Impulse vs. Warp

[Praeothmin]

I explained that already:

A rolling wheel requires energy too, but the wheel conserves that energy; in the same manner, the warp-bubble conserves the energy of the warp-engine.

The ship's warp-core creates the warp-bubble by cominbing matter and anti-matter in a magnetic bottle; likewise, the ship drops out of warp by separating the energy in the warp-core back into matter and anti-matter.

No, you didn't explain anything, you claimed that the ship creates the Warp Bubble by combining M/AM (which usually results in energy), but you never explained the mechanism of Warp travel.
You never explained how the resulting energy of the combined M/AM reaction is used to create the Warp Bubble.
You never explained how, once you're at Warp, the ship retains its energy and how it uses none to remain in Warp.
You never explained how your wheel analogy even closely relates here, instead just spouting the First Law of Thermodynamics without ever explaining how.
And your only cop out when asked to explain these things is to say :"Well if you don't understand it's not my problem!".
Why, yes it is your problem, because all we see are a load of claims that are never explained at all, but are stated as fact by you.
You have not explained how the Federation can indeed re-create the M/AM lost during the initial Warp Bubble creation.
When the bubble is created, that energy is lost, spent, gone, so if they even had a way to re-create their M/AM stores, they'd need to spend more energy to exchange for the lost matter, because as you stated, E = mc^2.
You even state:

Obviously, there's a limit to how long they can sustain warp above a certain level, since the elasticity of space does provide some resistance to the warp-bubble; that's why the ship can only travel at limited speeds.

So in other words, while in subspace, the Warp Bubble needs to be kept by continuous use of power created by the annihilation of M/AM in order to fight the "resistance" it encounters.
So please, enlighten us all and explain how, in this magical ST world of yours, they can then "separate" components that no longer exist, or re-create the used M/AM with no loss of energy?

To go to warp, yes, but not to stay there. Going to warp requires converting matter to energy, but that doen't mean they have to keep on producing that energy- or that it is expended and can't be regenerated into matter.

So you keep saying, but, as you accuse me of doing, you fail to provide evidence of this every time.
Every time, in TOS, in TNG, in Voyager, they had to take power away from the Warp Core, they were either slowing down at Warp, or directly dropping out of it.
This directly infers the necessity to continually use power to sustain the Warp Bubble, and that it's not an "energy-free" operation even to maintain.

That's because Voyager was damaged in the pilot-episode! If you don't konw that, you don't know beans about what you're talking about.

Yes it was, but it seems you're the one who doesn't know the premise of the show, because we never hear about how the damage to the engines or the Warp core is depriving them of avaialble energy, but they directly state that their energy reserves are low.
It has nothing to do with damage they repair every darn time, so well in fact, that the ship is in pristine order every darn show...

You can't be serious-- you pose the null-hypothesis they'd be at today's level of solar-energy tech, and call it an "unproven assumption" to claim otherwise?

I didn't say they were at today's level, it seems you can't comprehend simple analogie.
What I said was that, today, solar collectors are not super efficient compared to all other means of energy generation we have, and I really fail to see how, in interstellar travel, they could generate more power then a M/AM reactor.

Wrong again-- YOU provided nothing, since providing "The Voyager series" is providing nothing, particularly when you don't even know the initial basis of the series itself, i.e. that the ship's powerplant was damaged in the pilot-episode!

I think it's quite clear you're the one who know nothing of Voyager, or even have a clue about how they could recover the lost M/AM components or the nergy spent for Warp travel.
The Voyager series itself proves, all through the series, that they needed to find new sources of energy, more the new parts for the engines or Warp Core...

[KirkSkyWalker]

I explained that already:

A rolling wheel requires energy too, but the wheel conserves that energy; in the same manner, the warp-bubble conserves the energy of the warp-engine.
The ship's warp-core creates the warp-bubble by cominbing matter and anti-matter in a magnetic bottle; likewise, the ship drops out of warp by separating the energy in the warp-core back into matter and anti-matter.

.

No, you didn't explain anything, you claimed that the ship creates the Warp Bubble by combining M/AM (which usually results in energy), but you never explained the mechanism of Warp travel.
You never explained how the resulting energy of the combined M/AM reaction is used to create the Warp Bubble.
You never explained how, once you're at Warp, the ship retains its energy and how it uses none to remain in Warp.
You never explained how your wheel analogy even closely relates here, instead just spouting the First Law of Thermodynamics without ever explaining how.
You have not explained how the Federation can indeed re-create the M/AM lost during the initial Warp Bubble creation.

I'm not going to waste my time, and spam up the board, looking up and proving what I said and didn't say-- just because you didn't see or remember it. It's also not my job to teach you everything that you should know for yourself, or be able to look up if you don't know-- like the term "DAFS."

And your only cop out when asked to explain these things is to say :"Well if you don't understand it's not my problem!".

Again, it's not my job to teach you basic things-- like high school physics; if you haven't graduated high school already, then you have no place debating Trek-science anyway.
This isn't "Physics for dummies," and even Confucius said that an amateur can ask more questions in 10 minutes than an expert can answer in 10 years.
Just because you don't understand an explanation, doesn't mean I haven't given it. I explained it very thoroughly how the Bussard collectors fuse free hydrogen to furnish the energy to replenish anti-matter supplies. How it replenishes the anti-matter supplies is irrelevant, since that's part of the canon and not relevant to the discussion.

When the bubble is created, that energy is lost, spent, gone,

Gone where? Again, you're denying the First Law of Thermodyamics. The Warp-bubble "stretches" the ship in warp-space relative to N-space, so when it's returned to normal then so is the energy returned to its solid-state of matter and anti-matter.

so if they even had a way to re-create their M/AM stores, they'd need to spend more energy to exchange for the lost matter, because as you stated, E = mc^2.

However I never said that energy could be created or destroyed.

You even state:

Obviously, there's a limit to how long they can sustain warp above a certain level, since the elasticity of space does provide some resistance to the warp-bubble; that's why the ship can only travel at limited speeds.

So in other words, while in subspace, the Warp Bubble needs to be kept by continuous use of power created by the annihilation of M/AM in order to fight the "resistance" it encounters.

Yes, but there's the "Bussard ramjet" principle at work; the faster the ship moves, the faster it runs into free hydrogen to fuel the warp-engines. Above a certain level, however, the inelasticity of space exceeds the ability of the ship to do this-- and we don't know what that level is

So please, enlighten us all and explain how, in this magical ST world of yours, they can then "separate" components that no longer exist, or re-create the used M/AM with no loss of energy?

I already did: the same way that they replenish the anti-matter stores using energy from the bussard-collectors. Again, that's already been established as part of the canon, and so I don't need to explain it. E=MC^2 is simply the conversion-ratio.

To go to warp, yes, but not to stay there. Going to warp requires converting matter to energy, but that doen't mean they have to keep on producing that energy- or that it is expended and can't be regenerated into matter.

So you keep saying, but, as you accuse me of doing, you fail to provide evidence of this every time.

Yes I do, every time-- the ship's antimatter-replenishment mechanism is all the evidence required. In order to replenish anti-matter, they need energy from an outside source, and they convert it to anti-matter. And if they can replenish anti-matter from outside energy, then therefore they can alsodo it from the energy in the warp-bubble as well, the same way. Easy peasy!

Every time, in TOS, in TNG, in Voyager, they had to take power away from the Warp Core, they were either slowing down at Warp, or directly dropping out of it. This directly infers the necessity to continually use power to sustain the Warp Bubble, and that it's not an "energy-free" operation even to maintain.

More like the engines can't sustain the warp-bubble, and produce energy for other purposes, at the same time-- particularly since the powerplant was damaged, so they had to ration and allocate power more carefully. Simply put, the ship no longer had all the power it needed, so they had to make sacrifices.

That's because Voyager was damaged in the pilot-episode! If you don't konw that, you don't know beans about what you're talking about.

Yes it was, but it seems you're the one who doesn't know the premise of the show, because we never hear about how the damage to the engines or the Warp core is depriving them of avaialble energy, but they directly state that their energy reserves are low.

We heard about it all the time, it's clear that you simply have selective attention. They can't even run the food-replicators, that's why they have to eat Neelix's disgusting food.

It has nothing to do with damage they repair every darn time, so well in fact, that the ship is in pristine order every darn show...

No, it has everything to do with it; eventually, the show conveniently forgot about this original premise of damage to the ship-- just like they eventually forgot about damage sustained to the ship every episode, and how it gets magically repaired without any explanation whatsoever.

You can't be serious-- you pose the null-hypothesis they'd be at today's level of solar-energy tech, and call it an "unproven assumption" to claim otherwise?

I didn't say they were at today's level, it seems you can't comprehend simple analogie.

You can't comprehend an anachronism, by which your "analogie" was non-sequitur.

What I said was that, today, solar collectors are not super efficient compared to all other means of energy generation we have, and I really fail to see how, in interstellar travel, they could generate more power then a M/AM reactor.

I didn't say they could-- I was obviously talking about replenishing the ship's anti-matter.

Wrong again-- YOU provided nothing, since providing "The Voyager series" is providing nothing, particularly when you don't even know the initial basis of the series itself, i.e. that the ship's powerplant was damaged in the pilot-episode!

I think it's quite clear you're the one who know nothing of Voyager, or even have a clue about how they could recover the lost M/AM components or the nergy spent for Warp travelquote]
The Voyager series itself proves, all through the series, that they needed to find new sources of energy, more the new parts for the engines or Warp Core...

Gee, maybe the ship-damage had something to do with that as well? If it couldn't produce as much energy, then obviously it couldn't replenish the anti-matter as much, either.

[Praeothmin]

It's also not my job to teach you everything that you should know for yourself, or be able to look up if you don't know

No, but it's your job to provide evidence for your claims.
By your calims, and by saying the first law of Thermodynamics apply here, you are inferring that the energy expenditure for Warp travel is a closed system, which you never provide any proof of.
Your "theory":
-Going to Warp requires X amount of energy;
-Staying in Warp requires X + Y amount of energy;
-Why must that energy be maintained, where does it go? No answers;
-Going out of Warp, all the energy used for Warp magically returns and we can use it to re-create M/AM reserves...
-Even though concentration of Hydrogen atoms in the universe per square inch isn't that high, they can instantly, or almost instantly, recover enough Hydrogen to replenish their entire supply simply from the Bussard collectors, for which, again, I have failed to provide evidence of...

How is the Warp bubble creation and destruction a closed system? No answer.
Where does the original Warp Bubble energy go after creation? No answer.
Where does the Warp Bubble maintinaing energy go during Warp travel, or the increased energy demand for higher speeds go? No answer.
How does going out of Warp magically re-create all the spent energy and make it available for Hydrogen fusing and M/AM re-creation? No answer.
How much Hydrogen can the Bussards collect, and how much M/AM reserves can be created from what is collected, and how much energy does it require? NO ANSWER.

See, your entire theory is nothing but a list of unanswered questions...

like high school physics; if you haven't graduated high school already, then you have no place debating Trek-science anyway.

Except when trying to create a failed theory about magically repleneshing energy reserves, we're wayyyyyy past high-school physics...

Just because you don't understand an explanation, doesn't mean I haven't given it. I explained it very thoroughly how the Bussard collectors fuse free hydrogen to furnish the energy to replenish anti-matter supplies. How it replenishes the anti-matter supplies is irrelevant, since that's part of the canon and not relevant to the discussion.

Oh yes, you explained very thoroughly how they can use fusion from the Hydrogen atoms to gain the energy for M/AM replenishment.
What you failed every single time to explain is where they get the raw matter to create their M/AM reserves, or even how much energy they can create from "free-floating" Hydrogen atoms in space. How much energy can one create from fusing the Hydrogen atoms of 2 cubic meters?

Gone where? Again, you're denying the First Law of Thermodyamics. The Warp-bubble "stretches" the ship in warp-space relative to N-space, so when it's returned to normal then so is the energy returned to its solid-state of matter and anti-matter

So let me get this straight:
Again, when the ship creates the Warp bubble, it uses energy that goes... Nowhere?
And so this energy comes back from nowhere when the ship drops out of Warp?
And you don't even see the problem with this?

Yes, but there's the "Bussard ramjet" principle at work; the faster the ship moves, the faster it runs into free hydrogen to fuel the warp-engines. Above a certain level, however, the inelasticity of space exceeds the ability of the ship to do this-- and we don't know what that level is

In fact, we don't even know that they do capture enough Hydrogen to create the necessary energy to replenish their M/AM reserves...
Voyager needing to find new energy sources, not engine parts, means that they can't...

We heard about it all the time, it's clear that you simply have selective attention. They can't even run the food-replicators, that's why they have to eat Neelix's disgusting food.

And here we see YOU are the one with an attention issue.
Janeway was using the replicator for coffee after the incident, and they had replicator rations to limit, not forbid, replicator usage, specifically because, as Chakotay put, to compensate for the enrgy shortage, NOT the engine damage.

No, it has everything to do with it; eventually, the show conveniently forgot about this original premise of damage to the ship-- just like they eventually forgot about damage sustained to the ship every episode, and how it gets magically repaired without any explanation whatsoever.

Just as the Bussard collectors ar canon, so is the fact that Voyager was always repaired and in top shape after each show, except for the energy issue...

Gee, maybe the ship-damage had something to do with that as well? If it couldn't produce as much energy, then obviously it couldn't replenish the anti-matter as much, either

Gee, too bad the show always specifically mentioned the problem was their energy reserves were now and never ONCE mentioned that their Bussard collectors or M/AM creator was damaged...

[Mr. Oragahn]

Mind you, it's possible that with the Intrepid-class, they didn't include the AM regenerator.
What was the role of a Intrepid-class? How long was it meant to fly, and where?

[Mike DiCenso]

We have seen in "Demon" and "The Haunting of Deck Twelve" that the ship can refuel itself through the bussard ramscoops and other means, so it presumably has AM replenishment capabilties by bringing onboard deuterium, then spin reversing the charge to make more antimatter. The role of the Intrepid class was to be a long range scout as I recall, so this makes some sense, though in "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges", we see the USS Bellerophon acting as a fast diplomatic courier to Romulus.
-Mike

[The Dude]

Well, one would expect a scout to be fast so thats OK. I bet the Rommies didn't want a Galaxy in orbit anyways.

[KirkSkyWalker]

It's also not my job to teach you everything that you should know for yourself, or be able to look up if you don't know

No, but it's your job to provide evidence for your claims.

But not to teach you the entire canon, just because you're ignorant of it.

By your calims, and by saying the first law of Thermodynamics apply here,

Like Scotty says, "Ya canna change the laws of physics!"

you are inferring that the energy expenditure for Warp travel is a closed system, which you never provide any proof of.
Your "theory":
-Going to Warp requires X amount of energy;
-Staying in Warp requires X + Y amount of energy;
-Why must that energy be maintained, where does it go? No answers;

It's called ENTROPY, i.e. the ship's subspace "wake;" and it is absorbed into subspace ala the "warp-signature." by creating subspace "ripples" into inertia.

-Going out of Warp, all the energy used for Warp magically returns and we can use it to re-create M/AM reserves...

-Even though concentration of Hydrogen atoms in the universe per square inch isn't that high, they can instantly, or almost instantly, recover enough Hydrogen to replenish their entire supply simply from the Bussard collectors, for which, again, I have failed to provide evidence of...

I already showed the figures; and the faster a ship moves at warp, the faster it can fuse the Hydrogen particles for theri energy.

How is the Warp bubble creation and destruction a closed system? No answer.

I don't have to answer it, it's in the canon.

Where does the original Warp Bubble energy go after creation? No answer.

Back into matter and anti-matter.

Where does the Warp Bubble maintinaing energy go during Warp travel, or the increased energy demand for higher speeds go? No answer.

Again: ENTROPY.

How does going out of Warp magically re-create all the spent energy and make it available for Hydrogen fusing and M/AM re-creation? No answer.

It doesn't, only the energy expended in creating the warp-bubble initially-- I explained that already.

How much Hydrogen can the Bussards collect, and how much M/AM reserves can be created from what is collected, and how much energy does it require? NO ANSWER.

Obviously it collects at least as much as it requires, when it's working properly at standard speed.That's one reason that the ship can only travel so far at maximum warp, i.e. it can't collect as much energy as it requires.

See, your entire theory is nothing but a list of unanswered questions...

Again, as Confucius said: "a fool can ask more questions in ten minutes, than a wise man can answer in ten years."
And you're proving it right here.

like high school physics; if you haven't graduated high school already, then you have no place debating Trek-science anyway.

Except when trying to create a failed theory about magically repleneshing energy reserves, we're wayyyyyy past high-school physics...

That's CANON, i.e. the canon states that anti-matter can be replenished by itself. The first law of thermodyamics, meanwhile, is standard high-school physics.

Just because you don't understand an explanation, doesn't mean I haven't given it. I explained it very thoroughly how the Bussard collectors fuse free hydrogen to furnish the energy to replenish anti-matter supplies. How it replenishes the anti-matter supplies is irrelevant, since that's part of the canon and not relevant to the discussion.

Oh yes, you explained very thoroughly how they can use fusion from the Hydrogen atoms to gain the energy for M/AM replenishment.
What you failed every single time to explain is where they get the raw matter to create their M/AM reserves, or even how much energy they can create from "free-floating" Hydrogen atoms in space. How much energy can one create from fusing the Hydrogen atoms of 2 cubic meters?

No idea. but if the ship's moving through space at the rate of 300 billion meters/second (warp 8), I'd say quite a bit-- particularly since the deflector-field can extend for hundreds of miles in each direction.

As for the "raw matter," again we go back to E=MC^2, by which energy can be converted to matter and anti-matter.

Gone where? Again, you're denying the First Law of Thermodyamics. The Warp-bubble "stretches" the ship in warp-space relative to N-space, so when it's returned to normal then so is the energy returned to its solid-state of matter and anti-matter

So let me get this straight:
Again, when the ship creates the Warp bubble, it uses energy that goes... Nowhere?
And so this energy comes back from nowhere when the ship drops out of Warp?
And you don't even see the problem with this?

Sure I do, but those are your words.
When you blow up a baloon, that takes energy, right?
And when you let the air out, that energy comes back out, forcing the air out under pressure, right?
It's the same with creating a warp-bubble.

This is typical audacity, i.e. you demanding that I spoonfeed you the facts of the canon so that you can understand them, or else you reject them as "absurd."

And here we see YOU are the one with an attention issue.
Janeway was using the replicator for coffee after the incident, and they had replicator rations to limit, not forbid, replicator usage, specifically because, as Chakotay put, to compensate for the enrgy shortage, NOT the engine damage.

I never said the engines were damaged, or that they were completely unable to run the food-replicators. I said Voyager itself was damaged.

Just as the Bussard collectors ar canon, so is the fact that Voyager was always repaired and in top shape after each show, except for the energy issue.

..

Gee, maybe the ship-damage had something to do with that as well? If it couldn't produce as much energy, then obviously it couldn't replenish the anti-matter as much, either

Gee, too bad the show always specifically mentioned the problem was their energy reserves were now and never ONCE mentioned that their Bussard collectors or M/AM creator was damaged...

What do you think creates the energy-reserves? Now you're the one claiming that they magically appear out of nowhere.

And that's enough with your pesky questions.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Making repeated appeals to canon and scientific principles without ever showing how they support your claims is certainly not the way to go.
When asked to establish the evidence, the links, you dismiss the requests by insulting people's intelligence, you call them ignorant of the "canon" and you pretty much dodge everything that way.
Let's just see how you operate. Let me also tell you that if you actually want to maintain a semblence of civil debate, you may want to change your methods radically.

It's also not my job to teach you everything that you should know for yourself, or be able to look up if you don't know

No, but it's your job to provide evidence for your claims.

But not to teach you the entire canon, just because you're ignorant of it.

Still waiting for evidence from the canon. You make the claim, you provide evidence for it. We haven't seen any. If you think you already brought evidence, then bring it again, or precisely point to which section of a given post you think you provided said evidence.

By your calims, and by saying the first law of Thermodynamics apply here,

Like Scotty says, "Ya canna change the laws of physics!"

We're looking for a logical and substantiated explanation of your claim, not a repeated appeal to physics law like if they automatically made you right without having to show why.

you are inferring that the energy expenditure for Warp travel is a closed system, which you never provide any proof of.
Your "theory":
-Going to Warp requires X amount of energy;
-Staying in Warp requires X + Y amount of energy;
-Why must that energy be maintained, where does it go? No answers;

It's called ENTROPY, i.e. the ship's subspace "wake;" and it is absorbed into subspace ala the "warp-signature." by creating subspace "ripples" into inertia.

No. What is asked is evidence that the warp-bubble system is not leaking in some way, despite the facts provided here, including lately by Mike and Kor, proving that power is constantly needed.
Adding another pile of complication is not proof.

-Going out of Warp, all the energy used for Warp magically returns and we can use it to re-create M/AM reserves...

-Even though concentration of Hydrogen atoms in the universe per square inch isn't that high, they can instantly, or almost instantly, recover enough Hydrogen to replenish their entire supply simply from the Bussard collectors, for which, again, I have failed to provide evidence of...

I already showed the figures; and the faster a ship moves at warp, the faster it can fuse the Hydrogen particles for theri energy.

This is about the only figure you provided. It's actually on page 3 that you give the speed figure for warp 8 that you used: 300 billion meters/second (warp 8).
3 e14 cm/s.
With 10 particles per cubic centimeter, this would actually turn to be 3 e15 particles/second.

Say it's plain hydrogen, with an atomic mass of 1.007825 u, or 1.67353249796915 e-27 kg/particle.
With 3 e15 particles/sec, you get around 5 e-12 kg/sec, if the ramscoop area consisted of only one square centimeter.

Say the projected ramscoop-field area is a circle with a diameter of 200 m, for the Intrepid.
The surface area is 3.1416 e8 cm².

You'd collect about 9.4248 e23 particles/sec, for a mass of 1.5773 g/sec.

The E-D would gather more matter, with a cross section disc 500 meters wide, with a surface area of 1.9635 e9 cm².
6.25 times superior to the Intrepid's, and thus a scooping rate of 9.858125 g/s.

Cool, over one hour at warp 8 (only that), you'll have collected enough particles to obtain about a couple hundreds of terajoules of energy, assuming everything goes well and that scooping will of course work as advertised (by you).

How is the Warp bubble creation and destruction a closed system? No answer.

I don't have to answer it, it's in the canon.

Still waiting for evidence from the canon. You make the claim, you provide evidence for it. We haven't seen any. If you think you already brought evidence, then bring it again, or precisely point to which section of a given post you think you provided said evidence.

Where does the original Warp Bubble energy go after creation? No answer.

Back into matter and anti-matter.

Still waiting for evidence from the canon. You make the claim, you provide evidence for it. We haven't seen any. If you think you already brought evidence, then bring it again, or precisely point to which section of a given post you think you provided said evidence.

Where does the Warp Bubble maintinaing energy go during Warp travel, or the increased energy demand for higher speeds go? No answer.

Again: ENTROPY.

It's not a magic word. Where is the proof that the warp-bubble is isolated?
Where is the proof that this isolation is a property supported by canon?
Still waiting for evidence from the canon. You make the claim, you provide evidence for it. We haven't seen any. If you think you already brought evidence, then bring it again, or precisely point to which section of a given post you think you provided said evidence.

How does going out of Warp magically re-create all the spent energy and make it available for Hydrogen fusing and M/AM re-creation? No answer.

It doesn't, only the energy expended in creating the warp-bubble initially-- I explained that already.

An explanation of your idea is one thing. The analogies are good and all that, but that's not the problem.
The problem is showing that is actually applies to Trek.
So...
Still waiting for evidence from the canon. You make the claim, you provide evidence for it. We haven't seen any. If you think you already brought evidence, then bring it again, or precisely point to which section of a given post you think you provided said evidence.

How much Hydrogen can the Bussards collect, and how much M/AM reserves can be created from what is collected, and how much energy does it require? NO ANSWER.

Obviously it collects at least as much as it requires, when it's working properly at standard speed.That's one reason that the ship can only travel so far at maximum warp, i.e. it can't collect as much energy as it requires.

That's just a very messy statement.
Please explain and quantify "as much as it requires"...
Why can the ship "only travel so far at maximum warp"?

See, your entire theory is nothing but a list of unanswered questions...

Again, as Confucius said: "a fool can ask more questions in ten minutes, than a wise man can answer in ten years."
And you're proving it right here.

You're yet a far distance from the minmum wisdom necessary to have the right to quote Confucius.

like high school physics; if you haven't graduated high school already, then you have no place debating Trek-science anyway.

Except when trying to create a failed theory about magically repleneshing energy reserves, we're wayyyyyy past high-school physics...

That's CANON, i.e. the canon states that anti-matter can be replenished by itself. The first law of thermodyamics, meanwhile, is standard high-school physics.

No. Canon only says that they can resplenish antimatter at a certain rate that's not established, and we know that in later Trek that energy is not exactly so easily free to pick and easy to come by.
You have not succeeded in showing that canon supports your idea that Trek tech can recreate elements from the energy produced in the warp core.

Just because you don't understand an explanation, doesn't mean I haven't given it. I explained it very thoroughly how the Bussard collectors fuse free hydrogen to furnish the energy to replenish anti-matter supplies. How it replenishes the anti-matter supplies is irrelevant, since that's part of the canon and not relevant to the discussion.

Oh yes, you explained very thoroughly how they can use fusion from the Hydrogen atoms to gain the energy for M/AM replenishment.
What you failed every single time to explain is where they get the raw matter to create their M/AM reserves, or even how much energy they can create from "free-floating" Hydrogen atoms in space. How much energy can one create from fusing the Hydrogen atoms of 2 cubic meters?

No idea. but if the ship's moving through space at the rate of 300 billion meters/second (warp 8), I'd say quite a bit-- particularly since the deflector-field can extend for hundreds of miles in each direction.

No idea? It's rather odd that you have no idea about that considering how knowing how much energy they can obtain pretty much defines if your system would even begin to work.
You should actually have a very good idea, some figures to go by. Now, I provided a few above. Let me know if you agree with them or not.

As for the "raw matter," again we go back to E=MC^2, by which energy can be converted to matter and anti-matter.

Yeah well can they do that? Transporters (which replicators are issued from) only recombine pre-existing matter.

Gone where? Again, you're denying the First Law of Thermodyamics. The Warp-bubble "stretches" the ship in warp-space relative to N-space, so when it's returned to normal then so is the energy returned to its solid-state of matter and anti-matter

So let me get this straight:
Again, when the ship creates the Warp bubble, it uses energy that goes... Nowhere?
And so this energy comes back from nowhere when the ship drops out of Warp?
And you don't even see the problem with this?

Sure I do, but those are your words.
When you blow up a baloon, that takes energy, right?
And when you let the air out, that energy comes back out, forcing the air out under pressure, right?
It's the same with creating a warp-bubble.
This is typical audacity, i.e. you demanding that I spoonfeed you the facts of the canon so that you can understand them, or else you reject them as "absurd."

Still waiting for evidence from the canon. You make the claim, you provide evidence for it. We haven't seen any. If you think you already brought evidence, then bring it again, or precisely point to which section of a given post you think you provided said evidence.

And here we see YOU are the one with an attention issue.
Janeway was using the replicator for coffee after the incident, and they had replicator rations to limit, not forbid, replicator usage, specifically because, as Chakotay put, to compensate for the enrgy shortage, NOT the engine damage.

I never said the engines were damaged, or that they were completely unable to run the food-replicators. I said Voyager itself was damaged.

Did you provide evidence that this damage was clearly related to our topic about warp and power?

Gee, maybe the ship-damage had something to do with that as well? If it couldn't produce as much energy, then obviously it couldn't replenish the anti-matter as much, either

Gee, too bad the show always specifically mentioned the problem was their energy reserves were now and never ONCE mentioned that their Bussard collectors or M/AM creator was damaged...

What do you think creates the energy-reserves? Now you're the one claiming that they magically appear out of nowhere.

And that's enough with your pesky questions.

Perhaps the Intrepid didn't have this AM regeneration system onboard?
Proving that it was present would be a good start imho.

[Praeothmin]

Again, and as Mr. Oragahn had so clearly stated, you have provided ZERO evidence for your claims, and keep ignoring points other people bring that imply the opposite of your claims.
Either provide solid evidence or solid proof of your claims, in writing, without the snarky remarks, or conceed that your theory doesn't work...

[KirkSkyWalker]

Making repeated appeals to canon and scientific principles without ever showing how they support your claims is certainly not the way to go.
When asked to establish the evidence, the links, you dismiss the requests by insulting people's intelligence, you call them ignorant of the "canon" and you pretty much dodge everything that way.
Let's just see how you operate. Let me also tell you that if you actually want to maintain a semblence of civil debate, you may want to change your methods radically.

Nope; he asked for the specifics on the exact mechanics of exactly how the energy was converted to matter and anti-matter from the warp-bubble, in order to prove that this is what happens; obviously this is irrelevant, if the canon establishes that it’s already done for something else.
In short, the canon doesn’t explain exactly how it’s done, but they don’t have to; all that matters is the principle, that they show (or state) that they’re capable of doing.
If you can’t figure that out, you’ll never know.

Still waiting for evidence from the canon.

I already gave it: anti-matter replenishment from energy. This requires the ability to convert energy to anti-matter—as I stated about 12 times, it’s the principle behind E=MC^2.
(NOTE: In Star Trek, E=MC^2 is more about the principle of mass-energy conversion, rather than an actual ratio—more on that below).

By your calims, and by saying the first law of Thermodynamics apply here,

We're looking for a logical and substantiated explanation of your claim, not a repeated appeal to physics law like if they automatically made you right without having to show why.

I explained that too: you can’t get energy from nowhere, and you can’t make energy disappear into nowhere.

It's called ENTROPY, i.e. the ship's subspace "wake;" and it is absorbed into subspace ala the "warp-signature." by creating subspace "ripples" into inertia.

No. What is asked is evidence that the warp-bubble system is not leaking in some way, despite the facts provided here, including lately by Mike and Kor, proving that power is constantly needed.
Adding another pile of complication is not proof.

That was never a question, so it isn’t needed to explain it. Obviously they fill it fast as it leaks, as proven by the fact that they can maintain a stable warp-speed.

This is about the only figure you provided. It's actually on page 3 that you give the speed figure for warp 8 that you used: 300 billion meters/second (warp 8).
3 e14 cm/s.
With 10 particles per cubic centimeter, this would actually turn to be 3 e15 particles/second.

Per square centimeter. I also stated that the collection-field could be any size—even billions of square centimeters; if the field was 100 kilometers square (fairly small for a Bussard Ramjet), then this would be 10 billion square centimeters, providing 3E+25 particles/second—i.e. 50 mols of hydrogen/second. And the field could be even bigger.

How is the Warp bubble creation and destruction a closed system? No answer.

I don't have to answer it, it's in the canon.

Still waiting for evidence from the canon.

If you still have to ask, you’ll never know. Obviously when the ship’s at warp, it has a full-sized warp-bubble, right?

So when it comes out of warp into normal space, the warp-bubble goes from full-sized, to non-existent in about 2 seconds.

So where does that energy go? You’re failing to account for it— meanwhile I’m stating the obvious fact that that it clearly goes back to matter and antimatter, by simply reversing the process by which they created the bubble in the first place by combining matter and anti-matter—and using the same mechanical process by which they create anti-matter from energy (above).

That’s canon right there, simply extrapolated to a logical conclusion—i.e. if they can convert energy to ant-matter for replenishment-purposes, then that’s canonical precedent that they can reverse the process; and therefore, they can do it for converting warp-bubble energy to anti-matter as well.

Where does the Warp Bubble maintinaing energy go during Warp travel, or the increased energy demand for higher speeds go? No answer.

Again: ENTROPY.

It's not a magic word. Where is the proof that the warp-bubble is isolated?

It is magic if you don’t understand it, which you clearly don’t; the word “entropy” would suggest that it’s not isolated.

Why can the ship "only travel so far at maximum warp"?

Not sure; we just know from the canon, that emergency-warp speed can damage the ship if sustained for too long. However, we haven’t seen any examples of a fully-functioning starship running out of fuel from going too fast, AFAIK.

See, your entire theory is nothing but a list of unanswered questions...

Again, as Confucius said: "a fool can ask more questions in ten minutes, than a wise man can answer in ten years."
And you're proving it right here.

You're yet a far distance from the minmum wisdom necessary to have the right to quote Confucius.

I am compared to you, who’s been wrong on every point so far, while I’ve been right—and after:

the canon states that anti-matter can be replenished by itself. The first law of thermodyamics, meanwhile, is standard high-school physics.

No. Canon only says that they can resplenish antimatter at a certain rate that's not established, and we know that in later Trek that energy is not exactly so easily free to pick and easy to come by.

Where in “later Trek,” has an undamaged ship ever run short on fuel-reserves?

Oh yes, you explained very thoroughly how they can use fusion from the Hydrogen atoms to gain the energy for M/AM replenishment.
What you failed every single time to explain is where they get the raw matter to create their M/AM reserves, or even how much energy they can create from "free-floating" Hydrogen atoms in space. How much energy can one create from fusing the Hydrogen atoms of 2 cubic meters?

No idea. but if the ship's moving through space at the rate of 300 billion meters/second (warp 8), I'd say quite a bit-- particularly since the deflector-field can extend for hundreds of miles in each direction.

No idea? It's rather odd that you have no idea about that considering how knowing how much energy they can obtain pretty much defines if your system would even begin to work.
You should actually have a very good idea, some figures to go by. Now, I provided a few above. Let me know if you agree with them or not.

I have no idea, because we know from canon that Star Trek anti-matter packs HELLA more energy than the standard E=MC^2 (e.g. “Obsession” stated that an ounce of Star Trek anti-matter is enough to rip away half of an earth-sized planet’s atmosphere); so it’s possible that they could be getting hella more than the standard amount from fusion as well.

We also don’t know how much energy-input the ship needs to maintain a constant warp-speed—or to jump to it-- so it’s really irrelevant how much they can get; obviously, it’s enough to get them places.

However in TNG "The Icarus Factor," Riker claims that it would take months at high warp to get from the current location of the Enterprise to the Vega-Omicron sector, on the far side of Federation territory; so that gives you some idea that they generally don’t need to stop for fuel—nor have we ever seen a ship doing such in Star Trek with an undamaged ship; so it’s safe to assume that it isn’t done (or more accurately, there’s no canonical evidence to suggest that it is done).

[Picard]

To put it straight...

Warp drive needs constatnt power input from warp core, both to achieve and to maintain particular warp speed.

However, less energy is required to maintain constant warp 9 than to accelerate from warp 8 to warp 9. Graph is here. Only warp core can provide enough energy to accelerate ship past lightspeed. While it is possible to reach warp by using impulse drive (or at least was during TOS), such "operation" is not very energy-efficient.

Bussard collectors obviously have ability to partially refuel ship during both warp and impulse operations, however former is more effective unless starship finds some nebula to "refuel".

[KirkSkyWalker]

To put it straight...

Warp drive needs constatnt power input from warp core, both to achieve and to maintain particular warp speed.

However, less energy is required to maintain constant warp 9 than to accelerate from warp 8 to warp 9. Graph is here. Only warp core can provide enough energy to accelerate ship past lightspeed. While it is possible to reach warp by using impulse drive (or at least was during TOS), such "operation" is not very energy-efficient.

Space isn't perfectly elastic; and so moving the warp-bubble moving through it, does present some "wind-resistance" which increases more than proportionately to speed. This presents the upper-limits to warp-speed travel, particularly over long distances due to fuel-concerns.
This is why it woul take 70 years to reach the gamma quadrant which was 70,000 LY away, even though Starfleet ships have been seen which can do almost 20,000C.
In other words, long-distance warp-travel is limited to about 1,000C.

Bussard collectors obviously have ability to partially refuel ship during both warp and impulse operations, however former is more effective unless starship finds some nebula to "refuel".

It depends on how high the warp, since eventually the energy lost to the inertia of the free-space hydrogen, will exceed the energy gained from fusing it. When combined with the "wind-resistance" factor stated above, this presents the practical limit of about 1,000C stated above for long-range warp-travel.

In other words, that's the "break-even" point where the rate of energy-consumption equals the rate of replenishment.

[Praeothmin]

I am compared to you, who’s been wrong on every point so far, while I’ve been right

Correction: you have repeatedly stated, yet never proven, that you are right and everybody else is wrong.
Please refrain from flinging insults, ok, and simply stick to the point?

And that goes for you to, Mr. Oragahn.
Saying to someone “you do not have the wisdom to quote Confucius” is like calling a person a moron directly.
Stop baiting each other.

nor have we ever seen a ship doing such in Star Trek with an undamaged ship; so it’s safe to assume that it isn’t done (or more accurately, there’s no canonical evidence to suggest that it is done).

And we’ve never seen anyone use a toilet in ST either.
Should we then assume that humans in ST also use a form of “entropy” by re-using all their wastes?
NO, of course not, that would be ridiculous.
The same applies to cars never being refueled in tv shows even though these shows represent the “true world” and as such need gas to operate.
So the logical conclusion is that these ships do need refueling, but it is not a problem in the Federation because of the commonality of such ships, and they certainly have refueling stations everywhere.
Such would not be the same in a far away location in our galaxy where engines may use different types of “fuel”, or where the raw elements need more refining to use.
Thus why Voyager had energy, or “fuel” issues, and the E-D never did…

And, again, you fail to provide evidence for anything.
You fling the word “entropy” around like a catch-all solution while failing to provide how it would even apply to this system.
You fail to remember that entropy works well only in a closed system, which you failed to show Warp-Travelling to be.
By relying on the bussard collectors to bring in hydrogen, you break the system’s isolation, and therefore can no longer apply entropy to that system.
The TNG Tech Manual, at page 54, even states that at Warp,

Warp Field coils are energized in sequential order, fore to aft. The firing frequency determines the number of field layers, a greater number of layers per unit time being required at higher warp factors.

It also states this:

During force coupling (of the layers) the radiated energy makes the necessary transition into subspace, applying an apparent mass reduction effect to the spacecraft.

So when the ship goes to Warp, the bubble created radiates energy in subspace, just like a car engine emits heat when creating the necessary force to make the car move forward, and that energy is spent, and it doesn’t go into a magic “energy conservation bubble”, to be retrieved once the ship goes out of Warp.
The bussard collectors act like the electric engine of a hybrid or electric car:
When the car slows down because the engine stops creating propulsion energy, they can replenish some of the spent energy, but not all, and thus extend the amount of time you can travel without refueling.
And this doesn’t create the problem of a perpetual motion machine like your theory does…

Oh, and another gem from the TNG Tech manual, on page 70:

In the event that a deuterium tanker cannot reach a Galaxy-class starship, the capability exists to pull low-grade matter…

Tanker, meaning they need refueling, and it fits nicely with Voyager…
And the same page mentions that the operation is not recommended for long periods, and that they can only accumulate matter, while a minute amount of AM can be created onboard.

While I agree a ship travelling at sublight may possibly collect enough hydrogen to refuel for STL travel and normal ship operations, there’s no way it refuels enough to compensate for Warp travel.

[Mike DiCenso]

As far as the E-1701 and E-D, among other ships almost never seeming to run out of fuel, the fact that we heard about almost every other adventure the of the ship heading off to this starbase or that one neatly explains it away since while making a layover, they can simply request for a topping off of reactants.
-Mike

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

As far as the E-1701 and E-D, among other ships almost never seeming to run out of fuel, the fact that we heard about almost every other adventure the of the ship heading off to this starbase or that one neatly explains it away since while making a layover, they can simply request for a topping off of reactants.
-Mike

I do not think they need to refuel at starbases or Federation planets very often but they still need to do so now and again, Voyager and the series Enterprise pretty much showed us that.

Voyager was on a short mission when it got blasted across the galaxy so it may not have had a large fuel load compared to what it would have had if it had been going on a long range exploration mission.

It is interesting that in VOY:Demon that it is Deuterium they run out of and not Anti-Deuterium that i would have thought would be harder to find/create. Maybe they create Anti-Deuterium from Deuterium some how.