The Size of the Alt Timeline Enterprise

[ILikeDeathNote]

Actually, if that's one of his reasons, he is forgetting that the appearance of a ship the size of the Narada (multiple kilometers long) would probably prompt Starfleet into re-thinking the size and power of it's ships.

And the Narada is a civilian mining vessel that probably can't stand up to a Prime-Verse Galaxy, though it's highly doubtful Starfleet was aware of this when they built the Alt-Enterprise.

But this isn't the first time that Bernd has been flummoxed by the size of spaceships in Trek. For example, Bernd could not deal with the canon fact that Starbase 74 is some 13 x 9 kilometers, and disregarded it completely on the basis that he could not except that the Federation could go and build a space station 10 times bigger than the Spacedock first seen in "The Search for Spock". It's like complaining that you can't except the existence of the Empire State Building because it is so much larger than the older Woolworth Building! Or like saying that the Queen Mary is impossible to build because you cannot conceive of someone being able to build a larger ship than the old Oceanic.
-Mike

I'm tempted to call Bernd "Wong's Best Trekkie Friend."

[Praeothmin]

Still, just looking at the viewscreen/window on the bridge, if it is 8 meters wide, as Bernd puts it, then looking at all the exterior shots of the E-Alt makes it in the 350-400 meters range, no longer...

Also, did anyone notice how, for once, the Bridge isn't on the very top of the ship?
It is near the top, but there is some sort of half-dome right over it, and not a transparent one either, so aside from the viewscreen/window, the Bridge is better protected then on other ships...

[GStone]

Even if the monsterprise is really 3-400 in length, the basis for his reasoning is off.

The sheer size of the new Enterprise is ludicrous.

This is not valid. Increased resources and manpower to build larger vessels is not out of the question, especially during a time of conflict. It'd be a bit harder to swallow during peace time, but because we know the Feds know one of their ships got the shit beat out of it by an enormous vessel, as was stated earlier, a bigger ship is not out of the question. Sometimes, you can't just advance the tech and keep vessels small. Sometimes, you have to go with superior firepower, shields and speed. The things also got more weapons. Should we ignore that, too, like we supposedly should with the hangar scene, as per Bernd? Plus, the power for those weapons has to come from somewhere. Making a Federation predator-ish ship (think the scimitar) out of a connie wouldn't be too out of the realm of possibility. That would also explain why the core was in 4 pieces. It could very well have been 4 smaller cores combined into 1 larger one.

Sometimes, size can be more intimidating than having better tech.

The proportions of the saucer, neck, engineering hull and nacelles are somewhat different than on either the TOS and the TMP Enterprise, but overall still similar enough to put it into the same size range.

Unless the proportions are because of a different design basis.

we would not expect all kinds of mid-sized and well-recognizable details such as phasers, thrusters, impulse engines, deflector dish, shuttlebay or bridge dome to change their sizes almost proportionally with the rest of the ship.

So, what should have been done was using a deflector dish of a Roddenberry TOS connie and have it be put in the monsterprise?

If the actual "Star Trek XI" Enterprise were more than twice as long, then the window arrangement in the saucer would be an incredibly stupid coincidence.

So, the best way to determine scaling is from the number of windows a ship has?

WTF?!?!?!?!

Adding more windows would have been crucial to insinuate a larger size, but overall the ship has about as many as the 300m long Enterprise refit.

You know, on planes for a long time, there have been panels that can be pulled down. In TNG, we've seen a thing pushed and another thing moves in front of the window. Is the monsterprise incapable of having this feature, too? It goes faster-than-fucking-light! Does having it interfere with warp field stability?!

The radically different looking engine room should not be taken as a sign that, if the technology inside the ship is different, the same should apply to its size.

This is the only thing that does make sense, but is still not a support of a 300 one.

[Mike DiCenso]

Actually, if that's one of his reasons, he is forgetting that the appearance of a ship the size of the Narada (multiple kilometers long) would probably prompt Starfleet into re-thinking the size and power of it's ships.

And the Narada is a civilian mining vessel that probably can't stand up to a Prime-Verse Galaxy, though it's highly doubtful Starfleet was aware of this when they built the Alt-Enterprise.

Possibly, or as the Countdown graphic novel shows us, the Narada was retrofitted with Borg technology. And yes, it's very unlikely that Starfleet didn't know anything at the time, only that they were facing an extremely powerful ship that identified itself as Romulan, and was crewed by a people that looked Vulcan.

But this isn't the first time that Bernd has been flummoxed by the size of spaceships in Trek. For example, Bernd could not deal with the canon fact that Starbase 74 is some 13 x 9 kilometers, and disregarded it completely on the basis that he could not except that the Federation could go and build a space station 10 times bigger than the Spacedock first seen in "The Search for Spock". It's like complaining that you can't except the existence of the Empire State Building because it is so much larger than the older Woolworth Building! Or like saying that the Queen Mary is impossible to build because you cannot conceive of someone being able to build a larger ship than the old Oceanic.
-Mike

I'm tempted to call Bernd "Wong's Best Trekkie Friend."

Now that's a bit unnecessarily harsh as Bernd has been attacked by Wong and his forum invaded by SDNers. It's just that for some things, Bernd is wrong, like any other human being. Unfortunately in this case he's being a bit stubbornly so.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

Still, just looking at the viewscreen/window on the bridge, if it is 8 meters wide, as Bernd puts it, then looking at all the exterior shots of the E-Alt makes it in the 350-400 meters range, no longer...

I'm going to be picking up the latest issue of the Star Trek Magazine, which has that same head-on image that was used in the pixel measurements, but in much, much better resolution, and see if the previous measurement of 500 meters holds up. I also paid more attention to the Iowa construction scenes, especially as kirk and McCoy's shuttle lifts off and flies around it, and then later as their Starfleet Academy shuttle does it's pseudo-ST:TMP fly around, and at times the ship does appear to be no less than 400-500 meters long. The scene where Kirk pulls up in the early morning on that hover bike and views the ship under construction for the first time more clearly shows that it is somewhere in the 500-700 meter range easily in comparison to the refinery facility-like structures and hangers. So, I would have to say that there are at least 4 seperate scenes pointing to an E-Alt well in excess of the 300 meters as Bernd wants it to be.

Also, did anyone notice how, for once, the Bridge isn't on the very top of the ship?
It is near the top, but there is some sort of half-dome right over it, and not a transparent one either, so aside from the viewscreen/window, the Bridge is better protected then on other ships...

Nah, it's under that greenish sensor dome, but it's not much better protected than any other bridge, especially with the window/HUD open to space like that. The E-D and the E-E have more structure surrounding their bridge on all sides except the top.
-Mike

[Praeothmin]

and at times the ship does appear to be no less than 400-500 meters long.

I, for one, have no issues with the ship being 400 meters long.
Which would be a good average for all those different lengths pointed at in the movie, depending on the scene...

The scene where Kirk pulls up in the early morning on that hover bike and views the ship under construction for the first time more clearly shows that it is somewhere in the 500-700 meter range easily in comparison to the refinery facility-like structures and hangers.

I don't know.
We don't have a clear idea of the distance he's standing at compared to the structures, which might affect the scaling, just like the chase scene between the MF and an ISD in TESB.
Also, I would like to see a 317 meter Nimits-Class carrier in the E-Alt's place at the yard, and see how it would compare in size...

but it's not much better protected than any other bridge, especially with the window/HUD open to space like that.

But it is a bit more protected... ;)

[ILikeDeathNote]

I, for one, have no issues with the ship being 400 meters long.
Which would be a good average for all those different lengths pointed at in the movie, depending on the scene...

In the end, the actual length of the Enterprise is immaterial. What matters is that the movie is good, and it seems like it delivers on that respect, at least.

Bernd's reaction just seems to be a variant of the common reaction of many Trekkies who fear that everything prior to the movie is now suddenly non-canon, or, to put it more graphically, a rape of their childhood and fandom. As prominent internet reviewer Noah Antweiler aka "Spoony" says, "your Original Series DVD collection won't suddenly become blank disks because of this movie!"

Of course there won't be a Nimitz-class carrier plopped in the middle of Iowa just for the sake of scaling, short of someone photoshopping one in and that would be no better than a best guess anyway.

[Praeothmin]

Of course there won't be a Nimitz-class carrier plopped in the middle of Iowa just for the sake of scaling, short of someone photoshopping one in and that would be no better than a best guess anyway.

Says who?
Why the heck could we not have an Aircraft Carrier built in Iowa?

Just kidding of course...
:)

[2046]

Incidentally, some have argued against the larger sizes based on the docking port size.

However, it is worth noting that the ejected pod emerges from a hole which is itself only 2/3rds the size of the whole docking port circle. That is, the actual door of the docking port is surrounded by more round stuff.

The assumption of TMP-esque simple docking port structures is invalid.

[Mike DiCenso]

Oh, I got a copy of the International Cinematographers Guild magazine with it's article on the Star Trek movie. On page 36, there is a great shot of the E-Alt leaving the station, giving a superb front profile of the ship, and at high resolution quality. The E-Alt measures 1.65", and the bridge HUD window measures 0.02" of an inch. Dividing 1.65 by .02 = 82.5 to 1. So assuming a 2 meter high window, that would make the E-Alt 165 meters tall. From the few side views I can gleen off the net and the movie stills, I'am guessing that the E-Alt has a 5 to 1 ratio of length to height, which means the it measures in at... 825 meters long!
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

Incidentally, some have argued against the larger sizes based on the docking port size.

However, it is worth noting that the ejected pod emerges from a hole which is itself only 2/3rds the size of the whole docking port circle. That is, the actual door of the docking port is surrounded by more round stuff.

The assumption of TMP-esque simple docking port structures is invalid.

One thing I noticed on second viewing is that the pod when launched and during the entry scenes is much rounder in shape than when we see it landed in the crater and Kirk crawls out from it, which in turn suggests that a heat shield of some kind was shed off from it, and in turn is much larger in size when launched.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

In the end, the actual length of the Enterprise is immaterial. What matters is that the movie is good, and it seems like it delivers on that respect, at least.
.

They must be doing something right with the movie as evidenced by the boxoffice figures. 155 million dollars as of yesterday. So far the movie is sliding into 3rd place when the figures are adjusted for inflation, edging out Star Trek: The Search for Spock. Next up: The Voyager Home at $209 million. But it might be tough to get to the number one money maker in the franchise so far: ST:TMP at $240 million. Still, I think ST XI has a good shot at it.
-Mike

[ILikeDeathNote]

But it might be tough to get to the number one money maker in the franchise so far: ST:TMP at $240 million.

lol the highest grossing Star Trek movie is also one of the most sorry

[Jedi Master Spock]

But it might be tough to get to the number one money maker in the franchise so far: ST:TMP at $240 million.

lol the highest grossing Star Trek movie is also one of the most sorry

Personally, I don't think TMP was so bad.

[GStone]

All you have to do is fast forward past the enterprise exterior shot mini-movie. The idea of taking something as big as kinglon battlecruisers and digitizing them is kinda cool. My guess is that it's some kind of subatomic particle separation and implantation into another medium, but still keeping it ordered to reassemble it, if wanted. Kinda like an ultra advanced transporter that creates an alloy thing.