Nature of Empire vs. Federation technology

[Mike DiCenso]

When have we seen ships out-of-Warp fire Phasers at ships going at Warp?
We've seen Phasers being fired at Warp, and in many angles, which, since we can see ships at Warp when the view is inside the "Warp stream", and since we know subspace is a sub-layer of space (from the TNG episode where subspace aliens kidnap the crew), then we can infer that going to Warp actually has the ship immersed in subspace, including the energy manifestation of its weapons.

But again, have we actually seen STL ships firing Phasers at FTL?

We've seen how warp bubbles work, Praeothmin, and how much area around a starship they normally cover, which is not that much at all. For example, check out ST:ENT's "Divergence", where the NX-01 and NX-02 have to merge their warp fields to allow Trip to transfer over to the stricken Enterprise. You can see the video here.

Since we have seen ships fight at warp as early as "Fallen Hero" and "Shockwave", the weapons are not dependent on the warp fields around the ship for their ability to travel FTL.
-Mike

[Praeothmin]

Ok, Mike and KirkSkywalker, if Phasers are subspace-based weapons (not graviton-based), then what are they?
How do we explain the fact that we see them propagate?
They act like Turbolasers, with a guiding "magnetic field" that impacts before we see the beam hit?
The damaging part isn't the visible beam, but this beam is a byproduct of the decaying stream?

I agree it would answer many questions, such as firing at and from Warp, but there are still the issues I presented earlier.
And also, by not knowing how SW shields work, we still can't say they would ignore these shields completely, or even partially.
And SW ships do have armor, against which Phasers may not penetrate well, depending on the armor...

[KirkSkyWalker]

Ok, Mike and KirkSkywalker, if Phasers are subspace-based weapons (not graviton-based), then what are they?

Gravitons are subspace-particles.

How do we explain the fact that we see them propagate?

Same way we hear thunder, when lightning isn't based on sound: i.e. some of the energy converts to it during propogation.

The damaging part isn't the visible beam, but this beam is a byproduct of the decaying stream?

Bingo-- just like thunder never killed anyone.

And also, by not knowing how SW shields work, we still can't say they would ignore these shields completely, or even partially.
And SW ships do have armor, against which Phasers may not penetrate well, depending on the armor...

IONS work against both their shields and armor-- in Ep. V, the Hoth ion-canon completely disabled a Star Destroyer: lights out, literally.
I'd say that phasers would do all right, since they can disrupt sub-nuclear particle structures, not just ionize them.

[Praeothmin]

Gravitons are subspace-particles.

They are?
where's that from?

Same way we hear thunder, when lightning isn't based on sound: i.e. some of the energy converts to it during propogation.

Thunder is created by the effect the increase in pressure and temperature in the air caused by the lightning, which creates a sound wave.
What could cause that "light show" effect in space?

IONS work against both their shields and armor-- in Ep. V, the Hoth ion-canon completely disabled a Star Destroyer: lights out, literally.
I'd say that phasers would do all right, since they can disrupt sub-nuclear particle structures, not just ionize them.

Except that the ION cannon shot simply disabled all electrical systems ono the ship, and disn't destroy anything else.
Phasers would need to penetrate to do any damage...

[KirkSkyWalker]

Gravitons are subspace-particles.

They are?
where's that from?

Same way we hear thunder, when lightning isn't based on sound: i.e. some of the energy converts to it during propogation.

Thunder is created by the effect the increase in pressure and temperature in the air caused by the lightning, which creates a sound wave.
What could cause that "light show" effect in space?

Same thing: some of the energy dissipates and converts to light as it propagates through subspace.

IONS work against both their shields and armor-- in Ep. V, the Hoth ion-canon completely disabled a Star Destroyer: lights out, literally.
I'd say that phasers would do all right, since they can disrupt sub-nuclear particle structures, not just ionize them.

Except that the ION cannon shot simply disabled all electrical systems ono the ship, and disn't destroy anything else.
Phasers would need to penetrate to do any damage...

If the ship's vulnerable to ions-- and likewise has electrical systems-- then armor is irrelevant anyway; and likewise phasers could shoot right through it.
But there would be no need; again, the Federation ships could simply beam the crews out of the SD's, commandeer their systems, or just blow them up with phasers etc.; they’d be in total control.

[Praeothmin]

Same thing: some of the energy dissipates and converts to light as it propagates through subspace.

Ok then, Phasers act just like Turbolasers....

If the ship's vulnerable to ions-- and likewise has electrical systems-- then armor is irrelevant anyway; and likewise phasers could shoot right through it.
But there would be no need; again, the Federation ships could simply beam the crews out of the SD's, commandeer their systems, or just blow them up with phasers etc.; they’d be in total control.

The ship is vulnerable to a shitload of ions, not just "ions", and is vulnerable because of all the power circuits running to its weapons and sensors, which are on the surface of the ship's hull, just like a ST ship.
So no, Phasers will not just shoot right through it...
And the beaming will be stopped by the Ray shields, since ST cannot beam through shields...

[Lucky]

Isn't there a console in Generations that says that Federation shields are gravity based in I think Generations?

I could have sworn I saw a screen cap a thttp://st-v-sw.net/. I wish I wasn't so clumsy with searches.

[Praeothmin]

Isn't there a console in Generations that says that Federation shields are gravity based in I think Generations?

I could have sworn I saw a screen cap a thttp://st-v-sw.net/. I wish I wasn't so clumsy with searches.

I believe you are right, but that still doens't make ST ships or shields immune to SW weapons.
We've seen them be hit and damaged by physical impacts, and all types of energy, so they do not phase the ship, or immunize it against all sorts of weapons, it only gives protection up to a certain level of energy of any sort, kinetic or thermal or radioactive...

[Lucky]

Isn't there a console in Generations that says that Federation shields are gravity based in I think Generations?

I could have sworn I saw a screen cap a thttp://st-v-sw.net/. I wish I wasn't so clumsy with searches.

I believe you are right, but that still doens't make ST ships or shields immune to SW weapons.
We've seen them be hit and damaged by physical impacts, and all types of energy, so they do not phase the ship, or immunize it against all sorts of weapons, it only gives protection up to a certain level of energy of any sort, kinetic or thermal or radioactive...

Could you give some examples of mundane objects damaging shields, and the context? Ever example I can think of seems to involve exotic factors.

[KirkSkyWalker]

Isn't there a console in Generations that says that Federation shields are gravity based in I think Generations?

I could have sworn I saw a screen cap a thttp://st-v-sw.net/. I wish I wasn't so clumsy with searches.

I believe you are right, but that still doens't make ST ships or shields immune to SW weapons.
We've seen them be hit and damaged by physical impacts, and all types of energy, so they do not phase the ship, or immunize it against all sorts of weapons, it only gives protection up to a certain level of energy of any sort, kinetic or thermal or radioactive...

Could you give some examples of mundane objects damaging shields, and the context? Ever example I can think of seems to involve exotic factors.

It would have to be some type of multiphasic radiation, such as a nuke ("Balance of Terror," a star "Operation: Annhilate!" etc.

With multiphasic shields, however, even going into a star's photosphere won't hurt a starship, since the radiation simply gets deflected.

According to Janeway, the fact that Starfleet ships were equipped with this technology was taken for granted in the year 2373. (VOY: "Flashback").

[Lucky]

Isn't there a console in Generations that says that Federation shields are gravity based in I think Generations?

I could have sworn I saw a screen cap a thttp://st-v-sw.net/. I wish I wasn't so clumsy with searches.

I believe you are right, but that still doens't make ST ships or shields immune to SW weapons.
We've seen them be hit and damaged by physical impacts, and all types of energy, so they do not phase the ship, or immunize it against all sorts of weapons, it only gives protection up to a certain level of energy of any sort, kinetic or thermal or radioactive...

Could you give some examples of mundane objects damaging shields, and the context? Ever example I can think of seems to involve exotic factors.

It would have to be some type of multiphasic radiation, such as a nuke ("Balance of Terror," a star "Operation: Annhilate!" etc.

With multiphasic shields, however, even going into a star's photosphere won't hurt a starship, since the radiation simply gets deflected.

According to Janeway, the fact that Starfleet ships were equipped with this technology was taken for granted in the year 2373. (VOY: "Flashback").

Well everything I can think of being threats to Trek ships involve Trek Tech, high gravity, or the ships being already damaged from Trek tech.

[Mike DiCenso]

Well everything I can think of being threats to Trek ships involve Trek Tech, high gravity, or the ships being already damaged from Trek tech.

Actually quite a few "mundane" things can hurt ST shields, just as they can also hurt SW ones. For one thing, the shields can be hurt by kinetic impacts. We see examples or hear of where such damage can occur to ST ships' shields, such as in "Mudd's Women" where the E-1701 has to extend her shields to protect Harry Mudd's little Class J cargo ship, or in TNG's "Final Mission" where the E-D does something similar to escort a radioactive barge through an asteroid and into a star. Compare this to the ISD bridge tower incident from TESB, and with the Falcon in desperately avoiding colliding with modest sized asteroids at low relative velocity. In The second highest canon of the TCW series, the episode "Downfall of a Droid" has Munificents having to double-front their shields, taking power away from the aft arc of the vessels to protect themselves from impacting sub km asteroids at again low relative velocity. So ST shields seem better than their SW counterparts at deflecting KE impacts, but they still can and do take damage from it.
-Mike

[KirkSkyWalker]

Well everything I can think of being threats to Trek ships involve Trek Tech, high gravity, or the ships being already damaged from Trek tech.

Actually quite a few "mundane" things can hurt ST shields, just as they can also hurt SW ones. For one thing, the shields can be hurt by kinetic impacts. We see examples or hear of where such damage can occur to ST ships' shields, such as in "Mudd's Women" where the E-1701 has to extend her shields to protect Harry Mudd's little Class J cargo ship,

No, they overheated the dilithium crystals by running too much power through them; stretching a ship's deflector-shield to protect a distant vessel is not what they were made for. The ENterprise wasn't damaged, the crystals were simply burned out and needed to be replaced (apparently they never heard of spare tires).

or in TNG's "Final Mission" where the E-D does something similar to escort a radioactive barge through an asteroid and into a star. Compare this to the ISD bridge tower incident from TESB, and with the Falcon in desperately avoiding colliding with modest sized asteroids at low relative velocity.

This was all before multiphasic shielding was made standard.
Similarly, in "Balance of Terror," the Romulans hit the Enterprise with a NUKE which explodes at 100 meters; it causes some radiation-burns to the crew.

In "Return to Tomorrow," Spock likewise says that Capt. Christopher's fighter-jet is equipped with nuclear-tipped missiles which could damage the Enterprise.
However mutiphasic shieling can keep out the radiation of being in a star's photosphere, as well as the heat and gravity.
So while a bit of the the omniphasic radiation of nukes, stars and other crude sources can pass through standard deflectors due to the phase-window and wide spectrum of frequencies emitted, multiphasic shields don't seem to have that problem.

[Lucky]

Well everything I can think of being threats to Trek ships involve Trek Tech, high gravity, or the ships being already damaged from Trek tech.

Actually quite a few "mundane" things can hurt ST shields, just as they can also hurt SW ones. For one thing, the shields can be hurt by kinetic impacts. We see examples or hear of where such damage can occur to ST ships' shields, such as in "Mudd's Women" where the E-1701 has to extend her shields to protect Harry Mudd's little Class J cargo ship, or in TNG's "Final Mission" where the E-D does something similar to escort a radioactive barge through an asteroid and into a star. Compare this to the ISD bridge tower incident from TESB, and with the Falcon in desperately avoiding colliding with modest sized asteroids at low relative velocity. In The second highest canon of the TCW series, the episode "Downfall of a Droid" has Munificents having to double-front their shields, taking power away from the aft arc of the vessels to protect themselves from impacting sub km asteroids at again low relative velocity. So ST shields seem better than their SW counterparts at deflecting KE impacts, but they still can and do take damage from it.
-Mike

Could you please be more specific? The last time I saw "Mudd's Women" I was something like 4 years old, and I don't recall ever seeing "Final Mission".

Memory Alpha seems to make it appear Mudds ship was damaged at the time so it could not defend it's self, and in "Final Mission" Memory Alpha makes it appear we are dealing with super technobabble radiation. An unshielded ship should not be threatened by things like mundane radiation unless there is a hull breach, and a properly working trek ship should have no problems with mundane space rocks..

[Mike DiCenso]

No, they overheated the dilithium crystals by running too much power through them; stretching a ship's deflector-shield to protect a distant vessel is not what they were made for. The ENterprise wasn't damaged, the crystals were simply burned out and needed to be replaced (apparently they never heard of spare tires).

No the Enterprise did not take that much damage, though I would argue that the loss of the dilithium crystals counts as a form of damage both to the shields and the ship since the power required to protect both vessels is too much for the E-1701 to handle while under continual impact for the asteroids. Normally impacts may require a lot longer to cause harm, but the do put stress on the ship's shields just the same. Otherwise Data would not have nixed the idea of the E-D following in after an errant photon torpedo that got lost among a dense asteroid field.

Other impacts are not of a continous variety, just single impact events, like Rogar Danar's shuttle crashing into the E-D's shields in "The Hunted", or the Crystaline Entity ramming into the E-D's shields in "Datalore" in which we cannot make out what the long term damage that might occur would be. On the other hand we do have a definite shield damage incident in ST:NEM with the chunks of a destroyed Romulan Valdore warbird slaming into the E-E's warp nacelle shields, which bounced it off and knocked the foward shields down to "ten percent". Then the E-E ramming the Scimitar which still had shields up to 70%, but still was able to punch through and cause serious structrual damage. Now in fairness these were ships that had seen heavy combat, so we don't know under other circumstances how the ships would have fared against similarly energetic impacts.
-Mike