SW Firepower debate on SB.com

[Mr. Oragahn]

Leo should pay attention to what people call a precedent.

The precedent here are Nar Shaddaa and Dankayo.

Nar Shaddaa, or how several characters spoke of reducing this moon and its structures to molten slag, including an Imperial officer, while another one, Fel, who we have no reason to classify as a nutjob, fool or ignorant, knew what a BDZ would look like: burning buildings, rubble and darkened corpses.

Leo always dismisses it as "imagination."

Dankayo, the base, described and ordered to be slagged, and yet, troops could walk on the ground, between ruins and even enter a building through a main front door.

[Mr. Oragahn]

.45

Nuff said.

[Mike DiCenso]

Then your wishing he would declare it non canon is stupid, hum. He does not ignore it he points out it’s a cartoon. There is a difference. Personally I think TCW supports the ICS nicely.

He really believes that!? This guy has to be someone's sockpuppet....
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

Then your wishing he would declare it non canon is stupid, hum. He does not ignore it he points out it’s a cartoon. There is a difference. Personally I think TCW supports the ICS nicely.

He really believes that!? This guy has to be someone's sockpuppet....
-Mike

No, he's that fused. It's all in the number.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Along Leo peddling the same nonsense, there's that ricery bloke pulling some quotation out of nowhere. No source given, nice.
A quick search has shown that it may come from here:

Robotech vs Star Trek:
http://www.factpile.com/robotech-vs-star-trek/, post 36
This L-W individual doesn't provide his sources either.

L-W
September 25, 2009
#36

Damn it, I can’t open up the Star Wars Vs Halo thread anymore, the thousand odd posts just keep shorting out the thread entirely leaving me with a HTML failed message. Either way I have some putting down to do:

1) Frieza, the only thing you’ve been shooting is blanks (at your own foot, of all places). Seriously, your stunning lack of grasp over the most basic scientific principles would leave even Karen Traviss choking in your dust. Come back when you’ve at least grasped a basic understanding of thermodynamics for one thing.

2) The small town bit isn’t particularly useful unless you can define the are of a small town. Although given your track record, your affinity for vague and unquantified statements should really come as to no surprise.

At its maximum size, the surface temp of the fireball is 7000 degrees Celsius (although this also assumes that a turbolaser behaves like a nuclear blast. Hint: It doesn’t), sufficient temperature for vaporization. For a nuclear detonation at peak scaling, the fireball radius in feet is equal to 145 times the yield in kt to 0.35. In other words, the formula is r=145*y^0.35 , where Y is KT and R is in feet.

Now here is how it gets tricky, how big is a small town? My hometown in Israel is classified as a village by local standards, but has a population of 20,000 and a surface area of 6.8 square miles. Thus the yield required to vaporize (not just blast) the area would be 151 MT (consistent with the lighter guns). But Exeter, Rhode Island, with its population of 6,000 (United States law states that anything smaller than 10,000 is classified as a “small” town – whereas large town have populations of 100,000?s) has a surface area of 57.71 square miles, requiring a yield of 3,735 MT (nearly 4 gigatons to vaporize). So depending on how big the town gives you different yields. And that’s taking a simplistic look at it by comparing temperatures. Specific heats enter into it so really you should figure out the energy applied over and area and scale it (which would actually make the blast larger than the 200 gigaton figure written in the ICS) according to the composition of the judicial area, which could raise the energy necessary for total vaporization of the surface area by over an order of magnitude.

Of course you could just simply be a borderline Creationist moron that assumes that each every turbolaser is built the same for the exact same purpose, whereas we know of dozens of variants designed for specific tasks (artillery, point-defence, heavy, anti-armour, bombardment etc.).

3) Once again assumes that every BDZ operation is going to be carried out uniformly across the factions and the breadth of the galaxy itself accordingly in the exact same process, rather than to the whims of the Captain in question, such as:

A) The bombing of Taris which was ordered to destroy the upper city centers only.

B) Canderous Ordo’s famed assaults against the core worlds during the Mandalorian wars “What’s a few continents turned to glass, if you have the whole world in the end?”.

C) “The planet of Humbarine was left with inadequate defenses during the conflict, which saw General Grievous leading Separatist forces in an hour-long bombardment from his flagship the Invisible Hand. This act completely depopulated the planet and melted its crust.” – ROTS: ICS

D) “It was still not known who the attackers had been who had come out of nowhere to systematically and ruthlessly burn off the planet” (Spectre of the Past, p.48)

E) “… to rendezvous at Dankayo and reduce the tiny base to molten slag. Even before the last of its atmosphere drifted away, before the dense clouds of atomized topsoil could begin to settle, Imperial transports Elusive and Timely, as well as a complement of TIE fighters, moved in to perform “mop-up” operations and a through search of Dankayo’s now evenly-cratered surface” (Scavenger Hunt, p.3)

F) “I know that the Grissmaths shipped their political prisoners there, in the hopes that they’d starve to death, and set automated gun stations all over the planet to keep them from being rescued. I know that the prisoners not only didn’t oblige them by dying but that their descendents — and the descendents of the guards — are still farming the water seams while the Grissmath homeworld of Meridian itself is just a ball of charred radioactive waste.” (Planet of Twilight p.4)

G) “Sunlight rippled across a sea of shimmering glass. Glass that had once been part of iridescent domes, towering minarets, soaring archways, vertical towers, and all the other structures that constitute a city. A city reduced to a sea of manmade lava, as Imperial laser cannon carved swathes of destruction through the once-beautiful metropolis.” (Jedi Knight, p.47)

H) Since the operation that was to be carried out on Nar Shaddaa in The Hutt Gambit was described as a BDZ as well, and the commanding officer expected to search through ruined cityscape afterwards, this means there are several degrees of destruction available to the commander in charge (not surprising, since turbolasers have variable yields). Some BDZs only destroy assets on the surface across the entire planet, while the more severe bombardments like the ones described in AOTC:ICS, go further down into the target world.

Either way the goal of the BDZ is dependent on the desires of the commanding Officer who issues the order, much like the process of Covenant glassing does not designate total planetary destruction (such as Voi, Harvest, Reach etc.).

You have the same bull about the ICS and other BDZ incidents, no surprise here.
I particularly love the Exeter example, which has an astonishing area of 134 square kilometers.
I'm not sure about the equation either. Perhaps it's right, but I'd like to know where it comes from.
Yes, we're going to take this as a reliable example of a small town, a town with 6000 people only, stretching over an area that's more than 11.5 kilometers wide.
RSA's page pretty much summarizes the importance of understanding who wrote this.
As put by wikipedia:

A town is a human settlement larger than a village but smaller than a city. The size a settlement must be in order to be called a "town" varies considerably in different parts of the world, so that, for example, many American "small towns" seem to British people to be no more than villages, while many British "small towns" would qualify as cities in the United States.

I find it funny that if you invert the logic that always want to look for the most populated examples, those that should mirror Star Wars' hyper urbanization and large population centers, then looking at population densities would prove rather funny.
A place like Guttenberg is just over 10,000 people and has a pop density of 21,961/km². It's also a thin stretched band. Use the same density for a place that counts ten thousand heads (max for a small town) and that's more like a square block and you find that it would have an area of 0.455 km² tops, and thus be 0.675 km wide.

Now, on the other end of the spectrum, take New Hampshire. A small town with a population of just over 1000 as in 2007.

Land area: 1.29 square miles.
Population density: 824 people per square mile

Let's pick the pop density here. Since it's a rural place, people tend to spread over larger areas. Only larger cities see inhabited areas starting to stack in multi storeys buildings.
A small town with ten thousand people at such a density would cover an area of 12.136 miles².
A circular area would be 6.326 km wide.
With Wong's Nuke calculator, that makes a ground contact nuclear explosion with a yield of 42 megatons.
High end.

I also love seeing Leo trying to pass off the turbolaser bolts seen from the surface as point defense cannons, those given 1 digit megaton firepower in the last two ICSes.
Geez. This guy never stops? And he wheeps it off as semantic bullshit, as usual.
As I said years ago, the only beams which could ever "connect" ships as long filaments are those SPHA-T beams fired from Venator's bays. We'd have to believe that there also were some of those very long beams as seen in ROTJ, but they're not seen in ROTS.
In ROTS, we barely see the bolts fired from heavy turbolaser batteries, and that's only from a couple km away. And this length and luminosity is pretty much supported by TCWS.

PD guns? Bollocks.

Oh and he is still pulling the same literal interpretation of "vaporized", citing dictionaries.

[Mike DiCenso]

L-W in the factpile page is just parroting the same shit as the Warsies have done before (looks like a cut and past job to me). I suspect L-W is another of the attack dogs that patrol around groups like that, waiting to pounce. You want to see something similar look at the Star Wars Vs. Star Trek video that KSW linked to a few days ago. Perion and couple other Warsies had the run of the commentary until this Nowhereman guy showed up and started kicking their asses. It's interesting because Perion let slip in a recent post that he's pretty much a Wong worshipper. So he's probably just cutting and pasting off of various SDN and SBC threads hoping that it would intimidate people. But look at how he falls apart along with Nanoforge and Blacksun when anyone stands up to them with real information about SW's weak firepower showings.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

I invited 45 to read the last posts of the BDZ thread here, notably this one, in reply to his and Leo's claim about the ICS not supporting the idea that an ISD could melt the crust of a planet to a one meter depth within one hour or less.
Unsurprisingly, he managed to misread the content of the post and missing the point. I invited him to debate over here, but he refused, calling SFJN a lame place that "changes what you write" (?) and where "mods are dishonest" (??).
I guess it's just better than admitting being wrong... :)

Oh and Leo1/Vympel is about to be a lawyer? That must explain why he takes it so personally and refuses to concede anything. It would be an insult to what he believes he's capable of.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

I invited 45 to read the last posts of the BDZ thread here, notably this one, in reply to his and Leo's claim about the ICS not supporting the idea that an ISD could melt the crust of a planet to a one meter depth within one hour or less.
Unsurprisingly, he managed to misread the content of the post and missing the point. I invited him to debate over here, but he refused, calling SFJN a lame place that "changes what you write" (?) and where "mods are dishonest" (??).
I guess it's just better than admitting being wrong... :)

Oh and Leo1/Vympel is about to be a lawyer? That must explain why he takes it so personally and refuses to concede anything. It would be an insult to what he believes he's capable of.

He better hope he gets judges who support his crap as much as the mods do on SB or he is gonna have a short career.

[Mike DiCenso]

Unsurprisingly, he managed to misread the content of the post and missing the point. I invited him to debate over here, but he refused, calling SFJN a lame place that "changes what you write" (?) and where "mods are dishonest" (??).

I think the idiot is mistaking SFJN's forum for ASVS where something like that does happen, but you can't get banned. Until very recently, SFJN has had no mods, just JMS as admin, now just a single mod, and no one has ever tampered with another person's posts. On top of that, bans of any duration are the exception, not the rule, and unlike SBC and SDN, are not motivated towards maintaining religious devotion to the ICS bible or an automatic outcome in favor of SW, it is has so far been enacted for poor conduct towards others.

So this is just Point's cowardice at having to go to a forum where his conduct will be under scrutiny, and unlike at SBC and SDN, the single mod here won't come rushing to his rescue when people start boxing him into a corner by pointing out his lack of evidence and poor logic.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

He was given a link to the thread, so I doubt he's confused between SFJN and ASVS. We never had any mod (it's been only a week or more) and I don't get where he got his idea that posts were altered. As for ASVS, until very recently, the moderation was almost non-existent aside from basic rules needed to be OK with the law. It was quite the point of the forum.
In his reply, the main argument he chose to send me was that I was wrong in that the Invisible Hand was supervising a bombardment - it was not involved in it - so my claim about the firepower allowing a single warship to meet a Saxtonian BDZ - the minutes long type - was wrong.
So obviously he just couldn't read properly, because the evidence is just that damning. Most warships of the Clone Wars, as per the ICS, have enough firepower to meet the total 1.7 e24 J figure resulting from "a few minutes" of bombardment - which is the low end Saxtonian BDZ - and both last ICSes actually give the ships enough firepower to complete a bombardment that would require the "real" energy requirements that are between a hundred and a thousand times superior, and still within minutes.
Which means that the ICSes offer more than firepower for a warship to singlehandedly perform a complete overkill, over the top BDZ within an hour.
The numbers are there, they're actually very simple to understand.
45 won't debate those conclusions because he knows he simply can't debunk them, as simple as that.

[Lucky]

I don't understand how they can defend the ICS when they have mistakes like the wrong models of ships in them.

[Mike DiCenso]

He was given a link to the thread, so I doubt he's confused between SFJN and ASVS. We never had any mod (it's been only a week or more) and I don't get where he got his idea that posts were altered. As for ASVS, until very recently, the moderation was almost non-existent aside from basic rules needed to be OK with the law. It was quite the point of the forum.

With that guy, lies are truth as far as he's concerned. I remember he used to post under a somewhat different anon nick at Strek-vs-SWars.net forum, and got banned. But his posts weren't altered, and he/she/it was being punished for poor behavior. As for ASVS, I've seen a number of times where user names have been altered, along with attachments, epsecially where Jason was and is concerned. Really what it comes down to his his cowardice in not wanting to leave the safety of SBC and SDN where he has the safety of Wars biased mods to step in and save him from the evil Trekkies who tear his crap apart. It's either that or maybe he really is someone's sock puppet, and he's afraid he'll get outed.
-Mike

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

I saw a post the other day that pointed out that according to the S canon description the 200 gigaton claims actually qualify.

S-canon is Secondary Canon; the materials are available to be used or ignored as needed by current authors. This includes mostly older works, such as much of the Marvel Star Wars comics, that predate a consistent effort to maintain continuity; it also contains certain elements of a few otherwise N-canon stories, and other things that "may not fit just right." Many formerly S-canon elements have been elevated to C-canon through their inclusion in more recent works by continuity-minded authors, while many other older works (such as The Han Solo Adventures) were accounted for in continuity from the start despite their age, and thus were always C-canon.

The "other things that may not fit just right." pretty much sums up the ICS wank considering nothing in the franchise really supports it.

[Mr. Oragahn]

He was given a link to the thread, so I doubt he's confused between SFJN and ASVS. We never had any mod (it's been only a week or more) and I don't get where he got his idea that posts were altered. As for ASVS, until very recently, the moderation was almost non-existent aside from basic rules needed to be OK with the law. It was quite the point of the forum.

With that guy, lies are truth as far as he's concerned. I remember he used to post under a somwwhat different anon nick at Strek-vs-SWars.net forum, and got banned. But his posts weren't altered, and he/she/it was being punished for poor behavior.

It's weird, I don't have many memories of that website. I probably arrived late, enjoyed one year before it closed.
I didn't know 45 was over there. Was he posting under this nickname or was it his style that betrayed him?

As for ASVS, I've seen a number of times where uer names have been altered, along with attachments, epsecially where Jason was and is concerned.

Something tells me that only dorks would see their username altered.
I for one don't have any fear that my username over there would be altered.
Posts, I don't know.

Really what it comes down to his his cowardice in not wanting to leave the safety of SBC and SDN where he has the safety of Wars biased mods to step in and save him from the evil Trekkies who tear his crap apart. It's either that or maybe he really is someone's sock puppet, and he's afraid he'll get outed.
-Mike

If anyone has a doubt about the bias, I was looking at a thread titled "Trek + BC-304 Odyssey Vs. Star Wars".
On page 7 (could be more for you, I display 40 posts/page), Mith and I were arguing with 45, plus other members orbiting this discussion. At one point I made an error about the time of use of the Galaxy Gun when replying to an unsubstantiated statement made by Das (not to say that the Galaxy Gun was completely irrelevant to the OP). I acknowledged this and we moved on.
Much later, Schatten jumped in and I had to bring him back to reality. Being a total jerk, he just couldn't let it go:

I didn't notice it, I typically don't care for your and Mith's idiocy so I simply scan every now and again to see if anyone said anything worthwhile. So are you two going to show when Wookieepedia became a licensed arbiter of Star Wars canon or can I just take it as you two jumping on whatever bullshit you can find without checking sources?

Follows a small exchange of flames between him and I. Then Vespasian, probably buzzing around at that time, decides to step in.
Another page full exchange of posts, until things get heated.

Skyzeta arrives, gives warnings.

I tell him that I had no plan continuing doing this, and I already had provided all sources I used several posts ago. At that time, I and Mith had just finished talking about the Empire's fleet in the OT era, citing an exhaustive amount of data from several sources, all properly identified as well.

LV makes a final short post, refers to five sources, and adds a little commentary after each one of them - like if it proved anything since he was only condensing his claims, the same claims I already addressed. His comments were proving nothing, of course, and in fact the vast bulk of his five references were not on his side. 25,000 ISDs? Never denied. 1 million worlds by ANH? Never denied. Thrawn conquering many territories? Never denied - I actually said it myself. The fact remained that the forces Thrawn could muster for an all out attack of the most importance in his life were limited, and LV just didn't stomach that. He obviously completely ignored the facts I provided in rather obvious ways.

Surprise, surprise, Skyzeta didn't accept my withdrawal:

Alright, having read the commentary from both:

Lord Vespasian-Do try to be a little calmer, even if the other guy annoys the hell out of you. I'm not going to nick you or anything, just friendly advice.

Mr. Oragahn-I was giving you this chance to prove your point specifically so you could have a chance to make your case. You didn't and from what little I've been able to dicipher from this little shit storm, Vespasian is on the money when he talks about you refusing to adequately source your materials. I'm no stranger to speculation, but I've always been careful to be able to provide sources when asked which you've failed to do. Your unwarranted and unprovoked flaming is even worse.

In "plain English" I catch you at this again, I boot you for a week....

I guess Schatten's glaring and cheap flaming, just for the sake of letting him vent his range, was not obvious enough?
Oh and of course, I must have opened the hostilities with LV.

No, for the sake of politeness, let's just say that Skyzeta was not objective at all, plain and simple, and helping his little friends.

So it's no surprise that warsies would never wander outside of those comfy dens of bias they thrive in.
In that light, Kane Starkiller's decision to come here, although he doesn't post anymore, was laudable.

In the meantime, I enjoy the mud fight between Higgy and Leo, the later being rather proud to have noticed that I'm reading the thread while logged in. :/
Yeah, err... what?
And I suppose checking a thread in which he posts like ten times a day - and has to be just as much present to see me - makes me obsessed? Because I can't post in it? Then, again, is it forbidden to read it? No. Not to say that my browsing habits make it so that I usually find myself leaving two dozen tabs from various websites open at the same time, and my computer keeps running while downloading stuff while I'm away.
Oh, wait, is he trying to embarrass me or something? Yes, I have views about 9/11 which don't stick with the official positions at all, and I have no problem with that.
So what? Does that mean Leo gets a free pass when he makes stupid statements?
As for the mod bias against me or other people, the facts speak for themselves, unfortunately for him. The fact that I went to SBC and took that much flak for challenging the bias, and that Leo never came out of his warm lairs proves me right as well.
He won't get banned here for the silly reasons that got me banned at SBC. That he knows.
No, the problem with him is that he's just a coward and it shows.

Oh and while I'm at it, I'll soon post the evidence he picked up about the bombardment of Grand Isle, and show just how that simply contradicts the ICS as well. Sure he'll hate me for that, since he thought it gave bonus points to his argumentation. ^^

I saw a post the other day that pointed out that according to the S canon description the 200 gigaton claims actually qualify.

S-canon is Secondary Canon; the materials are available to be used or ignored as needed by current authors. This includes mostly older works, such as much of the Marvel Star Wars comics, that predate a consistent effort to maintain continuity; it also contains certain elements of a few otherwise N-canon stories, and other things that "may not fit just right." Many formerly S-canon elements have been elevated to C-canon through their inclusion in more recent works by continuity-minded authors, while many other older works (such as The Han Solo Adventures) were accounted for in continuity from the start despite their age, and thus were always C-canon.

The "other things that may not fit just right." pretty much sums up the ICS wank considering nothing in the franchise really supports it.

Good point.
It's quite interesting that while some warsies still try to argue that the ICS are of superior C rank, the reality is that the claims made in the last two ones are so out of touch with the universe that they'd actually fit better in S canon. :)

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

I saw a post the other day that pointed out that according to the S canon description the 200 gigaton claims actually qualify.

S-canon is Secondary Canon; the materials are available to be used or ignored as needed by current authors. This includes mostly older works, such as much of the Marvel Star Wars comics, that predate a consistent effort to maintain continuity; it also contains certain elements of a few otherwise N-canon stories, and other things that "may not fit just right." Many formerly S-canon elements have been elevated to C-canon through their inclusion in more recent works by continuity-minded authors, while many other older works (such as The Han Solo Adventures) were accounted for in continuity from the start despite their age, and thus were always C-canon.

The "other things that may not fit just right." pretty much sums up the ICS wank considering nothing in the franchise really supports it.

Good point.
It's quite interesting that while some warsies still try to argue that the ICS are of superior C rank, the reality is that the claims made in the last two ones are so out of touch with the universe that they'd actually fit better in S canon. :)

After reading through it one of the more abusive trolls called Blacksun2175 (this clown must have a VAST file on insults that involve descriptions for oral sex) who has added nothing to the thread but insults also insists that the ICS stats are of a "higher" C canon than other C canon material.

The interesting thing is that he back this comment up with?......yup a link to wookiepedia about the acclamator that mentions them...