TCW CGI show and The State of the Debate

[Praeothmin]

Well what do you know. Our own "large" galaxy described as not only "modest" but "quite modest". If I were to use your broken logic I would reach the conclusion SW galaxy is actually much larger than Milky Way since it's only "modest" and not "quite modest".

Actually, your article is helping, rather then hampering.
In its context, with the full quote:

On the largest scales, spiral galaxies (such as our Milky Way and the Great Galaxy of Andromeda) are known to dwell in extended groups of galaxies called groups and clusters. Our own group (the Local Group) is small in mass and extent while its two largest members, though large by spiral galaxy standards, are quite modest in comparison to the largest galaxies known to astronomers (the giant ellipticals).

See, when presented in its entirety, the quote does say that our Galaxy, the Milky way, is a large one ("On the largest scales), just not as large as the larger ones.
It does not make it smaller then the average galaxies, nd is considered modest only when compared to larger bodies.
The problem for your interpretation is, in the SW novel, it just states "modest", with no relation to anything.
Therefore, it is a lot more logical to use "modest" in a general size relation, where our Milky Way is part of the average, if not slightly greater (while being smaller, i.e., more "modest" then the largest Galaxies)... :)

[Kane Starkiller]

I really shouldn't do this, because Kane's obviously super-desperate right now what with the whole 'you must ignore 'modest', but you don't so we can't even talk about ship combat!' absurdity . . . but I did request his input, so . . .

LOL yeah you totally convinced everyone on this board. Wait a sec...everyone on this board already did agree with you.

"Starship Down" was within the high pressure of a gas giant. It did show a large area of gases affected, but we don't know what to expect in that environment precisely. "Equinox" featured a single phaser shot during reentry that missed, and we can't see where it hit, so that's a bogus claim on your part.

"Dragon's Teeth" featured phaser shots against fighters within a kilometer or two . . . hits observed against Voyager were against shields and from an unknown weapon. You might be able to work with that episode, but at the same time you'd have to realize that even if you proved your case, it would simply be as much of an outlier as TDiC.

Since the pressure in Starship Down was high we would expect something between our own atmosphere and, say, underwater explosion. No such thing. You're right about "Equinox" but I do hope you remember that scene (Voyager directly behind Equinox, few hundred meters apart) next time you think TCW shows lousy accuracy. Dragon's Teeth showed Voyager getting hit and threatened by weapons that clearly didn't create mushroom clouds. Their nature and technology behind them is about as "known" as turbolaser technology.

For Star Wars, however, we have zero on-screen evidence of even kiloton-level weaponry. The one thing we do have is from the RotS novelization, but even then it's vague enough to leave wiggle room. I've quite kindly and generously concluded about 1.5 megatons . . . but it could go orders of magnitude lower for consistency with the rest of the canon.

No you haven't. For your "mad overkill" scenario you model a town as a featureless flat plane with a single Mustang on the city limits. Put in some more cars, buildings etc. between the epicentre and the car and you'll have something approaching a reasonable estimate. Include the underground structures like basements, sewer and plumbing and you'll start approaching the "mad overkill".

Lol! Are you that new? You guys have been arguing for Trek spitball range and claiming light-minute ranges for how long?

Gotta love these attempts to equate "me" with official SW publications like ICS. Hint: fanboys claiming certain ranges on internet forums is not the same as those ranges being stated on the official SW material no matter what you think of the author personally.

Yes, but unlike Star Wars, we have just as many examples of long range (tens of thousands of km) fire.

Examples where people say that they are engaging at long ranges. Too bad visuals override character statements.

Not at all. Space and lame plastic are not contrary . . . the Jedi weren't even wearing the plastic. Why would plastic armor not work in space? It isn't like the armor itself was ever thought to be airtight. And of course we know there's something fishy going on, what with the whole Blue Shadow thing.

And as for vision, I thought you guys claimed the helmets had all that nightvision and binoculars and other sensor data integrated into the helmet.

So where are those Wong/Saxtonian supersoldiers with complete NBC protection and blah blah blah?

Well of course. They built a plastic space worthy armor. But it's not actually space worthy but they actually built a suit that obviously has a pressurized oxygen supply and is almost airtight but they didn't go the extra mile to make it completely airtight. We know this because in one other episode they got infected and there is no possible way to reconcile this by them having been careless or having malfunctioning/damaged suits.

On the largest scales, spiral galaxies (such as our Milky Way and the Great Galaxy of Andromeda) are known to dwell in extended groups of galaxies called groups and clusters. Our own group (the Local Group) is small in mass and extent while its two largest members, though large by spiral galaxy standards, are quite modest in comparison to the largest galaxies known to astronomers (the giant ellipticals).

See, when presented in its entirety, the quote does say that our Galaxy, the Milky way, is a large one ("On the largest scales), just not as large as the larger ones.
It does not make it smaller then the average galaxies, nd is considered modest only when compared to larger bodies.
The problem for your interpretation is, in the SW novel, it just states "modest", with no relation to anything.
Therefore, it is a lot more logical to use "modest" in a general size relation, where our Milky Way is part of the average, if not slightly greater (while being smaller, i.e., more "modest" then the largest Galaxies)... :)

LOL um yeah it is referred as "large". That was already included in the part I quoted, no need for the extra sentence you added. This doesn't change the fact it is also referred to as modest. Hence something can be "large" and "modest" at the same time.
Not that I thought you'd actually concede or anything.

[Mr. Oragahn]

That, you must have been living under a rock for ages.
Need you be reminded of the ranges claimed in the ICS? The case from the NJO about a massive destroyer firing across a star system?

This is yet another issue: your insistence of pretending that official SW sources and SW fans are one and the same. They are not. If the NJO and ICS state such ranges than that is the official SW material not something made up on discussion forums whether you agree with it or not.

I don't dispute its official status, but I pit this data against lower showings.
Shall we ignore all examples of shorter ranges?

While there are instances of long range engagement in both SW and ST the actual battles always take place at shorter ranges.

Yeah but as a I said, thus far I found more references of long range "outliers" in favour of ST than SW. Then, again, I don't pretend to have waded through a collection of all EU quotes and knowing them by name! :)

Well, DS9 really went down the shitter like TCWS as far as range is concerned. It's not like we haven't seen the E-D orbit a planet and conduct a precise phaser-based drilling operation (this shall put the phaser accuracy-range at 100-200 km), shooting missiles with same phasers or, more numerous, examples of torpedoes crossing great distances.

Globally, if you compare the ranges' high ends, I find that there are more of them in favour of ST, notably with torps, than for SW, but I'm not absolutely aware of all range claims either, notably through the support of specific examples from the SWEU.

And there are also instances like Rebel Ion Canon striking the ISD at ranges in thousands of km in Empire Strikes Back. There are such examples on both sides.

Indeed, but this is a large cannon. Mind you, the planetary turbolaser KDy w-165, with its 150 meters wide platform, is given a range of 1,100~9,600 km in the New Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology. This same source gives the planetary ion cannon a range of 4,000~180,000 km. Projectile speed would matter as well. A sluggish ship that doesn't attempt any evading maneuver, such as an ISD confidently taking its time to blockade any craft, would be a good target. Interestingly, such a range also explains the advantage the Death Star's superlaser range represented, in comparison to the best planetary weapon that existed then.
That said, the same book gives ranges for proton torpedoes to be 200~600 m, and concussion missiles to be slightly better, with 700 meters. They're optimum ranges. Since these values don't really make much sense, I suppose that could correspond to the distance at which they can constantly burn fuel at max thrust.
For the proton torpedo, its own shielding could be another limiting factor though. The one dropping in the Death Star shaft need not to burn fuel constantly, but make sure not to crash.
It gives also a range of 10~80 km for regular capital ion cannons, 8~80 km for fighters' laser cannons, 15-100 km for turbolasers (logically the 100 km mark is for the largest pieces).

From what I saw in terms of firepower, range and, above all, the ability to travel via FTL over unknown territories, it will be at pain to curb the AQ alone, at least until they get a decent star chart.
Let's not mention the Borg, or the Dominion's forces, aside from what they were left with once the wormhole got stuffed.

And as we're talking about ship numbers, here's a demonstration of unchecked wank, typical of SDN: SDN: Naboo blockade and fleet numbers.
See the Dominion fleet parked over a planet in the pictures linked to by Mike, at the end of the thread?

I've seen no such thing. Range is pretty much the same if you are talking about a standard battle, there is no evidence for a firepower disparity in Federation favor and all this talk about "unknown territories" FTL problems comes from them using starcharts. So what? We use maps today, they help, it doesn't mean somehow our ships are ten times slower without them.

Considering the way hyperdrives work, as evidenced by Han's well known commentary to Luke, there's no doubt that a fleet couldn't decide to move haphazardly without knowing where potential obstables are located. And then, by making short jumps and looking at space by waiting photons to travel distances, the data the Empire's ships would obtain would often be out of date. One year too late for a range of 1 light year.

As for the Borg the first thing is to agree at least on how Empire vs Federation would go until we expand it to other races.

Indeed.

As for the Dominion fleet did anyone ever claim it doesn't possess 1000+ ships? Or are you saying those images prove the existence of even more ships which they don't.

These images prove the existence of a very large fleet, and that's from what was left. We never really saw the Dominion's full might before they dropped the war axe.
Well at least I don't remember seeing such a thing.

Although I didn't agree with JMS about the nomenclature, iirc, the question was interesting nonetheless. The hassle the ponderous DS1 had to go through to shoot at Yavin IV was more than puzzling.
A truly independent and mobile spaceship would have not been forced to lock itself into orbit of the gas giant Yavin.
Mind you, we could also wonder if the gas giant's gravity, or the local star's gravity didn't actually force the battle station into such a position, since we can safely consider that any decently updated star map would know, by the second, where all the planets of the Yavin system would be.
This would suggest that a battle station of that size and mass came with another limitation in how it could be placed.

Plus, as a related note, the funny idea that the Death Star and its n e32 J of energy couldn't even fire through the superior part of the Yavin's redish atmosphere: the amount of energy absorbed by the top layer of the atmosphere would have been peanuts. Unless of course the true energy of the super laser was more in the teraton/petaton range, and any interaction with an obstacle's matter would have weakened the beam and perhaps even disrupted it, if not literally dissipated the technobabble effect into the gas giant.

See, all simple observations to make, but which SDN keeps at bay. The debate is probably dead over there for the mere fact that SDN is playing dead and resting on old notions which are considered unchallenged over there, but only over there.
LalaLand, in other words.

See all of these "problems" assume that the command crew of Death Star had the same sense of urgency as the viewers. They didn't. From their perspective Death Star was indestructible and they were content to glide to the firing point and blow the target out of the sky. Even when some crewmembers warned Tarkin that there is a possibility of success he didn't listen.

That's another way to look at it, sure. But I find it odd that Tarkin would actually plan to leave the Rebels thirty minutes to evac the base, especially considering the possibility that they could already know who's coming for dinner.

[Mr. Oragahn]

I have to agree, I also think a 10:1 difference is ridiculous.
If we take the averaging of all examples for ST and SW, I believe we are closer to a 1:1 ratio then anything else...

Somehow, considering the rate of fire of the warships, and how many cannons they possess, then on the basis that a turbolaser is worth low megatons (depends on the understanding of "vapourize" though), I think it's fair to consider than a single ISD shall provide much more firepower than any UFP "war"ship.

And there are also instances like Rebel Ion Canon striking the ISD at ranges in thousands of km in Empire Strikes Back.

If you're talking about the ISD that was about to capture the Rebel ship, it was at most at a range of a few hundred km, not thousands of km away...

No no, it's really thousands of km. I suppose that it should be relatively easy to guess the distance, since the ISD cuts Hoth's horizon.

• • 

[Mr. Oragahn]

Well what do you know. Our own "large" galaxy described as not only "modest" but "quite modest". If I were to use your broken logic I would reach the conclusion SW galaxy is actually much larger than Milky Way since it's only "modest" and not "quite modest".

Actually, your article is helping, rather then hampering.
In its context, with the full quote:

On the largest scales, spiral galaxies (such as our Milky Way and the Great Galaxy of Andromeda) are known to dwell in extended groups of galaxies called groups and clusters. Our own group (the Local Group) is small in mass and extent while its two largest members, though large by spiral galaxy standards, are quite modest in comparison to the largest galaxies known to astronomers (the giant ellipticals).

See, when presented in its entirety, the quote does say that our Galaxy, the Milky way, is a large one ("On the largest scales), just not as large as the larger ones.
It does not make it smaller then the average galaxies, nd is considered modest only when compared to larger bodies.
The problem for your interpretation is, in the SW novel, it just states "modest", with no relation to anything.
Therefore, it is a lot more logical to use "modest" in a general size relation, where our Milky Way is part of the average, if not slightly greater (while being smaller, i.e., more "modest" then the largest Galaxies)... :)

The "largest scale" bit doesn't refer to the size of any galaxy per se, but how big is the area observed.
If the SW galaxy is found in a denser cluster, with much larger galaxies, then modest is all relative to these bigger neighbours.

[Jedi Master Spock]

Whether or not you'd care to call it a warship, the Death Star is certainly not capable of much in terms of sublight maneuvering - nor is its construction and engineering the same type of problem as an ISD. You can say it is more impressive, you can say it is less, but it is certainly remarkably different.

If you like, we can have a fresh thread about the Death Star or resume the old one. It's been a little while, I think, and our perspectives may have changed some.

I think there are two points worth underlining that Kane has said so far:

One, the debate is not strictly about the ICS. There is also the Star Trek side to consider, and the disparity between, say, my estimates of the how much usable power a GCS can crank at full (e.g., 4x10^20 watts peak) and the sort of claims we will typically see made by SDN partisans on other forums (no more than terawatt "effective" power levels are a common "opening" claim by such as Point45) are large.

Two, there's a fairly limited amount of information we can get from vague adjectives in descriptions. It's nice to say that the Star Wars galaxy is "modest" in size, but it's not especially quantifiable, and the most debatable things which are relevant to it aren't much affected by the conclusions. First, claims about SW hyperdrive speeds are already quite fuzzy on the basis of evidence which had nothing to do with the size of the SW galaxy (given times/distances in pc or LY). Second, the number of worlds in the Empire is already covered thoroughly in the movie-level canon anyway, in a way that doesn't rely at all on the size of the galaxy.

[2046]

Since the pressure in Starship Down was high we would expect something between our own atmosphere and, say, underwater explosion. No such thing.

That statement reveals your deep misunderstanding of science.

The Defiant was within a gas giant's turbulent atmosphere, with 10,000km/h and higher winds. Pressure varied where they were but reached as high as 850+MPa, about 8700 atmospheres. That's several times more pressure than at the bottom of the Marianas Trench. Underwater nuclear explosions have never occurred at greater than low double-digit atmospheres, and never in the presence of such profound thermal layering, winds, and high pressure gases.

You're right about "Equinox" but I do hope you remember that scene (Voyager directly behind Equinox, few hundred meters apart) next time you think TCW shows lousy accuracy.

One miss during re-entry (when even radio is blocked, not to mention visibility shot) and you want me to consider their accuracy equal? Are you mad?

Dragon's Teeth showed Voyager getting hit and threatened by weapons that clearly didn't create mushroom clouds.

Would they against shields? We never saw hits on the ship when unshielded, unlike TCW. There we see sub-kiloton unshielded hull breaching shots.

Their nature and technology behind them is about as "known" as turbolaser technology.

Vaadwaur particle cannons are as known as turbolaser tech? I don't think so. A single episode of Voyager versus hours of Star Wars? Novelization and script descriptions?

For Star Wars, however, we have zero on-screen evidence of even kiloton-level weaponry. The one thing we do have is from the RotS novelization, but even then it's vague enough to leave wiggle room. I've quite kindly and generously concluded about 1.5 megatons . . . but it could go orders of magnitude lower for consistency with the rest of the canon.

No you haven't. For your "mad overkill" scenario you model a town as a featureless flat plane with a single Mustang on the city limits. Put in some more cars, buildings etc.

If the nuke would vape a Mustang at range, you don't think it would do worse closer by? Besides . . . that is being literal, which is contradicted by the author's other uses of vaporized, e.g. a droid fighter that Anakin's cannons vaporize. More likely, we can think of it as the sort of vaporization that was done to Hiroshima . . . non-literal, and 15 kilotons worth.

In any case, thanks for failing to answer the zero on-screen evidence of even kiloton-level weaponry.

Lol! Are you that new? You guys have been arguing for Trek spitball range and claiming light-minute ranges for how long?

Gotta love these attempts to equate "me" with official SW publications like ICS.

I asked for you to provide evidence of Wong/Saxtonian yields. You responded with a bunch of red herrings about Star Trek, including a false claim that only Trekkies have ever argued weapon ranges. And when I reply to that, you throw up a new smokescreen about equating you with a book? What the hell is that even supposed to mean?

I realize you're having profound difficulties, here, but can you get back on some semblance of topic?

Yes, but unlike Star Wars, we have just as many examples of long range (tens of thousands of km) fire.

Examples where people say that they are engaging at long ranges. Too bad visuals override character statements.

1. They don't.
2. Even if they did, it would only be in the case of direct contradiction . . . e.g. looking out the window and saying "he's 90,000 kilometers away!" when you can see the ship damn near docked. Usually, a cut from the bridge to the outside view is also accepted.

However, you're apparently trying to claim that short-range examples from entirely different episodes/series override uncontradicted long-range examples.

That's pretty retarded, and not even worth further typing on my part.

Well of course. They built a plastic space worthy armor. But it's not actually space worthy but they actually built a suit that obviously has a pressurized oxygen supply and is almost airtight but they didn't go the extra mile to make it completely airtight. We know this because in one other episode they got infected and there is no possible way to reconcile this by them having been careless or having malfunctioning/damaged suits.

That doesn't even make sense. An emergency pressure suit as standard gear compared to a proper space outfitting starts to make sense, but your suggestion that 100% of trooper uniforms malfunction or are misused in a deadly airborne virus situation pretty much makes them useless. I realize character stupidity is the favorite pro-ubertech scapegoat of SDN types, but save for obvious stupidity (e.g. Jar-Jar) I don't think that sort of thing flies.

By the way, you should also drop the galaxy size red herring of yours, because you are making a fool of yourself. Not that this is unprecedented, mind you, but I'm just trying to be helpful here.

[The Dude]

There is a simple explanation for the virus/chemical/whatever weapon that got the Clones through the armour; the filters don't protect against everything or breakdown in the presence of certain agents. Real world gas mask filters do the same thing when exposed to things like Sarin. Certain biological agents are capable of working their way through filters as well.

So it need not be the Clone Armour Awesome/Clone Armour Sucks! that is the favourite of arm chair generals on the net.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Well, we know at least that a ship that would mass 1,000,000 tons, and accelerates at 10g, is already capable of providing terawatts of energy to whatever system it uses to move around.

I wonder what kind of output a turbolaser sized lightsabre would have...

[Kane Starkiller]

That statement reveals your deep misunderstanding of science.

The Defiant was within a gas giant's turbulent atmosphere, with 10,000km/h and higher winds. Pressure varied where they were but reached as high as 850+MPa, about 8700 atmospheres. That's several times more pressure than at the bottom of the Marianas Trench. Underwater nuclear explosions have never occurred at greater than low double-digit atmospheres, and never in the presence of such profound thermal layering, winds, and high pressure gases.

None of this changes the fact we should've seen surrounding gasses turned into superheated plasma and the resulting pressure waves.

One miss during re-entry (when even radio is blocked, not to mention visibility shot) and you want me to consider their accuracy equal? Are you mad?

It was right in front of them and the skies were clear. There is no excuse.

Would they against shields? We never saw hits on the ship when unshielded, unlike TCW. There we see sub-kiloton unshielded hull breaching shots.

So? The shield absorbs the incoming shots and then reflects them back. Unless you are claiming that the shield converts the incoming energy into something harmless like neutrinos but that couldn't be since we know how dismissive you were of that theory.

Vaadwaur particle cannons are as known as turbolaser tech? I don't think so. A single episode of Voyager versus hours of Star Wars? Novelization and script descriptions?

What difference does it make how many times we've seen them? We still have no idea on what science principles they operate.


Of course these are not the only examples of atmospheric battle. "Once more unto the breach" comes to mind. This one has it all: ultra low ranges requiring them to skim the building on the ground, lousy accuracy and zero kiloton level events.
I wonder what excuses you'll have lined up for that one.

If the nuke would vape a Mustang at range, you don't think it would do worse closer by? Besides . . . that is being literal, which is contradicted by the author's other uses of vaporized, e.g. a droid fighter that Anakin's cannons vaporize. More likely, we can think of it as the sort of vaporization that was done to Hiroshima . . . non-literal, and 15 kilotons worth.

In any case, thanks for failing to answer the zero on-screen evidence of even kiloton-level weaponry.

It said vaporized the meaning of which is pretty clear: turn to vapor. Hiroshima was not vaporized, not even close. Need I remind you that Hiroshima Peace Memorial, which was 150m from ground zero, still stands.
There is a 10m asteroid that gets vaporized as it impacts the shields of one of the ISDs in Empire Strikes Back. That's 4 kilotons imparted on the asteroid by shields.

I asked for you to provide evidence of Wong/Saxtonian yields. You responded with a bunch of red herrings about Star Trek, including a false claim that only Trekkies have ever argued weapon ranges. And when I reply to that, you throw up a new smokescreen about equating you with a book? What the hell is that even supposed to mean?

I realize you're having profound difficulties, here, but can you get back on some semblance of topic?

Defending ICS was not my intention here merely exposing your groundless implication that by eliminating ICS the debate is over.

1. They don't.
2. Even if they did, it would only be in the case of direct contradiction . . . e.g. looking out the window and saying "he's 90,000 kilometers away!" when you can see the ship damn near docked. Usually, a cut from the bridge to the outside view is also accepted.

However, you're apparently trying to claim that short-range examples from entirely different episodes/series override uncontradicted long-range examples.

That's pretty retarded, and not even worth further typing on my part.

1. Yes they do. Or do you claim Bajor has no moons?
2. Sure you can. If an Intrepid is forced to enter the atmosphere in pursuit of Equinox that obviously casts doubt on any incident where character claimed they were engaging ships at thousands of tens of thousands of km.

That doesn't even make sense. An emergency pressure suit as standard gear compared to a proper space outfitting starts to make sense, but your suggestion that 100% of trooper uniforms malfunction or are misused in a deadly airborne virus situation pretty much makes them useless. I realize character stupidity is the favorite pro-ubertech scapegoat of SDN types, but save for obvious stupidity (e.g. Jar-Jar) I don't think that sort of thing flies.

I said there are many possible explanations. Limited oxygen supply that forced them to take outside air is also an explanation. The point is that suits obviously can provide a great amount of protection from chemical and biological weapons, since they are at the very least, near air tight.

By the way, you should also drop the galaxy size red herring of yours, because you are making a fool of yourself. Not that this is unprecedented, mind you, but I'm just trying to be helpful here.

Too bad I'm right about the size and all you have are insults.

Whether or not you'd care to call it a warship, the Death Star is certainly not capable of much in terms of sublight maneuvering - nor is its construction and engineering the same type of problem as an ISD. You can say it is more impressive, you can say it is less, but it is certainly remarkably different.

If you like, we can have a fresh thread about the Death Star or resume the old one. It's been a little while, I think, and our perspectives may have changed some.

Of course it cannot maneuver nearly as good as an ISD: it's 10 million times bigger. I already made that point in the other thread as well as providing sources explicitly stating that Death Star has sublight engines. If you will continue to reject any EU sources that explicitly state that Death Star has sublight engines because other sources do not explicitly mention them then our perspectives have not changed really. Of course I'm not saying that 1 Death Star is precisely equal to 10 million Star Destroyers but it points to the general order of magnitude.

Two, there's a fairly limited amount of information we can get from vague adjectives in descriptions. It's nice to say that the Star Wars galaxy is "modest" in size, but it's not especially quantifiable, and the most debatable things which are relevant to it aren't much affected by the conclusions. First, claims about SW hyperdrive speeds are already quite fuzzy on the basis of evidence which had nothing to do with the size of the SW galaxy (given times/distances in pc or LY). Second, the number of worlds in the Empire is already covered thoroughly in the movie-level canon anyway, in a way that doesn't rely at all on the size of the galaxy.

I hope we are not back to "10,000 system are one of two parts->two means two equal halves->Republic has 20,000 systems" broken logic. There is no evidence that two means half, that Palpatine was referring to number of planets rather than the total population and economic power, that Palpatine wasn't talking about possible further fragmentation of the Republic etc. In short nothing said in the films is in slightest contradiction with explicit statements from the novelization which put the number of planets to 100,000-1,000,000 worlds.
As for hyperdrive, ITW of Episode 1 for example, puts Tattoine at 43,000ly from the core and Coruscant 10,000ly from the core with Coruscant being on the opposite side.

[l33telboi]

So basically Kane is saying that since nuclear-scale atmospheric effects are not observed in some Trek incidents, we must dismiss all evidence where there actually is a lot of measurable energy involved - like "Sleeping Dogs". That runs pretty contrary to the rules that have been set up for versus debating. And while doing this he's maintaining that the novelization line about 'vaporized' should be taken as the literal truth and disregard everything else. Sad truth is that people say vaporized when all they mean is exploded quite often. What’s next? A ship is said to be ‘pounded into oblivion’ and we should assume that the weapons have some form of technobabble component that pushes ships into another dimension? Or should we assume that Lord Vader himself has enough watts to crush the Rebellion when he says he has the power to crush the rebellion?

Besides that, why on earth should we accept C-canon above T and G-canon? And yes, the novel statement is C-canon unless you can prove it comes directly from George Lucas. Because the elements in the novelizations that are G-canon are those that directly come GL himself, and only those. The rest is C-canon. Just like Leeland Chee has said.

I'm afraid capship turbolaser firepower is decidedly sub-kiloton. With gigajoule scale physical impacts being able to bring down shields and destroy ships as large as the Venator-class.

Besides, an effective assault couldn’t be mounted with hyperdrive. There’s been 20,000 plus years of development in the Star Wars galaxy and they’ve managed to explore and populate a little over two thirds of their own galaxy. With dense star-clusters, nebulas, etc, making certain areas inaccessible. Yeah, hyperdrive is fast as long as you have a good hyperspace lane between point A and point B. If you don't, then you either aren't going to get to point B, or then you're going to get there very slowly.

I said there are many possible explanations. Limited oxygen supply that forced them to take outside air is also an explanation. The point is that suits obviously can provide a great amount of protection from chemical and biological weapons, since they are at the very least, near air tight.

No. The decoded version of the Blue Shadow Virus episode tells us that the helmets can't protect the clones from the Blue Shadow Virus. Therefore these suits obviously can't provide great amount of protection from chemical and biological weapons.

As for hyperdrive, ITW of Episode 1 for example, puts Tattoine at 43,000ly from the core and Coruscant 10,000ly from the core with Coruscant being on the opposite side.

If you're going to use something like a map from the EU of all places, then make sure you're up-to-date. The Essential Atlas is the latest source to detail the location of planets and the distances between them.

[Praeothmin]

This doesn't change the fact it is also referred to as modest. Hence something can be "large" and "modest" at the same time.
Not that I thought you'd actually concede or anything.

Actually, Kane, I'm sure you don't remember, because it's been a while, but in that very debate we had about the size of the SW Galaxy, I had mentioned that I had always been more confortable about a 100 000-120 000 LY size myself.
My whole point, with which you agree (and JMS, indirectly), was that it is quite easy to show the Galaxy being many sizes given the context in which the word "modest" is used.
In the novel, being used without any references, we must use an galactic average, according to what we know.
What we have been able to discover is that, while our Galaxy is "modest" compared to the giants, it is large compared to the dwarves, thus it is average-sized in the parts of theuniverse we see.
That's the key words: "Compared to".
With those words comes a point of reference.
When none is given, you must use a known average...

Mr. O brought up another point (which had already been covered in our debate before, by you I believe) that perhaps the SW Galaxy is in a location where all the Galaxies are giant.
There's no indication of that, but it could be.

So tell you what Kane, we'll both agree to use the 100 000 ly size for the SW Galaxy, but I'll know I've demonstrated quite clearly how "modest", in the novel's context, could mean smaller then ours... :)
Thus, I also give SW the FTL speed advantage, in known territories...

Wait a sec...everyone on this board already did agree with you.

Actually, we really don't agree with him on everything.
I for one do not believe in the "plastic" armor bit, unless it's to consider it some sort of "composite armored plastic"...
Do I think it's a great armor?
The movies show it's not, but I still don't think it's cheap plastic... ;)

No no, it's really thousands of km. I suppose that it should be relatively easy to guess the distance, since the ISD cuts Hoth's horizon.

It seems that we have a greater angle here then in Kane's picture (or I just didn't notice)...
It does indeed seem, from that picture, to be far from the planet.
So thousands of kilometers it is then.
Kane' right... :)

If the SW galaxy is found in a denser cluster, with much larger galaxies, then modest is all relative to these bigger neighbours.

Yes, but we don't know that, and in fact, from the POV of Luke at the end of TESB, when he's looking at the other galaxy, they don't seem to be in such a dense cluster of Galaxies...

It's nice to say that the Star Wars galaxy is "modest" in size, but it's not especially quantifiable

I beg to differ, for the reasons mentioned before... :)

Second, the number of worlds in the Empire is already covered thoroughly in the movie-level canon anyway, in a way that doesn't rely at all on the size of the galaxy.

Eaxctly, in the ANH novel I believe, Tarkin specifically says 1 000 000 systems, so we know the Empire is widespread...

Too bad I'm right about the size and all you have are insults.

Right about the EU stated size, not about the "modest" interpretation... ;)

[2046]

Note: I don't think the armor's plastic either. Those are Kane's words. I think they could probably make plastic better than whatever it is they're using. I'm not saying it's not helpful at times, but it's not always that great. It certainly isn't the tank-shell-stopping ridiculousness heard of in some quarters.

That statement reveals your deep misunderstanding of science.

The Defiant was within a gas giant's turbulent atmosphere, with 10,000km/h and higher winds. Pressure varied where they were but reached as high as 850+MPa, about 8700 atmospheres. That's several times more pressure than at the bottom of the Marianas Trench. Underwater nuclear explosions have never occurred at greater than low double-digit atmospheres, and never in the presence of such profound thermal layering, winds, and high pressure gases.

None of this changes the fact we should've seen surrounding gasses turned into superheated plasma and the resulting pressure waves.

The surrounding gases turn to flame and the whole gaseous area recoils . . . it's a really neat looking effect. You should watch it sometime.

One miss during re-entry (when even radio is blocked, not to mention visibility shot) and you want me to consider their accuracy equal? Are you mad?

It was right in front of them and the skies were clear. There is no excuse.

So what was that fireball in front of the shields if not re-entry plasma?

Would they against shields? We never saw hits on the ship when unshielded, unlike TCW. There we see sub-kiloton unshielded hull breaching shots.

So? The shield absorbs the incoming shots and then reflects them back.

Ah, you've solved the long-standing questions regarding shields. They are lightsaber-bubbles! We'll ignore all the references to shields absorbing energy and just go with your view!

Unless you are claiming that the shield converts the incoming energy into something harmless like neutrinos but that couldn't be since we know how dismissive you were of that theory.

I'm dismissive of handwavium wanknology used to try to explain away clear contradiction with imagined high yields that have no proof behind them in the canon.

The idea itself is grand science fiction technology. It just has nothing to do with Star Wars. Trek might be able to pull it off, but the concept does not appear in Trek to my knowledge.

Vaadwaur particle cannons are as known as turbolaser tech? I don't think so. A single episode of Voyager versus hours of Star Wars? Novelization and script descriptions?

What difference does it make how many times we've seen them? We still have no idea on what science principles they operate.

Concession accepted regarding the Vaadwaur particle cannons, then. However, turbolaser operation is more clearly known. Not only do we have numerous examples of the behavior (far more than the handful of Vaadwaur shots), but we have assorted descriptions of the "galvened particle beam", a radioactive gas/plasma with some sort of "galvening" containment.

It is not enough to derive equations from, but it is enough for deduction and inference. That's a lot more than you can say for the Vaadwaur.

More later.

[Mr. Oragahn]

So basically Kane is saying that since nuclear-scale atmospheric effects are not observed in some Trek incidents, we must dismiss all evidence where there actually is a lot of measurable energy involved - like "Sleeping Dogs". That runs pretty contrary to the rules that have been set up for versus debating.

There's still the more or less intended effect of Skin of Evil. Although I criticized its quality, there is no doubt that a single torpedo made a large explosion.

And while doing this he's maintaining that the novelization line about 'vaporized' should be taken as the literal truth and disregard everything else. Sad truth is that people say vaporized when all they mean is exploded quite often. What’s next? A ship is said to be ‘pounded into oblivion’ and we should assume that the weapons have some form of technobabble component that pushes ships into another dimension? Or should we assume that Lord Vader himself has enough watts to crush the Rebellion when he says he has the power to crush the rebellion?

A documentary about the PEPCON disaster has the narrator talk about the explosive blast that vapourized a building. In reality, the building was merely leveled by the shockwave.
I have myself used that word without being always careful, failing to remember that it is also taken literally.

[Jedi Master Spock]

Of course it cannot maneuver nearly as good as an ISD: it's 10 million times bigger. I already made that point in the other thread as well as providing sources explicitly stating that Death Star has sublight engines. If you will continue to reject any EU sources that explicitly state that Death Star has sublight engines because other sources do not explicitly mention them then our perspectives have not changed really. Of course I'm not saying that 1 Death Star is precisely equal to 10 million Star Destroyers but it points to the general order of magnitude.

I see we do wish to revisit the topic, then.

I hope we are not back to "10,000 system are one of two parts->two means two equal halves->Republic has 20,000 systems" broken logic. There is no evidence that two means half, that Palpatine was referring to number of planets rather than the total population and economic power, that Palpatine wasn't talking about possible further fragmentation of the Republic etc. In short nothing said in the films is in slightest contradiction with explicit statements from the novelization which put the number of planets to 100,000-1,000,000 worlds.

The novelization references are what I'm referring to within the movie level - tens of thousands of worlds, a hundred thousand worlds, etc, it gives us a very good picture of the Empire. A million worlds, a hundred thousand of which were in the Republic, with power/wealth/population distributed unevenly among those (thus meaning that 10,000 of the wealthier worlds could cause quite a problem in a civil war) and sparsely in the rim.