What If...

[Praeothmin]

The Defiant class starships have actually proven that they do have a rather decent staying power when it comes to mission endurance. The Valiant, for instance, was supposed to spend three months circumnavigating the Federation. It wound up having to make repairs on it's own with only a crew of cadets, and it traveled for months without support while tracking down the prototype Dominion battleship.

There's a big difference between a few months and a few years.
Yes, the Defiant has proven its "short-term" staying power, but we're talking about a long-term issue here.

While I have a massive soft spot for the Nebula class (I always wanted a show with one as the lead ship), it never really showed off that it was very powerful, IMHO.

Well, considering it has been designed from a GCS, at the same time, it should have the same power.
Same shields, same weapons, etc...
Are you saying an Intrepid is almost as powerful as a GCS?
I very much doubt that.

I've always been under the impression the Intrepid was nothing more then a Technologically advanced scout ship.
Fast, tough for it's size, with teeth, but while we could compare the Intrepid to a cheetah, the Nebula or GCS could be compared to bears.
Do you think a cheetah's a match for a bear? :)

but one that packs a mean punch (and can take one - they where shot at by just about everything and mostly came through in one piece even when the ships they fought where supposedly more powerful).

But how mean?
Even a house cat can hurt you with it's sharp teeth and claws, but to tell you the truth, I much prefer to be attacked by one then, say, a German Sheperd.
Yes, Voyager's advanced technologically, but while the Nebula's role was one of exploration as well as combat, Voyager's always seemed like one of scouting, reconnaissance.

A Nebula, with it's greater mass, would have been able to take even more of a pounding before critical systems were hit.
We've seen a Neb get attacked by the Prometheus, and it seemed to take the punishment well for a ship being bombarded by three Type-XII Phasers at the same time...

Plus, unlike both the Nebula and the Galaxy it had a few tricks that made traversing the Delta quadrant much easier: it had technology to regenerate Dilithium crystals build in, it had transporters that it could use through it's own shields (and seemed more stable in general), it never needed those weird baryon sweeps that the Galaxy (and hence, the Nebula probably as well) needed every five years or so and it has a much higher top speed than any of the other ships. It also seems to be much more maneuverable and it could land on a planet for repairs and the like, which a Nebula is not known to be able to do.

You are talking about caracteristics ten years old.
the Baryon sweeps happened almost ten years before Voyager.
Who says it was still needed after that?
We saw GCS refits for the Dominion War, and those ships seemed a lot more maneuverable then the E-D when it first appeared.
So we know that the were some refits done on the GCS, so there were probably done on the Nebula as well.

"Voyager is equipped with Mark 10 torpedoes, which where not in service when the missile launched. They may just punch through".

That doesn't mean all ships are not equipped with those new torpedoes.
I doubt they need a "nerwer" launcher, unlike QTs.

Thus a substitute ship might actually be slower and worse off than the Intrepid would.

Well, perhaps for the Nebula, but both the Sovereign and the Defiant have proven themselves very resilient, so I doubt they would be more damaged.
And with greater ressources, and greater repair facilities onboard, they should be well-off.

Never said it was.

I never said you did... :)
Seriously, I was reacting to your comment about the older weapons and shields of the Nebula.

Voyager's canon established they can beam through shields. And no, they didn't do it once by accident, they did so on numerous occasions across seasons. Likewise, STTNG established that Galaxy-class cruisers needed a Baryon sweep for maintenance every now and then. Like it or not, these are parts of canon.

And as I stated earlier, the TNG extablished canon happened 10 years earlier then Voyager, so we have no idea if it is still true at the time of Voyager's trip to the Delta quadrant.
Refits throughout the years could have made the sweeps unnecessary in Voyager's time.

[Roondar]

I've never heard of this stuff about Voyager beaming through shields all of the time. Got a list?

* Caretaker: Janeway & Tuvok get beamed to and from the array while Voyager is battling the Kazon. Shields are definitely up.

* Prototype: Torres gets beamed aboard a shuttle. Shields where up only seconds earlier and no mention is made of them being lowered.

* Future's End: Voyager and a Shutllecraft beam a rather unwilling fellow aboard. Both the shuttle and Voyager had their shields operational at the time.

* Alter Ego: Tuvok is beamed from Voyager while it's shields are up.

* Unity: (this one is uncertain) An away team is beamed to a Borg cube while the shields are probably still up.

* Favourite Son: Voyager beams up Harry Kim while shields are up

* Scorpion: Voyager attempts to beam up Janeway while it's shields are still up, only to be blocked by the Borg.

* The Raven: After changing transporter modulation Tuvok is beamed through the shields (Seven had altered them) of a shuttle.

* Mortal Coil: A shuttle beams aboard a small quantity of Protomatter with its shields up.

* Prey: (uncertain) The species 8472 creature was beamed over from Voyager to the Hirogen ship in the middle of a firefight, however shields may have been disabled by now.

* Demon: Voyager beams aboard deuterium (plus some unwanted gas) up from a planet while its shields are up. The transport was partially unsuccessful.

* Scorpion: Voyager beams a photon torpedo aboard a Borg ship while its shields are up.

There are more examples I'm sure, this is not a full list.

[Roondar]

While I have a massive soft spot for the Nebula class (I always wanted a show with one as the lead ship), it never really showed off that it was very powerful, IMHO.

Well, considering it has been designed from a GCS, at the same time, it should have the same power.
Same shields, same weapons, etc...
Are you saying an Intrepid is almost as powerful as a GCS?
I very much doubt that.

I'm not saying that, I'm saying that an Intrepid is relatively powerful for it's size. And just for the record, I don't feel a Nebula is equal to a Galaxy in weapons/shields.

I've always been under the impression the Intrepid was nothing more then a Technologically advanced scout ship.
Fast, tough for it's size, with teeth, but while we could compare the Intrepid to a cheetah, the Nebula or GCS could be compared to bears.
Do you think a cheetah's a match for a bear? :)

I'm not sure, the Intrepid seems to have an awful lot of firepower (as well as being far to big) for a scouting role. Now, the Nebula and Galaxy are bigger obviously and fullfill different roles.

but one that packs a mean punch (and can take one - they where shot at by just about everything and mostly came through in one piece even when the ships they fought where supposedly more powerful).

But how mean?
Even a house cat can hurt you with it's sharp teeth and claws, but to tell you the truth, I much prefer to be attacked by one then, say, a German Sheperd.
Yes, Voyager's advanced technologically, but while the Nebula's role was one of exploration as well as combat, Voyager's always seemed like one of scouting, reconnaissance.

A Nebula, with it's greater mass, would have been able to take even more of a pounding before critical systems were hit.
We've seen a Neb get attacked by the Prometheus, and it seemed to take the punishment well for a ship being bombarded by three Type-XII Phasers at the same time...

Well, there is that time that Voyager was attacked by a ludicrously overpowered ship with something like 20 phaser banks... And it held up pretty darned well for such a small ship, to give a counterexample ;)

Besides, this cat carries the same photon torpedoes that sheppard has and can fire them at comparable rates (or to make the analogy complete: it has the same teeth :P).

Plus, unlike both the Nebula and the Galaxy it had a few tricks that made traversing the Delta quadrant much easier: it had technology to regenerate Dilithium crystals build in, it had transporters that it could use through it's own shields (and seemed more stable in general), it never needed those weird baryon sweeps that the Galaxy (and hence, the Nebula probably as well) needed every five years or so and it has a much higher top speed than any of the other ships. It also seems to be much more maneuverable and it could land on a planet for repairs and the like, which a Nebula is not known to be able to do.

You are talking about caracteristics ten years old.
the Baryon sweeps happened almost ten years before Voyager.
Who says it was still needed after that?
We saw GCS refits for the Dominion War, and those ships seemed a lot more maneuverable then the E-D when it first appeared.
So we know that the were some refits done on the GCS, so there were probably done on the Nebula as well.

I won't despute refits. But Voyager is clearly more maneuverable, can land on planets and has a higher top speed. Baryon sweeps or no baryon sweeps.

Lets just say I'm not so sure that replacing the Intrepid ship with a bigger one will automagically make their journey that much easier. Combat will be easier, but Voyager already pretty much tore the place apart as it was.

And we can't be certain about fuel requirments or refuelling requirements so we can't really argue that Nebula's/Galaxies are better of in these departments.

Besides, bigger and scarier probably also means the locals will be much more aggresive, if only out of fear.

[Praeothmin]

I'm not saying that, I'm saying that an Intrepid is relatively powerful for it's size.

And I agree, I just don't think it's that close in power to a Nebula.

And just for the record, I don't feel a Nebula is equal to a Galaxy in weapons/shields.

Why not?
They both have similar designs, were built at the same time using the same technology, the only difference is the Nebula doesn't have the neck section the GCS has, but it has all the other systems.

I'm not sure, the Intrepid seems to have an awful lot of firepower (as well as being far to big) for a scouting role.

Scouts should have the capability to defend themselves too.
As you pointed out, it's very fast and maneuverable, pretty tough for its size, and can deliver a good one-two punch, all caracteristics that enable it to perform admirably well in the scout role.

Besides, this cat carries the same photon torpedoes that sheppard has and can fire them at comparable rates (or to make the analogy complete: it has the same teeth :P).

But it has less teeth... ;)
And I'm not sure the Phasers on the Intrepid are as powerful as those of a Nebula.
Do we have canon statement that says they're Type-X as well?

Besides, bigger and scarier probably also means the locals will be much more aggresive, if only out of fear.

Or it will keep them calm and quiet, for fear of getting their arse kicked...
Also, do not forget all this discussion about advances we had only applied to the Nebula.
All the advantages you mentioned, except for the planetary landing, are shared by the Sovereign, in an even more powerful package, plus with QTs.

[GStone]

1) Who is Sheppard?

2) I don't consider the baryon sweep to have been a one trick pony. I can see stray subatomic particles and molecules getting mashed up against/lodged in with the hull, especialy since they're passing through areas where space is warped and there are at times high energy explosions going off. Repairs (in or outside atmo) open up the ship to things that might cause problems later on, depending on the particle/molecule involved. How many different kinds of energy are there in trek? I'd bet you that a good deal of them are artificially generated. Who know what's floating around out there. You don't hear that often "Tony, shut that thing off before the fields get lodged in a starship's hull in orbit". Artificially generated energies with god knows what kind of functions flying around all over the place. I doubt most of them are gonna react to hulls with the same effect as soap bubbles.

There is also structural integrity fields, which might cause some type of field attraction, since they're designed to help keep the stuff of the hull together and reinforce it. Another possible explanation with Voyager is the baryon sweeps could have been transformed into a smaller version that's either part of a robot or tied into the systems some how. There could be a mini hand held one for touch up when there's a faulty AI.


3) Why would mass be a factor in speed/endurance? They're just warping space around them. Shouldn't it be a problem with overall volume and how space is warped that are the main concerns? Given how space is warped, a Connie is more efficient than something cube shaped. However, the borg are the borg. Even if you rated their engines as equal to the Feds, those fuckers are massive and probably have enough engines to make up the difference, so cubes are acceptable. The deflector's main concern would be with how space is warped vs the shape/volume of the ship, right? It's worried about the incoming 'energy attacks' from the travel. If that's taken care of, mass shouldn't be an issue, right? Or have I forgotten a piece of dialogue.

[Roondar]

I'm not saying that, I'm saying that an Intrepid is relatively powerful for it's size.

And I agree, I just don't think it's that close in power to a Nebula.

To be fair I've not seen a great deal of footage involving Nebula's in combat. I could be underestimating them. And you could be overestimating them ;)

And just for the record, I don't feel a Nebula is equal to a Galaxy in weapons/shields.

Why not?
They both have similar designs, were built at the same time using the same technology, the only difference is the Nebula doesn't have the neck section the GCS has, but it has all the other systems.

Well, for starters one would have to wonder why we even have Galaxies if they are equal. Another reason is that as far as I can tell Galaxies are seen to last longer in the fleet engagements in DS9. But that is from memory which means it could be flawed.

I'm not sure, the Intrepid seems to have an awful lot of firepower (as well as being far to big) for a scouting role.

Scouts should have the capability to defend themselves too.
As you pointed out, it's very fast and maneuverable, pretty tough for its size, and can deliver a good one-two punch, all caracteristics that enable it to perform admirably well in the scout role.

True, but it could also perform admirably well in the bigger-than-scout, smaller-than-battleship role IMHO.

Besides, this cat carries the same photon torpedoes that sheppard has and can fire them at comparable rates (or to make the analogy complete: it has the same teeth :P).

But it has less teeth... ;)
And I'm not sure the Phasers on the Intrepid are as powerful as those of a Nebula.
Do we have canon statement that says they're Type-X as well?

Your enemy having less total ammo is unlikely to be of your immediate concern when you are faced with a craft that carries enough to incinerate you just as quickly tho ;)

As to phaser types, we have no canon statement on any Nebula armanents IIRC so we do not actually know that they have Type-X phasers. And no, as far as I know Voyagers Phasers where not identified.

Besides, bigger and scarier probably also means the locals will be much more aggresive, if only out of fear.

Or it will keep them calm and quiet, for fear of getting their arse kicked...
Also, do not forget all this discussion about advances we had only applied to the Nebula.

Both these reactions are possible, but you have to admit that a bigger ship would make people forming alliances to get rid of it more likely than a smaller ship.

All the advantages you mentioned, except for the planetary landing, are shared by the Sovereign, in an even more powerful package, plus with QTs.

The Intrepid is clearly more maneuverable than the Sovereign. Top speed is hard to say as the Sovereigns top speed was never named on screen, but since Voyager made a big deal of being the fastest and no one aboard the Enterprise-E claimed to be the fastest I'm leaning towards Voyager having the higher top speed.

[Praeothmin]

To be fair I've not seen a great deal of footage involving Nebula's in combat. I could be underestimating them. And you could be overestimating them ;)

Agreed... :)
But I'm more inclined towards you underestimating them... ;)

Well, for starters one would have to wonder why we even have Galaxies if they are equal. Another reason is that as far as I can tell Galaxies are seen to last longer in the fleet engagements in DS9. But that is from memory which means it could be flawed.

First, the Galaxy has a bit more volume, so it means families, and better diplomatic quarters, or more labs.
There could be a lot of reasons why we do have GCs if they're equal.

As for the engagements, we haven't seen that many Nebulas in the DS9 battles, at least not in action like the GCs, so it is hard to accurately assess their prowess.
We have to estmate based on their design, which are cloesely related to the GCs: same engineering hull, same saucer, same nacelles, same phaser emitters and PT launchers, etc...
To me, that is a very good indication that they are a lot more similar then different.

True, but it could also perform admirably well in the bigger-than-scout, smaller-than-battleship role IMHO.

And even better in the purely-scout-with-nice-teeth in mine... :)

As to phaser types, we have no canon statement on any Nebula armanents IIRC so we do not actually know that they have Type-X phasers. And no, as far as I know Voyagers Phasers where not identified.

Correct, but as far as I know, we have cannon statement that the GC has Type-X Phasers, and as I stated earlier, they were built and designed pretty much at the same time with essentially the same frame.

As for Voyager, we have no statement at all, indeed...

The Intrepid is clearly more maneuverable than the Sovereign.

Not too sure about that one.
I don't remember Voyager doing any maneuvers that the E-E couldn't do.
Do you have images or video links?

Top speed is hard to say as the Sovereigns top speed was never named on screen, but since Voyager made a big deal of being the fastest and no one aboard the Enterprise-E claimed to be the fastest I'm leaning towards Voyager having the higher top speed.

Again, that statement was made before we saw the E-E come into existence, so while it may have been true when Voyager first came out, it could have changed when the big E came out.

[ILikeDeathNote]

Right. So the ooh, hundreds of times they did that are all writer errors.

Especially since they just didn't seem bothered anymore about their shields blocking their transports. Like say on the Enterprise-E where they too didn't worry about beaming through their own shields anymore.

But of course, that is just 'writer error' and hence we have to forget about it. And of course, when we have an entire episode detailing maintenance we can forget about that as well when it's inconvenient.

I'm sorry but it doesn't work that way.

Actually it does work that way - it's a consequence of this being a TV show and not real life.

The fact of the matter is that Voyager was a TV show that ran for six and a half seasons with nearly 200 episodes - there's lots of room in there for gaffs especially when, in the bigger picture, people just don't care. Berman and Braga's apathy towards consistency and canon is infamous, to the point where that alone should be enough evidence. Including B&B, Voyager was helmed by no less than five producers, of which only Berman held the title throughout the entire series' run - Piller resigned at the end of Season 2, Taylor left by '98, Braga was an executive producer for only a short time, 1998-2000, and Biller a shorter time than even that, from 2000 to the series' end. It's also worth noting that the two to bail first, Piller and Taylor, co-created Voyager with Berman.

Yes, such a large body of executive producers with that much turn-around time is bound to create some inconsistency and differing opinion towards how the internal mechanics of the show works.

That's not even considering the number of other producers, writers, teleplay writers, and directors, all of which could differ from episode to episode. Mike Wong and Chuck Sonnenberg have talked about extensively how gaffs and apathy are created when you have such a large pool of creative input, many of which have only a small pool of background knowledge in Star Trek lore.

By the way, the first season of Voyager, that half-season of the six and a half-seasons, had nearly 30 different writers and teleplay writers involved, including Berman, Branon, Piller and Talyor who all contributed to scripts or teleplays. A few of which collaborated on the same script or teleplay. Don't believe me? Free feel to count for yourself.

Voyager's canon established they can beam through shields. And no, they didn't do it once by accident, they did so on numerous occasions across seasons. Likewise, STTNG established that Galaxy-class cruisers needed a Baryon sweep for maintenance every now and then. Like it or not, these are parts of canon.

Like it or not, it's still a writing/production gaff; just because they do it multiple times doesn't mean its "correct" or even "canon." It only takes one contradictory incident to throw the whole canon status of "beaming through shields" into question.

And there are quite a few contradictory incidents. According to this FAQ of the newsgroup rec.arts.startrek.tech, we have contradictory evidence of whether or not a cloaked ship can beam people while cloaked. "Benjamin Chee" points out that it may be possible for someone to be beamed out of a ship with shields up, yet in Voyager we have multiple cases where someone has been beamed into a ship with shields ("Prototype," just to bring up one specific episode). We even have an admission from Mike Okuda stating that they didn't even keep track of cloaking incidents; it's no real stretch to extend it to whether or not shields were raised during transport. There's even a common sense statement regarding that shields which allow you to beam things past them would make lousy shields and defeat the purpose of having shields in the first place.

As for the Baryon Sweep, once again we only need one contradictory piece of evidence to call into question its canon status. We've never seen Voyager even mention a baryon sweep, thus our piece of contradictory evidence. But once again, to be fair, we can fairly assume that Voyager simply used an alien facility off-screen, assuming baryon sweeps are necessary for all warp-capable starships.

And this of course ignores the "realism problem" as already quoted from Mike Wong.

So, deal with it and don't try to rewrite the show to prove something.

I'm not. If anything it seems as if you have a problem accepting the fact that mistakes in the show exist, and that these mistakes are oft-repeated.

[Mike DiCenso]

The Defiant class starships have actually proven that they do have a rather decent staying power when it comes to mission endurance. The Valiant, for instance, was supposed to spend three months circumnavigating the Federation. It wound up having to make repairs on it's own with only a crew of cadets, and it traveled for months without support while tracking down the prototype Dominion battleship.

There's a big difference between a few months and a few years.
Yes, the Defiant has proven its "short-term" staying power, but we're talking about a long-term issue here.

Yes there is, but it does show that an improperly equipped and crewed Defiant class starship can las for at least that amount of time without support, which is pretty amazing in it's own right. Now put a more experianced and capable crew on one of those ships, and they might likely be able to jury-rig more staying power out of the ship. Where a Defiant class starship really runs into trouble is becaue it is such a relatively small and spartan ship, it does not have the crew size, nor the more luxurious accomadations to make a crew more comfortable over a longer duration that an Intrepid has.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

Plus, unlike both the Nebula and the Galaxy it had a few tricks that made traversing the Delta quadrant much easier: it had technology to regenerate Dilithium crystals build in, it had transporters that it could use through it's own shields (and seemed more stable in general), it never needed those weird baryon sweeps that the Galaxy (and hence, the Nebula probably as well) needed every five years or so and it has a much higher top speed than any of the other ships. It also seems to be much more maneuverable and it could land on a planet for repairs and the like, which a Nebula is not known to be able to do.

As per "Relics", the E-D also could recomposite the dilithium crystals inside the articulation frame as well. Most of the rest of what you are describing, such as beaming through shields are tricks that the crew themselves jury-rigged up, and so as long as the crew stays the same, many of the same solutions will be applied as well to those particular situations that required them.
-Mike

Beaming through their own shields is not jury-rigged. It's just something that 'sovereign era ships' such as Voyager can do and earlier ships well, can not. Nor is the rest (better maneuvering, higher top speed, landing capability) jury-rigged.

Assuming you're correct, Roondar, the E-D in "Relics" also displayed an ability to beam through shields; when Scotty and Geordi are beamed off the Jenolen, it still had it's shields up, and could not let them go down or the Dyson Sphere space doors would have closed before the E-D could get out.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

On the subject of baryon sweeps, the E-D's first actual sweep occurred in the sixth season, and during the opening scenes of the episode, the crew acted as if this were the very first time such a thing were being done to the ship, so I would say that Voyager could probably have done without one for years as well, and the crew may have put off the recommended schedule for such a sweep since they would have had few options for putting into a safe facility, such as the Markonian outpost seen in "Survial Instinct", or as has been suggested, sometime in season 6 or 7 the ship got one at one of the few friendly ports of call off-screen.
-Mike

[Roondar]

Right. So the ooh, hundreds of times they did that are all writer errors.

Especially since they just didn't seem bothered anymore about their shields blocking their transports. Like say on the Enterprise-E where they too didn't worry about beaming through their own shields anymore.

But of course, that is just 'writer error' and hence we have to forget about it. And of course, when we have an entire episode detailing maintenance we can forget about that as well when it's inconvenient.

I'm sorry but it doesn't work that way.

Actually it does work that way - it's a consequence of this being a TV show and not real life.

The fact of the matter is that Voyager was a TV show that ran for six and a half seasons with nearly 200 episodes - there's lots of room in there for gaffs especially when, in the bigger picture, people just don't care. Berman and Braga's apathy towards consistency and canon is infamous, to the point where that alone should be enough evidence. Including B&B, Voyager was helmed by no less than five producers, of which only Berman held the title throughout the entire series' run - Piller resigned at the end of Season 2, Taylor left by '98, Braga was an executive producer for only a short time, 1998-2000, and Biller a shorter time than even that, from 2000 to the series' end. It's also worth noting that the two to bail first, Piller and Taylor, co-created Voyager with Berman.

Yes, such a large body of executive producers with that much turn-around time is bound to create some inconsistency and differing opinion towards how the internal mechanics of the show works.

That's not even considering the number of other producers, writers, teleplay writers, and directors, all of which could differ from episode to episode. Mike Wong and Chuck Sonnenberg have talked about extensively how gaffs and apathy are created when you have such a large pool of creative input, many of which have only a small pool of background knowledge in Star Trek lore.

By the way, the first season of Voyager, that half-season of the six and a half-seasons, had nearly 30 different writers and teleplay writers involved, including Berman, Branon, Piller and Talyor who all contributed to scripts or teleplays. A few of which collaborated on the same script or teleplay. Don't believe me? Free feel to count for yourself.

Voyager's canon established they can beam through shields. And no, they didn't do it once by accident, they did so on numerous occasions across seasons. Likewise, STTNG established that Galaxy-class cruisers needed a Baryon sweep for maintenance every now and then. Like it or not, these are parts of canon.

Like it or not, it's still a writing/production gaff; just because they do it multiple times doesn't mean its "correct" or even "canon." It only takes one contradictory incident to throw the whole canon status of "beaming through shields" into question.

And there are quite a few contradictory incidents. According to this FAQ of the newsgroup rec.arts.startrek.tech, we have contradictory evidence of whether or not a cloaked ship can beam people while cloaked. "Benjamin Chee" points out that it may be possible for someone to be beamed out of a ship with shields up, yet in Voyager we have multiple cases where someone has been beamed into a ship with shields ("Prototype," just to bring up one specific episode). We even have an admission from Mike Okuda stating that they didn't even keep track of cloaking incidents; it's no real stretch to extend it to whether or not shields were raised during transport. There's even a common sense statement regarding that shields which allow you to beam things past them would make lousy shields and defeat the purpose of having shields in the first place.

As for the Baryon Sweep, once again we only need one contradictory piece of evidence to call into question its canon status. We've never seen Voyager even mention a baryon sweep, thus our piece of contradictory evidence. But once again, to be fair, we can fairly assume that Voyager simply used an alien facility off-screen, assuming baryon sweeps are necessary for all warp-capable starships.

And this of course ignores the "realism problem" as already quoted from Mike Wong.

So, deal with it and don't try to rewrite the show to prove something.

I'm not. If anything it seems as if you have a problem accepting the fact that mistakes in the show exist, and that these mistakes are oft-repeated.

To sum up your post:

"I don't like that they can do that so I'm gonna say they can't just because I can. To hell with what we see on screen, it's my decision not the writers"

And my reaction: suit yourself, but you wanting something doesn't make it so. I gave you a rather extensive list, which included several examples where shields where explicitly raised mere moments before transport and at least one where having the shields down during transport would have been 'suicide'.

[Roondar]

As per "Relics", the E-D also could recomposite the dilithium crystals inside the articulation frame as well. Most of the rest of what you are describing, such as beaming through shields are tricks that the crew themselves jury-rigged up, and so as long as the crew stays the same, many of the same solutions will be applied as well to those particular situations that required them.
-Mike

Beaming through their own shields is not jury-rigged. It's just something that 'sovereign era ships' such as Voyager can do and earlier ships well, can not. Nor is the rest (better maneuvering, higher top speed, landing capability) jury-rigged.

Assuming you're correct, Roondar, the E-D in "Relics" also displayed an ability to beam through shields; when Scotty and Geordi are beamed off the Jenolen, it still had it's shields up, and could not let them go down or the Dyson Sphere space doors would have closed before the E-D could get out.
-Mike

It's quite possible that this trick was later incorporated in the newer transporter system Voyager used. Whether or not older transporters where upgraded is debatable of course.

[Roondar]

To be fair I've not seen a great deal of footage involving Nebula's in combat. I could be underestimating them. And you could be overestimating them ;)

Agreed... :)
But I'm more inclined towards you underestimating them... ;)

Which I'll stop doing as soon as you start giving me canon evidence regarding their strength ;)

Well, for starters one would have to wonder why we even have Galaxies if they are equal. Another reason is that as far as I can tell Galaxies are seen to last longer in the fleet engagements in DS9. But that is from memory which means it could be flawed.

First, the Galaxy has a bit more volume, so it means families, and better diplomatic quarters, or more labs.
There could be a lot of reasons why we do have GCs if they're equal.

As for the engagements, we haven't seen that many Nebulas in the DS9 battles, at least not in action like the GCs, so it is hard to accurately assess their prowess.
We have to estmate based on their design, which are cloesely related to the GCs: same engineering hull, same saucer, same nacelles, same phaser emitters and PT launchers, etc...
To me, that is a very good indication that they are a lot more similar then different.

They look the same. That doesn't mean they are the same. Case in point: The Enterprise Nil and the Enterprise-A looked very much the same in the Startrek movies, yet the E-A was the more powerful ship.

Again, saying they have the same weapons, shields, etc is not the same as having proof. And no, merely looking the same is not enough.

Want a real-world example why what you are doing here is wrong?

Take a look at any 'GT' car. Looks quite like the non-GT model (everything is in the same place as well!), but they are completely different where it counts - different engine, different brakes, different gear box, different electronics, different steering.

In fact, you can't even make your non-GT model perform the same as the GT model because they are just that different. Even though they look very much alike.

So no, equal looks does not mean equal performance.

True, but it could also perform admirably well in the bigger-than-scout, smaller-than-battleship role IMHO.

And even better in the purely-scout-with-nice-teeth in mine... :)

I disagree. A scout is a small, light weight vehicle designed to get reconnaissance. Voyager has an altogether too large crew and far to many 'extras' for that role. It would fit the role of a midsized combat vessel, such as a frigate, much better.

As to phaser types, we have no canon statement on any Nebula armanents IIRC so we do not actually know that they have Type-X phasers. And no, as far as I know Voyagers Phasers where not identified.

Correct, but as far as I know, we have cannon statement that the GC has Type-X Phasers, and as I stated earlier, they were built and designed pretty much at the same time with essentially the same frame.

As for Voyager, we have no statement at all, indeed...

In other words, we have no actual statements regarding Nebula's combat abilities at all apart from your speculation.

The Intrepid is clearly more maneuverable than the Sovereign.

Not too sure about that one.
I don't remember Voyager doing any maneuvers that the E-E couldn't do.
Do you have images or video links?

Well, I've never seen the E-E do anything really nifty in space. I do recall Voyager taking some evasive actions in combat which where quite good. I'll see if I can find some visuals to back this up.

Top speed is hard to say as the Sovereigns top speed was never named on screen, but since Voyager made a big deal of being the fastest and no one aboard the Enterprise-E claimed to be the fastest I'm leaning towards Voyager having the higher top speed.

Again, that statement was made before we saw the E-E come into existence, so while it may have been true when Voyager first came out, it could have changed when the big E came out.

But since no canon info about this is available, assuming the E-E to be faster is just speculation. Especially as the people on board the Enterprise E are exactly the kind who would comment on being the fastest ship in the fleet.

[Praeothmin]

Which I'll stop doing as soon as you start giving me canon evidence regarding their strength

Hum, don't wait for too long, I'm not sure I can find such evidence... :)

Case in point: The Enterprise Nil and the Enterprise-A looked very much the same in the Startrek movies, yet the E-A was the more powerful ship.

Mmmh, are you talking about the E-Nil from TMP, or the E-Nil from TOS?
And if you are talking about the E-Nil from TMP, then please, as you so nicely asked, find canon proof that the E-A is indeed more powerful then the E-Nil from TMP... :)
I don't remember there being any.

Want a real-world example why what you are doing here is wrong?

Take a look at any 'GT' car. Looks quite like the non-GT model (everything is in the same place as well!), but they are completely different where it counts - different engine, different brakes, different gear box, different electronics, different steering.

Except all the "souped-up" GT cars usually have
external visual differences as well, such as mags where the non-GT doesn't have them, a rear spoiler, etc...
The difference between the GCS and the Nebual is more like, say, taking a Ford F-150 King cab, and simply taking out the King cab to get a more compact F-150, which, apart from the difference in cabin size, is identical in all other matters.
As I said, the Nebula saucer is an exact replica of the GCs one, the nacelles are the exact same size and shape, Phaser strips are also identical, as is the engineering section, aside from the neck absence.

You are right when you say we have no canon evidence that the GCS and the Nebual are similar in strength, or that they have been built using the same technology, but we do have very strong circumstancial evidence that it is so.
This is why, while we do not have canon statement of this, I believe it is, because of the circumstancial evidence.
Although I have no issue with you believing otherwise... :)

Voyager has an altogether too large crew and far to many 'extras' for that role. It would fit the role of a midsized combat vessel, such as a frigate, much better.

You're right, although it does fit the role of a Light Cruiser more then that of a Frigate.

In other words, we have no actual statements regarding Nebula's combat abilities at all apart from your speculation

Yup... :)
At least, it's more then we have for Voyager, because my "speculation" is based upon very strong circumstancial evidence...

Well, I've never seen the E-E do anything really nifty in space.

Neither did Voyager, as far as I remember...

But since no canon info about this is available, assuming the E-E to be faster is just speculation. Especially as the people on board the Enterprise E are exactly the kind who would comment on being the fastest ship in the fleet.

So is assuming that Voyager is the fatest ship in the fleet.
The only reason we've actually obtained Voyager's info was because Tom Paris was trying to impress the lady who was ferrying him to the ship.
We've never had anything on the E-E except the canon statement from Geordi saying the the E-E was:
"The most advanced ship in the Fleet".
That statement, though open to interpretation, does clearly state that the Sovereign-class ship is more advanced then an Intrepid.
And since it does not have the folding nacelles, it's a strong indication that even it's Warp Engines have been upgraded.
So again, while no canon statement has been made to the fact that the E-E is faster then Voyager, we have string circumstancial evidence that it is, at the very least, its equal in speed...