Death Star vs Borg Cube-Who Would Win? (PLEASE READ)

[Mr. Oragahn]

On the other hand, the Cube that got a lock on the Voyager got hit by molten rock traveling at less than 10 km/s and was taking severe damage.
The Cubes also explode when they get hit by the milky translucent surface of the expanding sphere of doom.
In reality, in the 3D software, the planet was probably barely bigger than a dozen Cubes.
It's just the crappy way they "shoot" such scenes. It's fine when there is no interaction between the ship and whatever would come from the planet. But when it does you can appreciate the messed up scales. You have the same problem in that episode when Voyager is hit by a rock projected by a nearby so called planet's explosion. Scales and velocity of ejecta don't match with the expected speeds

.

I don't see what this has to do with anything. The Borg cubeship's shields start taking some damage not from the huge and modestely dense spray of molten rock, but from the intital attack by a passing S8472, and it's shields are not completely knocked down until the energy shockwave hits it. You can see the proper order of the scenein this video here (watch from 6:43 onward). The scaling problem has always been an issue in SF shows and movies. Stargate, for example, with the Daedalus from "Echoes" with the slow moving column of solar flare material that hits it's shields.

What you are bringing up are two different things; kinetic energy versus EM energy resistance. In both Star and Star Trek as well as other SF shows, those are often two seperate things. But in this case, the Borg ship held up against the molten debris spray just fine.
-Mike

1. When the bioships open fire, the first geyser is seen moving away from the planet at what would be thousands of kilometers per second, yet approaches and hits the Borg Cube at a much slower speed (10 km/s or less). With the ejecta's initial velocity that's observed, gravity couldn't explain the severe reduction of speed.
2. The sphere of doom is seen expanding as fast as reaching twice the diameter of the planet within one second, yet again passes the Cubes at a speed that's about a few tens of km/s at best. You would say that the Cubes were then moving almost as fast as the fields of debris, therefore at more than a radius of that planet per second, which would be about 5~7 e6 m/s. But such is not true as the planet doesn't shrink in the slightest: we clearly see that the camera doesn't move away from the planet, which is the unavoidable consequence of flying that fast away from it.
The sphere passes through the Cube at a speed which would correspond to the kinetic energy you used for the calculation, and yet it's clearly the KE which would be dangerous here.

I actually happen to be able to check the video frame by frame, and it takes five frames for a Cube to be completely engulfed inside the white sphere. That's about a fifth of a second. Nothing considerable here.

If the cube is 3 km wide, that's 15 km/s. Since the wall that kills Cubes is largely transparent, there's not much matter here. It's just worth an expanding cloud of dust and debris. Nothing fancy, but somehow Cubes are sensitive to that.

Scales and velocity of ejecta don't match with the expected speeds.

Neither does Alderaan's explosion, which didn't stop Warsies from using it to calculate the speed of the ejecta to obtain firepower figures... :)

I don't see any problem with Alderaan, since there's nothing on screen safe the planet blowing up that would reveal a major VFX error besides sheer VFX age.

[Mr. Oragahn]

There are many ways a DS could blast a Borg cube however we know how the borg operate and that the first cube is mearly the first of many and while il not get into the ins and outs of if they are capable of adapting to SW weapons fire the fact is that they have shown the ability to adapt in other ways regarding tactics ect.

One cube?, yea i suppose it could easily toasted considering the Borgs rather odd way of opening a dialog then sitting still, but ultimatly the DS gets a hint of green in its colouring and the Borg collective gets a new and very large sphere.

There seems to be one Cube in this scenario.

[Mike DiCenso]

1. When the bioships open fire, the first geyser is seen moving away from the planet at what would be thousands of kilometers per second, yet approaches and hits the Borg Cube at a much slower speed (10 km/s or less). With the ejecta's initial velocity that's observed, gravity couldn't explain the severe reduction of speed.
2. The sphere of doom is seen expanding as fast as reaching twice the diameter of the planet within one second, yet again passes the Cubes at a speed that's about a few tens of km/s at best. You would say that the Cubes were then moving almost as fast as the fields of debris, therefore at more than a radius of that planet per second, which would be about 5~7 e6 m/s. But such is not true as the planet doesn't shrink in the slightest: we clearly see that the camera doesn't move away from the planet, which is the unavoidable consequence of flying that fast away from it.
The sphere passes through the Cube at a speed which would correspond to the kinetic energy you used for the calculation, and yet it's clearly the KE which would be dangerous here.

I actually happen to be able to check the video frame by frame, and it takes five frames for a Cube to be completely engulfed inside the white sphere. That's about a fifth of a second. Nothing considerable here.

If the cube is 3 km wide, that's 15 km/s. Since the wall that kills Cubes is largely transparent, there's not much matter here. It's just worth an expanding cloud of dust and debris. Nothing fancy, but somehow Cubes are sensitive to that.

The spray of red molten material might be slowling down, or it might be chaulked up to dramatic license when it hits the Borg cube as would be the case with the CME strike against the Daedalus from "Echoes". But the damage done to the cubeship shields had little or nothing to do with the geyser spray of debris. It was the result of the first boship passing by and firing on the cube directly with it's beam weapon. When the planet explodes, some of that will be kinetic energy debris, but most of that will be the sheer EM radiation that such a violent and powerful event would release.

Thus most of your objections to this are not valid. You are trying to argue really via a nitpick of an FX issue with the energy and everything possibly slowing down, and therefore is less energetic because it's all KE, when we can see that it is not. In turn you argue against your own proposition by noting that all three Borg cubeships are accelerating away from the planet, and thus the energy shockwave is hitting the cubeship from a relative frame of reference as we have nothing really prior to judge it from (they were stationary, then they fled before the planet exploded to save Voyager). It is also entirely possible that the two trailing Borg ships sacrificed themselves by shielded the one towing Voyager, thus negating some of the effects.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

1. When the bioships open fire, the first geyser is seen moving away from the planet at what would be thousands of kilometers per second, yet approaches and hits the Borg Cube at a much slower speed (10 km/s or less). With the ejecta's initial velocity that's observed, gravity couldn't explain the severe reduction of speed.
2. The sphere of doom is seen expanding as fast as reaching twice the diameter of the planet within one second, yet again passes the Cubes at a speed that's about a few tens of km/s at best. You would say that the Cubes were then moving almost as fast as the fields of debris, therefore at more than a radius of that planet per second, which would be about 5~7 e6 m/s. But such is not true as the planet doesn't shrink in the slightest: we clearly see that the camera doesn't move away from the planet, which is the unavoidable consequence of flying that fast away from it.
The sphere passes through the Cube at a speed which would correspond to the kinetic energy you used for the calculation, and yet it's clearly the KE which would be dangerous here.

I actually happen to be able to check the video frame by frame, and it takes five frames for a Cube to be completely engulfed inside the white sphere. That's about a fifth of a second. Nothing considerable here.

If the cube is 3 km wide, that's 15 km/s. Since the wall that kills Cubes is largely transparent, there's not much matter here. It's just worth an expanding cloud of dust and debris. Nothing fancy, but somehow Cubes are sensitive to that.

The spray of red molten material might be slowling down, or it might be chaulked up to dramatic license when it hits the Borg cube as would be the case with the CME strike against the Daedalus from "Echoes". But the damage done to the cubeship shields had little or nothing to do with the geyser spray of debris. It was the result of the first boship passing by and firing on the cube directly with it's beam weapon. When the planet explodes, some of that will be kinetic energy debris, but most of that will be the sheer EM radiation that such a violent and powerful event would release.

1. What is your evidence of the massive amount of EM being emitted? What is your evidence that it would surpass the energy released under the kinetic form?
2. The Cubes were destroyed precisely when the milky veil passed over them, not by EM that would cross space much faster.

Thus most of your objections to this are not valid. You are trying to argue really via a nitpick of an FX issue with the energy and everything possibly slowing down, and therefore is less energetic because it's all KE, when we can see that it is not.

What we can see is that what takes the Cubes down is certainly not EMR. It's an expanding surface of smoke and debris which moves at a speed that is just too silly low.
It's a sequence that's good looking and that's how far it goes.

In turn you argue against your own proposition by noting that all three Borg cubeships are accelerating away from the planet, and thus the energy shockwave is hitting the cubeship from a relative frame of reference as we have nothing really prior to judge it from (they were stationary, then they fled before the planet exploded to save Voyager).

I notice that they fly away, but in order to almost outrun the white sphere that expands to something like one planetary radius per second or more, the Cubes would need to move just as fast.
So would the camera, since it still stays relatively close to the Cubes. But the the whole group Cubes+camera were moving away from the planet as fast as needed, we'd see the planet shrink (that's what happens when you fly away from a planet at more than a planetary radius per second).

It is also entirely possible that the two trailing Borg ships sacrificed themselves by shielded the one towing Voyager, thus negating some of the effects.
-Mike

It's highly conjectural and not necessary. It also changes nothing to the problem here.

[Praeothmin]

I don't see any problem with Alderaan, since there's nothing on screen safe the planet blowing up that would reveal a major VFX error besides sheer VFX age.

So the speed and limited quantity of the ejecta supports all the Warsie calculations?
Doesn't look like it to me.

[Mr. Oragahn]

I don't see any problem with Alderaan, since there's nothing on screen safe the planet blowing up that would reveal a major VFX error besides sheer VFX age.

So the speed and limited quantity of the ejecta supports all the Warsie calculations?

I didn't say so. I merely pointed out that the scene in ANH doesn't reveal glaring scaling issues. What they calculated or not isn't my problem here. And I would certainly not begin to say that they were correct considering all the time I actually spent precisely proving the contrary.

[Praeothmin]

I don't see any problem with Alderaan, since there's nothing on screen safe the planet blowing up that would reveal a major VFX error besides sheer VFX age.

So the speed and limited quantity of the ejecta supports all the Warsie calculations?

I didn't say so. I merely pointed out that the scene in ANH doesn't reveal glaring scaling issues. What they calculated or not isn't my problem here. And I would certainly not begin to say that they were correct considering all the time I actually spent precisely proving the contrary.

Oh, sorry, you were simply mentioning the scaling...
Sorry, I thought you were also talking about the power derived from the shot... :(

[Mr. Oragahn]

Oh, sorry, you were simply mentioning the scaling...
Sorry, I thought you were also talking about the power derived from the shot... :(

You go straight to my dungeon.

[Youngla0450]

There are many ways a DS could blast a Borg cube however we know how the borg operate and that the first cube is mearly the first of many and while il not get into the ins and outs of if they are capable of adapting to SW weapons fire the fact is that they have shown the ability to adapt in other ways regarding tactics ect.

One cube?, yea i suppose it could easily toasted considering the Borgs rather odd way of opening a dialog then sitting still, but ultimatly the DS gets a hint of green in its colouring and the Borg collective gets a new and very large sphere.

I doubt that will happen.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

There are many ways a DS could blast a Borg cube however we know how the borg operate and that the first cube is mearly the first of many and while il not get into the ins and outs of if they are capable of adapting to SW weapons fire the fact is that they have shown the ability to adapt in other ways regarding tactics ect.

One cube?, yea i suppose it could easily toasted considering the Borgs rather odd way of opening a dialog then sitting still, but ultimatly the DS gets a hint of green in its colouring and the Borg collective gets a new and very large sphere.

I doubt that will happen.

The fact is that doing so is typical Borg behaviour, killing a cube is mearly the first step in assimilation as they learn from every fight and every loss they virtually ARE the epitome of the term "investing in loss".

[Youngla0450]

The Borg are ignorant aliens. They always open a battle with that ignorant speech of their's, attack in a front line, and charge ahead, continously, ignoring significant damage incurred. The story by Wong showed how the Borg could be defeated.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

The Borg are ignorant aliens. They always open a battle with that ignorant speech of their's, attack in a front line, and charge ahead, continously, ignoring significant damage incurred.

It is how they learn, each ship shot at or even killed adds more knowledge about the weapons they are facing and how to counter them. They are not a bunch of individuals who may some times look after number one and say screw the rest of you they are essebtially a single mind spread over the entire collective and the ships, individual borg and planets are mearly the physical extensions of that mind.

Losing a ship is as important to them in the big picture as you or i getting a pin prick or scraping a knee, they heal their skin gets tougher and they keep going relentlessly.

The story by Wong showed how the Borg could be defeated.

I have no interest in reading his crap and i have no idea what he dreamed up to beat the entire collective if that is what you are claiming he did.

[Praeothmin]

Plus we saw that, when threatened to be wiped out, the Borg in FC beamed a small force on the E-E and slowly took over, unknown.

They very well could do the same thing to the DS.
As soon as they approach the DS, they sense the power of the weapon that will be used against them, so they beam a force in the DS that starts assimilating it.
Since no one in SW knows how to deal with the Borg, then the DS will most likely become the new Borg Unimatrix... :)

Of course, if Vader is on the DS when the Borg beam on, then things might change a bit... :)

[Mr. Oragahn]

Plus we saw that, when threatened to be wiped out, the Borg in FC beamed a small force on the E-E and slowly took over, unknown.

They very well could do the same thing to the DS.
As soon as they approach the DS, they sense the power of the weapon that will be used against them, so they beam a force in the DS that starts assimilating it.
Since no one in SW knows how to deal with the Borg, then the DS will most likely become the new Borg Unimatrix... :)

Of course, if Vader is on the DS when the Borg beam on, then things might change a bit... :)

The Cube in FC wasn't the first contact with humans. The Borg, here, will have no former experience with the Empire to rely on. Most importantly, what took place in FC occurred at a slow pace and that happened as the Borg knew they were in an inferior position and couldn't rely on their own timeshift capable glorified emergency lifepod. They clearly had no safety, no real superiority here.

The Death Star will eat the Cube before the Borg have time to finish their welcome speech. :)
The raping here will be quite graphic.

[Praeothmin]

You may be right...