Prototype Death Star?

[Lucky]

According to the EU there was a prototype Death Star created before they made the first Death Star seen in episode 4, but at the end of episode 3 they seem to have just started building the first Death Star.

Am I correct in thinking that the Death Star at the end of episode 3 was the Death Star seen in episode 4?

If the Death Star seen in episode 3 is the same one as seen in Episode 4, what does that mean for stories that involve the prototype death star in some way?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtJpg4d93-w

[Mr. Oragahn]

According to the EU there was a prototype Death Star created before they made the first Death Star seen in episode 4, but at the end of episode 3 they seem to have just started building the first Death Star.

Am I correct in thinking that the Death Star at the end of episode 3 was the Death Star seen in episode 4?

If the Death Star seen in episode 3 is the same one as seen in Episode 4, what does that mean for stories that involve the prototype death star in some way?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtJpg4d93-w

Didn't GL acknowledge the CGI fuck up and say it was a prototype? Off mic, of course?

[Mike DiCenso]

No, in the commentary track for RoTS, George Lucas specifically states that the Death Star seen under construction at the end of the movie is the Death Star seen in ANH. It is not a prototype, though Saxton and his followers have been trying to argue it is.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

Mkay.
If that's so, I wonder if Lucas is ever going to take a look at the problem of the Empire taking that long to make the first Death Star, and then doing a second, entirely different and bigger one in much less time.
A DSII, being nearly twice as big as the DSI (volume x2), and taking 4 years to build instead of 20 (time x5), would correspond to an increase of the industrial power by 10.

[Mike DiCenso]

In commentary track, Lucas half-jokingly said that the DS1 took so long to build because of union labor issues. I don't think he cares.

Also the second Death Star's construction, according the RoTJ novelization on page 1, occured "many years" after the destruction of the first one. So the four year interval you cite seems a bit questionable. And remember, the DS2 was not structurally finished (approximately 60% complete, if even that), merely made operational enough to fire it's superlaser at the Rebel capital ships.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

That's a new way to understand "many" isn't it? Because there's certainly not many years between ANH and ROTJ. Plus a completion of 60% means that less than half of the damn thing needed to be assembled. If it took one year to build the DSII as it was in ROTJ, one year later it would have already been in service and busting crap around.
There's an interesting observation to make though, in that after the first DSI, there wasn't much point keeping all those things secret. The secrecy, as per the EU, seems to be one of the factors that made the DS construction be slow, since they were bothering hiding the things' budget and only a few such as Tarkin knew about it, outside of the system where it was built. This would be likely supported by the EU's attempt at making canonical the two small DSs in construction above Coruscant.

[Mike DiCenso]

Again, if you go simply by the number of years that went by in real life from the release of ANH in 1977 to RoTJ which was released in 1983, then 6 years might qualify is "many". If went by how much the actors actually aged from the start of filming in 1975, then 7-8 years went by. However you look at it, 4 years is way too short a span of time. Five years, minimum.

But if you really need any other explanation, just remember that from a GL standpoint, the first Death Star was the prototype, nothing like it had been built before, and there were no other prototypes or pre-Alderaan testing of the superlaser at a place called Despayre. Vader's thoughts in the ANH novelization confirm this as he is looking at the tridimensional display of the Empire and comtemplating Alderaan's destruction in the grand scheme of things.

Prototypes tend to take longer to build then production models, which benefit from the experiance and the establishment of the manufacturing infrastructure created for the prototype.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

Again, if you go simply by the number of years that went by in real life from the release of ANH in 1977 to RoTJ which was released in 1983, then 6 years might qualify is "many". If went by how much the actors actually aged from the start of filming in 1975, then 7-8 years went by. However you look at it, 4 years is way too short a span of time. Five years, minimum.

But if you really need any other explanation, just remember that from a GL standpoint, the first Death Star was the prototype, nothing like it had been built before, and there were no other prototypes or pre-Alderaan testing the superlaser at a place called Despayre. Vader's thoughts in the ANH novelization confirm this as he is looking at the tridimensional display of the Empire and comtemplating Alderaan's destruction in the grand scheme of things.

Prototypes tend to take longer to build then production models, which benefit from the experiance and the establishment of the manufacturing infrastructure created for the prototype.
-Mike

That would be all nice and fine if the DSII was the production model of the prototype, but it is just not the case at all.
For all intents and purposes, it's a completely different model. It's been severely reworked, and you don't just inflate the size of a thing like that without going through all the necessary drawing board stages. Everything will be new again, bigger, and they can't know if it will work just my scaling the thing up. It's just not the way things work.

It would be faster to pretend that the DSII was officially begun that many years after the destruction of the first, because it initially wasn't being built as a battle station.
Heck, I always wondered if the DSII's superlaser would actually be that good, or even as good as the first DSI's superlaser. I mean if you're going to enlarge the main firing assembly rather randomly, and you're on tight schedule, the quality of the whole thing will be dramatically subpar.
It's even possible that by construction, we might need to understand assembly.
Perhaps they had begun building another superlaser before the first Death Star was completed, and initially planned to plant it on some planet, as part of some array, perhaps Coruscant, to defend it against the possible incoming of other superlaser-equipped enemy ships.
That's even more important since the DSI's plans had been stolen, which may have contained enough information to understand how the thing worked.

[Who is like God arbour]

Mkay.
If that's so, I wonder if Lucas is ever going to take a look at the problem of the Empire taking that long to make the first Death Star, and then doing a second, entirely different and bigger one in much less time.
A DSII, being nearly twice as big as the DSI (volume x2), and taking 4 years to build instead of 20 (time x5), would correspond to an increase of the industrial power by 10.

There is a thread where it was speculated that the second Death Star was build parallel to the first Death Star.

• • • • Many cite the construction of the second Death Star as a record. And it is. It's a secret project, and it's achieved within, what? two to three years approximatively. [...]

        Does the movie really confirm that?
        
        As far as I can remember, it was not said, when the construction on the second Death Star has begun or how much time they have needed.
        
        To me, it seems plausible to assume, that - because the Emperor wanted more than only one single Death Star - they have begun to build another Death Star while still building the first Death Star.
        
        That the Emperor wanted more than only one single Death Star is very propably, especialy in an Empire that allegedly is stretched across a whole galaxy. One single Death Star would be insignificant.

        • After many long years of secretive construction this station has become the decisive force in this part of the universe. Events in this region of the galaxy will no longer be determined by fate, by decree, or by any other agency. They will be decided by this station!”

          Interestingly, the first use of the most powerful destructive machine ever constructed had seemingly had no influence at all on that map, which in itself represented only a tiny fraction of this section of one modest-sized galaxy.

        That they would have build another Death Star while still building the first Death Star is not implausible.
        
        Real life shows, that often, when a new ship class is build, several ships are build simultaneously and that they don't wait to finish a prototype.

        • (And the EU state, that there was a prototype befor the first Death Star was build. Insofar it would be more plausible than ever that they could have started to build the second Death Star long before they have finished the first Death Star.)

        As far as I can remember, it was not said, when the construction on the second Death Star has begun or how much time they have needed.
        
        To me, it seems plausible to assume, that - because the Emperor wanted more than only one single Death Star - they have begun to build another Death Star while still building the first Death Star.
        
        That the Emperor wanted more than only one single Death Star is very propably, especialy in an Empire that allegedly is stretched across a whole galaxy. One single Death Star would be insignificant.

        Err, remember the yellow letters?
        
        On the other hand, the EU had a prototype built aside. Maybe two.
        
        Who knows. Lucas said something like it was stretching it a bit, but the first one took so much time to build because of bureaucrats and other stupid things, mixed to ressources management.
        
        He also said that the second one, unfinished as it was, was of the same size as the first.

        • • • • Luke Skywalker has returned to
                his home planet of Tatooine in
                an attempt to rescue his
                friend Han Solo from the
                clutches of the vile gangster
                Jabba the Hutt.
                
                Little does Luke know that the
                GALACTIC EMPIRE has secretly
                begun construction on a new
                armored space station even
                more powerful than the first
                dreaded Death Star.
                
                When completed, this ultimate
                weapon will spell certain doom
                for the small band of rebels
                struggling to restore freedom
                to the galaxy…

        [...] the GALACTIC EMPIRE has secretly begun construction on a new armored space station [...]
        
        What does this say about the beginning of the construction?
        
        It's indisputable that they have begun to construct it. If not, there wouldn't have been a second Death Star at all.
        
        And it is indisputable that the beginning of the construction was secret. The first Death Star was secret too.
        
        And I don't think, that someone would try to argue that "the GALACTIC EMPIRE has secretly begun construction on a new armored space station even more powerful than the first dreaded Death Star " after "Luke Skywalker has returned to his home planet of Tatooine in an attempt to rescue his friend Han Solo from the clutches of the vile gangster Jabba the Hutt. "
        
        Insofar, the "yellow letters" don't answer the question, when the construction of the second Death Star has begun.
        
        

        • Look for example at the Nimitz class aircraft carriers: The first ship of that class, the USS Nimitz (CVN-68) was laid down June 22, 1968 and launched May 13, 1972 (but commissioned not until 3 May 1975). But the USS Dwight D. Eisenhower (CVN-69), the second ship of that class was laid down already August 15, 1970. At this time, the construction of the USS Nimitz (CVN-68) was still not finished for nearly two years.

        While I agree, W.I.L.G.A, that we really don't know when the second Death Star's construction began, I'm really not convinced that the Empire felt it needed a second one.
        
        Remember that the Death Star was able to travel through Hyperspace.
        I would't feel safe, knowing that such a weapon existed and was capable of wiping out my world, even if such a weapon was on the far side of the Galaxy.
        Knowing that this weapon would be able to cross that distance in a few weeks at most, I would fear that weapon very much.
        
        That being said, I reiterate that I agree that it is plausible that the second Death Star had been in construction before the second one was finished.
        We really don`t have enough info to disagree...

        I'm really not convinced that the Empire felt it needed a second one.
        
        Remember that the Death Star was able to travel through Hyperspace.
        I would't feel safe, knowing that such a weapon existed and was capable of wiping out my world, even if such a weapon was on the far side of the Galaxy.
        Knowing that this weapon would be able to cross that distance in a few weeks at most, I would fear that weapon very much.

        Understandable. But that's why I have already given the quotes:

        • After many long years of secretive construction this station has become the decisive force in this part of the universe. Events in this region of the galaxy will no longer be determined by fate, by decree, or by any other agency. They will be decided by this station!”

          Interestingly, the first use of the most powerful destructive machine ever constructed had seemingly had no influence at all on that map, which in itself represented only a tiny fraction of this section of one modest-sized galaxy.

        The range or speed of the Death Star seems to be limited. Tarkin attributes decisive force to the Death Star only in this region of the galaxy. Either the Death Star is not able to reach other regions of the galaxy or it is to slow to reach them in an acceptable time. Another Death Star could watch over another region of the galaxy.
        
        And the Death Star is a threat for each single planet. But if there would be a real rebellion in the Empire with tenthousands of planets - similar to the Separatist movement before the clone wars - a single Death Star would be overstrained. If one assumes that the Death Star would be able to destroy only one planet a day (including travel time and recharging), the Empire could be defeated long before the Death Star could destroy all the planets of such a separatist movement. And if so many planets join such a movement, the risk for each planet to get destroyed, is very small. After all, the alleged ability of the imperial fleet to destroy the surface of a planet with only one Star Destroyer in less than an hour hasn't hold off other planets from joining the rebels.
        
        You simply have to think in bigger dimensions. A whole galaxy with 200 billion habitable planets, 20 billion planets with life and 20 million planets with sentient life, the destruction of a planet each day is insignificant.

        You simply have to think in bigger dimensions. A whole galaxy with 200 billion habitable planets, 20 billion planets with life and 20 million planets with sentient life, the destruction of a planet each day is insignificant.

        Agreed... :)
        
        Although as of ANH, the Empire was only spread on 1 million worlds, more then probably including colonies, small settlements like Hoth, andof course hugely populated planets like Coruscant...

        Although as of ANH, the Empire was only spread on 1 million worlds, more then probably including colonies, small settlements like Hoth, andof course hugely populated planets like Coruscant...

        Not really. I assume that you have in mind these quotes:
        
        Page 111:

        • The tridimensional solid screen filled one wall of the vast chamber from floor to ceiling. It showed a million star systems. A tiny portion of the galaxy, but an impressive display nonetheless when exhibited in such a fashion.

        Page 163:

        • Vader stared at the motley array of stars displayed on the conference-room map while Tarkin and Admiral Motti conferred nearby. Interestingly, the first use of the most powerful destructive machine ever constructed had seemingly had no influence at all on that map, which in itself represented only a tiny fraction of this section of one modest-sized galaxy.

        
        
        But from these, we learn only that the STAR WARS Galaxy is only a modest-sized galaxy and that a tiny portion of the galaxy has only a million star systems.
        That doesn't mean, that the Empire has only a million star systems. It could be larger than the tiny fraction of the modest-sized galaxy, that was displayed.
        If that tiny fraction would be one percent of the galaxy and all other parts have similar many stars, the galaxy would have 100 million star systems. If the Empire would be 10 percent of the galaxy, it would still have 10 million star systems.
        
        But if you have another quote in mind which proves that the Empire was only spread on 1 million worlds, please remind me. I have not learned each word from Star Wars by heart.
        
        And I agree, that the Empire is smaller than many Star Wars debaters wish it to be. The numbers I have given, are the numbers from them [1]. I don't believe these absurd numbers [2].

        The RoTJ novelization unfortunately does not give a specific starting time for the DS2 constructions. However, on the very first page, it interestingly enough states that "many years" had passed since events of ANH and the first Death Star's destruction. Many pro-Wars types assume that only 2-5 years had passed, but the RoTJ novelization's use of "many years" suggest that nothing less than 5 years had gone by. Given the apparent ages of the characters, probably no more than 10 years tops had gone by, but it most certainly increases the time span between when the first DS had been destroyed, and when the second one either began construction, or had taken that long a period of time.
        
        This suggests that building up the necessary resources or other long-lead work takes a greater period of time than the pro-Wars people would like us to think it does.
        
        Given that the DS2 was only about 60% structurely complete by the time of the Battle of Endor, and then only after Vader had to come in and whip up Moff Jerjerrod and his personel into speeding up the superlaser's operational status, among other things, suggests that the second battlestation was still a good long while from being finished.
        
        As WILGA suggests, there was probably an intention to build at least two, and the EU supports the idea of several additional battlestations of the Death Star class were to be built beyond the second one, and so we might presume that a great deal of systems work and parallel construction work might have been under way before the the events of ANH to facilitate that goal.
        
        This is not so unusual in real-life, where again as WILGA has pointed out, ships (also aircraft, spacecraft, ect) are often built in a staggered manner, with the prototype vessel still being outfitted as the hull (or airframe) of the second is started.
        -Mike

This are only the in my opinion most important posts of that thread.

Also the second Death Star's construction, according the RoTJ novelization on page 1, occured "many years" after the destruction of the first one.

Can you give the exact quote?

Because the last time you said: » The RoTJ novelization unfortunately does not give a specific starting time for the DS2 constructions. «

[Picard]

Well, according to novelizations, TESB was 3 years after ANH (Luke was, according to novelization, 23 years old in TESB, giving him age of 19-20 in ANH, which fits with RotS being 20 years before ANH) and RotJ was 1 year after TESB.

[Mr. Oragahn]

While I had forgotten that the rolling script talked about the DSII being built in secret as well, I still don't abide by the semantic rape required to transform "has begun" into "had begun" a while ago.
And nowhere is the problem of the DSII being a different design addressed either.

However, by looking at a reliable definition of the verb "to construct", we can corroborate what Mike and other people have suggested.
See:

Construct

1con·struct
verb \k?n-?str?kt\
Definition of CONSTRUCT
transitive verb
1: to make or form by combining or arranging parts or elements : build; also : contrive, devise
2: to draw (a geometrical figure) with suitable instruments and under specified conditions
3: to set in logical order
— con·struct·abil·i·ty also con·struct·ibil·i·ty \-?str?k-t?-?bi-l?-t?\ noun
— con·struct·able or con·struct·ible \-?str?k-t?-b?l\ adjective
— con·struc·tor\-t?r\ noun
See construct defined for English-language learners »
Examples of CONSTRUCT

1. They plan to construct a barn behind the house.
2. The author constructs all the stories around one theme.
3. Construct a triangle that has sides of equal length.

Origin of CONSTRUCT
Latin constructus, past participle of construere, from com- + struere to build — more at structure
First Known Use: 1663

Definitions 1 and 3, and the subsequent examples given thereafter, do support the idea that elements were already present and only waited to be assembled.
There are caveats to that though. For example, when you build a house. The more original the construction is, the more work there is to do with the basic elements.

However, some things can be explained. Take the superlaser. Would it need to be different than the DSI's?
The battle station would be wider, so you'd need a longer superlaser. I suppose some parts can be lengthened. Add several rings in order to lengthen the main conduit that would drive the beam out of the battle station. Add power conduits to feed those extra rings. Had some auxiliary power cells as well.
The dish would also become larger. Then bolt the panels with a slightly different angle.
The crust is going to be wider as well. OK. Let's assume that they link each prefab block of the crust with some transition tube or even something as mundane as a ring that's higher on one side (because it has to fit into the gap between two blocks that essentially is V shaped). Say that they used several such rings, like one per 0.01° of rotation from one block to another. Well, now you can remove a few because the angle will be smaller. It's even simpler if the transition section is flexible or mobile to some extent. You don't even have to bother, it will adapt automatically. Just bolt the prefab sections and you're done.
There are some sections which will be totally new though, and I believe it could be a stretch to pretend that the construction of those exclusively new parts would not be counted as part of the construction of the DSII itself. It just doesn't work.
However, that's already much less new stuff to build. The core for example wouldn't take much time to build.
In "X-wing Alliance", one of the levels had you attack a Kuat space station which essentially was a Death Star core with very little structure around it. It was smaller though. But it's entirely possible that they may have had a bigger core and decided to use it for the 2nd Death Star.

Besides, the design of the DSI core would matter for the time needed to design the core of the DSII.
This is another problem. The OT:ICS shows a large spherical core with the bulb encased in the superstructure above the spherical chamber, and that bulb is even bigger than the chamber. It's very faithful, in a way, to the plan shown the in Dodonna's briefing. That said, the exhaust has to pass through the encased bulb.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/File:Reactors1.JPG
The Technical Journal shows a core that's spherical, but it's considerably smaller. It doesn't show the encased bulb above the spherical chamber.
On both, the spherical core is at the center of the battle station.
However it shows the flattened chamber to be located underneath the spherical chamber, and we can see the typical bulb hanging upside down.
Etc.
I mean, there's a vast amount of inconsistency. Practically each single blueprint published at some point in the EU, for the first Death Star, has shown a different internal structure.
The AOTC:ICS drawings have shown that a Trade Federation Coreship has a flattened core like we see in the heart of the second Death Star, and the Geonosians also used a superlaser to melt ore on Geonosis (Inside the World book).
And the EU tried to retcon the other Death Star as a prototype, yet it looks like the frame we see in ROTS, which Lucas says is the ANH Death Star. Amazingly enough, its construction is quite advanced.
And then we have the plans the Rebels stole, which point to another design which perhaps never came to fruition, but obviously did exist.
I'll spare you the story about the plans you had to steal in several games, so much that one had to be retconned, before the prequel movies, as the plans of a prototype, and the others plans as the plans of the real first Death Star.
I don't even know if they had done it properly, because the plans you stole as Kyle Katarn in Dark Forces did show the hologram of the Death Star that fit with the real appearance of the Death Star, not the plans of the thing shown during the briefing in Yavin IV's base.
Just to complicate matters, we saw the plans of a Great Weapon in AOTC, and they looked very close to the miscaled tactical rebel hologram in ROTJ, rearranged for the sake of clarity, obviously.

With all that mess, one thing is clear: the construction of the first Death Star was a big mess which alone can explain why it took so long to get it done.
As a corollary of this observation, it's possible that the Empire had many spare parts left to use for another station.

[Mike DiCenso]

From the "Return of the Jedi" novelization, page 1:

"The Death Star was the Empire's armored battle station, nearly twice as big as it's predecessor, which Rebel forces had destroyed so many years before ---- nearly twice as big, but more than twice as powerful. Yet it was only half complete."

So it doesn't say when the second one was started, but it does tell us that a lot of years has gone by since the destruction of the original. If the Empire could put another Death Star together as quickly as some Warsies claim, wouldn't the Emperor have ordered it done within a year of the first's destruction, making moot the Rebel's victory? Yet, according to the novelization, many years had gone by. So no, I don't buy into the 4 year estimate. It's just too low. Way too low to account for all the sources, the obvious aging of the actors, ect.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

Besides, the design of the DSI core would matter for the time needed to design the core of the DSII.
This is another problem. The OT:ICS shows a large spherical core with the bulb encased in the superstructure above the spherical chamber, and that bulb is even bigger than the chamber. It's very faithful, in a way, to the plan shown the in Dodonna's briefing. That said, the exhaust has to pass through the encased bulb.

The OT:ICS is very inaccurate now, especially since we have the blueprints for the first Death Star as seen in AoTC, which show the original DS structure is not much different in internal layout then the second one's. Even the core shafts, the shape of the reactor space, and it's proportionate size to the whole battle station are duplicated almost precisely. The OT:ICS assumed that the first DS' reactor was the same size as the second's, and accordingly made it big in the blueprints. Unfortunately, the AoTC movie says otherwise.

This in my mind is proof against the Saxtonian view that the second Death Star was 900 km, while the first was only a mere 160-200 km. The idea that the novelization and movie's opening scrawl's description of the DS2 being nearly twice as big as a statement of volume is more logical, and keeps with the idea that DS1 was 120 km or so in diameter, and DS2 160. Thus the scaling issues are dramatically reduced, though still non-trival, but far more realistic than the alternative Saxton and his followers offer us. This also allows for more realistic use of the infrastructure of the first DS to be used in making for a more speedy construction time on the second, dispite the volumetric enlargement.
-Mike

[Who is like God arbour]

While I had forgotten that the rolling script talked about the DSII being built in secret as well, I still don't abide by the semantic rape required to transform "has begun" into "had begun" a while ago.

I'm not enthused to open that can of worms again.

But the only semantic rape that is done, is done by you: » has begun « is present perfect while » had begun « is past perfect.

Present Perfect is a grammatical combination of the present tense and the perfect aspect, used to express a past event that has present consequences. It is used to say that an action happened at an unspecified time before now. The exact time is not important. The action can have happened only recently but also years or millennia ago.

The concept of "unspecified time" can be very confusing not only to English learners. It is best to associate Present Perfect with the following topics:

• • TOPIC 1: Experience
    • You can use the Present Perfect to describe your experience. It is like saying, "I have the experience of..." You can also use this tense to say that you have never had a certain experience. The Present Perfect is NOT used to describe a specific event.
      
      • Examples:
        
        • I have been to France.
          This sentence means that you have had the experience of being in France. Maybe you have been there once, or several times.
        • I have been to France three times.
          You can add the number of times at the end of the sentence.
        • I have never been to France.
          This sentence means that you have not had the experience of going to France.
        • I think I have seen that movie before.
        • He has never traveled by train.
        • Joan has studied two foreign languages.
        • A: Have you ever met him?
          B: No, I have not met him.
    TOPIC 2: Change Over Time
    • We often use the Present Perfect to talk about change that has happened over a period of time.
      
      • Examples:
        
        • You have grown since the last time I saw you.
        • The government has become more interested in arts education.
        • Japanese has become one of the most popular courses at the university since the Asian studies program was established.
        • My English has really improved since I moved to Australia.
    TOPIC 3: Accomplishments
    • We often use the Present Perfect to list the accomplishments of individuals and humanity. You cannot mention a specific time.
      
      • Examples:
        
        • Man has walked on the Moon.
        • Our son has learned how to read.
        • Doctors have cured many deadly diseases.
        • Scientists have split the atom.
    TOPIC 4: An Uncompleted Action You Are Expecting
    • We often use the Present Perfect to say that an action which we expected has not happened. Using the Present Perfect suggests that we are still waiting for the action to happen.
      
      • Examples:
        
        • James has not finished his homework yet.
        • Susan hasn't mastered Japanese, but she can communicate.
        • Bill has still not arrived.
        • The rain hasn't stopped.
    TOPIC 5: Multiple Actions at Different Times
    • We also use the Present Perfect to talk about several different actions which have occurred in the past at different times. Present Perfect suggests the process is not complete and more actions are possible.
      
      • Examples:
        
        • The army has attacked that city five times.
        • I have had four quizzes and five tests so far this semester.
        • We have had many major problems while working on this project.
        • She has talked to several specialists about her problem, but nobody knows why she is sick.

As you can see at these examples, the usage of present perfect does not indicate that something has happened only recently. It only indicates that it has happened in the past but is somehow still relevant.

Past perfect on the other side is a grammatical combination of the past tense and the perfect aspect. It is used to express a past event that had continuing relevance to a past time. It expresses the idea that something occurred before another action in the past. It can also show that something happened before a specific time in the past.

Insofar it is not maintainable any more to argue that the line » Little does Luke know that the GALACTIC EMPIRE has secretly begun construction on a new armored space station even more powerful than the first dreaded Death Star. « indicates by its usage of present perfect that the beginning of the construction of the second Death Star can only have happened four years ago and can not have happened twenty years ago.

Maybe it is better to understand after I add a little bit to the sentence: » Little does Luke know now that the GALACTIC EMPIRE has secretly begun the now still ongoing construction on a new armored space station even more powerful than the first dreaded Death Star. «




Besides that, Mike DiCenso is correct. If it were possible to build another Death Star in only a few years, the victory of the rebels over the first Death Star would have been meaningless. Knowing the industrial abilities of the Empire, they would have known that the first Death Star is exactly that: Only the first of its kind. And they would have known that, even if they could have destroyed the first Death Star, it would have been only a question of time until there is a second Death Star and a third and a fourth and so on and so on. Then they wouldn't have taken the risk to attack the first Death Star.

[Mr. Oragahn]

From the "Return of the Jedi" novelization, page 1:

"The Death Star was the Empire's armored battle station, nearly twice as big as it's predecessor, which Rebel forces had destroyed so many years before ---- nearly twice as big, but more than twice as powerful. Yet it was only half complete."

So it doesn't say when the second one was started, but it does tell us that a lot of years has gone by since the destruction of the original.

I guess four years or so is many to some.

If the Empire could put another Death Star together as quickly as some Warsies claim, wouldn't the Emperor have ordered it done within a year of the first's destruction, making moot the Rebel's victory?

Why would they claim the Emperor would want it done that fast?
I don't recall the most rabid warsies claiming such a thing. They just claim that the DSII's construction was started from scratch some time after ANH.

Yet, according to the novelization, many years had gone by. So no, I don't buy into the 4 year estimate. It's just too low. Way too low to account for all the sources, the obvious aging of the actors, ect.
-Mike

What's the problem exactly with their age?
And what's the deal with "all the sources"?
I'm not following you here.

Besides, the design of the DSI core would matter for the time needed to design the core of the DSII.
This is another problem. The OT:ICS shows a large spherical core with the bulb encased in the superstructure above the spherical chamber, and that bulb is even bigger than the chamber. It's very faithful, in a way, to the plan shown the in Dodonna's briefing. That said, the exhaust has to pass through the encased bulb.

The OT:ICS is very inaccurate now, especially since we have the blueprints for the first Death Star as seen in AoTC, which show the original DS structure is not much different in internal layout then the second one's. Even the core shafts, the shape of the reactor space, and it's proportionate size to the whole battle station are duplicated almost precisely. The OT:ICS assumed that the first DS' reactor was the same size as the second's, and accordingly made it big in the blueprints. Unfortunately, the AoTC movie says otherwise.

As I pointed out, many EU sources came with their own vision of the DSI's power plant. And ANH does tell us that some blueprint did exist that critically disagreed with the hologram seen in AOTC. Besides, the hologram in AOTC represents nothing more than a rough idea of what the station could be. It's entirely possible that at some point, it was decided to dismiss the Geonosian core design and go with another one.
The only reason the blueprint we saw in ANH was disputable was because of the position of the superweapon dish. When it comes to the trenches, there isn't much disagreement. Nor on the fact that there clearly was a vertical shaft. The lack of a visible south one can be explained by a simplification for the briefing.

This in my mind is proof against the Saxtonian view that the second Death Star was 900 km, while the first was only a mere 160-200 km.

We don't even need to get there to disprove that silly figure.
The vast majority of the visuals from ROTJ point to a size many times smaller than 900 km. Knowing that there's a visual discrepancy within the movie, they only pick the occurances of a large DSII (which are themselves inconsistent to some degree) that agree with them.
Some of them even daring using the flat scenery as proof, which I never got tired of showing alongside l33telboi, how it didn't help them at all.

The idea that the novelization and movie's opening scrawl's description of the DS2 being nearly twice as big as a statement of volume is more logical, and keeps with the idea that DS1 was 120 km or so in diameter, and DS2 160.

Or the DSI 160 km (that's the latest retcon in the novel "Death Star", it's a subtle note about a problem of unit conversion), and the DSII about 200 km wide.

While I had forgotten that the rolling script talked about the DSII being built in secret as well, I still don't abide by the semantic rape required to transform "has begun" into "had begun" a while ago.

I'm not enthused to open that can of worms again.

But the only semantic rape that is done, is done by you: » has begun « is present perfect while » had begun « is past perfect.

Seriously?
Since when people used the word begin, which comes with its own temporal implication (a change of something) and use the present perfect when people would just use the simpler preterit to described something that began to change a while ago?
Point is, the scroll would be "...the EMPIRE secretly began construction on a new armored space station...".
The acrobatics are particularly awkward for the fact that the scroll establishes a timeframe that's very fresh, wherein Luke has just recently returned to Tatooine.
Although it's absurd to engage into arguments about how this is absolute present, and thus the Death Star II's construction started almost *right now*, it's very clear that the whole scroll doesn't present events as they keep going since the last movie.

This isn't terribly problematic either because I don't buy the four years construction miracle, and I already provided a way to re-understand this, although I'm sure we'll be laughed at for doing so.
Did you know that in the EU, more precisely in the WEG books, Tarkin had given the order for transceivers all over the Empire to be cannibalized for the Death Star project?

Besides that, Mike DiCenso is correct. If it were possible to build another Death Star in only a few years, the victory of the rebels over the first Death Star would have been meaningless. Knowing the industrial abilities of the Empire, they would have known that the first Death Star is exactly that: Only the first of its kind. And they would have known that, even if they could have destroyed the first Death Star, it would have been only a question of time until there is a second Death Star and a third and a fourth and so on and so on. Then they wouldn't have taken the risk to attack the first Death Star.

Not necessarily. If the rebels can have someone build ships for them, surely they can have someone build smaller superlasers, the kind that would sill be more than enough to get through the shields of the battle station. More systems were joining the Rebel Alliance. Would have Palpatine blindly continued to build those giant balls of hurt endlessly? Nope.
As I suggested, it could have been so absurd that the Rebels might have begun to build superlasers on planets, powered by geothermal power in a way similar to Endor.
Heck, the EU precisely has a story about a superlaser built on a planet.