artillery support, HUDs, advanced communications systems, tanks, etc. Federation redshirts lack these in any consistent manner. Instead, they have phasers that don't have trigger guards and red pajamas.

„Nor the battle to the Strong“ and „Siege of AR-558“. Both garrisons are undermanned, worn down and underequipped but it actually shows that Federation troops do have body armor. In TOS we have mortar capable of firing nuclear-scale-firepower shells. „Voyager“, „Star Trek First Contact“, „Star Trek Nemesis“ and „Star Trek Insurrection“ show assault rifles (with trigger guard) and „Insurrection“ shows some kind of launcher, probably made to deactivate eemy weapons. There is mention of Klingons and Cardassians having some kind of APC. But we never saw any large Federation army, and that is the problem in this discussion. Also, Federation did not survive 300 years by being incompetent.

[Praeothmin]

Fair enough, but how does that negatively affect Star Wars in this debate, if at all? What's your point? Are you admitting that Star Wars ships can destroy Star Trek ground installations with even near misses?

No, he’s saying that if the Republic truly had GT firepower, in the second battle of Geonosis, when they wanted to destroy the Droid foudry, they would have simply fired those GT weapons around the shield, crumbled the ground under it through sheer firepower.
But they didn’t, because they couldn’t, because they don’t have the firepower the ICS says they have…

*sigh* Not this whole "omg the Star Wars galaxy is 'modest sized' ha" thing again. The Star Wars essential atlas; or was it the new essential atlas? something like that, states that the Star Wars galaxy is 120,000 LYs across.

Which is superceded by higher Canon, which states the SW Galaxy IS a modest-sized one, and we have two distance figures which, according to the very map you are talking about, puts the SW Galaxy far, far below the 120 000 LY mark…

Double standard, not only is the 10,000 LY figure for the Star Wars galaxy BS, but the UFP also only inhabits a very small portion of its 8,000 LY territory.

Yes, from you.
You wanted proof in the higher Canon of contradictions in the ICS, yet when we provide them, you ignore them.
Same thing with the size of the Galaxy.
If you don’t believe in the figures we provide, then refute them using the same level of Canon.
As WILGA said, the very book written by George Lucas says the SW Galaxy is modest-sized. Word from God himself.
Can you refute this?

Evidence?

Which has been provided many, many times, over and over, which you keep ignoring because they go against your illusions…

G canon > those sources, given that G canon shows hyperdrive speeds in the tens of millions of C.

Evidence, or concede… Where are your calculations proving this?
See how easy it is to use against you?
You keep asking for proof while never, ever providing any…

Those are not exactly thick staffs. Again, iirc bending a thin enough staff is possible even if it's made out of high grade steel, simply because it's super thin.

And we’d need a very, very thin staff indeed if Durasteel was that strong, and the table Daala smashed would have been just as thin…

In comparison, the Federation engages ships at almost literally spitting distance, mix up "joules" and "watts", and on the ground charge into battle with pajamas and no combined arms tactics.

And you still haven’t shown any proof that SW space battle ranges are greater, while we have examples like “The Wounded” showing ST battles at distances over 200 000 km…
As for land tactics, you think the “advance in a line running at the enemy and shoot” is a great tactic?
Wow!
I wouldn’t want to be in your squad…

Except that you haven't provided any contradiction from G canon, and thus your "it's contradicted by G canon!" claim is unsupported.

Except you failed to provide evidence that it did not contradict G-Canon and that Lucky is wrong…

More than that; hyperdrives can go tens of millions of C, as shown when Obi Wan went to Kamino, or the numerous examples of ships moving across the galaxy in a matter of hours

When have we seen that?
Where are your calculations on Obi-Wan’s trip, about the distance and the travel time?
When have we seen ships move across the Galaxy in hours?
Provide examples and calculations, or concede…

To suggest that Obi Wan used a hyperlane to get there when Kamino was hardly known to anybody is a little ridiculous.

Except all the maps show Kamino relatively close to Tatooine, which has a major Hyperspace lane next to it.
So once Obi-Won found the planet, he could have gone through the Tatooine Hyper-lane, and then “rough it up” to Kamino.
I agree though, that even in a 10 000 LY SW Galaxy, that trip is probably hundreds of thousands of c, but not tens of millions…

Except that the Enterprise was barely able to escape what was a weaker than usual black hole, and needed a plot device to survive it.

And when did any SW ship even survive a black hole, except for maybe the sun crusher?

your supposed contradictions from TCW are merely based off of the fact that the show is made for children that are too young to care about technical calculations, and that the creators of the shows themselves probably don't know about Star Wars ship calculations.

And the ICS is a children’s illustrated book, but the main difference between the two?
George Lucas is a producer on the show, and he’s involved in the story-making, coming with ideas of what to put in the shows, and what not to put.
And why don’t you show us where TCW differs from what we see in RotS?

And why don’t you ever address my points?

Is it because you cannot refute them using evidence from G-Canon?

[Mike DiCenso]

Except that the Enterprise was barely able to escape what was a weaker than usual black hole, and needed a plot device to survive it.

Please provide the episode name and the circumstances that made the black hole "weaker than usual". Nothing in any episode involving any of the ships named Enterprise, nor even with Voyager have them escaping a weaker than usual black hole. So at this point I have to call you out and claim that you are just making this up out of whole cloth since you were unable or unwilling to address the earlier examples I provided of ST ships surviving close to neutron stars, pulsars, and black holes.
-Mike

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Only guns we see in Invisible Hand's inventoty are these guns:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_10H8_Gaw0N0/T ... nports.jpg

You can see positioning of guns and shot fired by one of these guns in this screenshot:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_10H8_Gaw0N0/T ... nports.jpg

As you can see, thes guns
1) do not have mechanism for turning barrel left or right
2) do not have mechanism to elevate barrel (watch movie - what appears to be barrel elevating mechanism is just reloading mechanism)
3) are largest guns visible (I do not remember any other guns having ports like that)
4) are used against capital ships

It isn't that hard to figure out that guns that shoot SHELLS are obviously not turbolasers, which seem to use some sort of plasma.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Flak_gun

Area of effect, maybe? Fact that one more powerful shot might kill way more men + destroy some vehicles? Or what about causing slide?

Which would be better than multiple low powered shots how?

Several shots that depleted power packs of weapon were sub-gigajoule.

Because obviously Boba would want to fire a full powered shot from the less powerful blaster cannons; not the laser cannons, which were mainly for starfighter combat, when both Obi Wan and Jango Fett were within a very close distance to each other.

Well, given how „smart“ droids were, and that some clones had rifles capable of destroying droidekas, 5:1 seems fine to me.

Mmhmm

1) True.
2) EU is not canon. And even if it is... do you know how fast desity of gasses in supernova falls?

1. Then what's with the argument?
2. EU is indeed C canon, and Han Solo claimed that they could fly THROUGH novas, which would also imply a speed fast enough to cross such a large distance within a reasonable distance of time. Obviously this is hyperbole, which proves the falsity of trying to use hyperboles as evidence.

There is no evidence of hypermatter in canon, and ANH novelization has quote about DSI being fusion-powered. RotS novelization tells us that SW spaceships (among other things) are fusion-powered. Plus, fusion reactor may or may not blow up... depending on what you use as fuel. Diesel, for example. - http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWimpower.html

1. EU is C canon.
2. The ROTS novelization does not tell us that Star Wars vessels are fusion powered, regardless of how much you try to spin doctor it.
3. Some smaller Star Wars things use fusion, although not necessarily nuclear fusion, some sources suggest that they somehow fuse heavy metals. The Death Star would be impossible to make using nuclear fusion.

Beacouse, in ALL ground combat examples from SW canon to date, we never hear about or see weapons cause earthquakes.

Nor do we see or hear about full powered turbolasers hitting an unshielded planet and witnessing its direct aftereffects, so your point is moot.

And why they would have that option at all, then?

Strawman. I didn't claim that Star Wars ships would divert all their power to their main guns.

Non canon (again) *sigh*

http://picard578.blogspot.com/2010/11/s ... -size.html

If you want me to be evil, there is scene from Jedi Archives in AotC which puts SW galaxy size at 40 light years in diameter.

If you want to post evidence from your blog, actually post it directly.

Wookiepedia is one of Saxonities' lairs. They refuse any analysis of canon, beacouse „everything must be from reliable published sources“. ICS is published source, but it is in no way reliable. Unless you are Rabid Warsie.

Ah, so your side is to use wookieepdia while preventing me from doing so?

Such as?

SPHATs, LAATs, star destroyers, AT-TEs, etc.

Where and when? And you can drop that „G“. G and T canon are basically only things that are canon.

Have you even watched the Star Wars movies? Star Wars ships are witnessed traveling across the galaxy in ridiculously fast speeds. This includes traveling across a large portion of the galaxy in a matter of hours.

„1 million star systems in Empire.“ It does not show if these are inhabited ones. Plus, in prequels we hear about 10 000 systems seceding from Republic as being big deal, and my analysis of AotC library scene shows us 40 light years diameter. When I tried to calculate size of SW galaxy from number of systems, I got few hundred light years high end.

1. 10,000 systems seceding would indeed be a big deal in a million system republic. A single city seceding from the USA would be a big deal.
2. You do realize that the smallest galaxy ever discovered by Science is about 600 light years across right, right?

No, it is 160 kilometers in diameter. And where is it stated that construction did not begin earlier? And we have 4 years between ANH and RotJ, not 6 months.

The Death Star 1 was around that size, but the second was 900 km in diameter.

Unfortunately, it does. G canon RotS novel states that starships and most other SW technology are fusion-powered.

THE EU IS CANON! What part of this don't you understand? Do you not also understand that the feats performed by Star Wars ships are impossible to do practically with nuclear fusion? You do realize that the Death Star with a fusion reactor the mass of Earth would still not be able to destroy a planet, right? It's clearly hypermatter, because fusion is not powerful enough to generate such destructive power.

Obviously how?

???

Sorry, don't have time to respond to the rest right now.

Oh, but it does. It means that Death Star itself is producing less gravity (since its own gravity will be only thing „urging“ it to collapse on itself).

Because such a population boom would have been mentioned and yet we see no such evidence of a 1000 to 1 million leap in planets.

True.

Which the Yuuzhang Vong war proved. The fact that Star Wars took over 300 trillion casualties and yet was still able to function shows its clearly massive scale compared to Star Trek.

Yuuzhan Vong war „proves“ nothing. It proves that EU writers believe SW galaxy to have 50 000 Earth-equivalent planets, not that it really has that number of planets in canon.

Why is it that Trekkies only let the Empire on the Star Wars side, and yet allow a bunch of various powers on their side, including the borg?

Yeah, Rebel Alliance and bunch of backwater systems are really going to count in all-out war.

Except that we clearly see the weapons being fired and HITTING cities, causing kiloton level explosions. A common trekkie counterargument would be to claim that the shields lessoned the damage, except that ST shields don't seem to "lesson" the damage of weapons, but instead stop them until the shields go down.

You have just proven you never watched Star Trek. Yes, Star Trek shield does stop most of damage, but there is still „bleedthrought“ damage, which means that out of, say, 200 megatons, several tons to several kilotons are going to pass throught and hit ship.

With massive fleets and powerful armies far more powerful than any Federation fleet?

Prove it.

More than that; hyperdrives can go tens of millions of C, as shown when Obi Wan went to Kamino, or the numerous examples of ships moving across the galaxy in a matter of hours.

And how large SW galaxy is in canon according to you?

What part of the fact that Star Wars ships can cross the galaxy in hours don't you understand? 100s of C could not accomplish that; tens of millions of C would, thus proof that Star Wars ships are astronomically fast.

Unless SW galaxy is few hundred years wide.

The outer rims might have been perhaps the biggest black market, but in terms of economic might the core worlds were obviously larger.


What you still don't seem to understand is that KAMINO WASN'T EVEN KNOWN TO MOST OF THE GALAXY! Hence why Obi Wan had to FIND Kamino first. To suggest that Obi Wan used a hyperlane to get there when Kamino was hardly known to anybody is a little ridiculous.

Or was simply a backwater system deleted which was deleted from charts when clone army program started.

Which is assuming that the UFP could find said hyperlanes somehow, have enough competence to mine them, have enough mines and ships to mine them, act fast enough to mine them and that said mines would do any more than cause minor damage to Star Wars ships. In fact, given that Star Wars ships in hyperdrive move astronomically fast, the mines might not even have fast enough reaction times to detonate; mines don't detonate easily, and a Star Wars ship going over a space mine field for less than a nanosecond isn't likely to trip it.

Plus only time we see mines used in Star Trek is against sublight ships.

Why not, given that Star Wars ships are orders of magnitude faster than any opponent the Federation has ever faced?

Except maybe Borg.

Or it could simply be withstanding the mine detonations, which would be unlikely to damage shielded star destroyers, or simply moving so fast that the mine fields would not have time to detonate, and said detonations would actually release energy SLOWER than the Star Wars ships are moving.

Shields of ISD are 1 gigaton maximum, according to my old calculations.

Ever heard of deterrence? Apparently, the Federation is too stupid to understand that basic theory.

Beacouse basic theory is wrong, as shown throught history.

Then how would the borg produce ships? Do they magically appear out of nowhere?

No, but they can assimilate ships. Just imagine Emperor freaking out at sight of assimilated Death Star coming out of hyperspace and transmitting „You will be assimilated, resistance is futile“ message.

So you're making the unsupported claim that the UFP has indeed been time travel attacking the borg, but we just don't hear of it, even though the borg are still around?

Actually, „time police“ is there to prevent tampering with timeline, beacouse it can have unpredicted consequences.

Or maybe the borg are simply utter morons.

So entire Imperial military are utter morons too? I mean, to get beaten by 2 old cruisers and bunch of 3 foot high teddy bears...

Then why don't the borg send 2 cubes instead of 1 to attack it? Oh yeah, because the borg are morons.

Or it is too complicated for them to send more than one cube at time so far away for some reason?

Contradiction; you claim that they have a special interest in the UFP, but then claim that they have a "mild" interest in the UFP. Warp strafing could have destroyed critical Earth defense systems and infrastructure, and possibly damage the Federation fleet, but the borg are obviously too stupid to try that.

Unless warp strafing is not practical. Plus Earth has planetary shields.

By that logic, your supposed contradictions from TCW are merely based off of the fact that the show is made for children that are too young to care about technical calculations, and that the creators of the shows themselves probably don't know about Star Wars ship calculations. Unlike your OOU explanation, this is actually a pretty valid explanation, given that it's basically a cartoon with other examples of ridiculousness, such as Ahsoka Tano defeating 3 magnaguards and holding off Grevious, and that the creators of the show actually admitted that the show is designed to appeal to a younger audience and is therefore exaggerated.

True. That is why I simply ignore it when it comes to firepower calculations. But G canon does not give anything in gigatons, except superlaser and Executor's shields (maybe).

Star Wars troopers have armor, NBC protection, weapons that actually have trigger guards, grenades, mortar, artillery support, HUDs, advanced communications systems, tanks, etc. Federation redshirts lack these in any consistent manner. Instead, they have phasers that don't have trigger guards and red pajamas.

„Nor the battle to the Strong“ and „Siege of AR-558“. Both garrisons are undermanned, worn down and underequipped but it actually shows that Federation troops do have body armor. In TOS we have mortar capable of firing nuclear-scale-firepower shells. „Voyager“, „Star Trek First Contact“, „Star Trek Nemesis“ and „Star Trek Insurrection“ show assault rifles (with trigger guard) and „Insurrection“ shows some kind of launcher, probably made to deactivate eemy weapons. There is mention of Klingons and Cardassians having some kind of APC. But we never saw any large Federation army, and that is the problem in this discussion. Also, Federation did not survive 300 years by being incompetent.

[Praeothmin]

How about you address some of my posts? :)

[Who is like God arbour]

Only guns we see in Invisible Hand's inventoty are these guns:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_10H8_Gaw0N0/T ... nports.jpg

You can see positioning of guns and shot fired by one of these guns in this screenshot:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_10H8_Gaw0N0/T ... nports.jpg

As you can see, thes guns
1) do not have mechanism for turning barrel left or right
2) do not have mechanism to elevate barrel (watch movie - what appears to be barrel elevating mechanism is just reloading mechanism)
3) are largest guns visible (I do not remember any other guns having ports like that)
4) are used against capital ships

It isn't that hard to figure out that guns that shoot SHELLS are obviously not turbolasers, which seem to use some sort of plasma.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Flak_gun

1. Wookipedia is not canon.
   
   Have you noticed that they are giving as references only four sources? But as far as I know, none of these sources states that the weapons in question are only flak guns.
   
   That seems to be the attempt of a Star Wars fan to make these weapons appear insignificant to be able to claim that there are still more impressive weapons.
   
   Also the description of these weapons is wrong. The article claims that these weapons are shooting shells although we have seen that these weapons are ejecting the shells at the backside after firing. Therefore these weapons can have shot only with what was inside these shells, e.g. gas that was heated to plasma inside the weapon.
   
   Or do you want to claim that these shells are like firearms cartridges with a projectile at the top that is propelled by expanding powder in the shell?
   
   Because, if you were to claim this, you would have to explain why we are seeing these weapons firing what looks like energy beams and not projectiles.
   
   Furthermore, as Picard noted, it is impossible to target anything with these fixed weapons. All you can do is shoot straight in one direction. That contraticts the notion that these weapons are flak guns which have to be the opposite.
2. Please show any other weapons on or in the Invisible Hand.
   
   But not on any pictures in any books.
   
   Show them on screen shots from the movie. There were a few nice close-up views. If there are any other weapons emplacements, you should be able to see them and show them to me.
   
   If the weapons in the gallery are only flak guns, then the Invisible Hand should have bigger, more easily seen weapons too. An it should have used them to fire on enemy ships.
   
   But I can only remember to have seen these weapons in RotS on or in the Invisible Hand.

[Picard]

It isn't that hard to figure out that guns that shoot SHELLS are obviously not turbolasers, which seem to use some sort of plasma.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Flak_gun

And why it fired turbolaser bolts, then?
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_10H8_Gaw0N0/T ... nports.jpg
In other words, either turbolasers regularly use shells, or they don't use shells at all. Plus, these guns are unable to elevate barell, or shoot left/right. So medium TL are only thing which remains.

Which would be better than multiple low powered shots how?

Good luck with destroying MBT by using 9 milimeter handgun.

Because obviously Boba would want to fire a full powered shot from the less powerful blaster cannons; not the laser cannons, which were mainly for starfighter combat, when both Obi Wan and Jango Fett were within a very close distance to each other.

Laser canons which barely fragmented several-meters-wide asteroids. Sub-kiloton, either way.

2. EU is indeed C canon, and Han Solo claimed that they could fly THROUGH novas, which would also imply a speed fast enough to cross such a large distance within a reasonable distance of time. Obviously this is hyperbole, which proves the falsity of trying to use hyperboles as evidence.

EU is canon only according to EU and lincensing folks. Not according to Lucas.

1. EU is C canon.
2. The ROTS novelization does not tell us that Star Wars vessels are fusion powered, regardless of how much you try to spin doctor it.
3. Some smaller Star Wars things use fusion, although not necessarily nuclear fusion, some sources suggest that they somehow fuse heavy metals. The Death Star would be impossible to make using nuclear fusion.

1. C canon = N canon
2. It does.
3. RotS novelization states that fusion powers everything, including large starships. And fusing heavy metals is just not economical.

Nor do we see or hear about full powered turbolasers hitting an unshielded planet and witnessing its direct aftereffects, so your point is moot.

Except for RotS novelization description, which gives us 1.5 megaton heavy turbolasers.

Strawman. I didn't claim that Star Wars ships would divert all their power to their main guns.

They won't last more than few seconds either way.

If you want to post evidence from your blog, actually post it directly.

Beacouse, what? You are too lazy to click on link? Do you know how long these posts are going to be if I start posting parts of my blog and website I'm working on?

Ah, so your side is to use wookieepdia while preventing me from doing so?

Are you so damn confused by yourself? I never used Wookiepedia.

SPHATs, LAATs, star destroyers, AT-TEs, etc.

Oh, but they did counter these very effectively. If you watched battle of Geonosis, SPHAT's did not take losses but only ever engaged unarmed core ships, LAATs could be effectively countered by droid fighters, as for Star Destroyers- CIS already had Nemoidian battleships back at that battle, and later we see some Star Destroyer desgns of their own during RotS, and several AT-Tes were taken out by droid version of Katjusa.

Have you even watched the Star Wars movies? Star Wars ships are witnessed traveling across the galaxy in ridiculously fast speeds. This includes traveling across a large portion of the galaxy in a matter of hours.

Yes, I did. And given that movies do not show how large SW galaxy is, aside from AotC library scene that can scale galaxy from dozen to few thousands light years wide, it is moot.

1. 10,000 systems seceding would indeed be a big deal in a million system republic. A single city seceding from the USA would be a big deal.
2. You do realize that the smallest galaxy ever discovered by Science is about 600 light years across right, right?

Discovered, which does not mean there are no smaller galaxies.

The Death Star 1 was around that size, but the second was 900 km in diameter.

Only in EU. But in canon, DSI was 120 km in diameter, and DSII was 160 km in diameter.

THE EU IS CANON! What part of this don't you understand? Do you not also understand that the feats performed by Star Wars ships are impossible to do practically with nuclear fusion? You do realize that the Death Star with a fusion reactor the mass of Earth would still not be able to destroy a planet, right? It's clearly hypermatter, because fusion is not powerful enough to generate such destructive power.

Lucas says it isn't. And what feats? In canon, we have heavy TL bolts capable of 1.5 megaton shots.

[Praeothmin]

Picard, the EU is also part of SW, only lower Canon.
The DS II being 160km is from the movie scalings, or Higher Canon...