Galaxy-Class & ISD Weaponry

[The Dude]

So why the complaints then?

[Trinoya]

I don't view it so much as complaining as a major point of debate. You can't really go onto a mainstream forum without the ICS being touted as allowing random freighter A from being able to independently destroy everything in star trek with its wank shields and weapons. This of course completely ignoring that it disagrees with C-cannon written both before and after it, it disagrees with the movie its based on, disagrees with many of the other movies, and certainly disagrees with the T-Cannon material.

In fact, if it were up to me, we'd simply eliminate it from the debate.. I mean the way the most venomous of the wars side goes on about these figures they should be able to effortlessly provide terraton and gigaton firepower figures to back up the ICS in the movies and the new tv show.

[The Dude]

Frankly if you've got some guy spouting off about a random freighter beating the UFP then he's a bloody idiot, ICS or not. Logistics, whats that?

That said, I suppose the question becomes "how much time and effort can one expend having the same argument?"

[Mr. Oragahn]

The series are enjoyable, but they clearly proved to be most absurd when visuals were involved. Thankfully, we can always upscale the multi-megajoules of fighters and other ground vehicles so they match the size of Star Destroyers to see that claiming gigajoules of firepower for the large starships doesn't make sense. We also have the note from the ROTS novelization about the vaporization of a small town or something.
Besides TCWS is the same series showing Venators slowing down rather impressively. That's why I generally pay much more attention to dialogue than visuals. It's a cartoon that's just as visually silly as the other Clone Wars, but in a different way.

Yes, we have a potentially higher canon source that indicates the heavy TLs might be capable of single-digit kilotons or megatons depending on how you want to interpret what a "small town" is. But claiming that the TCW is a kiddie show and therefore we can ignore what is going on visually in it is silly handwaving that I don't think anyone outside of SDN would seriously make use of as an excuse. What will the excuse be when we see something like this happen in the live-action series (assuming that ever gets made)?
-Mike

I'm not sure they'll treat the live action series' visuals and scope with the same contempt they do for the CGI stuff.
Is Kevin Smith still on it?

Plus you don't see anything in TCW that you haven't seen in RotS or even in AotC.
The droids are also idiots in the movies, and the main difference is that anakin is actually a better character in TCW then in the other two movies, more mature, and a better leader (not to mention a better actor)... :)

My main problem for example is the horrible aim, like in that episode where droids and stormies can't even hit shit when there's like ten meters between each other, in that episode where they're stuck in lifepods, near the Athegan sun or some such.

Yes, tactics and other things seem to be taken straight out of the film, but you have just plain hard crap like, for example, Venators being ruined by sluggish vulture droids that don't even make big fireworks, and that supposedly while shields were up!
At least in oBSG the Cylon Raiders were said to be packing lots of explosives, and the ROTJ novelization had Rebel cargos filled with explosives to be used as such, which incidentally should tell us that it would take quite a lot to bring shields down. Plus the novelization also had notes of warships rocked by thermonuclear explosions during the same space battle.
TCWS is also a show where worlds are so fucking underpopulated it hurts. Even the Coruscanti senate had like a few people in it when it was attacked by bounty hunters. How could it get more retarded?
You have starfighters falling in space, being able to outrun a ion-pancake of doom and even "ride" it as they cross its perimeter... you have AAT which don't even have enough firepower to break small trees (first episode I think) when in TPM all the weapons used by those tanks clearly had enough firepower to destroy trees. A single shot from the chin cannons of an Imperial chicken war wagon, in ROTJ, could easily pulverize and cut in two 30~40 cm thick trees on rapid fire. The heavy blaster on a Naboo antigrav vehicle could blow up an AAT in one shot.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Frankly if you've got some guy spouting off about a random freighter beating the UFP then he's a bloody idiot, ICS or not. Logistics, whats that?

That said, I suppose the question becomes "how much time and effort can one expend having the same argument?"

The ICS precisely answered this. No time for arguments, the figures are there.
It was just a cheap "win". No more, no less. And it's not just the ICS, it's about everything Saxton is related to as far as official stuff goes.
I found Leo1 (Vympel at SDN) largely relying on the Inside the World which Saxton was consultant for to support the larger figures in debates wherein the last two ICSes were in "peril". :)

[Praeothmin]

Plus you don't see anything in TCW that you haven't seen in RotS or even in AotC.
The droids are also idiots in the movies, and the main difference is that anakin is actually a better character in TCW then in the other two movies, more mature, and a better leader (not to mention a better actor)... :)

My main problem for example is the horrible aim, like in that episode where droids and stormies can't even hit shit when there's like ten meters between each other, in that episode where they're stuck in lifepods, near the Athegan sun or some such.

Yes, tactics and other things seem to be taken straight out of the film, but you have just plain hard crap like, for example, Venators being ruined by sluggish vulture droids that don't even make big fireworks, and that supposedly while shields were up!
At least in oBSG the Cylon Raiders were said to be packing lots of explosives, and the ROTJ novelization had Rebel cargos filled with explosives to be used as such, which incidentally should tell us that it would take quite a lot to bring shields down. Plus the novelization also had notes of warships rocked by thermonuclear explosions during the same space battle.
TCWS is also a show where worlds are so fucking underpopulated it hurts. Even the Coruscanti senate had like a few people in it when it was attacked by bounty hunters. How could it get more retarded?
You have starfighters falling in space, being able to outrun a ion-pancake of doom and even "ride" it as they cross its perimeter... you have AAT which don't even have enough firepower to break small trees (first episode I think) when in TPM all the weapons used by those tanks clearly had enough firepower to destroy trees. A single shot from the chin cannons of an Imperial chicken war wagon, in ROTJ, could easily pulverize and cut in two 30~40 cm thick trees on rapid fire. The heavy blaster on a Naboo antigrav vehicle could blow up an AAT in one shot.

This horrible aim was also seen in AotC, in RotS as well.
As for weak weapons, the weapons fired in AotC between the Clones and the Droids were pathetic.
AT-TE weapons were barely creating grenade like puffs when hitting the ground, the Clones and Droids missing each other from a few dozen yards away on a clear battle field in AotC, or at Utapau in RotS...
Whatever we see in TCW, we saw in the prequels...

[The Dude]

Frankly if you've got some guy spouting off about a random freighter beating the UFP then he's a bloody idiot, ICS or not. Logistics, whats that?

That said, I suppose the question becomes "how much time and effort can one expend having the same argument?"

The ICS precisely answered this. No time for arguments, the figures are there.
It was just a cheap "win". No more, no less. And it's not just the ICS, it's about everything Saxton is related to as far as official stuff goes.
I found Leo1 (Vympel at SDN) largely relying on the Inside the World which Saxton was consultant for to support the larger figures in debates wherein the last two ICSes were in "peril". :)

Thats not what I'm saying. Assuming the ICS figures are correct, its the logistics that kill the scenario. Where does random freighter get more fuel, where does random freighter get spare parts?

Thats what is always lacking from these "lone ISD conquers the AQ" scenarios.

[KirkSkyWalker]

This is not a vs debate in the normal sense. The two contestants might be the Galaxy-class and an Imperial Stardestroyer, but the question is not "Who will win in a fight?" No, the question is "How powerful are the weapons on each of these vessels, in your opinion."

The Empire's weapons can't pentrate Starfleet shields, hit Starflet ships which are moving at warp, or reach Starfleet ships which are farther than about 5000km.
In contrast, Starfleet weapons can likely do all of these things to Imperial ships.

And that's really what matters. While Han Solo says that it would take 1000 Imperial ships to destroy a planet, just remember that planets can't move-- or shoot back.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Frankly if you've got some guy spouting off about a random freighter beating the UFP then he's a bloody idiot, ICS or not. Logistics, whats that?

That said, I suppose the question becomes "how much time and effort can one expend having the same argument?"

The ICS precisely answered this. No time for arguments, the figures are there.
It was just a cheap "win". No more, no less. And it's not just the ICS, it's about everything Saxton is related to as far as official stuff goes.
I found Leo1 (Vympel at SDN) largely relying on the Inside the World which Saxton was consultant for to support the larger figures in debates wherein the last two ICSes were in "peril". :)

Thats not what I'm saying. Assuming the ICS figures are correct, its the logistics that kill the scenario. Where does random freighter get more fuel, where does random freighter get spare parts?

Thats what is always lacking from these "lone ISD conquers the AQ" scenarios.

Well I don't get it then. They'd just say it's a heavily industrialized galaxy, anyone can slap megaton firepower onto his freighter and level an entire city just because of an oopsie or because some suicidal teenager borrowed his father's keys and just wanted to spit at the face of the world...

[Mr. Oragahn]

Oh, in terms of odd claims, I also quickly read this old thread, SBC: Weapon types and power figures (original thread closed), in which Leo and Schatten notably argued that the 200 GT cannons of an Acclamator were not stated as being HTLs. Leo said that they could be as small as the quad turbolasers seen on the Invisible Hand.

Contrary to popular belief, the ROTS:ICS does come with figures. It says:

• • 

• • 

The first one puts a PD piece at 20 petajoules max, the other puts a quad TL turret at around 15 GT, as per the latest editions of this page, or 1 teraton as per the earlier editions.
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