A challenge to Trekkies

[Trinoya]

Well naturally of course, but then we delve into an issue of thread necromancy as well...


Side note: Then again, we don't exactly have any rule against it here as long as it was something that contributed to the thread at hand. Still, a four year old thread will have debaters who are no longer present or have long since forgotten the points they were ready to make.

[Mr. Oragahn]

There's need to go necroing. Just reading them would be a good start. I think we're all open to questions. Needless repetition? Not so much though.

[Mike DiCenso]

The thing that I'm most concerned with here is if SWST is even looking back at any of the links to threads people have given him, or off-site resources, like YouTube. Mainly because SWST keeps either ignoring those links, not even acknowledging them in many cases, or tries to deflect them with weak references to SDN material or to low-canon hierarchy SW EU.

To StarWarsStarTrek,

As Trin and Oragahn have stated, there's no shame in admitting you were not expecting such a huge response. This is not SDN, we will not treat you poorly for doing that. You bit off more than you could chew, and you have a lot of information from the huge number of reponses to process, so take some time, and narrow your focus to something, like say "Can the Federation realistically take over the Galactic Empire", or "Hyperdrive versus Warp Drive" , ect.
-Mike

[User1460]

Ok, so how about a Trekkie (no offense, simply a term) try and answer these challenges. If 2 of these can be proven, then I'll concede.

I'm not a trekkie, but gotta be fair and honest:

1. A blatant, unjustifiable contradiction by G canon OR 3 or more by T/C canon of the ICS.

ICS or ICS2? They contradict each other, so you can't claim one's canonical and one isn't.

2. An explanation as to how the Federation matches or even comes close to matching Star War's industrial and numerical advantage.

Superior technology.

3. An explanation as to how the Federation's warp drive can possibly be matched to the far faster Star Wars hyperdrive.

Hyperdrive's limited to the space-lanes, otherwise they're back with basic thrust. That's why hyperdrive doesn't work in combat, and you have to plot a course before engaging it.
Also hyperdrive's not that much faster: and who's to say that Star Trek couldn't adapt their warp-engines to use the hyerrdrive space-lanes, since it's based on inferior technology? Star Trek simply hasn't had time to build such a mass-transit system in our own galaxy, like they did over in the Empire's.

4. A plan as to how the Federation could possibly mount any successful invasion of the Star Wars galaxy in under 100 years.

Go back 100 years in time and do it yesterday.
That aside, they could go back to the center of the galaxy, and us the supermassive black hole there to open a wormhole to the SW galaxy, and from there take over using their own space-lanes-- at warp speed.

5. An explanation as to how the Federation counters the sun crusher, centerpoint station or even the 2 death stars.

Simple: the Death Stars aren't hard to blow up, and the others are made using the same tech.
But the Sun Crusher has nothing on the Trilithium missiles, which can destroy a star in seconds from a the surface of a planet 90 million miles away.


To StarWarsStarTrek,

As Trin and Oragahn have stated, there's no shame in admitting you were not expecting such a huge response. This is not SDN, we will not treat you poorly for doing that.

Maybe that's the problem, i.e. SDN seems to "gang up" on anyone who opposes SW, and then ban them for "trolling." I wouldn't want to be guilty of contributing to that, since it achieves nothing but increased arrogance and hostility; I believe the intelligent way is reasoning things out, not driving someone away out of anger-management problems.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Sorry if this is a bit rushed.

I find typing my replies up on a text editor works well because it lets me come back later. I realize we all have lives out side of the internet.

It's quite obvious that Saxton was also referring to said ships in general and not just how they were portrayed in the movies, as shown since the ICS mentions BDZ, which wasn't shown in the movies but is confirmed by many EU sources. Nitpicking a technicality about the movie title doesn't change that.

Then it means Saxton screwed up, and did not do what he was suppose to, and because of that his work is not even C-canon. The book says it is a guide to the movies, and not on something that might not exist anywhere in Star Wars.

If he had noted that the armed ship was a later variant that would have solved the conflict, but the book portrays the ship that is picture as the variant seen in episode two, and that makes it S level canon at best.

The real world reason for many of the mistakes is that they did not have the finished visual effects/movie to work from, and a deadline that was before the VFXs would be done.

*sigh* Again, a technicality in the title of the book does not equate to the entire book being moot. Saxton clearly was going beyond the movies and delving deeper into the different vehicles and starships, not only how they were used in the movies.

BTW, what evidence is there that the Acclamators in AOTC didn't have guns? That seems unlikely that they'd make a ship that size and not put any defenses on it.

Actually, in ROTJ a star destroyer is one shotted after its shields fall, showing that turbolasers can one shot ships. This is confirmed in EU sources in which star destroyers often gets destroyed quickly enough that even Force users can only predict them a few seconds in advance, showing that turbolasers are powerful enough to one shot ships without much time passing.

We don't know if the shields were up or down on that ship, and everything we see says that shot was what is known as a golden BB. The shot caused a chain reaction that destroyed the SD. It normally takes several shots to destroy a ship even with it's shields down.

Before shields go down they tend to let damage through, and that means a ship will already be damaged and possibly on it's last legs by the time the shield is dropped.

None of the above supports or counters the claims in the ICS.

If a ship really did take many shots to drop after its shields fell, there would be plenty of warning before the ship was destroyed. However, in many of sources ships are destroyed without warning and suddenly, which would not have happened if the turbolasers weren't in the gigatons.

I didn't claim that CIS hover tanks had kiloton level firepower.

If a fighter like Slave-I, or the vehicles the clones use can have kiloton level fire power then it only makes sense that their enemies who think nothing of their troops well being would be more likely to use such fire power.

If Mace's troops had fire power anywhere near what the ICS claims they do then his men could have fired a single shot, and destroyed the droids shooting at them.

How long were both formations and how far away were they? Evidence suggests that the kiloton level weaponry for Slave 1 wasn't for rapid fire mode, but instead as a full powered shot; maybe misleading, but doesn't contradict G canon.

You might accuse me of making up a random rationalization, but note that the ICS states the slave 1's laser cannons as "2 kiloton (max)". Obviously the term "max" implies at its maximum power settings.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/File:Acc ... Ryloth.jpg
The picture at the address above shows Acclamators being shot down, and those black puffs of smoke are missed shots that explode as flack bursts if they miss. We can tell just from that picture we are not dealing with ICS level fire power.

For whatever reason, the Acclamators did not have their shields up, as indicated since they did not show the properties that shielded star destroyers typically do.

Besides, even this site's estimations put star destroyer shield strengths at high megatons to gigatons; those tons of tnt to low KT shots were clearly striking unshielded Acclamators.

I do suggest you watch the episodes of Star Wars: The Clone War I gave you the link to.

Iirc Mace Windu commented that it might have been a mistake to not bombard the planet from orbit...oh, but it's the second battle.

You can watch the episode at the site I linked to.

If you want to destroy factories fast putting troops on the ground miles away knowing the enemy has defenses ready and capable of stopping them is not a good way to do it fast.

By that logic, why didn't the Allies airdrop troops into Berlin? Because of enemy AA defenses and fortifications.

Like what? The clones showed impressive firepower, as well as the ability to fight while in thick dust that probably also had toxic chemicals.

The droids were more then far enough away from the clones and very close together that a few hundred pound bombs would have saved a lot of clone lives, but in the movie we get the helicopter analog just shooting missiles/rockets that only take out one or two droids at a time. A few kilotons would have saved clone lives.

Uh, even a few kilotons would not devastate a droid army that large. The battlefield was taking place over enormous distances. Remember that the Clone Army was rushed over to Geonosis to save Obi Wan and Anakin; they didn't have time to completely determine what forces they can and can't bring.

The second battle? Oh, actually based on pictures from the Wookieepedia article on it a Star Wars tank showed impressive, MOAB level firepower.

Could you provide a link to the page?

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Second_B ... f_Geonosis

Wookiepedia is not the most reliable source of information. It tends to be useful for very general information, but gets major things wrong like the Base Delta Zero page. Last I checked it had a Victory SD possibly shooting at a asteroid, and claiming that that was a BDZ. >_<

You do realize that you used Wookieepdia as a source too, right?

Proof that a gigaton level blast would cause the Earth to shake by any significant amount?

I'm not the best person to answer this so if I get something wrong someone feel free to correct me.

First keep in mind that blaster, laser, and turbolaser blots tend to explode on impact, or shortly after tunneling a very short way into the target

The energy from the turbolaser being released into the ground as result it will cause the ground to shake. The blast will move through the ground as it does through the air. They can tell when someone is testing a nuke, where the nuke was tested, and how powerful it was.

A magnitude 9 earthquake is the equivalent of 475,063,712 tons of TNT exploding.

A gigaton is 1,000,000,000 tons of TNT

That means a 1 gigaton turbolaser will explode and release into the ground more energy then is released when there is a magnitude 9 earthquake.

Let's just say a single gigaton of TNT going off will make things nearby shake real good even if they are protected from anything above ground.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richter_ma ... magnitudes
http://earthquake.usgs.gov/learn/faq/?faqID=33

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but would plasma based weapons cause as much ground displacement as earthquakes would?

Also, why does the amount of earthquakes it would cause matter?

Asteroids can still cause turbolasers to go off prematurely, sparing the other side. Also, where's your source for AT-ETs taking out ships?

Down Fall of a droid as I recall.

As I recall an AT-ET's most powerful weapons are rated in the kiloton range, and the very much weaker anti-personal blasters were doing notable damage to the CIS ships that are suppose to be able to take a few gigatons to the naked hull.

I would suggest you watch Star Wars the Clone war on the link I provided. As far as I know it is legal.

Um, since when was it claimed that CIS ships could take gigatons without shields? Those ships were, for whatever reason, unshielded; they don't demonstrate the characteristics of shielded ships and their durability is far too low even by the lowest G canon calculations.

When? Logically an established planet would be self sufficient, and if needed other planets could import in supplies; it's not like the Federation's going to be able to blockade Star Wars planets, not when their warp drive is too slow to even reach it.

While I agree that logically established planets should be self sufficient it is not always the case

Maybe small outposts would not be self sufficient, but planets with a self sustaining ecosystem would, and those planets would be the ones that matter in a war.

Given that the 12 million figure were those that were related to major Star Wars civilization (in that era the Empire) they almost certainly would have trade with the rest of the galaxy, and technological diffusion happens pretty quickly.

I'm confused, 12 milloin of what? Are you talking about planets?
We know that there are planets that during the clone war were at a stone age tech level, but still knew what was going on off planet.

Controlling 12 million planets would just be a matter of sticking a prefabricated base on the rock.

There are sources pointing towards 12 million inhabited planets, but to be honest 'only' one million of those are controlled by the Empire/earlier and later entities.

About 1 million of those planets are likely self sufficient ones, which is more than enough given that Coruscant alone likely outproduces the entire Federation combined.

It is a plot point of several episode that many home worlds are not self sufficient even though they don't seem to be as populated as modern day Earth. It doesn't make sense to me, but it is canon.>_<

Source?

Coruscant is just one giant city. It realistically shouldn't be able to exist as I understand it, but that is a different topic. We see nothing that shows it can feed it's population, and there I see it needing to import everything save maybe water. If it exports something it is likely fertilizer.

Star Wars has equivalents to duplicators as well, and probably genetic engineering and artificial growth. If they were to import everything, where would they get it from? The importation of food of trillions of civilians would need to come from planets that have a HUGE amount of food to spare, which is hard to see happening.

There is no reason to believe that Coruscant relies on other planets to import its supplies.

Even if it took their entire GDP, that would still be an extremely impressive feat of engineering.

Something matched and possibly surpassed in the enterprise era by a group smaller then the UFP. The Star Trek universe is a scary place.
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Xindi_superweapon

It seems the ships are the sizes they are in trek because they are the size best fit for the job.

About how big was that superweapon? Did it destroy a planet via DET or chain reaction?

That's actually an interesting question; how many star destroyers could Star Wars produce given full military mobilization? The CIS, which was relatively small, had about 1 million (or was it a billion?) transport ships of impressive size?

What are the sources for those numbers?

Are you sure you are not mixing up the "neutral" Trade Federation with the CIS?

How long did it take to build all those ships?

Did you know the clone war was bankrupting the Republic?

Sorry, can't find the link. However, it's logical to assume that a force with quintillions of battle droids would need a HUGE amount of transport ships, even if only one in a million of those battle droids were actually transported to war (which is a very low end assumption).

The CIS only recently began full scale war mobilization, given that the CIS wasn't even entirely formed by the time of AOTC.

Some mining companies in Star Wars actually mined billions of planets. Given hyperdrive's impressive speed and the huge amount of planets Star Wars has, getting durasteel is among the least of their problems.

The hyper-drive is actually limited to the hyper-lanes, or it slows down to the point of STL drives being as fast if not faster as seen in the Malevolence trilogy.

No, hyperdrive can work even without hyperlanes, as shown in AOTC, DE, POD, etc.

The Empire only control a small part of their galaxy.

Compared to the total number of planets, yes, but why would they want to control every last planet if most of them are barren or gas giants?

Not to mention that major Star Wars civilizations claimed the majority of the galaxy as part of their territory, but inhabited only small portions of it, which makes sense, since there isn't always a reason in inhabiting a planet when Star Wars does not seem to suffering any overpopulation issue.

What makes you think it wasn't all just recycled CIS stuff?

What? Some of it probably is recycled CIS stuff...but what's wrong with that in this scenario?

Durasteel is an alloy, and as I recall needs a rare metal call neutronium. The stuff isn't found just anywhere.

Yet in Coruscant we see GIANT durasteel skyscrapers that literally dwarf mountains covering most of the planet. The total mass of those skyscrapers likely exceeds that of the Death Star except for the likely extremely dense hypermatter reactor.

It's been a while since I read episode 4, but wasn't the Death Star made from simple steel?

Could simple steel possibly be strong enough to allow for a structure as big as the Death Star?

1000 worlds is still very minuscule compared to over a million worlds. That's an enormous difference that would be difficult to overcome in a conventional war.

A thousand worlds for seemingly one member of the UFP during Kirk's time, and the number was still climbing for humans in the TGN/DS9/Voyager era.

Unless if the number increased by 1000X in a few hundred years, Star Wars still has the advantage.

In the TNG/DS9/Voyager era there are 150+ members of the UFP.

vs a million? LOL

The UFP is very good at terraforming planets such as they did with Mars.

I don't deny that, but so is Star Wars, since it's extremely unlikely that 12 million planets would have naturally had life.

The numbers difference is not as big as you might think given the small size of the Star Wars galaxy, and the fact the Empire only takes up a small part of it.

Even going by the "small size" nonsense, a million planets > 1000 and growing planets.

Given that battle droids have numbers ranging from trillions to literally quintillions, the Clone Wars were indeed far larger than most.

Canon numbers are more like 100 battle droids to 1 clone trooper according to the Star Wars: the clone wars movie.

*sigh* "100 to one" is a common figure of speech that shouldn't be taken literally.

It could be roughly correct, but it still isn't agreed upon as to the size of the Clone Army either, so it's sort of circular reasoning.

The Yuuzhang Vong war inflicted over 300 trillion casualties. That would have exterminated the Federation over 300 times over.

The Vong were only dangerous because of their Dovin basal defenses which are next to useless to a trek power who have very fine control over gravity to the point they find blacks to be mildly dangerous. I highly doubt Vong weapons could get through trek shields let alone the weak navigational deflector both of which are gravity based defenses.

Actually, the Vong were dangerous because a plot device that suddenly made the New Republic super incompetent and the Vong immune to the Force.

Also, that's a red herring. The fact that the Vong inflicted over 300 trillion casualties on Star Wars plus a huge amount of homeless people/etc. and yet the Star Wars galaxy is still around speaks volumes about the difference in scale.

Star Wars trek is not very good when it comes to gravity. It's mostly electromagnetic technology

Uh, did you watch the PT? What do you think those airspeeders that can make extremely impressive maneuvers and are casual enough for a civilian to own them use? Repulsorlift, which is basically Star Wars for anti-gravity.

Not to mention the fact that the Death Star has anti-gravity given that its troops can walk on it in normal gravity, star destroyers would have to have anti gravity to neutralize the gavitational effects of hypermatter, and there are references in the EU to Star Wars ships controlling the gravity on it to make pilots move around faster.

What? Are you seriously suggesting that hyperdrive is slower than STL travel when even darkstar's low end claims put them at thousands of C, with more medium end claims being hundreds of thousands to millions of C?

The Malevolence was a fast ship, and it was not able to get to the place on the other side of a nebula faster then some Y-wings using Ion drives to go through the nebula. In practice a hyper-drive can be slower then a slower then light drive.

Yet in practice we clearly see Star Wars ships moving at speeds millions of times the speed of light with hyperdrive.

Note I said in practice. A hyper-drive will always be a faster then light drive system. It is only in narrow and specific areas that it can go at the speeds you are thinking of.

Like when Obi Wan was able to travel to a remote planet that was on the outer rim in a matter of hours/days?

Do use that link I gave you, and watch the series

When I have that time, I don't mind the Clone Wars series, although it's a little cheesy.

Then explain how Obi Wan found Kamino, which wasn't in any hyperlane, while using hyperdrive if it's supposedly STL.

Clearly there was a known rout to the place.

Except that Kamino was unknown to the galaxy, so much that the Jedi Archives didn't even have an entry on it.

I never said a hyper-drive was a STL drive system. It will always let you move at faster then light speeds, but it will not always get you to where you want to go faster then light because of limitations of the system.

Why? What limitations?

Do watch the series. It will answer many of your questions

But the Federation doesn't use most of their fancy tech more than once. They're either morons or there's some technical limitation to making them.

Could you please give some examples of what you mean?

Sun destroying torpedos - only used once
Time travel - only used a few times, usually by accident
Beaming photon torpedos onto another ship - never used iirc
The borg actually sending more than one cube at a time - shows the stupidity of the borg
Warp strafing - rarely used
Wide beam setting - rarely used

Basically, a Federation that was actually competent might stand a chance against Star Wars. However, the Federation and other Star Trek factions show a lower level of competence that even G canon imperial stormtroopers.

Perhaps because said star destroyers can take gigatons/teratons of tnt?

First off some things can't be overcome with brute force such as trek shields. Laser are useless for example because photons are effected by gravity.

LOL what? Do you think that gravity is some sort of no limits powerful force? Ever heard of escape velocity? Just because photons are affected by gravity doesn't mean that gravity of any magnitude can stop a laser.

Sorry, I have to go, I will respond to the rest later.

Secondly the asteroid taking off the bridge tower puts some nice upper limits on what a naked hull in Star wars can take. The numbers I've seen put it in the kiloton range. I would guess the hulls of a SD can take hits from blaster, lasers(the guns on things like X-wings) and turbolasers in the megaton range, and that their armor is ablative.

In down fall of a droid and all the in atmosphere fighting we have reason to think the clone War era ships are throwing around less then a megaton. Since Star Destroyers of the Imperial era are said to be much more powerful with their new solar ionisation reactors, I would guess megatons for weapons out put.

Multiple EU sources show stormtroopers having HUDs. Wookieepedia search it. The G canon does not have to confirm EU; EU sources are canon as long as they aren't CONTRADICTED by G canon.

Luke says he can't see a thing out of the helmet(or something to that effect), Clone troopers don't seem to have huds either, and I can't recall anyone have a HUD in Star wars when it comes to helmets. After a certain point lack of evidence is evidence of lack.

A few thousand C?

Please tell me you are not using Voyager as your source for warp speeds. Voyager was literally broken from episode one on.

Think about what the Enterprise actually does in the series and is shown to do.. A few thousand C does not make sense, and we are shown in episodes like "the chase" that they can go tens of hundreds of thousands of C.

Star Wars hyperdrive is millions of C.

And how do you get that speed?

So you're conceding that the UFP would have to copy Star Wars tech in order to stand a chance against them?

I'm asking if you think the Federation couldn't get common tech and information.

Even if they can capture some random Star Wars vessel and reverse engineer it, they'd still need to have the industrial capability to produce hypermatter.

Why would they need to capture a vessel? Ships are bought and sold to seemingly anyone with the money, anyone can be taught to fix one, and hyper-lane information is at worst a matter of paying a few credits.

Why would the UFP need this hyper-matter stuff? The Death Star ran on a fusion reactor, and Star Destroyers use Solar Ionization reactors (something that sounds like a fancy name for a fusion reactor).

Also, imperial star destroyer consume more energy in a single hyperspace jump than many nations do in their entire existence.

That looks like hyperbole like turn a planet to slag. It's also to vague to get any information from, and could run counter to other events.

Where does the quote come from, and what is the full context. It makes SDs sound like that are not very efficient.

Given the Federation's inferior power generation capabilities, it's doubtful that they could make hyperdrive work on bigger ships.

3 gigatons a second is not even a low end upper limit for the warp core.

Given that most ships in Star Wars are suppose to be drastically less powerful then Star Destroyers, I doubt the Feds would have a problem.

What? You mean how Obi Wan easily travels to Kamino, which was in the outer rim?

If you want to use the ICS's numbers you have to use all the numbers, and that means that the stupidly low ranges for the ships.

Acclamator: Range: 250,000 when fully fueled

Venator: Range: 60,000 effective range

Providence: Range: 40,000 effective range

Even with a plot device wormhole the UFP would still need to somehow get to Star Wars planets, get past their planetary shields can defeat the vastly more powerful and numerous Star Wars ground troops. Then, they'd need to hold the planets from attack.

If they can make the wormhole in the first place they can likely make one to go to a planet

Star Wars planets rarely have planetary shields. Even a rich and important planet like Alderaan did not have a shields.

A planetary shield in Star Wars is in truth just a theater shield covering a few kilometers. It would be child's play to just blow up a torpedo under the shield generator.

3,000,000 troops is able to fight a galaxy spanning war, and those were the the emperors best troop fighting the Ewkos, and Vader's troops in Ep 4 are not any better. Nothing in Star Wars says there are large, and competent armies.

Blasters are only better then muskets in the fact that they are not single shot weapons.

You'd still need to prove that the Federation can reverse engineer Star Wars tech or concede your point.

Given the UFP has never gotten their hands on any technologies from the Star Wars universe I can't prove it, but you can't prove the UFP can't for the same reason.

I can provide evidence that it is likely can reverse engineer Star Wars tech.

We know there are things that ignore, or easily drain star wars shields in Star wars.

We know at least one of those things is for sale on the black market.

We know you can buy shields in star wars, how they work is not really a secret, and that they have flaws.

We know the UFP was able to reversed engineered things they seemingly have never encountered before like for example phased polaron weapons in a short amount of time, and modify their existing tech to counter it. I'm sure there are even more off the wall silly examples.

Sorry but the level of wankage in this is disturbing. Are you seriously claiming that Federation ships can shrug off BLACK HOLES when Federation captains are reluctant to go within millions of KM of a neutron star, which BTW, a Star Wars civilian vessel went within 3000 km of without suffering any noticeable damage?

That's...wankage to the extreme.

It's not wank if it's done on screen.
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Black_hole
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Singularity
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Event_horizon
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Black_star

I think you are going to have to provide more information about the neutron star in question, and the state of the ship. Naming the episode it takes place in would be a good start.

Given Lando needed to make shield ships to protect even mighty Star destroyers from a mundane star I think you need to provide more information.

The sun crusher could blow up a Federation star system, go back to a Star Wars base and THEN the pilot could get out.

That assumes three things:

1) that the sun crusher is not N-canon. The end of Episode three brings into question the prototype death's existence.

2) that the sun crusher would not be spotted, and stopped. Why would the UFP not spot it, and stop it, or the torpedo?

3) that the sun crusher can even get to a trek system without hyper-lanes.

How would Trek ships stop it? Do you have proof?

Capture the tiny little sun crusher with a tractor beam, and shoot off it blasters, and shoot down it's torpedos if need be.

Trek powers can shoot torpedos down in their own universe, and their torpedos tend to move at high factions of C if not FTL.

...what?

A founder/changeling tried to destroy Bajor's star in a similar way you say the Sun Crush would work, but it was spotted, and stopped.

Look at the episode "By Inferno's Light".

In LOTF: Fury, centerpoint station fired at a Galactic Alliance fleet while in the Corellian star system; the fleet was in a point midway between Coruscant and Corellia, aka a lot of space. Then, the commanders of Centerpoint Station were seriously considering blowing up Coruscant from there.

That doesn't tell us the station has intergalactic range. It does not even tell us the station can target anywhere in the the Star Wars galaxy.

[/quote]

[Nowhereman10]

*sigh* Again, a technicality in the title of the book does not equate to the entire book being moot. Saxton clearly was going beyond the movies and delving deeper into the different vehicles and starships, not only how they were used in the movies.

BTW, what evidence is there that the Acclamators in AOTC didn't have guns? That seems unlikely that they'd make a ship that size and not put any defenses on it.

Dude, people here have only been hitting you with all the references to threads that document this in great detail.

Here's a reminder about the lack of Turbolasers on Acclamators.

Hell, at Spacebattles.com they've been asking the same question, and getting the same answer: NO TURBOLASERS.

How much more do you need? ICS is not accurate. The guns are not there where the stupid book says they're supposed to be. But just to be sure.... here's another one.

So how much more do you need, SWST?

If a ship really did take many shots to drop after its shields fell, there would be plenty of warning before the ship was destroyed. However, in many of sources ships are destroyed without warning and suddenly, which would not have happened if the turbolasers weren't in the gigatons.

This is a piece of work. Seriously, if any Trekkies said what you did, it would not be considered proof of uberpowerful Trek weapons, you guys would claim it's proof of weak Trek shields and fragile systems. In fact one shot, one kill happens quite a bit in Trek, like in "Sacrifice of Angels" in the big fleet battle. Conversely in TCW in "Supply Lines", we have Admiral Doa complaining about being out of fuel and ammo right before saying the shields are down, and his ship being destroyed along with others in his fleet. So what does that prove?

For whatever reason, the Acclamators did not have their shields up, as indicated since they did not show the properties that shielded star destroyers typically do.

Besides, even this site's estimations put star destroyer shield strengths at high megatons to gigatons; those tons of tnt to low KT shots were clearly striking unshielded Acclamators.

Unshielded Acclamators? What about those awesome neutronium hulls we keep hearing about? Aren't they supposed to be able to soak up several giganton shots? According the ICS, if it were right, they should be able to soak hundreds of gigatons. Instead, the Acclamators, and before that Venators while in planetary atmospheres can't soak what look like World War II-level flack bursts. Tell me what's wrong with this picture? This site? You mean Starfleet Jedi? Some people's estimates try to be generous and put the total broadside firepower of an ISD in the hundreds of megatons total. But TCW overrides Starfleet Jedi, and what we see there is not even kilotons of firepower. Maybe tons.

[User1460]

How long were both formations and how far away were they? Evidence suggests that the kiloton level weaponry for Slave 1 wasn't for rapid fire mode, but instead as a full powered shot; maybe misleading, but doesn't contradict G canon.

Except the full powered shot that Boba fired at Obi-wan on the Kamino platform, which didn't even phase him.... or scratch the surface. Clearly not a KT-- let alone 66 of them as some EUphorics claim.
More like few kilograms, as Darkstar correctly estimates.

You'd still need to prove that the Federation can reverse engineer Star Wars tech or concede your point.

They'd also be able to mind-meld the engineers themselves, as well as read their computer-data, so there's no need to reverse-engineer it if they can go straight to the pony's mouth.
In addition, let's remember that if the SW tech is in working order, they can scan it in action to understand how it works. If SW can't even use space-warps, subspace transporters or replicators, then it's within ST's technological grasp. So even if an SW ship came floating in, they could do it.
ST scanner are so powerful, remember, that they can beam objects from one place to another; this would be enough to create a working computer-model of it. However SW seems to be inferior tech, while the only unique thing it has is hyperdrive motivators to access the galaxy's age-old space-lanes.

[Lucky]

*sigh* Again, a technicality in the title of the book does not equate to the entire book being moot. Saxton clearly was going beyond the movies and delving deeper into the different vehicles and starships, not only how they were used in the movies.

If I purchase a book that says on the cover that it is "the definitive guide to dinosaurs of the Jurassic", but it has some dinosaurs from the Cretaceous it means someone screwed up, and all the information in the book is suspect because the author(s) did not check their facts.

BTW, what evidence is there that the Acclamators in AOTC didn't have guns? That seems unlikely that they'd make a ship that size and not put any defenses on it.

Acclamators are never shown to fire a weapon that I can recall, and none of the models have anything that looks like what is depicted in the ICS.
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... f=8&t=1597&

http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=144434
Note: in post 70 the Who Is Like God posted a quote from the back cover

If a ship really did take many shots to drop after its shields fell, there would be plenty of warning before the ship was destroyed. However, in many of sources ships are destroyed without warning and suddenly, which would not have happened if the turbolasers weren't in the gigatons.

There is a big difference between being able to normally take a good 3 to 5 hits at least, and one hit that causes a chain reaction.

How long were both formations and how far away were they? Evidence suggests that the kiloton level weaponry for Slave 1 wasn't for rapid fire mode, but instead as a full powered shot; maybe misleading, but doesn't contradict G canon.

I don't recall exactly how many troops Mace had at the time, but he had at least 2 AT-ET, and the path/cliff was narrow enough that the AT-ETs had to travel single file. destroying the road would have at worst(from the CIS's point of view) slowed down Mace's forces. I would suggest you watch the series. It is free online.

You might accuse me of making up a random rationalization, but note that the ICS states the slave 1's laser cannons as "2 kiloton (max)". Obviously the term "max" implies at its maximum power settings.

As I recall they tried to use full power to kill Obi-won.

For whatever reason, the Acclamators did not have their shields up, as indicated since they did not show the properties that shielded star destroyers typically do.

Besides, even this site's estimations put star destroyer shield strengths at high megatons to gigatons; those tons of tnt to low KT shots were clearly striking unshielded Acclamators.

"Enemy fusion rockets barely score the super dispersive neutronium-impregnated hull."

If we are to believe the ICS then we must conclude that ships can take nukes to their bare hulls, and only take minor damage.

By that logic, why didn't the Allies airdrop troops into Berlin? Because of enemy AA defenses and fortifications.

The Allies bomb the hell out of things like factors night and day in spite of German fighters, and anti-aircraft guns. They only landed troops on the ground to take and hold ground.

The Republic had taken space, and we see no sign of an air that the Republic forces would have to face.

Uh, even a few kilotons would not devastate a droid army that large. The battlefield was taking place over enormous distances. Remember that the Clone Army was rushed over to Geonosis to save Obi Wan and Anakin; they didn't have time to completely determine what forces they can and can't bring.

As I recall the clone army there was 200,000. The droid army can't have been very large.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Second_B ... f_Geonosis

Are you referring to this picture looking like the results of a MOAB?
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/File:Fou ... troyed.jpg

AsI recall that was the result of a chain reaction started by some fist size bombs Ahsoka placed on the reactor.

You do realize that you used Wookieepdia as a source too, right?

Not as my only source. I'd link you to the episodes on YouTube, but the keep getting removed, and that is why I keep saying watch the episodes.

Wookiepedia has a wealth of pictures, and most of them are what they it says it is, and I try to make sure there are no major inaccuracies. I only have a limited amount of time in a day for this sort of stuff, and if I know someone else has already done the work I don't see a reason to do it again.

You need to check any wiki to see if it is actuate, and when it comes to Star Wars there are some people who only read a children's book, and then ignore all other often higher canon sources.

Did you know there are Star Wars books that literally say fighter grade weapons shoot kilo-joules, and tera-joules are considered respectable outputs for capital ship weapons?

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but would plasma based weapons cause as much ground displacement as earthquakes would?

An Earthquake is simply the sudden release of energy that has built up underground, and causes an explosion.

The plasma would cause an explosion, and the shock wave will travel through both the air and the ground. I'm not sure you can however really compare plasma and things like blasters and turbolasers.

Also, why does the amount of earthquakes it would cause matter?

The magnitude(I think you mean) of an earthquake is a measurement of how much energy is released. The higher the magnitude the more powerful the earthquake.

A magnitude 9 earthquake releases a little less energy then half a gigaton of TNT. The closer you get to the center of the explosion the more destructive it will be. As I said they can use sensor that measure vibrations in the Earth's crust to tell where a bomb was set off, and how powerful it was.

Um, since when was it claimed that CIS ships could take gigatons without shields? Those ships were, for whatever reason, unshielded; they don't demonstrate the characteristics of shielded ships and their durability is far too low even by the lowest G canon calculations.

They take a few hit even with no shields, and a troop transport has 200 gigaton guns.

As I recall the is something that says a war ship can channel it's entire reactor output through it's guns.

Maybe small outposts would not be self sufficient, but planets with a self sustaining ecosystem would, and those planets would be the ones that matter in a war.

You'd think so, but when the Trade fed blockaded pantora the natives threatened to revolt, and Mandalore needs to import food and water.

There are sources pointing towards 12 million inhabited planets, but to be honest 'only' one million of those are controlled by the Empire/earlier and later entities.

Well the Empire is only a tiny area of the galaxy.

Source?

SW:TCW Sphere_of_Influence

SW: TCW Corruption

The Trade fed really should not have much business if Planets can sustain themselves.

Star Wars has equivalents to duplicators as well, and probably genetic engineering and artificial growth. If they were to import everything, where would they get it from? The importation of food of trillions of civilians would need to come from planets that have a HUGE amount of food to spare, which is hard to see happening.

There is no reason to believe that Coruscant relies on other planets to import its supplies.

The problem is no matter how you cut it we see no way Coruscant feeds people one way or another. I would expect there to be large farms to have come up.

I have never seen a duplicator mentioned in all the Star Wars i have seen and read, and Wookiepedia only has one source on the page, and makes them sound very limited in what they can do. They certainly do not seem to be as good as their Star Trek counter parts.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Duplicator

About how big was that superweapon? Did it destroy a planet via DET or chain reaction?

The Death Stars superlaser was chain reaction as shown in the movies, and described in sevral books.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHCNha9Xxas
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8zsdIQe9UQ

Sorry, can't find the link. However, it's logical to assume that a force with quintillions of battle droids would need a HUGE amount of transport ships, even if only one in a million of those battle droids were actually transported to war (which is a very low end assumption).

I've heard the quintillions of battle droids quote before, and it doesn't make sense, and in the latest episode of SW: TCW the banking clan claims that the CIS got a loan to purchase 3,000,000 more battle droids.

The CIS only recently began full scale war mobilization, given that the CIS wasn't even entirely formed by the time of AOTC.

They are as well outfitted as the Republic who is in the same boat, and the future emporer was planning the whole thing for a while.

No, hyperdrive can work even without hyperlanes, as shown in AOTC, DE, POD, etc.

It's a matter of having to make lots of little jumps that slows them down.

Go watch Star Wars The Clone War on the site I showed you, and you will understand what i mean.

Compared to the total number of planets, yes, but why would they want to control every last planet if most of them are barren or gas giants?

Not to mention that major Star Wars civilizations claimed the majority of the galaxy as part of their territory, but inhabited only small portions of it, which makes sense, since there isn't always a reason in inhabiting a planet when Star Wars does not seem to suffering any overpopulation issue.

The Empire was larger then the Republic, and the Empire was run by insane megalomaniacs.

The Quote I'm recalling was about the Empire, and not where everyone lived.

What? Some of it probably is recycled CIS stuff...but what's wrong with that in this scenario?

Nothings wrong with it, but if it is made of recycled CIS stuff, but if it is the Death Star tells us very little about the Empire's ability to quickly gather resources.

Yet in Coruscant we see GIANT durasteel skyscrapers that literally dwarf mountains covering most of the planet. The total mass of those skyscrapers likely exceeds that of the Death Star except for the likely extremely dense hypermatter reactor.

"     Daala turned and ripped one of the electric-blue glowtorches from the floor behind her.  'Enough!' she shouted.  She raised the durasteel staff high and smashed it down upon the tabletop.  The glowcrystal exploded into shards with crackling blue sparks, and transparent fragmentsflew in all directions.  She hammered the rod down again and again, denting the table, bending the staff, and fragmenting the end."   [ "Darksaber", p. 133 ]
http://st-v-sw.net/Obsidian/STSWObsid-Order.html

Where are you getting the idea that the Death Stars are powered by hypermatter?

Could simple steel possibly be strong enough to allow for a structure as big as the Death Star?

The Death Star exists in a very low G inviroment, and they have some nifty gravity tech.

Most of the Death Stars was empty space.

Unless if the number increased by 1000X in a few hundred years, Star Wars still has the advantage.

It may have.

The Diminion war had more casualties then the Clone war as I recall. The Feds at least expected billions, and the clone war was millions.

vs a million? LOL

The Empire didn't have members.

I don't deny that, but so is Star Wars, since it's extremely unlikely that 12 million planets would have naturally had life.

That would be the work of the guy who made Centerpoint station as I recall.

Trek Takes Mars, and makes it like Earth in a few years at most.

*sigh* "100 to one" is a common figure of speech that shouldn't be taken literally.

It could be roughly correct, but it still isn't agreed upon as to the size of the Clone Army either, so it's sort of circular reasoning.

Watch the clone wars movie.

The Republic was thinking of buying 5,000,000 more clones in the latest episode.

Actually, the Vong were dangerous because a plot device that suddenly made the New Republic super incompetent and the Vong immune to the Force.

So resistant to force plus the star wars characters acted like morons like normal.

Also, that's a red herring. The fact that the Vong inflicted over 300 trillion casualties on Star Wars plus a huge amount of homeless people/etc. and yet the Star Wars galaxy is still around speaks volumes about the difference in scale.

The Vong are more a different topic then a red herring. What you describe the Vong having caused is what every ship in trek could do on it's own.

Uh, did you watch the PT? What do you think those airspeeders that can make extremely impressive maneuvers and are casual enough for a civilian to own them use? Repulsorlift, which is basically Star Wars for anti-gravity.

Here are my thoughts on the matter.
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... f=8&t=1584

Not to mention the fact that the Death Star has anti-gravity given that its troops can walk on it in normal gravity, star destroyers would have to have anti gravity to neutralize the gavitational effects of hypermatter, and there are references in the EU to Star Wars ships controlling the gravity on it to make pilots move around faster.

This hyper matter stuff again.>_< The Death Stars, and other craft in Star Wars used fusion.

Do you by any chance have the quotes references in the EU to Star Wars ships controlling the gravity on it to make pilots move around faster?

Yet in practice we clearly see Star Wars ships moving at speeds millions of times the speed of light with hyperdrive.

With the use of pre-charted hyper-lanes.

Like when Obi Wan was able to travel to a remote planet that was on the outer rim in a matter of hours/days?

1) He is a Jedi. Force users are good at finding the routs that will not kill them.

2) He would have known where the nearest/best known hyper-lanes already were.

When I have that time, I don't mind the Clone Wars series, although it's a little cheesy.

As are all six of the live action movies.

Except that Kamino was unknown to the galaxy, so much that the Jedi Archives didn't even have an entry on it.

Yet someone went there and placed an order for clones. More like someone deleted the information.

Why? What limitations?

Well for one thing hyper-lanes are so narrow you can mine them.

You can only go in a straightish line.

If there is something like a nebula in you way then you have to hyper around it while the tiny Y-wings go through it, and get to the other side in about the same amount of time.

Sun destroying torpedos - only used once

Why would they want to use them? It's not that they can't make them, as they have several ways, but why would they?

Time travel - only used a few times, usually by accident

You need to research trek better. The UFP can do it any time they want it. It's how they got the whales after all.

Beaming photon torpedos onto another ship - never used iirc

It was done on Voyager, and most of the time the idea would just be a waste of time since the targets shield would already be down.

The borg actually sending more than one cube at a time - shows the stupidity of the borg

They do do that if they care enough, but the UFP just doesn't matter enough to them. They seem to test new assimilation methods on the UFP instead of caring about assimilating the UFP.

Warp strafing - rarely used

It's one of those things that is most useful if the other guy can't do it.

Wide beam setting - rarely used

True, but that is a limitation of the media as opposed to what the writers wanted to do. from what I've read.

Basically, a Federation that was actually competent might stand a chance against Star Wars. However, the Federation and other Star Trek factions show a lower level of competence that even G canon imperial stormtroopers.

You are going to have to provide evidence.

LOL what? Do you think that gravity is some sort of no limits powerful force? Ever heard of escape velocity? Just because photons are affected by gravity doesn't mean that gravity of any magnitude can stop a laser.

Sorry, I have to go, I will respond to the rest later.

Do you actually believe a photon can escape a black hole? The gravity control in trek is just crazy. Voyager was making black hole to get to other dimensions/universes.

[Lucky]

ICS or ICS2? They contradict each other, so you can't claim one's canonical and one isn't.

That sounds interesting. Could you please give an example?

[Mike DiCenso]

Time travel - only used a few times, usually by accident

The UFP can do it any time they want it. It's how they got the whales after all.

Well, in addition to Star Trek: The Voyage Home, let's not also forget "Assignment: Earth" where the E-1701 deliberately went back in time to observe events in 1968, which is how they got caught up with Gary Seven.

Then there's the rather scary routine time-space travel abilities of the 29th and 31st century Federation with actual timeships, and the ability to beam people anywhere in the Milky Way galaxy at any time as seen in "Future's End", "Relativity" and much of ST:ENT. The 23rd and 24th century do have the ability.
-Mike

[Picard]

About Wookiepedia, problem is in this:
"All material in Wookieepedia must be attributable to a reliable, published source."

Which means analysis is not allowed, just official (C-canon) sources. And that includes ICS2 and ICS3 (I don't know from where they got that EU is reliable source)...

[User1460]

Time travel - only used a few times, usually by accident

The UFP can do it any time they want it. It's how they got the whales after all.

Well, in addition to Star Trek: The Voyage Home, let's not also forget "Assignment: Earth" where the E-1701 deliberately went back in time to observe events in 1968, which is how they got caught up with Gary Seven.

You mean Gary Stu.
I like to think that Starfleet formed the Temporal Prime Directive solely in order to keep him from showing his arse on-set ever again... I really do hate him that much, almost as much as I hate Seven o' Nine Tails.
(Sorry, pet peeve.)

[StarWarsStarTrek]

*sigh* Again, a technicality in the title of the book does not equate to the entire book being moot. Saxton clearly was going beyond the movies and delving deeper into the different vehicles and starships, not only how they were used in the movies.

If I purchase a book that says on the cover that it is "the definitive guide to dinosaurs of the Jurassic", but it has some dinosaurs from the Cretaceous it means someone screwed up, and all the information in the book is suspect because the author(s) did not check their facts.

False analogy. A better analogy would be if there was a book on WW2 tanks, and a book talked about a tank and said that it was later refitted with sloped armor after the war.

BTW, what evidence is there that the Acclamators in AOTC didn't have guns? That seems unlikely that they'd make a ship that size and not put any defenses on it.

Acclamators are never shown to fire a weapon that I can recall, and none of the models have anything that looks like what is depicted in the ICS.
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... f=8&t=1597&

http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=144434
Note: in post 70 the Who Is Like God posted a quote from the back cover

Hmmm...ok, but again, there would be different versions of the Acclamator, especially since the First Battle of Geonosis was the first battle of the Clone Wars and the Clone Army had to rush there.

If a ship really did take many shots to drop after its shields fell, there would be plenty of warning before the ship was destroyed. However, in many of sources ships are destroyed without warning and suddenly, which would not have happened if the turbolasers weren't in the gigatons.

There is a big difference between being able to normally take a good 3 to 5 hits at least, and one hit that causes a chain reaction.

Do you have any examples of this?

How long were both formations and how far away were they? Evidence suggests that the kiloton level weaponry for Slave 1 wasn't for rapid fire mode, but instead as a full powered shot; maybe misleading, but doesn't contradict G canon.

I don't recall exactly how many troops Mace had at the time, but he had at least 2 AT-ET, and the path/cliff was narrow enough that the AT-ETs had to travel single file. destroying the road would have at worst(from the CIS's point of view) slowed down Mace's forces. I would suggest you watch the series. It is free online.

Was this on a mountain? Or a bridge? Or what?

You might accuse me of making up a random rationalization, but note that the ICS states the slave 1's laser cannons as "2 kiloton (max)". Obviously the term "max" implies at its maximum power settings.

As I recall they tried to use full power to kill Obi-won.

Yeah, but if Jango used 2 kiloton shots he would not have have had the same rate of fire as he would if he were to use the settings that he used.

For whatever reason, the Acclamators did not have their shields up, as indicated since they did not show the properties that shielded star destroyers typically do.

Besides, even this site's estimations put star destroyer shield strengths at high megatons to gigatons; those tons of tnt to low KT shots were clearly striking unshielded Acclamators.

"Enemy fusion rockets barely score the super dispersive neutronium-impregnated hull."

If we are to believe the ICS then we must conclude that ships can take nukes to their bare hulls, and only take minor damage.

And there is plenty of evidence that they do. How powerful were those flak bursts? How many times did they hit? Where did they hit? Was this made clear in the episode?

By that logic, why didn't the Allies airdrop troops into Berlin? Because of enemy AA defenses and fortifications.

The Allies bomb the hell out of things like factors night and day in spite of German fighters, and anti-aircraft guns. They only landed troops on the ground to take and hold ground.

Yet if the Germans had a theater shield, the Allies obviously wouldn't be able to do that.

The Republic had taken space, and we see no sign of an air that the Republic forces would have to face.

Wasn't there a theater shield?

Uh, even a few kilotons would not devastate a droid army that large. The battlefield was taking place over enormous distances. Remember that the Clone Army was rushed over to Geonosis to save Obi Wan and Anakin; they didn't have time to completely determine what forces they can and can't bring.

As I recall the clone army there was 200,000. The droid army can't have been very large.

The droid army was over a million in that battle.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Second_B ... f_Geonosis

Are you referring to this picture looking like the results of a MOAB?
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/File:Fou ... troyed.jpg

AsI recall that was the result of a chain reaction started by some fist size bombs Ahsoka placed on the reactor.

Fist sized bombs? That seems to be pretty small, thus making it an impressive feat.

You do realize that you used Wookieepdia as a source too, right?

Not as my only source. I'd link you to the episodes on YouTube, but the keep getting removed, and that is why I keep saying watch the episodes.

Wookiepedia has a wealth of pictures, and most of them are what they it says it is, and I try to make sure there are no major inaccuracies. I only have a limited amount of time in a day for this sort of stuff, and if I know someone else has already done the work I don't see a reason to do it again.

You need to check any wiki to see if it is actuate, and when it comes to Star Wars there are some people who only read a children's book, and then ignore all other often higher canon sources.

Did you know there are Star Wars books that literally say fighter grade weapons shoot kilo-joules, and tera-joules are considered respectable outputs for capital ship weapons?

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but would plasma based weapons cause as much ground displacement as earthquakes would?

An Earthquake is simply the sudden release of energy that has built up
underground, and causes an explosion.

The plasma would cause an explosion, and the shock wave will travel through both the air and the ground. I'm not sure you can however really compare plasma and things like blasters and turbolasers.

Also, why does the amount of earthquakes it would cause matter?

The magnitude(I think you mean) of an earthquake is a measurement of how much energy is released. The higher the magnitude the more powerful the earthquake.

A magnitude 9 earthquake releases a little less energy then half a gigaton of TNT. The closer you get to the center of the explosion the more destructive it will be. As I said they can use sensor that measure vibrations in the Earth's crust to tell where a bomb was set off, and how powerful it was.

Ok, and?

Um, since when was it claimed that CIS ships could take gigatons without shields? Those ships were, for whatever reason, unshielded; they don't demonstrate the characteristics of shielded ships and their durability is far too low even by the lowest G canon calculations.

They take a few hit even with no shields, and a troop transport has 200 gigaton guns.

Evidence? Examples? Hello?

As I recall the is something that says a war ship can channel it's entire reactor output through it's guns.

Correct, which is a lot.

Maybe small outposts would not be self sufficient, but planets with a self sustaining ecosystem would, and those planets would be the ones that matter in a war.

You'd think so, but when the Trade fed blockaded pantora the natives threatened to revolt, and Mandalore needs to import food and water.

Mandalore maybe, but Coruscant? Mandalore in some cases had a population of a few million; Coruscant's population was in the trillions.

There are sources pointing towards 12 million inhabited planets, but to be honest 'only' one million of those are controlled by the Empire/earlier and later entities.

Well the Empire is only a tiny area of the galaxy.

They owned a large area of the galaxy but only needed to inhabit a small portion of it, although "small" is still 3 orders of magnitude larger than the Federation.

Source?

SW:TCW Sphere_of_Influence

SW: TCW Corruption

The Trade fed really should not have much business if Planets can sustain themselves.

It could be for trade; that is, planets in Star Wars are economically interdependent on each other due to the existence of casual galactic trade. However, this does not equate to not being able to sustain itself in terms of food and water.

Star Wars has equivalents to duplicators as well, and probably genetic engineering and artificial growth. If they were to import everything, where would they get it from? The importation of food of trillions of civilians would need to come from planets that have a HUGE amount of food to spare, which is hard to see happening.

There is no reason to believe that Coruscant relies on other planets to import its supplies.

The problem is no matter how you cut it we see no way Coruscant feeds people one way or another. I would expect there to be large farms to have come up.

I have never seen a duplicator mentioned in all the Star Wars i have seen and read, and Wookiepedia only has one source on the page, and makes them sound very limited in what they can do. They certainly do not seem to be as good as their Star Trek counter parts.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Duplicator

Quote from wookieepedia (it's cited):

With no other bodies of water available to feed and water its trillion inhabitants, Coruscant's architects, along with many others from around the galaxy, worked together to build a self-contained eco-system in the massive buildings set all over the planet. Polar cap stations also melted ice and distributed water throughout the planet-wide city through a complex series of pipes.[2]

About how big was that superweapon? Did it destroy a planet via DET or chain reaction?

The Death Stars superlaser was chain reaction as shown in the movies, and described in sevral books.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHCNha9Xxas
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8zsdIQe9UQ

By "several books" you probably mean Star Wars: Death Star, which is does NOT imply a chain reaction.

He knew that hypermatter existed only in hyperspace, that it was composed of tachyonic particles, that charged tachyons, when constrained by the lower dimensions of realspace, produced near-limitless energy. How this "null-point energy" had become unstable he didn't know. He only knew it had been powerful enough to turn an ISD-II and its crew of thirty-seven thousand people into floating wisps of ionized gases in a microsecond.

It took no more than an instant. Tenn knew that the beam's total destructive power was much bigger than mass-energy conversions limited to realspace. At full charge, the hyper-matter reactor provided a superluminal "boost" that caused much of the planet's mass to be shifted immediately into hyperspace. As a result, Alderaan exploded into a fiery ball of eye-smiting light almost instantaneously, and a planar ring of energy reflux-the "shadow" of a hyperspatial ripple-spread rapidly outward.

Basically, hypermatter isn't completely mass-energy conversion, but also gets some of its energy from tachyonic particles. This does not mean that it was a chain reaction. The fact that part of the planet's mass was shifted into hyperspace is a FUNCTION of the hypermatter reactor and logically takes ENERGY to do. It seems to be a side effect rather than an intended chain reaction. So therefore, the theories of a fusion chain reaction are incorrect.

This is further supported by the earlier example of a 33% power superlaser blowing up a planet in 3 bursts; no chain reaction shown, simply 3 powerful bursts.

Sorry, can't find the link. However, it's logical to assume that a force with quintillions of battle droids would need a HUGE amount of transport ships, even if only one in a million of those battle droids were actually transported to war (which is a very low end assumption).

I've heard the quintillions of battle droids quote before, and it doesn't make sense, and in the latest episode of SW: TCW the banking clan claims that the CIS got a loan to purchase 3,000,000 more battle droids.

What battle droids? Regular ones? Super battle droids? Droidekas? It isn't specified; it could have been B3 ultra battle droids.

The CIS only recently began full scale war mobilization, given that the CIS wasn't even entirely formed by the time of AOTC.

They are as well outfitted as the Republic who is in the same boat, and the future emporer was planning the whole thing for a while.

Uh, not really. The Republic curbstomping the CIS in the Battle of Geonosis implies that the CIS wasn't exactly ready for all out war yet.

No, hyperdrive can work even without hyperlanes, as shown in AOTC, DE, POD, etc.

It's a matter of having to make lots of little jumps that slows them down.

But they can still used hyperspace like that, which is STILL far faster than warp drive.

Go watch Star Wars The Clone War on the site I showed you, and you will understand what i mean.

I will when I have time.

Compared to the total number of planets, yes, but why would they want to control every last planet if most of them are barren or gas giants?

Not to mention that major Star Wars civilizations claimed the majority of the galaxy as part of their territory, but inhabited only small portions of it, which makes sense, since there isn't always a reason in inhabiting a planet when Star Wars does not seem to suffering any overpopulation issue.

The Empire was larger then the Republic, and the Empire was run by insane megalomaniacs.

The Quote I'm recalling was about the Empire, and not where everyone lived.

The Empire owned a large part of the galaxy. They only INHABITED a small potion of the galaxy because they didn't NEED to inhabit every planet.

What? Some of it probably is recycled CIS stuff...but what's wrong with that in this scenario?

Nothings wrong with it, but if it is made of recycled CIS stuff, but if it is the Death Star tells us very little about the Empire's ability to quickly gather resources.

By the time of ROTJ, most of the CIS material would likely have been used, unless if they kept a bunch of recyled stuff around for 20 years, which is highly unlikely.

Yet in Coruscant we see GIANT durasteel skyscrapers that literally dwarf mountains covering most of the planet. The total mass of those skyscrapers likely exceeds that of the Death Star except for the likely extremely dense hypermatter reactor.

"     Daala turned and ripped one of the electric-blue glowtorches from the floor behind her.  'Enough!' she shouted.  She raised the durasteel staff high and smashed it down upon the tabletop.  The glowcrystal exploded into shards with crackling blue sparks, and transparent fragmentsflew in all directions.  She hammered the rod down again and again, denting the table, bending the staff, and fragmenting the end."   [ "Darksaber", p. 133 ]
http://st-v-sw.net/Obsidian/STSWObsid-Order.html

Except that it isn't specified how large the staff was or what grade durasteal it was, and one can bend a steel staff if it's thin enough.

Where are you getting the idea that the Death Stars are powered by hypermatter?

Star Wars: Death Star.

Could simple steel possibly be strong enough to allow for a structure as big as the Death Star?

The Death Star exists in a very low G inviroment, and they have some nifty gravity tech.

There is little evidence that Star Wars still uses conventional steel en mass; if the Death Star isn't durasteel, it's probably some titanium alloy, as starfighters and possibly capital ships are made of.

Most of the Death Stars was empty space.

Yeah, and?

Unless if the number increased by 1000X in a few hundred years, Star Wars still has the advantage.

It may have.

Uh, no. That's an impossibility.

The Diminion war had more casualties then the Clone war as I recall. The Feds at least expected billions, and the clone war was millions.

And the Yuuzhang Vong had over 300 trillion casualties.

vs a million? LOL

The Empire didn't have members.

Technicality; does it really matter?

I don't deny that, but so is Star Wars, since it's extremely unlikely that 12 million planets would have naturally had life.

That would be the work of the guy who made Centerpoint station as I recall.

No evidence of that.

Trek Takes Mars, and makes it like Earth in a few years at most.

Ok, and?

*sigh* "100 to one" is a common figure of speech that shouldn't be taken literally.

It could be roughly correct, but it still isn't agreed upon as to the size of the Clone Army either, so it's sort of circular reasoning.

Watch the clone wars movie.

The Republic was thinking of buying 5,000,000 more clones in the latest episode.

Which doesn't mean much if we don't know how big the 5 million figure was in terms of importance. Was the entire Senate debating over it? Did it specifically state 5 million clones or 5 million units?

Actually, the Vong were dangerous because a plot device that suddenly made the New Republic super incompetent and the Vong immune to the Force.

So resistant to force plus the star wars characters acted like morons like normal.

Star Wars characters are pretty smart compared to the competence of standard Star Trek characters.

" StarWarsStarTrek "] Also, that's a red herring. The fact that the Vong inflicted over 300 trillion casualties on Star Wars plus a huge amount of homeless people/etc. and yet the Star Wars galaxy is still around speaks volumes about the difference in scale.

The Vong are more a different topic then a red herring. What you describe the Vong having caused is what every ship in trek could do on it's own.

Uh, what? Are you kidding? An entire breen fleet caused about 8 million casualties. The Yuuzhang Vong caused 300 trillion.

Uh, did you watch the PT? What do you think those airspeeders that can make extremely impressive maneuvers and are casual enough for a civilian to own them use? Repulsorlift, which is basically Star Wars for anti-gravity.

Here are my thoughts on the matter.
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... f=8&t=1584

Uh, where does it talk about repulsorlifts?

Not to mention the fact that the Death Star has anti-gravity given that its troops can walk on it in normal gravity, star destroyers would have to have anti gravity to neutralize the gavitational effects of hypermatter, and there are references in the EU to Star Wars ships controlling the gravity on it to make pilots move around faster.

This hyper matter stuff again.>_< The Death Stars, and other craft in Star Wars used fusion.

The same book that you indirectly used as evidence says otherwise.

Do you by any chance have the quotes references in the EU to Star Wars ships controlling the gravity on it to make pilots move around faster?

Star Wars: Death Star, one of the main characters talked about the Death Star keeping the G at lower than usually in order to allow for quick movement in emergencies.

Yet in practice we clearly see Star Wars ships moving at speeds millions of times the speed of light with hyperdrive.

With the use of pre-charted hyper-lanes.

Even without pre charter hyperlanes, Star Wars ships have been shown to move several orders of mangitude faster than Star Trek ships.

Like when Obi Wan was able to travel to a remote planet that was on the outer rim in a matter of hours/days?

1) He is a Jedi. Force users are good at finding the routs that will not kill them.

2) He would have known where the nearest/best known hyper-lanes already were.

1. Complete speculation, since almost no Force user has shown the capability of charting out a plot through tens of thousands of light years while moving at millions of times C.

2. Evidence? It was in the outer rim, hardly a center of galactic trade.

When I have that time, I don't mind the Clone Wars series, although it's a little cheesy.

As are all six of the live action movies.

Uh, what? You aren't going to get all anti Star Wars, are you?

Except that Kamino was unknown to the galaxy, so much that the Jedi Archives didn't even have an entry on it.

Yet someone went there and placed an order for clones. More like someone deleted the information.

Even Jocasta Nu, who Obi Wan stated was one of the most knowledgeable people in the galaxy, did not know about Kamino. Obviously it didn't show up in the holonet either, or else Obi Wan could have gone there. Kamino was practically unknown to the public before the Clone Wars.

Why? What limitations?

Well for one thing hyper-lanes are so narrow you can mine them.

Ok...and?

You can only go in a straightish line.

When using a hyperlane, ok...and?

If there is something like a nebula in you way then you have to hyper around it while the tiny Y-wings go through it, and get to the other side in about the same amount of time.

Maybe for micro hyperjumps, but what is this supposed to prove?

Sun destroying torpedos - only used once

Why would they want to use them? It's not that they can't make them, as they have several ways, but why would they?

To make any hostile races screw off, to take the fight to the borg and blow up their planets.

Time travel - only used a few times, usually by accident

You need to research trek better. The UFP can do it any time they want it. It's how they got the whales after all.

Yet they don't use them to wipe out the borg, or the dominion or any of the other threats they've faced. They typically use it for exploration missions.

Beaming photon torpedos onto another ship - never used iirc

It was done on Voyager, and most of the time the idea would just be a waste of time since the targets shield would already be down.

Thanks for conceding that transporters can't go through shields.

The borg actually sending more than one cube at a time - shows the stupidity of the borg

They do do that if they care enough, but the UFP just doesn't matter enough to them. They seem to test new assimilation methods on the UFP instead of caring about assimilating the UFP.

The borg supposedly have millions of cubes, yet they only send one at a time. It would hardly be a strain on their resources to send 2, especially since they have no known threats other than species 8472.

Warp strafing - rarely used

It's one of those things that is most useful if the other guy can't do it.

Then why didn't the borg use it to warp strafe Earth? Answer: because the borg are morons.

Wide beam setting - rarely used

True, but that is a limitation of the media as opposed to what the writers wanted to do. from what I've read.

Concession accepted.

Basically, a Federation that was actually competent might stand a chance against Star Wars. However, the Federation and other Star Trek factions show a lower level of competence that even G canon imperial stormtroopers.

You are going to have to provide evidence.

The above, plus the Federation's pathetic ground forces.

LOL what? Do you think that gravity is some sort of no limits powerful force? Ever heard of escape velocity? Just because photons are affected by gravity doesn't mean that gravity of any magnitude can stop a laser.

Sorry, I have to go, I will respond to the rest later.

Do you actually believe a photon can escape a black hole? The gravity control in trek is just crazy. Voyager was making black hole to get to other dimensions/universes.

Are you seriously claiming that Star Trek gravity tech is on par with that of a black hole?

[Mith]

Time travel - only used a few times, usually by accident

The UFP can do it any time they want it. It's how they got the whales after all.

Well, in addition to Star Trek: The Voyage Home, let's not also forget "Assignment: Earth" where the E-1701 deliberately went back in time to observe events in 1968, which is how they got caught up with Gary Seven.

Then there's the rather scary routine time-space travel abilities of the 29th and 31st century Federation with actual timeships, and the ability to beam people anywhere in the Milky Way galaxy at any time as seen in "Future's End", "Relativity" and much of ST:ENT. The 23rd and 24th century do have the ability.
-Mike

Just as clarification, Daniels didn't use temporal transporters, but temporal portals to do his time travel stuff. He could not only move people around in time, but also space. Such as with Archer on Enterprise, even when they're many light years away to Earth (future and the past).

Interestingly enough, we see that Daniels had something similar to a portal, if not an actual portal in Shockwave part 2, where they sucker a Suliban into opening the portal for Archer. All in all, it was a fairly small device for what it did.

[Praeothmin]

Hmmm...ok, but again, there would be different versions of the Acclamator, especially since the First Battle of Geonosis was the first battle of the Clone Wars and the Clone Army had to rush there.

As you are so fond of saying: Source?
Because all the images we have or have seen from the higher Canon show Acclamators without guns, so they prove the ICS is wring, especially since it does not state “model Y Acclamator has guns”, or even that there are multiple types of Acclamators…

However, in many of sources ships are destroyed without warning and suddenly, which would not have happened if the turbolasers weren't in the gigatons.

No, it just shows the ships aren’t that tough…

And there is plenty of evidence that they do.

Source?
Can you provide that evidence?

Yet if the Germans had a theater shield, the Allies obviously wouldn't be able to do that.

Looking at the Allies ICS book, it does not give them GT weapons, so obviously, they couldn’t have done it, but anyone who had GT weapons could…

The droid army was over a million in that battle.

Source?
And btw, 10 1KT shots would destroy an area of 2463008.6404144 m2.
That’s just for assured casualties, but the actual blast would go even farther…
So while the Jedi in the arena, a few km from the battlefield, would have been safe, the Droid army would have been badly wrecked…

Um, since when was it claimed that CIS ships could take gigatons without shields?

Let me get this straight: you expect us to believe that ships that can get destroyed by very low sub-KT blasts, can fire GT shots?
And btw, these walkers on the asteroids were dealing as much damage to the CIS ships than the Venators were in RotS when firing on unshielded CIS ships…
Look at the blasts and damage done to CIS ships in TCW episode, and look at the blasts and damage done in RotS: pretty much the same…

This is further supported by the earlier example of a 33% power superlaser blowing up a planet in 3 bursts

Nope, the first shot at 33% power merely incinerated a continent, but did not even crack the crust of the planet…
And here’s the description again:

At full charge, the hyper-matter reactor provided a superluminal "boost" that caused much of the planet's mass to be shifted immediately into hyperspace. As a result, Alderaan exploded into a fiery ball of eye-smiting light almost instantaneously, and a planar ring of energy reflux-the "shadow" of a hyperspatial ripple-spread rapidly outward.

How you can read DET in that, and not chain-reaction, is beyond me. The Hyper-reactor created a rift in Hyperspace and that had the effect of “pushing” the planet in Hyperspace, thus the energy from the beam and that Hyperspace rift destroyed the planet…

But they can still used hyperspace like that, which is STILL far faster than warp drive.

Prove it!

Except that it isn't specified how large the staff was or what grade durasteal it was, and one can bend a steel staff if it's thin enough.

Yeah, why don’t you try bending a steel rod 1 inch think for the fun of it?
If Deurasteel was as tough as you want it to be, Daala’s staff would need to be pencil-thin in order for her to do what she’s doing…

Star Wars characters are pretty smart compared to the competence of standard Star Trek characters.

Really?
Elite troops that can’t shoot straight, Rebel pilots that are so dumb that they do not fire on the approaching fighters attacking their friends from behind, or pilots that are too dumb to understand that they should have flown directly above the shaft of the DS and shot it vertically, AT-ST pilots so dumb that instead of shooting the Ewok hanging in front of the viewscreen, he opens the cockpit door to the vehicule, thus allowing an enemy to take it over, etc, etc, etc…