Jedi Master Spock wrote:Short of physically burying you in college algebra texts - which is more money than I'd care to spend on your education - what do you want?
Evidence that comparing logarithmic values is mathematically unsound?
Jedi Master Spock wrote:log(A)/log(B) does not convert back to a linear quantity. It converts back to a root.
log(10)/log(1000)=1/3
log^-1(1)/log^-1(3)=10/1000
See? Very simple.
Jedi Master Spock wrote:We explicitly have power. Not "logarithmic scale X," power.
Yes whose quantity may have been expressed in a non linear value.
Jedi Master Spock wrote:The difference between a car accident that kills 3 people and a building collapse that kills a thousand. That difference.
You evaded the point: that you can indeed compare
logarithmic values.
Jedi Master Spock wrote:All completely whacked out and arbitrary.
And even the first shot is more than 1e13 joules. So.
As opposed to your completely undefined chain reaction theory which are not arbitrary? Mine is at least perfectly mathematically defined.
And the formula example I gave was:
Power_log=log(Power_lin-10^25)
Put 1 for Power_log and you'll see you don't end up with 10^13 joules.
Jedi Master Spock wrote:With 1e13 logarithmic base and simplification disallowed, you're defining "one third" to mean "1e-26 as much."
Again a strawman. I am saying that enumerator and denominator of the fraction are
logarithmic values of power as opposed to linear. The definition of a fraction is completely beside the point.
Jedi Master Spock wrote:You have redefined "one third." You have redefined "power." These are simple facts that you have no grounds to dispute.
No I did not. Taking a logarithmic value of power is not "redefining" power nor is assuming that enumerator and denominator are logarithmic values redefining a fraction.
Jedi Master Spock wrote:On the back? Crushing the Death Star like an egg sandwiched between two pistols, in other words?
Unless it's structure can take which it obviously can.
Praeothmin wrote:Interesting how you accept that every “human†in SW speak English, that almost all the races encountered are humanoid, that when they say “injured†they mean the same thing we do.
That notions like “power†and “energy†are used in the same way as we do, even when talking about “strange and exotic†reactions.
How you accept that to them, the attraction planets exert on humans is also called “gravityâ€, since they use “antigrav†devices to fight it.
Strange how you accept the notion that every single reference to “human†concepts made by SW means exactly the same thing it means to us “earthlings†(even when describing the most exotic effects using decidedly human words), but that the instant you cannot, nay, will not, accept one such aspect, that you try to find a new way for an otherwise very “human†and very scientific concept to be interpreted…
What does this have to do with your insistence that my logarithmic scale must be found in real science books before you accept it and which is false? I don't dispute the usage of various scientific terms however no one in the novel specified they were using linear scale and since the effects don't correspond to 3 times greater power there must be some other explanation. Logarithmic scale explains it.
SailorSaturn13 wrote:It is an INFERIOR ONE. I said that all along. Changing physics is preferable to botching canon. It IS preferable to change physics if it means that canon can be understood in normal, rather than absurd, meaning.
You again presume to have the right to determine what is and is not normal or absurd. You don't.
SailorSaturn13 wrote:For someone to use such a scale the scale must exist very long, not being invented with a weapon.
Why? I just made up one example myself didn't I?
SailorSaturn13 wrote:I did not create that meaning. Likewise I did not define that 2*2=4. I just KNOW it because I've read books on physics. I also know people dealing with decibels. NO ONE OF THEM, IN NO CIRCUMSTANSES understood "One third of power" like you do.
That 2*2=4 is mathematically defined operation. That a fraction must always represent linear values of power is nowhere defined or written.
SailorSaturn13 wrote:Exactly. logarithmic value (if expressed in Watts) is a third. But the quote said "power", not "value" or "scale value". And power, as you concede, isn't.
I don't see how you can possibly fail to understand you can express any value in logarithmic scale. It doesn't matter what the unit is.
Sailor Saturn13 wrote:Prove it isn't. No one said reaction must be proportional to shot power.
I have a better explanation: the full power isn't that big, bacause Alderaan and Despaire are actually very small planets, both 100-120 km in diameter. Then the energy to shatter them is in the same ballpark as to liquify them.
I don't need to prove a negative. Familiarize yourself with burden of proof. Secondly your 100km-120km planetary diameter theory is not only ridiculous but still fails to explain why would 1/3 shot only damage the surface while 3 times stronger shot would destroy it.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Actually, it's up to you to prove that this happens.
But my job is rather easy, because while the atmospheric haze obviously lights up and gains several kilometers in thickness, it pretty much stops there. There's no ejecta to be seen on the other side of the planet, nor any matter flying away around that region of the crescent.
Actually no it is your job to prove it since we do know that Alderaan ultimately blows up and your claim is basis for your "exotic" theory. Again the "haze" does not "pretty much" stop anywhere but continues to expand.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Of course, you're not moved by the mere fact that the main fireball at the point of explosion isn't even blue itself, yet somehow there rest of the planet, clearly not under the same level of destruction (a much lower one), would yet be heated up to tens of thousands kelvins (approx)?
So what? The part facing us could've already started expanding well into the vacuum where it cooled down much faster. You need to remember that when such large energies are involved things move faster than even 24fps camera can capture.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Repeating the same point doesn't make it any better. You still make a fallacy by asking me the how it works from a physics pov while it's not required.
Any explanation would involve technobabble about exotic stuff, so there's no point going there.
Again, my claim is about probabilities and expected magnitude of effects, basically, not the peculiar physics behind the beam.
You understand the difference, right?
Oh, no, of course, it's been like six posts I've been talking to a wall.
It's impossible, as simple as that.
Again you concede defeat without even realizing it. You state your claims call them a theory, when challenged to explain that "theory" you fully admit you have absolutely no explanation thus it is not in fact a theory and then wonder why I don't accept it. There is nothing to accept unless you feel I should just take your claims at face value.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Probably for the same reason that it delivers many "details", and that a crater of that size would hardly be a detail.
You seem to be under the same delusion JMS is: namely that your opinions count as evidence. They don't.
Mr. Orgahn wrote:If I had to argue about crust drilling, I'd say NDF may have something to do there.
Which is a Star Trek phenomenon and has nothing to do with superlaser but then again I should not be surprised by your unsupported claims by now.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:It is ridiculously complicated for any military personnel in charge of the operation not carrying a Ph.D in superlaser physics.
All they need to know is 1/3-enough for any starship, 2/3 destroying a large asteroid, massive planetary disruption, 3/3-planet scattering.
Never mind that log,+ and = are hardly Ph.D material.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:The problem with your scale is that anything below 1.5/3 wouldn't be different, you'd still end with more than 10^25 joules, while the effects described above are much lower than that (Tenn's not even sure a low powered shot could vape a small sea).
My scale is an example. I never claimed it was perfect or that it was exactly what they would use. Secondly "above Star Destroyer" is still 10^25J. How big are those cities cited in Tenn's imagination? We know they have planet spanning ones.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Oops.
It's from the DS book:
DS book wrote:
His nephew, Hora Graneet, had been a navy spacer on the Imperial-class Star Destroyer Mark II class vessel, which had been selected for a shakedown cruise testing one of the improved prototype hypermatter reactors. Tenn didn't know the specifics of what had happened, and didn't have anything close to the math needed to understand it anyway. He knew that hypermatter existed only in hyperspace, that it was composed of tachyonic particles, and that charged tachyons, when constrained by the lower dimensions of realspace, produced near-limitless energy.
And the other quote:
DS book wrote:
It took no more than an instant. Tenn knew that the beam's total destructive power was much bigger than matter-energy conversion limited to realspace. At full charge, the hyper-matter reactor provided a superluminal "boost" that caused much of the planet's mass to be shifted immediately into hyperspace. As a result, Alderaan exploded into a fiery ball of eye-smiting light almost instantaneously, and a planar ring of energy-reflux - the "shadow" of a hyperspatial ripple - spread rapidly outward.
This settles it rather clearly.
Yes it does settle it in my favor.
Read your own quotes: hypermatter is indeed confined to hyperspace not real space and is composed of tachyonic particles.
Now this quote:
and that charged tachyons, when constrained by the lower dimensions of realspace
This makes it prefectly clear: hypermatter reactor constrains tachyonic hypermatter from hyperspace to real space thereby producing vast quantities of energy. Hence energy is not derived from real space matter-antimatter annihilation.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Oh, and you quantified said superluminal boost?
No you didn't, and no, you won't be able to. So saying that power levels are confirmed because an exotic phenomenon - requiring unknown amounts of power - happens, is perfectly absurd.
I have in fact quantified it using the example of an ISD below. Not to mention that prison planet was blown up without any hyperspace boost and that other sources like Inside the World: trilogy states that DS2's hyperreactor could generate energy equal to hundreds of supergiant stars.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:And you know, of course, how matter is accelerated beyond c, and you can calculate the amount of required energy?
Yes see below. Not to mention DS can blow up planets without the boost which is available at full power.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:So you have found a quote that states "jump to hyperspace", and not anything that is like "hyperspace jump"?
Could we see that?
What exactly is the difference?
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Oh sure. He's been evading SDs for his lifetime, he's been an imperial guy for some time as well, he's been making several comments about the Empire's abilities even in the films.
So prove that he's not reliable.
I did. Your refusal to accept evidence is your problem.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Bzzt. Wrong answer. It's just that you couldn't see where I was coming from. :)
I'm afraid you lost me.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:And as I said, you have surely properly identified the physics of hyperspace and mechanics of anything related to hyperdrives! :P
Consult burden of proof. If you claim you have a theory then you obviously must define your theory. Surely you must realize the comedy of the situation where you state you have a theory but it's so advance you can't actually define it.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Please read again. I merely noticed another bizarre effect.
And you of course think I'm going to believe that the amount of matter that would be kicked far enough of the planet to cool down would remain dense and packed enough above the point of impact to considerably mask it, nevermind matter expanding and, if again caught by the gravity, hardly going to fall back into place considering the turmoil underneath. But yes, your idea is that the explosion lifts off a sort of super heated plate of matter, and that this plate conveniently remains compressed, while it starts to cool down.
Any matter falling back into the atmosphere would be heated up again. DET stipulates that an energy already superior to the teraton range is deposited at a single spot. This amount of energy will take a hell of a time to cool down.
The only way for such a thing to happen would be to have most of the energy deposited into the core, with a minimal amount of bleedoff through the crust and the atmosphere. That way, the beam would kick a lot of matter up without heating it up too much, while somehow, the atmosphere would feed the expand wall of fire.
Define dense. I never stated it must be as dense as mud or anything. But even diffuse dust stretching over 1000km above the impact site will reduce the amount of light and contrast could make it appear dark. Furthermore why do you insist on continually strawmaning my points? Did I mention a "plate" of matter being lifted? No I simply stated that a portion of the surface would be vaporized and expelled into the orbit and beyond where it would cool off. Then of course there are the usual qualitative assertions: "hell of a time" to cool of. How long exactly is that?
Mr. Oragahn wrote:The reaction happens extremely fast, in real time.
I'm not seeing any quantifications of elapsed time there.
SpanishInquisitor wrote:As far as the *official* EU canon is concerned, I think this settles the issue: the superlaser was not a pure DET weapon (was exotic) , and Alderaan had no shields (or at least they were inactive) at the time of its destruction. I'm not aware that any other canon quote that contradicts this, feel free to prove me wrong. Tarkin quote about Alderaan "defenses" can be interpreted in various forms, but the DESB statement still prevails.
How exactly did you come to this conclusion? The quote states superlaser is actually neutrinos which then bypass the shields. But like any other particle neutrino must give it's energy to the target. So what exactly is "exotic" about it? The second part of the quote explicitly states a portion of the surface is vaporized and if heated enough it will expand with enough force to shatter the planet and even vaporize it like it did to Alderaan. This is exactly the "DET" mechanism and no exotic chain reactions in sight.